View Full Version : New Audiolab DAC...?
Hi All,
I've been away contracting, behind a restrictive firewall, and in digs without wi-fi, so I've been offline for a while, so hello to all again...:)
After 15 years of good service I'm looking to upgrade my old Audiolab 8000DAX, and now it would appear that I'm spoilt for choice... London buses and all that.
There are probably a lot of valid alternatives from other manufacturers, but for the sake of aesthetics I'd like to stick with Audiolab.
I have a CDM transport, which I only use very rarely, the bulk of my listening is currently via SB Receiver/8000 DAX/8000 Q/8000 SX/8000 P.
So I'm looking at a couple of alternatives the M-DAC, and the 8200DQ...
Has anyone here been able to compare the M-DAC/Q combination, with a DQ, if there's no appreciable difference then I'll go with the M-DAC, however if the DQ is a better option then I'm happy to spend the extra and sell my 8000 Q.
I also run my TT and AV through my 8000 Q, so I need analogue inputs, otherwise I'd go for the M-DAC on its own.
Cheers for any input :)
P.S. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year...Oh and happy Easter!!! ;)
Mr Westlake reckons the M-Dac is better.
Pop over to pfm where there are many threads about it.
technobear
08-04-2012, 17:15
Do you have a separate phono pre for your TT?
Do you have a separate phono pre for your TT?
Yes, so I'd be using it as now, into the back of one of the Q's (or DQ) analogue inputs...
I rarely use vinyl, but I don't want to loose the capability.:)
Mr Westlake reckons the M-Dac is better.
Pop over to pfm where there are many threads about it.
I had a look but couldn't see much RE a comparison with the DQ...perhaps I wasn't looking hard enough ;)
Reid Malenfant
08-04-2012, 17:30
Welcome back Will, good to see you about again fella :D Must admit I had kind of wondered where you'd gone to :scratch:
Can't help with the DAC, I'm just saying hello :cool:
technobear
08-04-2012, 17:37
My money would be on the 8200DQ beating the MDAC+8000Q. Best thing is to go to a dealer and see for yourself.
realysm42
08-04-2012, 17:41
As it stands, there are upgrades available for the cd player that will oust the dac but in the long run, the M-dac has three sets of upgardes that John reckons will push the M-dac back in front, if you go to Google and check out M-dac fist listen part V it should tell you what you need to know.
Welcome back Will, good to see you about again fella :D Must admit I had kind of wondered where you'd gone to :scratch:
Can't help with the DAC, I'm just saying hello :cool:
...Hi Mark, just had a few busy months but am keen to invest some of the proceeds...good to talk again :cool:
My money would be on the 8200DQ beating the MDAC+8000Q. Best thing is to go to a dealer and see for yourself.
Those were my thoughts too Chris, particularly as I might be able to take advantage of the digital Pre-Amp functionality for my normal source...I'm trying to line up a listen as we speak...;)
I'm just trying to confirm if they're the same quality DAC's...out of the box!
sq225917
08-04-2012, 19:03
Lots of bad advice here from peeps who haven't owned any of the kit or bothered to read the spec sheets. The DQ uses a lower quality output stage than the Mdac which uses the Cross output stage. The CDQ uses a lower quality psu arrangement with lower spec parts than the Mdac, they had issues with the Original transformer vendor for the CDQ and subsequently offered the new transformer and OLED display as an upgrade to owners of the CDQ. If you need analogue throughput today then the CDQ is the best option. If you can wait for John to make the Mdac PSU with analogue throughput option then that would be the highest quality option in the long run. You might be waiting six month for that tO materialise though.
The mdac is the best specced and most current design out of the three. Which you prefer, of you can tell them apart at all is another matter entirely.
technobear
08-04-2012, 19:19
Yes Simon, but the point is will the superiority of the MDAC (which is not huge - how could it be at this quality level?) survive passage through the 8000Q.
I use my CDQ in analogue pre-amp mode most of the time as the difference is not huge between analogue and digital. The Westlake pre-amp section is very good.
Lots of bad advice here from peeps who haven't owned any of the kit or bothered to read the spec sheets. The DQ uses a lower quality output stage than the Mdac which uses the Cross output stage. The CDQ uses a lower quality psu arrangement with lower spec parts than the Mdac, they had issues with the Original transformer vendor for the CDQ and subsequently offered the new transformer and OLED display as an upgrade to owners of the CDQ. If you need analogue throughput today then the CDQ is the best option. If you can wait for John to make the Mdac PSU with analogue throughput option then that would be the highest quality option in the long run. You might be waiting six month for that tO materialise though.
The mdac is the best specced and most current design out of the three. Which you prefer, of you can tell them apart at all is another matter entirely.
Cheers for the info Simon...
I've seen a couple of references to the mythical Q-Dac but not much information. Do you have any more info on specs? Will there be multiple analogue inputs?
It seems odd that they'd bring out 2 products competing in the same space, I.E. the Q-Dac and DQ would be functionally identical, if not physically, or sonically.
Given that my initial driver was to upgrade my DAC, and not specifically my pre-amp, I might have to ponder on this one...
As stated earlier, time for a listen, cheers for the input chaps :cool:
Please be aware that JW no longer works for Audiolab so future M Dac upgrades will be via his own company based in the Czech Republic.
Please be aware that JW no longer works for Audiolab so future M Dac upgrades will be via his own company based in the Czech Republic.
...mmmm doesn't that imply that the Q-Dac will not see the light of day, well not under an Audiolab banner anyway :scratch:
Yes Simon, but the point is will the superiority of the MDAC (which is not huge - how could it be at this quality level?) survive passage through the 8000Q.
I use my CDQ in analogue pre-amp mode most of the time as the difference is not huge between analogue and digital. The Westlake pre-amp section is very good.
Chris, that was kind of my thought process too, the benefits gained from bypassing my 8000 Q, might outweigh the differences between the M-Dac and the DQ Dac portion, as you say they share a lot of components and can't be that far apart.
My assumption is that your CDQ is the DQ with a CD drive, can you set the amplifier mode (digital or analogue) per input channel, or is set for all channels at any given time...? :)
...mmmm doesn't that imply that the Q-Dac will not see the light of day, well not under an Audiolab banner anyway :scratch:
Thats how I see it, JW described his time with IAG as a nightmare but I expect him to produce a power supply for it and he is working on a budget dac that he thinks will surpass the performance of the M-Dac.
realysm42
09-04-2012, 11:48
He doesn't think it will, he said it might. Really, you should go speak to him on that forum if you want anything more Chinese whispers about it.
technobear
09-04-2012, 11:58
My assumption is that your CDQ is the DQ with a CD drive, can you set the amplifier mode (digital or analogue) per input channel, or is set for all channels at any given time...? :)
The digital pre-amp is only available when using a digital input (or CD). If you select an analogue input then the analogue pre-amp is selected automatically. It reverts to digital mode when you select a digital input.
On the other hand if you select analogue pre-amp mode then every thing goes through the analogue pre-amp.
There are reasons why you might want to do this. If you have a very powerful power amp and/or very sensitive speakers, you may be able to hear the noise floor of the digital pre-amp when the signal is digitally attenuated. The noise floor is not attenuated. A small number of people have had this problem.
In analogue mode, the signal passes through a digitally controlled analogue stepped attenuator. When the signal is reduced in this manner, the noise floor is reduced too.
I think the analogue pre-amp is very good. Differences between analogue and digital are small enough not to care in my case.
The digital pre-amp is only available when using a digital input (or CD). If you select an analogue input then the analogue pre-amp is selected automatically. It reverts to digital mode when you select a digital input.
On the other hand if you select analogue pre-amp mode then every thing goes through the analogue pre-amp.
There are reasons why you might want to do this. If you have a very powerful power amp and/or very sensitive speakers, you may be able to hear the noise floor of the digital pre-amp when the signal is digitally attenuated. The noise floor is not attenuated. A small number of people have had this problem.
In analogue mode, the signal passes through a digitally controlled analogue stepped attenuator. When the signal is reduced in this manner, the noise floor is reduced too.
I think the analogue pre-amp is very good. Differences between analogue and digital are small enough not to care in my case.
Cheers Chris, sounds just what I want...digital from my SB/CD, and analogue for my TT and AV L,R & C...
The more I think about it the DQ is looking the way to go, but I'll have a demo anyway :)
sq225917
09-04-2012, 23:10
If you have any more than 30db of gain in your power amps, you'll likely get digital noise from the volume control in the digital pre section unless you have speakers under the mid 80'sdb efficiency. To counter this you can simply attenuate the output using a pair of Rothwells or similar.
Bear in mind the DQ will never see any upgrades from Johns new work, it's a dead product, the CDQ and Mdac are both scheduled for significant upgrades in the upcoming months.
Well I've had an M-Dac on loan now for 3 days, and have been using it in the prescribed manner, as a digital pre-amp too, so straight into my power amps (an SX and a P, as I Bi-Amp). And I'm very pleased with the results...:)
However I've subsequently discovered that modifying the Q for 'pass through' is not going to be viable or achievable...according to my electronics chum, all the switching is achieved by relays, so not a simple task. :doh:
So that leaves me with 2 options (well 3 if you include returning it)...:(
1. Run it as a DAC only (fixed output) into the Q, which I'll experiment with later, as I've got my Q back today, but I don't anticipate the SQ being as good, and you know how annoying that can be...:eyebrows:
2. Get a high quality A/B RCA switch, preferably with dual outputs, as this would allow me to connect to my power amps in parallel, (something I could do with the Q but not with the M-Dac). This should allow me to switch between the M-Dac and the Q as sources for my power amps.
3. I'm open to suggestions...
So does anyone know where I can get hold of a top quality A/B RCA switch? Or is it a case of getting one made up? I've seen plenty of cheapo ones out there but nothing that looks 'Hi Fi'...I can't even find a QED one:doh:
My croft preamp uses loads of little two and three pole switches, Maplin solid core bell wire and maplin gold phono sockets - no foo here - and seems to be transparent the the source used via the tape outputs, despite a 500 ohm or so resistor "in the way." I'm sure a suitable little switchbox could be very neatly made up with no derogatory effect whatsoever :)
StanleyB
17-05-2012, 15:09
So that leaves me with 2 options (well 3 if you include returning it)...:(
2. Get a high quality A/B RCA switch, preferably with dual outputs, as this would allow me to connect to my power amps in parallel, (something I could do with the Q but not with the M-Dac). This should allow me to switch between the M-Dac and the Q as sources for my power amps.
3. I'm open to suggestions...
So does anyone know where I can get hold of a top quality A/B RCA switch? Or is it a case of getting one made up? I've seen plenty of cheapo ones out there but nothing that looks 'Hi Fi'...I can't even find a QED one:doh:
You won't find anything better than mine about these days. If you are worried about the low price, I can always increase it ;).
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/PP/TC2D7240_STEREO_RCA2FPHONO_SIGNAL_ROUTER.html
You won't find anything better than mine about these days. If you are worried about the low price, I can always increase it ;).
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/PP/TC2D7240_STEREO_RCA2FPHONO_SIGNAL_ROUTER.html
That looks excellent Stan...
Can I output to both sets of output RCA's in parallel? Or is it a selectable one set in, one set out, scenario...as Glenn Hoddle would say ;)
As for the price...we've done business in the past, and you know an increase would be in the wrong direction :lol:
StanleyB
18-05-2012, 09:06
The outputs cannot be connected in parallel. Such a scenario would require an electronic buffer stage for best result. One reason you would need that is because each amp is likely to have a different input load requirement, which is likely to result in an uneven level matching of the output signal coming out of your speakers.
The outputs cannot be connected in parallel. Such a scenario would require an electronic buffer stage for best result. One reason you would need that is because each amp is likely to have a different input load requirement, which is likely to result in an uneven level matching of the output signal coming out of your speakers.
PM sent...
Sharp work Stan, your RCA router arrived yesterday afternoon...
It's just the job, excellent quality, and looks about as good as a switch unit can ;)
A few thoughts about the M-Dac;
It's at its best under the following circumstances...
When used as a digital preamp straight into power amps.
When being fed native unaltered FLAC, any crossfade or replaygain (from my SB receiver) really should be turned off for best results. This seems to invoke the D3E decorrelation engine, and whatever that is up to it sounds superb! :)
The 'actual sampling rate display' is very useful in spotting any untoward 'resampling' prior to the DAC, if it doesn't show the native rate and D3E, then something is amiss.
I've tried comparing my laptops (both XP and win7), using ASIO on both via the asynchronous USB, and although they sound superb, I can't hear any improvement over my humble SB receiver. So this D3E malarkey looks like it compensates for less than perfect digital sources...I had considered replacing my receiver with a touch, but I'll not bother now, and I still love the SB functionality, but no RG from now on, well not on my main system anyway ;)
The only downside is that the display can't be turned off which is a bit annoying, although I understand that the next software release will provide this functionality.
The soundstage, detail, and dynamic range are incredible if you get it configured as above...particularly using a good RCA switch unit! ;)
Seeing Simon's post above about significant upgrades coming so soon, isn't it a bit bad that a sub-standard product was introduced to market in the first place? Looks to me as if the originals were either under developed or just incompetently designed/badly utilised chipsets to start with?
Seeing Simon's post above about significant upgrades coming so soon, isn't it a bit bad that a sub-standard product was introduced to market in the first place? Looks to me as if the originals were either under developed or just incompetently designed/badly utilised chipsets to start with?
Didn't you like what you heard Dave?
Or are you just issuing baseless criticism about a device you've not heard?
...very objective! ;)
sq225917
20-05-2012, 19:51
@dsjr,
The mdac is due an add on upgrade external psu, as beloved of so many other brands. This item also adds complete analogue pre-amp functionality as well as Av switching. So upgrade might be the wrong term.
The CDQ will be getting the same output stage as the later, and better to my ears, Mdac design. This is quite a significant upgrade, probably enough to merit v2 status on the prooduct, but that's up to Audiolab.
Now I know John is good, but not even he could have predicted 9 months before it was completed that the mdac would surpass the CDQ, that would have required magic....So while it might suit your world view to take pot shots, it just makes you look a little churlish and uninformed.
Seeing Simon's post above about significant upgrades coming so soon, isn't it a bit bad that a sub-standard product was introduced to market in the first place? Looks to me as if the originals were either under developed or just incompetently designed/badly utilised chipsets to start with?
The DAC was launched as a DAC, its one of the best DAC's regardless of cost , I said that ages ago and still stand by it. It has a slot in the back which was intended to take a PSU up-grade at a later stage. ALL the reviews so far (and there are some serious engineers listening to it as well as audiophiles) have stated what most people have said, it beats DAC's that cost several £1000's and is simply a game changer. As regards sub standard product, what are you on about? :) A sub standard product cannot get 5 star reviews from everyone who has heard it can it? :)
The up-grades are not like an i-pad mk II, they are add ons to the functionality of the product. See this months HI-Fi Choice for a sneak preview of what is planned.
I have heard the M-Dac at 2 friends houses and it is simply jaw dropping (IMO), I ordered one 2 months ago, still waiting!
realysm42
20-05-2012, 21:58
The only downside is that the display can't be turned off which is a bit annoying, although I understand that the next software release will provide this functionality.
Heard from the man himself that you have to (by law) have some indication of power. I think the new firmware will have a power on blob or something equivalent.
I've got the 0.96 version and it's not on that. You do get a cool Lakewest logo though :lol:
It's a great unit, I can't wait for the new bits and bobs to be released.
StanleyB
21-05-2012, 06:07
Sharp work Stan, your RCA router arrived yesterday afternoon...
It's just the job, excellent quality, and looks about as good as a switch unit can ;)
Glad to have been of service :).
Heard from the man himself that you have to (by law) have some indication of power. I think the new firmware will have a power on blob or something equivalent.
I've got the 0.96 version and it's not on that. You do get a cool Lakewest logo though :lol:
It's a great unit, I can't wait for the new bits and bobs to be released.
Hi Martin, have you upgraded the firmware yourself? And if so where did you download it from? I've not spotted anything on the Audiolab site...presumably it will be available from John W somewhere, at sometime....:eyebrows:
As for the upgrades, I'm so taken with the unit as it is, I'd probably be better served spending the money bringing the rest of my kit up to its standard.
Stan's switch has removed my need for an analogue stage ;)
Are you using yours as a pre-amp too?
We were listening to some old 'benchmarks' on Saturday night, 'Kind of Blue' often gets trundled out at such times...and for the first time ever with an upgrade the missus went 'wow'! We even listened to it again Sunday morning, this time sober...just to make sure. Still as good ;)
@dsjr,
Now I know John is good, but not even he could have predicted 9 months before it was completed that the mdac would surpass the CDQ, that would have required magic....So while it might suit your world view to take pot shots, it just makes you look a little churlish and uninformed.
I have every right to question over hyped products that attract so much attention in a tiny market, just as you do with AVI :rofl: I'd rather stick with products that are better to start with and remain unchanged and worth more in years to come :)
I have every right to question over hyped products that attract so much attention in a tiny market, just as you do with AVI :rofl: I'd rather stick with products that are better to start with and remain unchanged and worth more in years to come :)
One point to bare in mind here Dave is that the M-Dac is now more of a computer 'appliance' rather than just a piece of Hi-Fi hardware, and by definition there will need to be continual software/firmware revisions, in order to maintain compatibility with other OSs & software releases etc.
OK, I stand corrected.
HOWEVER :) How would it compare blind with this at £75?
http://www.gak.co.uk/en/tascam-us-100-usb-audio-interface/31291?gclid=CLObqNP8kLACFSYhtAoddCFlqg
Now, in a sighted test the Audiolab would easily "outperform" the Tascam above because of the JW worshipping society currently in vogue on PFM and a little bit here, but take the identity away and throw in the Arcam Rpac at £160 or so into the mix as well.. Some of these new items on the block, almost certainly made in China for peanuts too, are making established HiFi DAC's look insanely highly priced - and I'm looking at the UK made Rega DAC too in fairness. These £500 models are going to have to be pretty damned good to justify the difference in cost IMO..
Apologies to Simon here, but I suppose I've just realised what a huge price issue the UK audio market has, since we're expected to pay £500 for a "mid-fi" DAC and thousands for a blinged up "Top End" one, where just maybe, some of these little ton-up specials could be almost as good if you didn't know which was playing...
OK, I stand corrected.
HOWEVER :) How would it compare blind with this at £75?
http://www.gak.co.uk/en/tascam-us-100-usb-audio-interface/31291?gclid=CLObqNP8kLACFSYhtAoddCFlqg
Now, in a sighted test the Audiolab would easily "outperform" the Tascam above because of the JW worshipping society currently in vogue on PFM and a little bit here, but take the identity away and throw in the Arcam Rpac at £160 or so into the mix as well.. Some of these new items on the block, almost certainly made in China for peanuts too, are making established HiFi DAC's look insanely highly priced - and I'm looking at the UK made Rega DAC too in fairness. These £500 models are going to have to be pretty damned good to justify the difference in cost IMO..
Apologies to Simon here, but I suppose I've just realised what a huge price issue the UK audio market has, since we're expected to pay £500 for a "mid-fi" DAC and thousands for a blinged up "Top End" one, where just maybe, some of these little ton-up specials could be as good if you didn't know which was playing...
...and in turn how does that compare to this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiio-E10-USB-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B005VO7LG6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337590366&sr=8-1
...at what point does one jump off the law of diminishing returns
I'm sure there is a tidy 'mark up' from audiolab, as with any other 'brand name', all I can say is that until recently I'd not heard of this JW fellow, I have no opinion of him...other than the evidence of his work.
I've had a loan of an M-Dac for a week, I think it's great, I'm going to buy it...and I got a 25% discount ;)
Hi Martin, have you upgraded the firmware yourself? And if so where did you download it from? I've not spotted anything on the Audiolab site...presumably it will be available from John W somewhere, at sometime....:eyebrows:
As for the upgrades, I'm so taken with the unit as it is, I'd probably be better served spending the money bringing the rest of my kit up to its standard.
Stan's switch has removed my need for an analogue stage ;)
Are you using yours as a pre-amp too?
We were listening to some old 'benchmarks' on Saturday night, 'Kind of Blue' often gets trundled out at such times...and for the first time ever with an upgrade the missus went 'wow'! We even listened to it again Sunday morning, this time sober...just to make sure. Still as good ;)
Have a look at this thread.
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119759 I think there is a link to the latest update from Dominick the software designer for the MDAC on page 17.
technobear
21-05-2012, 12:37
I have every right to question over hyped products that attract so much attention in a tiny market, just as you do with AVI :rofl: I'd rather stick with products that are better to start with and remain unchanged and worth more in years to come :)
Keep digging :lol:
(and the ADM9 truly was pants :ner:)
Have a look at this thread.
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119759 I think there is a link to the latest update from Dominick the software designer for the MDAC on page 17.
Excellent link Andrew thanks , and indeed it is page 17, so downloaded and ready to go for tonight...it would appear that a 'Factory Reset' is required to complete the firmware upgrade, a bit sloppy but no big deal :cool:
However I do think JW will need a slightly more sophisticated 'software distribution' mechanism moving forwards...;)
realysm42
21-05-2012, 12:52
The whole way the information on the product is handled is laughable, they should have a webpage with an FAQ on it, he repreats the answers so many times on PFM.
It's funny people are wound up saying the original product is sub standard; noone complains that better psu's are released for other products, why would this one be any different? It performs excellently (in my humble opinion) with the vanilla pack and I can't wait to get the extras for it.
sq225917
21-05-2012, 13:01
DSJR, you are free to question everything and rightly so. The thing about AVI as far as I can see is that they appear to want to mislead their potential customers with simple science half truths are component specification measurements that simply do not conform to any accepted industry norms and always fall on the 'beneficial' side of the normal scale. There's no input from the designer that isn't passed through the Ashley James bullshit filter so all you get is pointless marketing waffle- which is a shame as they make great products.
JW on the other hand, supports his product via the web. He doesn't start threads about them, he doesn't jump into competitors threads, he doesn't talk down competitors products, though he will give a view on a specific technology but always prefaces this by stating its IHHO. It's a different ball game altogether. So as I said I think you're being a bit churlish for complaining that their £600 dac doesn't give you a free blowjob and cook your tea for you. :-)
The whole way the information on the product is handled is laughable, they should have a webpage with an FAQ on it, he repreats the answers so many times on PFM.
Indeed, and lets hope the V99 software works...otherwise what's my backout path...err none! :doh:
I think I need to join PFM, as that would appear to be the unofficial support channel...;)
technobear
21-05-2012, 13:26
For those who wish to update their MDAC firmware, the latest release is here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75485064/mdac-update-v0.99.zip
For anyone wishing to revert to the original firmware, it is here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75485064/mdac-update-v0.90.zip
And as for Arcam rPAC vs Audiolab MDAC, this topic has been covered in my review of the rPAC elsewhere on this esteemed forum. The rPAC is good for £150 and in the context of appropriately chosen headphones or an appropriate budget system, it is very good. It does not however challenge the Audiolab 8200CDQ, less still the MDAC, when used with better headphones or a better system. The differences are quite clear.
For those who wish to update their MDAC firmware, the latest release is here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75485064/mdac-update-v0.99.zip
For anyone wishing to revert to the original firmware, it is here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75485064/mdac-update-v0.90.zip
You beauty!!!
Backout strategy and 'Supporting Documentation'...
Cheers Chris :cool::cool::cool:
realysm42
21-05-2012, 15:45
Technobear - did you get your free dac through PFM in the end?
I should add, I do appreciate his input and support, I've never seen another designer or company 'face' support someting so exhaustively; he could just make his own and our lives easier with a bit of organisation.
technobear
21-05-2012, 16:10
Technobear - did you get your free dac through PFM in the end?
Not yet!
I'm not exactly sure what I will be getting. The new Creek looks like a CD/DAC/Pre. I don't know if it will be that or something similar to an MDAC :scratch:
DSJR, you are free to question everything and rightly so. The thing about AVI as far as I can see is that they appear to want to mislead their potential customers with simple science half truths are component specification measurements that simply do not conform to any accepted industry norms and always fall on the 'beneficial' side of the normal scale. There's no input from the designer that isn't passed through the Ashley James bullshit filter so all you get is pointless marketing waffle- which is a shame as they make great products.
JW on the other hand, supports his product via the web. He doesn't start threads about them, he doesn't jump into competitors threads, he doesn't talk down competitors products, though he will give a view on a specific technology but always prefaces this by stating its IHHO. It's a different ball game altogether. So as I said I think you're being a bit churlish for complaining that their £600 dac doesn't give you a free blowjob and cook your tea for you. :-)
OK OK, I give in as gracefully as I can with apologies :) I just cringe a bit about the fact that someone buying one six months ago is going to have a new one available which may trounce the old, thus ruining its value - but maybe I'm exaggerating too much? I saw how Meridian and DNM changed the innards with almost every other batch and it infuriated me then, so maybe I'm over-reacting as usual.
Totally agree with you about AVI and it's a shame that the actual designer doesn't present himself directly more, as he DOES talk sense and is a gentleman. I posted a thread on their forum at the weekend about the fact that Martin Colloms, an electronics engineer and notable audio designer, reviewer and consultant to many hugely successful products of yore, claims to hear differences in cables. I was poo-poohed almost immediately and the thread was deliberately derailed into discussions about tea-drinking :lol: - not! Not sure I want to visit there for much longer. And while I'm at it, the new ADM40 is a special order item only with no chance of returning it once purchased (ordering procedure described on their site I understand) and of course, now the '9 has been "significantly" improved just now, I bet older drive units will no longer be available should service ever be needed in the next few years . As it is, one is recommended to flog the old one to buy the latest model - no change since 1994 then methinks :(
StanleyB
21-05-2012, 17:19
Totally agree with you about AVI and it's a shame that the actual designer doesn't present himself directly more, as he DOES talk sense and is a gentleman.
I would question the assumption that he talks sense. Only a few month's ago he proceeded to repeat that my DACs are merely a rebranded product sold under various brand names. I would have been impressed if he could produce a link or something to a rebranded TC-7520 or Caiman, instead coming up with unsubstantiated remarks like that.
By the way, quite a few members on the forum you refer to laughed at the idea when I mentioned my intention of developing a discrete analogue board that would be less digital and more analogue. They found it preposterous that such an idea could even be possible to turn into a viable product, let alone sell. But the Gator board has been well received by more knowledgeable folks.
I would suggest that you hang around people who actually know also more about audio and audio products, of which there is no shortage on AoS ;).
Firmware updated very easily...to v99
Automatically reset itself to 'factory setting', so quite a tidy upgrade
And I'd swear there's more bass, time for a lie down I think ;)
StanleyB
21-05-2012, 18:35
More bass after a firmware update :scratch:?
I would suggest that you hang around people who actually know also more about audio and audio products, of which there is no shortage on AoS ;).
You have there, a competent designer who doesn't listen much, and a mouthpiece who has no more technical knowledge than I do - and you know what a little knowledge can do............. he just shouts even louder than I do and keeps on until the other party shuts up! The thread over there appears to have been answered - the Top End of audio is to be ignored so we'll talk of teapots instead :rolleyes:
More bass after a firmware update :scratch:?
Hence the need for a lie down Stan, must be my current sobriety...:)
Reid Malenfant
21-05-2012, 18:48
More bass after a firmware update :scratch:?
Hence the need for a lie down Stan, must be my current sobriety...:)
This kind of Bass? 6753 :cool:
:rfl:
This kind of Bass? 6753 :cool:
:rfl:
Used to my favourite tipple Mark, but plays havoc with the digestive system...so it's the black stuff from now on....
:cool::cool::cool:
...let's put it down to 'burn in' :)
StanleyB
21-05-2012, 19:04
Don't get me wrong. It is possible to get more bass via software with the WM874X series DAC chips, and also with many others. But I would not expect anyone to tamper with the default DAC chips settings. I would expect that to be reserved for the filters settings. Assuming that the bass has been tampered with via software (it would have to be done via I2C or SPI ), what else in the frequency response has been tweaked that way?
realysm42
21-05-2012, 19:14
Anyone got a list of what the new firmware does (I don't want to trawl 1243612389017 pages on pfm for it).
Thanks.
Anyone got a list of what the new firmware does (I don't want to trawl 1243612389017 pages on pfm for it).
Thanks.
No idea what it's supposed to entail...The only obvious things are some additional menu options 'Jitter Rejection', and 'Polarity Selector'...
The current default settings are 'Automatic', and 'Non inverted' respectively.
Oh and the 'extra bass' setting...No!No!No!No!No! ;)
technobear
21-05-2012, 19:23
One of the things the new firmware does is to implement a new DSP routine for working around the bugs in the ESS 9018 chip (which ESS really should have fixed before putting the chip on the market). The bugs relate to locking onto the digital signal and can lead to crackles on the left channel with certain digital sources. The new routine does a better job of preventing these crackles (which only a few users have actually experienced) but quite a few users have reported that the DAC now sounds better than before.
When things settle down a bit I might try reverting to the old firmware for a more controlled comparison...
There're too many variables at the moment, DAC burn in, Stan's new switch etc.
All I can say is that it sounds better now than ever...;)
StanleyB
22-05-2012, 07:26
All I can say is that it sounds better now than ever...;)
And that is all that matters at the end of the day.
Looks like I'm not alone with my delusions...;)
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1695087&postcount=264
...I wouldn't go quite as far as our PFM chum, but it's in that direction, perhaps he's got 'burn-in' confusion too...:)
StanleyB
22-05-2012, 10:36
I don't think that you were deluding yourself at all. As I mentioned before, it is possible to tamper with the frequency response of some DAC chips though software. Traditional designers are more familiar with the use of electronic components after the DAC chip to achieve such "product voicing". But digital has opened up the possibility of doing it within the DAC chip itself.
What the process doesn't do (as yet) is to resolve even more detail that is embedded in the original digital signal. So there is still enough scope left for designers like myself to use traditional hardware design methods in order to get an improved signal playback.
I don't think that you were deluding yourself at all. As I mentioned before, it is possible to tamper with the frequency response of some DAC chips though software. Traditional designers are more familiar with the use of electronic components after the DAC chip to achieve such "product voicing". But digital has opened up the possibility of doing it within the DAC chip itself.
What the process doesn't do (as yet) is to resolve even more detail that is embedded in the original digital signal. So there is still enough scope left for designers like myself to use traditional hardware design methods in order to get an improved signal playback.
Interesting stuff Stan...:cool:
One of the things the new firmware does is to implement a new DSP routine for working around the bugs in the ESS 9018 chip (which ESS really should have fixed before putting the chip on the market). The bugs relate to locking onto the digital signal and can lead to crackles on the left channel with certain digital sources. The new routine does a better job of preventing these crackles (which only a few users have actually experienced) but quite a few users have reported that the DAC now sounds better than before.
Sorry to ask, but aren't these ESS chips actually video decoding ones? if this was their prime design application, although audio should be a doddle for them, perhaps they were being asked to do something not originally intended, a bit like using a RR Merlin Spitfire engine on/in a car chassis :)
technobear
22-05-2012, 12:12
Sorry to ask, but aren't these ESS chips actually video decoding ones?
No idea :scratch:
Why don't you investigate for us? :eyebrows:
Mark Grant
22-05-2012, 12:26
Sorry to ask, but aren't these ESS chips actually video decoding ones?
A link:
http://www.esstech.com/index.php?p=products_DAC
ES9018 is described as an 8 channel audio Dac, (two of them are also in the Oppo 95 Blu ray players.)
sq225917
22-05-2012, 13:54
Sorry to ask, but aren't these ESS chips actually video decoding ones? if this was their prime design application, although audio should be a doddle for them, perhaps they were being asked to do something not originally intended, a bit like using a RR Merlin Spitfire engine on/in a car chassis :)
That's about the stupidest thing I've read on the web in a long time. Much like asking 'if this frying pan was designed for freezing camels'.
realysm42
22-05-2012, 13:59
Alright mate, chill out.
Bluedroog
22-05-2012, 14:28
So as I said I think you're being a bit churlish for complaining that their £600 dac doesn't give you a free blowjob and cook your tea for you. :-)
I think blowy function is due with the next firmware update.
sq225917
22-05-2012, 15:40
Yeh, with the added multimedia slot..
realysm42
22-05-2012, 15:40
I won't be satisfied until it can do the tea and loving simeltaneously.
Sorry to ask, but aren't these ESS chips actually video decoding ones? if this was their prime design application, although audio should be a doddle for them, perhaps they were being asked to do something not originally intended, a bit like using a RR Merlin Spitfire engine on/in a car chassis :)
Most chip manufacturers specialize in more than just audio. The ES9018 is one of the highest spec dac chips on the market,also one of the most expensive. A design using this chip done RIGHT is hard to better. Of course The psu's, output stage, clock circuitry etc is important but the dac chip is the heart of the design.
Hi Leo,
Welcome back, dude - we've missed ya! Hopefully that's you now back as a regular? :)
Marco.
That's about the stupidest thing I've read on the web in a long time. Much like asking 'if this frying pan was designed for freezing camels'.
.... and that's one of the rudest things I've ever read on AOS. We're not all as technically brilliant as you are sq. Dave's a lovely guy. Cut him a bit of slack eh?
Ali Tait
22-05-2012, 22:19
Hi Leo,
Welcome back, dude - we've missed ya! Hopefully that's you now back as a regular? :)
Marco.
Likewise, nice to see you back Leo. Hope you and yours are well? :)
So as I said I think you're being a bit churlish for complaining that their £600 dac doesn't give you a free blowjob and cook your tea for you. :-)
Perhaps JW might consider adding such functionality - If so, I could see myself buying one....
___________________
a bit like using a RR Merlin Spitfire engine on/in a car chassis :)
That sounds like the kind of analogy your friend AJ might pick - he likes his Bentley's I believe....
Perhaps JW might consider adding such functionality - If so, I could see myself buying one....
Yes, I can understand why a blowjob might seal the deal! :lol: :D
;)
Marco.
That's about the stupidest thing I've read on the web in a long time. Much like asking 'if this frying pan was designed for freezing camels'.
Then please explain where I've gone wrong?
Most chip manufacturers specialize in more than just audio. The ES9018 is one of the highest spec dac chips on the market,also one of the most expensive. A design using this chip done RIGHT is hard to better. Of course The psu's, output stage, clock circuitry etc is important but the dac chip is the heart of the design.
Thank you Leo. That's the kind of answer I needed :) I'll shut up now.
technobear
23-05-2012, 09:46
Then please explain where I've gone wrong?
...and still digging :rolleyes:
I'm not digging! It just seems like making a rod for your own back if you have DAC chips especially designed for AUDIO applications and then choose to use a VIDEO one in the hope it "may" be better, and then finding it throws all sorts of extra demands into the mix which you have to deal with, finally making it a marketing thing to promote the finished product. Another scenario - super wideband opamps going up into megahertz regions which are so "fast" they acould actually cause issues with equipment further downstream, as well as issues with power supply noise?
Rather than a sarcastic putdown with no backup or evidence to support it, a simple explanation as Leo gave is all it needs to satisfy a genuine curiosity. Putdowns are what I expect from another site purporting to be scientifically based in its support of small active speakers and computer based audio, but not here, where I thought we were rather friendlier.
technobear
23-05-2012, 10:13
I'm not digging! It just seems like making a rod for your own back if you have DAC chips especially designed for AUDIO applications and then choose to use a VIDEO one in the hope it "may" be better...
What are you talking about?
Did you even look at the link that Mark Grant kindly provided?
Where is this VIDEO DAC nonsense coming from?
I think you need to go and lie down in a darkened room...
...or listen to some nice soothing music...
...and leave audio equipment design to audio equipment designers ;)
All this obsessing over nonsense is not good for you :mental:
Ah, I see where the AV thing came from - eight channels available in one of the models.
Mr techno sir, please consider me totally buried :lol:
Reid Malenfant
23-05-2012, 18:56
I'm not digging! It just seems like making a rod for your own back if you have DAC chips especially designed for AUDIO applications and then choose to use a VIDEO one in the hope it "may" be better, and then finding it throws all sorts of extra demands into the mix which you have to deal with, finally making it a marketing thing to promote the finished product. Another scenario - super wideband opamps going up into megahertz regions which are so "fast" they acould actually cause issues with equipment further downstream, as well as issues with power supply noise?
I think this has been done actually ;) & I don't think you are digging :D
At least the DACs used in the Metrum Octave are I believe fast enough to cope with video, there are also eight of them in the same unit.
I guess it's called thinking out of a different box :eyebrows:
Apparently it's also a very good performer...
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