Is my counterweight buggered?

[indus]

Sorry to bombard this forum with my problems, but I'm loosing the will to live:doh:


After much faffing I managed to get my cart (AT 440) onto my Sumiko headshell. I tried to set it up with my Steven's protractor, bizarrely where I first set my cart was spot on. That is quite suspicious and means I probably haven't used it properly.

Anyway, that's not my primary concern for now. When I try and set the tonearm arm up to find its floating point the counterweight doesn't seem to work properly.

It seems to rotate without really engaging with the arm, it just seems to spin. I have to pull/push on it to make it move up or down the arm which of course means its not a measured/accurate increment.

I've only had the deck a few weeks and didn't notice this problem before, have I broken it?:doh::doh::doh:

[Macca]

If you have a good eye and steady hands it is not a surprise that it is right first time - it is not that hard to do. In any case listening is the proof - it should sound absolutely fantastic - if not something is wrong.

The counterweight thing is odd, though - you seem to be saying it is loose around the arm with no 'grip'?

[hifi_dave]

Sorry to be vague but what is the arm ?

[RobbieGong]

Sorry to be vague but what is the arm ?

I believe the Op has the Technics 12XX stock arm.

[StanleyB]

After much faffing I managed to get my cart (AT 440) onto my Sumiko headshell. I tried to set it up with my Steven's protractor, bizarrely where I first set my cart was spot on. That is quite suspicious and means I probably haven't used it properly.
Oh, the number of females who have got pregnant the first time round through exactly such actions ;).

But that aside: yes the weight is normally not a stiff fit. There shouldn't be any play, but at the same time it should be smooth in feel and action when you move or rotate the weight.

[indus]

Thanks.

Its the stock arm. Basically when I twist the counter weight at times it seems to grip the arm and so move up or down the arm. But then it'll come to a point where it just spins freely and won't move up or down the arm, it just rotates. At this point I have to actually pull or push on the weight to make it move.

The cart/arm sound awful, loads of distortion. I don't know whether this is because I used the protractor wrong or because my tracking force (and therefore antiskate) is way off because of the counterweight issue.

Very frustrating.....

[Beechwoods]

David,

Follow the instructions in this video for getting your arm balanced. He shows how the counterweight should be set up. Once you get the arm set you can worry about the cartridge alignment, but I'm pretty sure cartridge alignment alone would result in the distortion you describe.

7OpNcXSdSj4

[indus]

Nick, I have been following that vid but this is what is happening...

I have the counter weight detached and in my hand

I twist it onto the arm. There is a little dead space and then the cw engages the arm and starts to rotate and travel along the arm inwards. I screw it so that it is in its maximum position.

So now of course the cart is lying all the way down on the record.

I now start to unscrew the cw. All is fine, it is engaging the arm and moving outwards.

BUT, the arm still hasn't floated and I've unscrewed the cw to a point where there is a little give. The cw is now spinning freely but NOT engaging the arm and not moving.

From this point if I want the cw to move any further out I need to physically pull it out rather than twist it.

Thanks for all your help

[flapland]

Hi David, I see you live in London. Depending on where I may be able to pop round with both a a couple of protractors and scales if that helpful tomorrow through to Tuesday.

Might have some longer bolts if needed (just read other thread)

Paul

[indus]

Thanks Paul, a very kind offer, thank you very much indeed.:)

The bolts issue is now sorted and before I get to aligning the cart I need to sort out this tonearm balance issue.

Could it be that my cart/head are too heavy for the technics counter weight?

Thanks again for your kind offer, but I need to resolve this issue first:)

[flapland]

No problem, I think you hit the nail on the head. Have you tried a ring of blue-tak around the counterweight as a temporary fix to get balanced out.

[indus]

The thing is I can get it to balance by screwing/pulling the weight out all the way to the very end.

But at the very end the weight does not move in an incremental way so I can't then accurately apply tracking force (and therefore no idea what anti skate to apply)

Am I making any sense, or am I talking gibberish?

[keiths]

Sounds like you're having to move the weight back beyond its functional range in order to balance out the headshell and cartridge. Your only option for now is to move the weight forward so that it is within its working range and then add lots of blutack until you can successfully balance out the arm. Then set the downforce and anti-skate.

[flapland]

David no this makes sense, if you do as I suggest and put a some blutak around the counterweight you won't have to wind out beyond the thread and should therefore be able to apply tracking force. If this works you can then look at getting a aftermarket heavier weight which I am sure exist.

[Stratmangler]

As has been suggested add a ring of BluTack to the counterweight - it sounds like the Sumiko headshell is heavier than the stock item, so you'll need more mass at the counterweight to counteract this.

[The Grand Wazoo]

As far as I see, if you add the appropriate amount of blu-tac (or whatever) out behind the counterweight, you will be able to balance the arm out - then when you rotate the weight, you will be applying a known weight as indicated on the scale.
This is surely a good thing?

If, however, you do as suggested above and attach the blu-tac to the weight itself, you will not know what force is being applied.

[Macca]

The sumiko is much heavier than the stock headshell so you need to add the small counter weight that is stored on the top left of the plinth. Screw that onto the back of the arm and you will then be able to balance the arm out,

[indus]

Thanks guys. Yes I think you are all right in the sense I am trying to use the counter weight beyond it's functional end point.

Anyway, with a little bit of black magic (I won't bore you with the details) I think I have sorted it. I have the arm balanced where it doesn't skip etc.

I have also aligned the cartridge with the protractor. There is now no distortion at all.

The problem now is that there seems to be hardly any bass. I mean it really just seems to have disappeared. Everything else sounds fine but the bass is just missing.

Any ideas what cock up I've managed to make now?

[flapland]

Have you got the Whest setup correctly, I would expect 47k ohm load and 40db gain.

Dip set to 6 and 1 respectively on each channel.

Also is Lyngdorf RP1 doing anything room correction wise.

[indus]

Martin, there is a silver metal disc shaped object with a small hole through the middle lying in a circular trough on the upper left of the plinth. But this also fits the spindle perfectly and I thought it was some kind of adapter for certain kinds of records?

Paul, the Whest was set to 47/40 when I used the Stanton and so should be right.

The Lyngdorf won't do this to the bass, the issue will not be a result of its actions I can assure you.

When I was fitting the 4 litz wires onto the cart I managed to cause a tiny fracture of the black plastic shrink wrap just by the connector. The result of that is I can see the silver wire underneath which may have also been slightly damaged (but not much as far as I can see)

Could this cause it? Everything else sounds fine though, ie both channels working, no distortion etc

Thanks again to everybody for taking time out on Easter Friday to help a cack handed, hapless vinyl noob

[Beechwoods]

Martin, there is a silver metal disc shaped object with a small hole through the middle lying in a circular trough on the upper left of the plinth. But this also fits the spindle perfectly and I thought it was some kind of adapter for certain kinds of records?

It is, it's an adapter for 'centre cut-out' 45's.

[indus]

Thanks Nick. That means I probably didn't get the additional weight when I bought the deck.

Saying that I think I've managed to balance the arm. However I can't figure why all the bass has been sucked out.

[Beechwoods]

The additional weight does tend to get lost easily, but you can get replacements here (this one is gold, if you scout around you'll probably find a silver coloured one):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Technics-SL-1200-SL-1210-additional-counterweight-GOLD-NEW-/380426852814?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item58933519ce#ht_1468wt_986

[flapland]

Does it sound the same with CD if so it could be as a simple as you have knocked some bi-wire cables out. If not flummoxed as you have stated the Whest is set correctly.

Out of interest why such a top end phono stage for a good but fairly cheap MM cartridge. I have the standard PS30R by the way.

[Stratmangler]

I can't figure why all the bass has been sucked out.

Is the headshell parallel to the record's surface?

[indus]

Thanks Nick, I'll get one ordered.

Paul, tomorrow morning I'll try a CD and then go around and check all the connections. As for your question, it's a a bit like this. I've just taken a jump into vinyl but didn't own a tt, arm, cart or phono stage.

So I sort of had to buy everything in one go. I decided one thing should be 'top end' and a keeper. Then a second hand Whest came up second hand at a good price so I went for it.

The cart is a stepping stone, one to keep me going whilst I get find my way around vinyl playback (and as you can see I'm struggling:lol:)

If things start to sound promising then a top end cart is on the menu as well as some further mods to the 1210

Chris, I'm pretty sure it is.

[Stratmangler]

Chris, I'm pretty sure it is.

It wouldn't hurt to try lowering the pillar a touch and see if the situation improves.
One benefit of the stock arm is the ease of use of the VTA adjuster.

[StanleyB]

Is it the stock headshell that is being used?

[Beechwoods]

It's a Sumiko he's using, Stan.

[StanleyB]

If I remember correctly they are about 12 grams in weight. But I have used heavy headshells with the stock Techie. I am wondering if the weight is the original one.

[indus]

Thanks Stanley, it is indeed the Sumiko.

I'm 99% sure it's the stock weight. The deck is almost brand new and not modified in any other way. The weight also looks like the stock.

There must be somebody else here who has used a Sumiko head and AT440, it would be useful to know whether they have also had to use the additional tonearm weight.

Anyway, today I've got to try and figure out why on earth there is absolutely no bass in my system!

[StanleyB]

If you have no bass, even from CD, check the polarity of your speaker wiring.
Also, if you can, take a pic of the tonearm rear assembly and stick it in this thread. Someone might notice something unusual. It's a long shot, but it has happened before on AoS that a picture produced a result :).

[indus]

Thanks Stanley.

This morning I checked all the connections to make sure nothing was loose (inc speaker terminal jumpers etc) and then took the Sumiko head/at cart off.

I put the original tech head/stanton cart back on and had a listen. It sounded like it did when I first heard it (ie with bass)

So at this point I was convinced it must be the new head/cart. So I put it back on again. I rebalanced it (with some difficulty due to the counter weight issue discussed) and had a listen and....

Hey presto, it's working properly! Not only is it working properly but it sounds so much better than the tech head/stanton cart. The bass is there but so much better controlled and defined. Initial impressions are that it sounds really really good.:):)

I have no idea what the problem was yesterday, but it is resolved now.

I'm so grateful to everybody who has try to help, really really appreciated. Sorry if I went on a bit but I've been desperate to hear the new cart/head for over a week now and kept getting scuppered by something.

There is some issue with the counter weight, but that isn't urgent as I've managed to work around it for now.

At least I can spend some time this weekend and listen to music (and drink beer):cool::cool:

[Beechwoods]

At least I can spend some time this weekend and listen to music (and drink beer):cool::cool:

What a result! Well done David. Enjoy the tunes this weekend!

[Macca]

Good result in the end! Maybe you had connected the cartridge tags up wrong the first time? Anyways, enjoy you records :)

[indus]

Thanks guys. I've got some friends coming around for dinner tomorrow and I know when they see the deck they are going to want to have a listen. Now it's sounding really good I can show it off!

[flapland]

Glad its all working now. All you need now is a decent MC cartridge to take it the next level.

[indus]

Hi Paul

Funny you say that because when I heard the difference the at440 made I immediately wondered how good a really high end cart would sound!

Before I invest in one I need to decide mc vs mm. My musical taste is mainly 'dance' music and a few peopple have said that mc is wasted/not suitable for this kind of music.

Though my preference is dance music I do actually really listen to it, detail, accuracy and nuance matter to me hugely. Bass reproduction is also very important as its dance music but accurate bass not a thudding noise.

Given all that would a good quality mc be better than a good quality mm?

Thanks again

[Audioman]

Hi Paul

Funny you say that because when I heard the difference the at440 made I immediately wondered how good a really high end cart would sound!

Before I invest in one I need to decide mc vs mm. My musical taste is mainly 'dance' music and a few peopple have said that mc is wasted/not suitable for this kind of music.

Though my preference is dance music I do actually really listen to it, detail, accuracy and nuance matter to me hugely. Bass reproduction is also very important as its dance music but accurate bass not a thudding noise.

Given all that would a good quality mc be better than a good quality mm?

Thanks again

Assuming you are talking about a standard Technics just forget about a high end MC. Need to put an appropriate stiff arm on and upgrade the deck to get the benefits. I think a £200 to £300 MM should be your limit. In my opinion MC cartridges are generaly preferable but you need an appropriate arm/deck. I suggest you study the mods done by the Technics officionados on the forum or look at alternative deck/arm combinations.

[StanleyB]

Before I invest in one I need to decide mc vs mm. My musical taste is mainly 'dance' music and a few peopple have said that mc is wasted/not suitable for this kind of music.
Just get a high output MC like the Denon DL-110 if it's dance music you intend to play a lot of. I have experimented with dance, reggae, D&B, etc. and high output moving coils gave the best solid bass.

[indus]

Thanks Paul. I had no intention of just whacking a high end mc on the turntable as it is. It was more looking into the future ie after I've done at least the psu mod and replaced the arm. But this some way off as yet, so perhaps it was a bit of a stupid question on my part

I was just wondering how mc carts fare in general with my preferred genre of music.


Thanks Stanley, suggestion noted

[Audioman]

Thanks Paul. I had no intention of just whacking a high end mc on the turntable as it is. It was more looking into the future ie after I've done at least the psu mod and replaced the arm. But this some way off as yet, so perhaps it was a bit of a stupid question on my part

I was just wondering how mc carts fare in general with my preferred genre of music.


Thanks Stanley, suggestion noted

David. I think this all depends on which MC you choose. A good design should reproduce all types of music well. If it's fine for rock in particular it should work with dance music. There is just quite a large variation in presentation between different brands and models.

Paul.

[indus]

Thanks Paul, understood.