Solving Society's disconnect from Music Listening and Reproduction

[Spectral Morn]

As a response to the article here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16900 I wrote the following which has generated a debate and as such is worth its own thread. So as to not detract from the linked to post I have moved the preceding posts.


I don't agree.

In my opinion the problems are many and using the example of cars and clothing both of which (while potentially luxury items) are for most people more vital in their lives than listening to music. We all need transport and to wear clothes and some like more bling versions, but they are still vital in peoples lives.

Listening to music is not really a vital part of any ones life (a few like myself yes but we are rare), in the main, and when it was mainstream to aspire to own an audio system of quality that was originally lifestyle aspirational lead (when there was nothing other that that to aspire to) or was lead by changes in technology, i.e CD. Most general members of the population view music as a commodity now not something to set time aside to listen to properly but just as back ground music and the phone or an Ipod (though increasingly a phone is used for this as well) will do.

The slide into/towards digital caused this erosion of appreciation because it became easier to use this new format no time had to be spent selecting music it all became so easy, one could change tracks via remote, so you no longer had to get up to change the record or reel to reel tape over. Easy, spelt quick and thus things have slid headlong towards mediocrity and no appreciation of quality or how to listen.

Now virtual media and the tie in with computer audio compounds this further imho.

Re the specialist HiFi industry well they are their own worst enemies, re lack of self promotion. The general public in the main don't know it exists and why is this? Well in my opinion because there is no joint pulling together to inform the general populace about it. Even if all audio companies are distributors and dealers combined they would still not quite have the effortless promotional value of say a Sony in their hey day. But it is exactly this joint up thinking that is imho required to at least slow the slide into nothingness that specialist audio is falling. I have been banging on this particular drum for what seems an eternity and all agree (talked to many on all sides of the industry) its what is required but then audio politics starts and cracks appear, so none do it or want to do it.

Camps appear quickly and its my way or no way and the overall requirement to promote the value of music and listening via better equipment (regardless of what it is) falls in favour of individual companies equipment being better. Money and potential loss of earnings by joint promotion is the issue at the heart of this. Sadly though if no one wants to listen then no one will buy the equipment.

I don't think it is the cost of the equipment (Budget vs Mid Market or High End) that is the real issue but the getting back of the appreciation of actually stopping to listen to music, the reigniting of passions about it is at the core of this and then the ability to get the information, re better ways to access it, disseminated widely, which will cost millions.

Sadly with the virtual world marching ever on, removing the positives virtues of physical media from humanities minds (books are in trouble a well) I think the moment for this may well have have passed. I hope I am wrong and I will myself at every opportunity bang the drum for music appreciation but sadly most say "so what" and walk on by.

This is about changing trends, populations thinking and desires re the value of music and then tapping into that desire by providing the means to access it. This is a huge undertaking and will require all (audio and music industry) to pull together for the greater good.

Ironically the introduction of digital (perfect sound forever) I feel has actually destroyed music, hopefully only for awhile, but maybe forever.

[Marco]

Wow - that's the most I've seen you write here in some time, Neil! Perhaps this discussion deserves a thread of its on in Blank Canvas? :)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Wow - that's the most I've seen you write here in some time, Neil! Perhaps this discussion deserves a thread of its on in Blank Canvas? :)

Marco.

No worries fire away.

I read the piece and felt it was a tad narrow in its focus/thinking as the issue is far bigger than the cost of equipment alone (though that may in a small way be a factor). Feel free to start a separate thread Marco.


Regards D S D L

[realysm42]

Ironically the introduction of digital (perfect sound forever) I feel has actually destroyed music, hopefully only for awhile, but maybe forever.

Can you exaplain to me a bit more what you mean by that please Neil?

[Spectral Morn]

Can you exaplain to me a bit more what you mean by that please Neil?

I used that term as it was the battle cry re CDs promotion over analogue. The record industries were desperate to reinvent the wheel (as has happened numerous times in the history of music; not all improvements in sound quality) not only for increased sales/fresh sales but also to aid sliding copy protection into the equation (analogue versions of this did not work).

I am in work at the minute so will expand on this latter.

Back from work now.......

The advent of digital and the way it was marketed and retailed has imho ultimately damaged the record industry and music itself.


Regards D S D L

[stupinder]

No worries fire away.

I read the piece and felt it was a tad narrow in its focus/thinking as the issue is far bigger than the cost of equipment alone (though that may in a small way be a factor). Feel free to start a separate thread Marco.


Regards D S D L
The issue is narrow and it's meant to be. Hifi Pig is a webzine and not a beard stroking intellectual journal and its not likely to become one. I genuinely do believe that the way to get kids to appreciate (and perhaps sit down and take time to listen) is to plonk them in front of something that sounds half decent and then maybe just maybe they'll connect and start to care about how their music sounds in their own bedrooms. Get them to care about the sound repro and they may buy into the hifi thing.
Its a small part of a much bigger picture, I accept.
The point I was making about cars and fashion is that the drivers for the lower end of the market are the uber high end aspirational products. High fashion and fast cars are not a necessity they are marketing tools used by these industries to get folk to buy into a brand....and it works.
I don't give two shakes of my big fat pink arse whether streaming or whatever is used to get to the music BUT i do agree that it has changed the way that we listen to music -read my article why I don't get on with computer audio. http://hifipig.com/computer-based-hifi-and-me/

[stupinder]

sad thing is i've just read back the computer article and still just gone and bought another Squeezebox only a few days ago:doh::lol:
will i ever learn?:)

[YNWaN]

I don't really accept the OP's premise either. Many years ago I was involved in the retail of specialist audio and young people didn't buy it then either (or rarely). The kind of audio equipment that we talk about on hi-fi forums has never been cheap and has never been aimed at young people (although I'm quite young).

[stupinder]

I don't really accept the OP's premise either. Many years ago I was involved in the retail of specialist audio and young people didn't buy it then either (or rarely). The kind of audio equipment that we talk about on hi-fi forums has never been cheap and has never been aimed at young people (although I'm quite young).
The Dual, Marantz/Nad/, Kef/Wharfedale was -or it's what i aspired to at 14...and so did a lot of my mates. I'm 44...though i did have to check with the wife!

[Marco]

read my article why I don't get on with computer audio. http://hifipig.com/computer-based-hifi-and-me/

Nice article, Stu. I can agree with and relate to a lot of what you say. There's a lot to be said for being physically in control of you music collection! ;)

Fortunately, however, I've not had a hard-drive fail on me yet, and with the NVA TFS, the interface is very user-friendly, which reminds me, I must update the thread with my recent thoughts... Too many things to do, and sadly, so little time! :rolleyes:

Marco.

[Marco]

No worries fire away.

I read the piece and felt it was a tad narrow in its focus/thinking as the issue is far bigger than the cost of equipment alone (though that may in a small way be a factor). Feel free to start a separate thread Marco.


S'up to you, dude. They're your thoughts, if you wish to expand on them further. Personally, I think the subject deserves its own thread, so go for it! :)

Marco.

[sq225917]

The way to get kids interested is to introduce them to value add formats of their favourite music while at the same time showing them VFM components that allow them to replay these formats. The issue is marketing, not just hifi, but the entire concept of selling people the idea that quantity is more important than quality and that low price is the sole arbiter of VFM, is the root of the problem. Everything else stems from this rush to the lowest common denominator.

Ultimately though, if the hifi industry wants to survive as being discrete from the AV/Games/Entertainment/Live music industries then it needs to offer something that cannot be repackaged by these, and that my esteemed friends is analogue audio. Trust me it is not a coincidence that so much focus is given over to analogue in the hifi press. it is pretty much the only thing that can stop hifi being subsumed into the digital consumer goods market over time.

[YNWaN]

Yes, I agree with all of that.
___________________


Fortunately, however, I've not had a hard-drive fail on me yet,

Really! I'm genuinely astonished - you have been very lucky, so far. Over the years I have had a number of (different) hard-drives fail on me. Friends who work in the computer industry are very much of the opinion that it's not 'if' a hard-drive will fail, but 'when'.

[Spectral Morn]

The issue is narrow and it's meant to be. Hifi Pig is a webzine and not a beard stroking intellectual journal and its not likely to become one.

What has that to do with the question at hand?:rolleyes: You have presented your thoughts and I, and no doubt others, will disagree. You have asked for opinions and I am sharing some. My view is that your expressed thoughts are too narrow in focus and you are missing the bigger picture and it is in my view the bigger picture that is behind the disconnect.


I genuinely do believe that the way to get kids to appreciate (and perhaps sit down and take time to listen) is to plonk them in front of something that sounds half decent and then maybe just maybe they'll connect and start to care about how their music sounds in their own bedrooms. Get them to care about the sound repro and they may buy into the hifi thing.

Its a question of re-engagement and what you propose will not imho work as the disconnect is society wide, not just among young people. There are some exceptions, with some kids getting the sound quality and reproduction issues and they are prepared to seek out ways of getting to it. Such was the case with me. There were more of us wanting to do this in the late 70's early 80's but today there are very few, as listening to music on anything other than a mobile phone is an alien thought to them. Or an Ipod docking station because it has been sold to them as being good enough.

The question at hand is how to reconnect society, which will filter down to young people into valuing music and sound quality and therefore wanting to own and listen to music via good quality (budget) equipment.

This reconnection will require massive efforts from the music industry, recording artists, the media and the audio industry. The thing is, is it too late to do this. Society is becoming more and more disconnected from the physical world and that is I feel part of the problem.

So while letting teenagers hear well recorded/there music on quality gear might get a few interested, on the whole my gut feeling is it will not get many.



Its a small part of a much bigger picture, I accept.
The point I was making about cars and fashion is that the drivers for the lower end of the market are the uber high end aspirational products. High fashion and fast cars are not a necessity they are marketing tools used by these industries to get folk to buy into a brand....and it works.

Yes it does because wearing clothing and driving a car are essential needs and listening to music is not an essential need.


I don't give two shakes of my big fat pink arse whether streaming or whatever is used to get to the music BUT i do agree that it has changed the way that we listen to music -read my article why I don't get on with computer audio. http://hifipig.com/computer-based-hifi-and-me/

This is an after effect of the main problems and not in and off itself the reason for the disconnect from music.

[Spectral Morn]

The way to get kids interested is to introduce them to value add formats of their favourite music while at the same time showing them VFM components that allow them to replay these formats. The issue is marketing, not just hifi, but the entire concept of selling people the idea that quantity is more important than quality and that low price is the sole arbiter of VFM, is the root of the problem. Everything else stems from this rush to the lowest common denominator.

Ultimately though, if the hifi industry wants to survive as being discrete from the AV/Games/Entertainment/Live music industries then it needs to offer something that cannot be repackaged by these, and that my esteemed friends is analogue audio. Trust me it is not a coincidence that so much focus is given over to analogue in the hifi press. it is pretty much the only thing that can stop hifi being subsumed into the digital consumer goods market over time.

I agree 100% with the above.

This is the only way to reconnect society to quality music reproduction and appreciation of music as art, important and not a lowest common denominator commodity.

All the related industries must sing from the same sheet and bang the same drum to achieve this. What we are talking about is social engineering and switching society's thinking back to what it once was.


Regards D S D L

[YNWaN]

The Dual, Marantz/Nad/, Kef/Wharfedale was -or it's what i aspired to at 14...and so did a lot of my mates. I'm 44...though i did have to check with the wife!

I accept that, I was also 'into' hi-fi at 14; but most of the other kids at school were not (I am of a similarly youthful age to yourself).

___________________

I do think the rise of the mp3 format has ultimately been a poor thing and very much moved the priority of focus onto quantity rather than quality. If you ask many 'young' people about the music on their generic portable music player, they will usually start by telling you how many tracks they have and how much hard-drive space it takes up.

[stupinder]

What has that to do with the question at hand?:rolleyes: You have presented your thoughts and I, and no doubt others, will disagree. You have asked for opinions and I am sharing some. My view is that your expressed thoughts are too narrow in focus and you are missing the bigger picture and it is in my view the bigger picture that is behind the disconnect.

There is simply not the room in a manageable read on a webzine to explore the whole issue -that's the point i was making. The views expressed are narrow for a reason -we are discussing it aren't we. In the wider context of the surrounding conversation of course other issues and thoughts will surface. Hifi Pig is not a philosophical journal on hifi -it's meant as an enjoyable read for people with an interest in hifi.



Its a question of re-engagement and what you propose will not imho work as the disconnect is society wide, not just among young people. There are some exceptions, with some kids getting the sound quality and reproduction issues and they are prepared to seek out ways of getting to it. Such was the case with me. There were more of us wanting to do this in the late 70's early 80's but today there are very few, as listening to music on anything other than a mobile phone is an alien thought to them. Or an Ipod docking station because it has been sold to them as being good enough.

To be fair i don't just say "young people" and i do say Joe Public at large. The point is (and I think we are all singing off the same hymn sheet here) is that folk are disengaging from serious listening to music and accepting what they are told is acceptable by phone manufacturers and the like. Interestingly i reckon there are a lot more young folk out there making music now than there ever was be interested to see what some of these people listen to their tunes on.

The question at hand is how to reconnect society, which will filter down to young people into valuing music and sound quality and therefore wanting to own and listen to music via good quality (budget) equipment.

This again I agree with BUT social marketing to the whole of society is a little more difficult than having a specific market to try and change the behavior of. The point is also that the yoof are going to actually BE society in general soon and their opinions and behavior will be even more difficult to steer unless you catch 'em young.

This reconnection will require massive efforts from the music industry, recording artists, the media and the audio industry. The thing is, is it too late to do this. Society is becoming more and more disconnected from the physical world and that is I feel part of the problem.
I agree again and what Simon says about there needing to be joined up thinking industry wide is spot on. Just because people say something isn't worth doing doesn't mean you shouldn't do it anyway.

]So while letting teenagers hear well recorded/there music on quality gear might get a few interested, on the whole my gut feeling is it will not get many.
That's fine, i'm not trying to change the world, just get a few folk interested in listening to a few tunes through deent kit.[/B]




Yes it does because wearing clothing and driving a car are essential needs and listening to music is not an essential need.
Clothes are essential FASHION is not. Cars are not essential -transport is.



This is an after effect of the main problems and not in and off itself the reason for the disconnect from music


Stu

'scuse the ballsed up formatting!!!

[Welder]

Am I the only person who thinks it will be a blessed relief when we, the small hobby obsessed minority called audiophiles, get in out coffins and stop telling the rest of the world that they’re a bunch of tasteless peasants who don’t really know how to appreciate music (not that most of what I listen too requires any real concentration to appreciate) and bemoaning technical innovation for the demise of our hobby.

[Marco]

Hi John,

I think you need to look up the word 'innovation'; and when you do, you'll find that the genuine variety isn't based around the premise of trading quality for convenience... ;)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi John,

I think you need to look up the word 'innovation'; and when you do, you'll find that the genuine variety isn't based around the premise of trading quality for convenience... ;)

Marco.

+1


Regards D S D L

[Welder]

Hi John,

I think you need to look up the word 'innovation'; and when you do, you'll find that the genuine variety isn't based around the premise of trading quality for convenience... ;)

Marco.

Hmm, its strange how convenience never has any quality isn't it. ;)

[bogle111]

The HiFi Industry has undergone a lot of changes. Public exposure to many different ways to gain access to music has also undergone many changes. There are more avenues that are vying for people's time as well as their disposable,- Computers (you are using one), TV's, Phones, the Gym, Cameras etc..

All that has happened is that the HiFi industry has gone back to what it was in the 60s, SMALL. The electronics industry however, partly funded by some small amounts of HiFi, is now bigger than ever.

It had a boom time in the 70's and 80's and in the 90's it started to fall back, big time, and is again SMALL.

Stu - I will also state that I believe the Press with it's all dancing, problem solving BS NAD 3020 and similar claims did more harm than good to the industry. And you want to lead the "cheapy brigade". People want quality, not at the same price as designer jeans. Make it something to aspire to.


I agree 100% with the above.

All the related industries must sing from the same sheet and bang the same drum to achieve this. What we are talking about is social engineering and switching society's thinking back to what it once was.

Regards D S D L

There is less money and return in trying to change society than giving them something new. Rome will never be what it once was.

If you think that you can interest a kid in cars and road safety by putting him in front of a Lemans 24hour car, then you are living in cloud cuckoo.

HiFi and Cameras had a boom time, Computers had a boom time, as did (do) Phones and TV's. That is progress and there is money in progress.

Without the money from the Japanese giants and a plan for home entertainment you're not going to change a thing, even with crap TV programmes. They won't do it because there is no mileage in it, no money.

Just be thankful that you can go out and buy an Audio Research Dooda or a Krell amp for a fraction of it's real value to the enthusiast and enjoy your hobby.

HiFi is not going to return to boom again for any of us, unless of course cars are banned and the internet goes down forever!:lol:;)

Regards
Pete

[Welder]

Or in big words coz I've done as instructed by my English teacher, quality and convenience are not necessarily mutually exlclusive. ;)

[stupinder]

Stu - I will also state that I believe the Press with it's all dancing, problem solving BS NAD 3020 and similar claims did more harm than good to the industry. And you want to lead the "cheapy brigade". People want quality, not at the same price as designer jeans. Make it something to aspire to.

Regards
Pete
I don't think that not costing a fortune is a prerequisite for being poor quality. "Cheapy" is a word that has the connotation of poor quality and that is not what my statement/comment was about.There is good kit out there that can be had for not a lot of money. There is crap hifi out there that costs a lot of money. Have a look at the amp (http://hifipig.com/do-good-things-come-in-small-packages-amptastic-mini-t/#more-482) that Jerry raves about on Hifi Pig that he connected to his £18K loudspeakers
What I and the guys that review kit for Hifi Pig will hopefully put together is a system (probably with a computer, PS3 or similar front end) that will represent an excellent starting point for someone wishing to get a significant step up in quality from spending 250 quid on the tat that is available on the high street. IT will offer no more than an informed choice for people -no more and no less!
As I say in the comment article, we intend to put real and genuine non-audiophiles in front of the system to review it and see what happens. I hope i'm right and listening to a carefully thought out, affordable hifi goes someway to encouraging a few people to explore "real" hifi a little further, or at the very least helps then "connect" with their music on a more personal level. If i'm wrong then so what?
I maintain that unless younger people and non hifi types are offered an affordable alternative to what they are spoon fed then the next generation of people interested in hifi will be further diminished to what it is now and the industry as a whole will suffer.

[Marco]

Hmm, its strange how convenience never has any quality isn't it.

You're missing the point, dude. We're talking about innovation. You were saying that we were: "bemoaning technical innovation for the demise of our hobby." Exactly what technical innovation has there been in audio recently, outside of things becoming smaller and arguably more convenient to use?

Genuine innovation quite simply hasn't happened in audio in the last 40-odd years. The only genuine innovation that has happened recently, in audio, is in terms of the development and refining of product miniaturisation.

The sad fact is, there have been no major advances in the actual out-and-out sonic performance of equipment made now, compared with the BEST of what was made in the heyday of audio, 40 years ago - in fact, in that respect, in many ways, we've gone backwards...

That's not being me anachronistic; merely realistic! ;)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

The HiFi Industry has undergone a lot of changes. Public exposure to many different ways to gain access to music has also undergone many changes. There are more avenues that are vying for people's time as well as their disposable,- Computers (you are using one), TV's, Phones, the Gym, Cameras etc..

All that has happened is that the HiFi industry has gone back to what it was in the 60s, SMALL. The electronics industry however, partly funded by some small amounts of HiFi, is now bigger than ever.

It had a boom time in the 70's and 80's and in the 90's it started to fall back, big time, and is again SMALL.

Stu - I will also state that I believe the Press with it's all dancing, problem solving BS NAD 3020 and similar claims did more harm than good to the industry. And you want to lead the "cheapy brigade". People want quality, not at the same price as designer jeans. Make it something to aspire to.



There is less money and return in trying to change society than giving them something new. Rome will never be what it once was.

If you think that you can interest a kid in cars and road safety by putting him in front of a Lemans 24hour car, then you are living in cloud cuckoo.

HiFi and Cameras had a boom time, Computers had a boom time, as did (do) Phones and TV's. That is progress and there is money in progress.

Without the money from the Japanese giants and a plan for home entertainment you're not going to change a thing, even with crap TV programmes. They won't do it because there is no mileage in it, no money.

Just be thankful that you can go out and buy an Audio Research Dooda or a Krell amp for a fraction of it's real value to the enthusiast and enjoy your hobby.

HiFi is not going to return to boom again for any of us, unless of course cars are banned and the internet goes down forever!:lol:;)

Regards
Pete

You are not wrong but I think it still possible to alter the perceptions of people but it would take many pulling together at once with one goal but it is unlikely to happen.


Regards D S D L

[Welder]

Roughly:
Innovation is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are accepted by markets, governments, and society. Innovation differs from invention in that innovation refers to the use of a new idea or method, whereas invention refers more directly to the creation of the idea or method itself.

In Neil’s original post;


I don't agre

The slide into/towards digital caused this erosion of appreciation because it became easier to use this new format no time had to be spent selecting music it all became so easy, one could change tracks via remote, so you no longer had to get up to change the record or reel to reel tape over. Easy, spelt quick and thus things have slid headlong towards mediocrity and no appreciation of quality or how to listen.

Now virtual media and the tie in with computer audio compounds this further imho.

That lot suggests that the introduction of CD and later file based audio is partially responsible for what Neil views as a a slide into mediocrity and a lack of “right” perception of quality.


What isn’t clear is what precisely has slid.
No matter, it’s safe to assume reading this bit that the proper (in Neil’s eyes) appreciation of music and the decline of specialist audio are the prime suffers of this slide.

One of the reasons Neil believes this “slid" has come about is because in his view the convenience of digital audio has turned the masses into consumers rather than discerning audiophiles who, according to Neil, know how to listen to music which the consumers apparently don’t.
To point out the arrogance of a view such as this is hardly necessary but what is possibly beneficial is to point out a few of the flaws in his argument.

We have a number of audiophiles who contribute here who have stated that in their opinion digital audio is of the same quality as analogue and further they approach their digital listening with the same rigour and sometimes ceremony as they do, or have in the past with their analogue listening.
So, this perceived decline can hardly be the fault of digitisation, even in its currently most innovative form as file based audio.

I could go on illustrating the flawed logic but lets just concentrate on the last line.


Ironically the introduction of digital (perfect sound forever) I feel has actually destroyed music, hopefully only for awhile, but maybe forever.



Music, is thriving. It is more easily available for consumption by the masses than ever before, more easily distributed and more widely consumed and this in part seems to be Neil’s complaint. One might infer from the general tone that the music that is liked and consumed by the masses on cheap (comparatively) innovative products is not what Neil considers as “proper” music perhaps and definitely not “proper” appreciation.
I seem to recall my parents saying much the same about the music I listen to and from what I gather from Neil’s posts, Neil does as well.

A hobby horse is fine. However, even a hobby horse runs better with four wheels and on a hard surface. It seems there is an element in audiophile circles whose hobby horses are a wheel short and stuck in the mud on some track.
If anything is to blame for the state of the audio industry today its the audiophile community and they’re insistence that they are the only true guardians of some fanciful notion of how and what music should be appreciated and on what format.

I have always found it difficult to deal with the fact that those who would have us believe they know the true meaning of quality audio and worthy music are those who sit largely on their own in front of a pile of electronics, coveting their rare copies of music like audio misers, rather than those who play, dance, and listen to live music.

Like I wrote, the quicker we get in our coffins and take all this snobbery and hopefully the bulk of the Hi Fi Industry in its present form with us the more likely it is that these antiquated and often extraordinarily expensive replay systems will get buried with us.

[tubehunter]

well said John

totally agree

[stupinder]

You are not wrong but I think it still possible to alter the perceptions of people but it would take many pulling together at once with one goal but it is unlikely to happen.


Regards D S D L
Never going to happen unless the many can see a positive short to medium term financial benefit of being on board...or conversely a negative short to medium term effect by not being on board.
Hifi Pig can do little but put forward their ideas and create a little spark of interest. It is a campaign and campaigns start small. Some snowball and become popular movements and others whither.
All we can do as a media is put forward OUR views (you may or may not agree with them, but that is largely irrelevant) light the blue touch paper and see what happens. Clearly the process is a little more complex than that but you get my drift i'm sure.

Record Store Day (april 21st) which started as a small campaign in the States is spreading and doing a good job of promoting independent record shops.
What i'm saying is that doing little things matters a great deal. If you don't agree with the campaign then that's fine and we have lost you from the off, but we are doing something that we see as being worthwhile, worth our efforts and people will get on board and we will make a difference... however small that may be.

[jandl100]

Gosh, what a lot of negative vibes when someone comes along with an idea to get more people involved in decent music reproduction! :doh: ... that's what''s wrong with the hifi industry today! :lol:

Good luck to Stu if he wants to try out his idea. I for one will actively support him. I can't see that it will do any harm to anyone, and hopefully some folks will be grateful for being introduced to a better way to play their fave choons. :)

[Werner Berghofer]

John,


those who would have us believe they know the true meaning of quality audio and worthy music are those who sit largely on their own in front of a pile of electronics, coveting their rare copies of music like audio misers, rather than those who play, dance, and listen to live music.

exactly that’s the point! Reminds me of the days back when I was a dude at the age of 18 or 20, visiting HiFi shops for the first time. I had no idea what the arrogant guys were talking about, when in fact all I wanted to do is to make my music listening experience more enjoyable. The more I talked to them, the stronger became my impression that they were not interested in music at all.

Werner.

[stupinder]

John,



exactly that’s the point! Reminds me of the days back when I was a dude at the age of 18 or 20, visiting HiFi shops for the first time. I had no idea what the arrogant guys were talking about, when in fact all I wanted to do is to make my music listening experience more enjoyable. The more I talked to them, the stronger became my impression that they were not interested in music at all.

Werner.
Perhaps our next little campaign should be to get the jargon out of hifi!:) Though i'm sure we at Hifi Pig are as guilty as the next :doh:
Perhaps i'll start to write reviews in my natural dialect.
"Bass were bloody rubbish and t soundstage was all over t place. Loud bits and quiet bits were right bloody good though and you could really tell t difference. Grimethorpe Colliery Band av never sounded so bloody smashing!. Tell thi what i'm going to t tarn and buying missen one reight now.":ner:

[Marco]

Hi John,


Innovation is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are accepted by markets, governments, and society. Innovation differs from invention in that innovation refers to the use of a new idea or method, whereas invention refers more directly to the creation of the idea or method itself.


So where are the "better or more effective products" today, in audio, which have advanced the art of achieving high-fidelity from recorded music, superceding what has been achieved by the BEST equipment made 40-odd years ago?

Yes I know full well that innovation differs from invention. However, the key words associated with innovation, in relation to the subject we're discussing (audio), are "advance" and "improvement".

So let me ask you again:

Perhaps you could outline exactly where the major or ground-breaking advances and improvements have been in standards of achieving high-fidelity, from recorded music, produced by audio equipment, in the last 40-odd years, compared with standards achieved then, by the BEST equipment from that era?

I would like a list of products made today which you consider fulfil the above criteria - cheers!

Marco.

[stupinder]

Hi John,



So where are the "better or more effective products" today, in audio, which have advanced the art of achieving high-fidelity from recorded music, superceding what has been achieved by the BEST equipment made 40-odd years ago?

Yes I know full well that innovation differs from invention. However, the key words associated with innovation, in relation to the subject we're discussing (audio), are "advance" and "improvement".

So let me ask you again:

Perhaps you could outline exactly where the major or ground-breaking advances and improvements have been in standards of achieving high-fidelity, from recorded music, produced by audio equipment, in the last 40-odd years, compared with the standards achieved then, by the BEST equipment from that era?

I would like a list of products made today which you consider fulfil the above criteria - cheers!

Marco.
Horns!!! :ner:

[Marco]

Expand, please? :)

Marco.

[stupinder]

Expand, please? :)

Marco.
Tractrix expansion or Le Cleach?

[Marco]

Yes, but horns are old technology, the innovation for which was carried out YEARS ago. Anything 'new' today, in that respect, is simply a refinement of an old technology, not an example of genuine innovation.

Marco.

[Joe]

ISTR discovering music via the highly imperfect media of cheap Japanese transistor radios and Dansette record players.

To blame the demise of music on digital formats (assuming for the sake of argument that such a demise has occurred) is to put the cart before the horse. It might well be that there have been no hifi products that match the best of breed from 40 years ago, but the same is more or less true of popular music.

[Marco]

It might well be that there have been no hifi products that match the best of breed from 40 years ago, but the same is more or less true of popular music.


Indeed, which I think is basically what Neil was trying to say, although unfortunately not explaining it very well...

Incidentally, I don't agree with all of his views on the subject, but I think we have to accept that today's technology, in audio, has merely succeeded in making equipment more compact and convenient to use, rather than it significantly advancing on the sound quality achieved by the best of what old and established technology achieved at its peak, much of which (as has been referred to) continues to influence the design of audio equipment made today.

The genuine (and great) pioneers and innovators, in audio, have long since left us, but their influence on the high-end audio industry still remains!

If we can all agree on that fact, then we can move on and extrapolate the other interesting points, which have been raised by the discussion :)

Marco.

[chelsea]

Well it looks as though people listen to as much music now as they did 40 years agp (probably a lot more).

I think we need to accept that it's not going to be how it was in the 80s.

For most people there cheap audio equipment,ipod,phone and all in one surround sound systems are good enough.

Sad but a fact.

[Joe]

Well it looks as though people listen to as much music now as they did 40 years agp (probably a lot more).

I think we need to accept that it's not going to be how it was in the 80s.

For most people there cheap audio equipment,ipod,phone and all in one surround sound systems are good enough.

Sad but a fact.

I don't (even) think it's sad. Transistor radios were good enough for me in my teens; the thought of being able to access more or less any music, more or less anywhere, with a sound quality far superior to AM radio would have seemed like a dream come true. 'Proper' hifi was out of reach until I was working full-time, at which point, ironically, I had much less time available to listen to music.

[stupinder]

Yes, but horns are old technology, the innovation for which was carried out YEARS ago. Anything 'new' today, in that respect, is simply a refinement of an old technology, not an example of genuine innovation.

Marco.
Sorry Marco I was pulling your chain:)
Innovation, if that is the right word, has come in the form of new media and the possibilities that the "microchip" has afforded us. Is it better because of that I don't know and will be down to personal preference.

[Marco]

I don't (even) think it's sad. Transistor radios were good enough for me in my teens; the thought of being able to access more or less any music, more or less anywhere, with a sound quality far superior to AM radio would have seemed like a dream come true. 'Proper' hifi was out of reach until I was working full-time, at which point, ironically, I had much less time available to listen to music.


Yup - that succinctly outlines my position on the matter :)

However, as I've said before, I would like to try and expose more young people to listening to 'proper' hi-fi, as anytime I've done it, the reaction has been encouraging - certainly enough to convince me that they aren't a 'lost cause', in that respect.

Clearly, they *do* enjoy hearing their favourite music reproduced to a higher standard. The challenge is to convince them that the effort is worthwhile!

Marco.

[jandl100]

Yeah I agree with Stu - no, the other one, Chelsea.

A lot more people listen to music more often than they used to because of the modern-style easy access and portability. And I'm sure they enjoy it. As Joe says, compared to the trannie radios of our youth it's actually pretty good these days!

"Quality sound" has always been a minority pasttime and it always will be. But then one person's quality is another's "not good enough" and another's "too expensive for what I want"- it's all relative.

MP3? yes, in all honesty it's fine for most people's needs. (Do I get banned for saying that? :lol:)

But I think there is mileage in getting more folk to have a decent system at home they can plug their MP3 player into. Would most of us be happy with that? No, but that's kind of irrelevant really!

[Marco]

Innovation, if that is the right word, has come in the form of new media and the possibilities that the "microchip" has afforded us.

Indeed, but it almost certainly hasn't advanced the art of achieving high-fidelity, from recorded music! ;)

There have been some benefits, however, outside of that area, which I readily acknowledge :)

Marco.

[Werner Berghofer]

Stu,


For most people there cheap audio equipment,ipod,phone and all in one surround sound systems are good enough.

I bet that in the Sixties and Seventies much more music lovers used compact cassettes and cheap transistor radios than high-end audio equipment to connect to their dreams and desires. Many of the wealthy folks which were able to afford expensive, high-end stuff had lost their emotional connection to music or got bored in concert halls and opera houses. The HiFi Stereo at home was a status symbol, similar to visits in concert halls and opera houses.

Werner.

[Spectral Morn]

I want to respond to Welder's comments and those of others but I am going away for a few days (shortly) so I will when I come back.

Not surprisingly some are taking what I am saying in the wrong way, they are not looking at the bigger picture here re 'where the disconnect' came from and 'when it began' my view is it began with the introduction of digital as a music carrier; though initially it helped audio sales (CD players + the systems required to get the best from them) and the music industry but only temporarily.

My opinions are based on many years in audio and brown goods retailing and working in music retailing as well. I can also see the disconnect beginning to form now days against the printed word; I work in a bookshop currently, so its not an expression of arrogance or being patronizing or a one view re the 'only way to listen to music' but a deep concern for the things I hold dear. If others agree fine, if not fine that is their choice.

Like all attempts to understand where any issues came from or began, it is in reality usually a patch work of causes and not just one.

My initial disappointment with Stu's article is that he is focussing on one of the after effects, not the causes. That is the source of my frustration.

He says, that in a webzine is not the place to try and deal with such things. It would be my contention as there are no costs re printing or pressures (online) to keep articles short then online is exactly the place for broad in depth articles which can attempt to look in depth at such matters; either in a long form one shot or as part of a series of articles. This type of shallow, surface skimming writing also frustrates me.

If he feels his readers have not got the attention span to read an in depth article then that imho is sad. In my view articles should be as long or as short as is required to do justice to the subject; no doubt we will disagree here as well but I am personally a fan of long form in depth writing and as I said above I personally find shallow two dimensional articles (in all walks of media) very frustrating but such is the modern world.

This I find particularly disappointing....


Hifi Pig is a webzine and not a beard stroking intellectual journal and its not likely to become one.

The audio industry is imho in need of more in depth articles/reviews as most other printed titles become more and more like tabloids i.e shallow. However Stu its your baby and you take it in the direction you feel you need to go with it. By the way, the view I just expressed should not be taken personally as this view is one I have long held and have expressed on AOS and elsewhere many times.

[Marco]

For Neil's "disconnect", please also see 'dehumanise'. Those are sentiments I also largely agree with :)

Marco.

[Joe]

I want to respond to Welder's comments and those of others but I am going away for a few days (shortly) so I will when I come back.

Not surprisingly some are taking what I am saying in the wrong way.

Or maybe they simply disagree with your arguments. Is an mp3 file less 'personal' than a cassette tape? Is an internet radio stream less 'real' than an AM radio broadcast? Does the same apply to AV? Is a DVD less 'human' than a VHS tape? It seems like nonsense to me.

An analogy might be with the paperback book. Until Allen Lane introduced Penguin books, paperbacks were seen as 'downmarket' and not 'real books'. The quality of the texts he published changed that perception for all but the most snobbish bibliophile, and put great literature in a portable format within the reach of the masses.

IMO the Kindle and its ilk are simply a development on that same path; now you can carry a library rather than just a single book. (Bookshops were dying on their arses long before the Kindle arrived, from a combination of deep discounts of bestsellers by supermarkets, online retailers which carry a range of titles far in excess of those available in even the biggest bookshop, and the huge number of charity shops, where you can pick up reasonably good quality titles for less than the price of a newspaper).

[Marco]

Or maybe they simply disagree with your arguments. Is an mp3 file less 'personal' than a cassette tape? Is an internet radio stream less 'real' than an AM radio broadcast?

Well, in your 'modern' examples, above, the common denominator is the existence of a computer.

The fact is, many people don't like (or welcome) the intervention of computers in their lives, and how they tend to control them (the dehumanising aspect), *unless* their use is absolutely necessary... And so in many ways, people were happier and more contented with their lives, when things were simpler! :)

Marco.

[Welder]

You're missing the point, dude. We're talking about innovation. You were saying that we were: "bemoaning technical innovation for the demise of our hobby." Exactly what technical innovation has there been in audio recently, outside of things becoming smaller and arguably more convenient to use?

Genuine innovation quite simply hasn't happened in audio in the last 40-odd years. The only genuine innovation that has happened recently, in audio, is in terms of the development and refining of product miniaturisation.

The sad fact is, there have been no major advances in the actual out-and-out sonic performance of equipment made now, compared with the BEST of what was made in the heyday of audio, 40 years ago - in fact, in that respect, in many ways, we've gone backwards...

That's not being me anachronistic; merely realistic! ;)

Marco.

No Marco, I dont think I am missing the point. :)

As you imply in this post, there are a number of innovations in the world of audio, a couple of which you mention. It is pointless me mentioning what I believe are innovations because you’ve already acknowledged some, and any further that I might add to the list are not only obvious but will lead to a circular debate based on subjective impressions and selective interpretations of what innovation means as your emboldened criteria selection in a later post demonstrates.

So, lets just accept that there have been many innovations which may have given rise to measurable improvements in audio reproduction but not necessarily a subjective improvement in listening satisfaction and leave it there.


If one subscribes to the view that not a lot has changed in the past 40 years barring such innovations that have made audio more convenient but not necessarily any worse, or better sounding, by any objective yardstick and prefer to indulge a preference for “older” equipment based on the above view, the only caution I would put forward is obviously such equipment is no longer being manufactured and therefore there aren’t enough “old” pieces of equipment for everyone who has an interest in quality audio reproduction, particularly if one is after what one considers to be the best of this era.
Fortunately I believe the best of what is produced today equals in performance the best of anything made earlier. As you write, not a lot has changed with regard to outright performance.

Neil’s view is certainly that CD was such an innovation and it was Neil’s post I was trying to address and not your particular hobby horse/s which I might add seem to suffer from the same lack of hard surface and wheel. ;)

[Marco]

Lol! And like you don't have a "hobby horse" of your very own, John!! We're reminded of it all the time. I think that, after you've had a long look in the mirror, and seen the face of hypocrisy staring back at you, you should indulge in a course of introspection ;)

And no, I won't be accepting this either (and thus brushing it under the carpet to pacify your sensibilities):


So, lets just accept that there have been many innovations which may have given rise to measurable improvements in audio reproduction but not necessarily a subjective improvement in listening satisfaction and leave it there.


...as it's simply your opinion, not fact! Some of us have rather different ideas. We can agree to disagree on our respective opinions, and move on from that aspect of the discussion, but that's as far as it goes.

I'll get to the rest of your post later.

Marco.

[Joe]

Well, in your 'modern' examples, above, the common denominator is the existence of a computer.

The fact is, many people don't like (or welcome) the intervention of computers in their lives, and how they tend to control them (the dehumanising aspect), *unless* their use is absolutely necessary... And so in many ways, people were happier and more contented with their lives, when things were simpler! :)

Marco.

And I think that, then as now, some people were happy and contented, and some were unhappy and discontented, but now at least people have the chance to vent their unhappiness and discontent via AoS*

*Other vents may be available.

[Welder]

Lol! And like you don't have a "hobby horse" of your very own, John!! We're reminded of it all the time.

I think that, after you've had a long look in the mirror, and seen the face of hypocrisy staring back at you, you should indulge in a course of introspection ;)

And no, I won't be accepting this either (and thus brushing it under the carpet to pacify your sensibilities):



...as it's simply your opinion, not fact!

I'll get to the rest of your post later.

Marco.

:eek::lol:

Indeed Marco, but my hobby horse has a full set of wheels and glides along quite nicely judging by some of the recent posts (yours included) regarding both the sonic benefits and convenience of file audio over some of the "best" of the older equipment some are fond of. :ner::lol:

Oh, I try not to do mirrors mate, they seem to break before I get the right face on. :D

[Marco]

Mmm... I think it's best if we leave that aspect of the discussion there. You know exactly where I'm coming from!

Marco.

[Marco]

And I think that, then as now, some people were happy and contented, and some were unhappy and discontented, but now at least people have the chance to vent their unhappiness and discontent via AoS*

*Other vents may be available.

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

The fact is, though, many people hate computers (me included) and only entertain using them when there is no other option. Therefore, if you genuinely hate using computers, then I think it's fairly safe to assume that your life isn't going to be any happier sharing it with them!

Quite honestly, if I didn't have AoS to run, I could very easily dissolve my relationship completely with computers, as there is nothing else that I really need one for. My (largely self-sufficient) and traditional lifestyle is such that I simply don't need to be 'connected' with the outside world, in the way that most people seem to need to these days.

Marco.

[Joe]

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

The fact is, though, many people hate computers (me included) and only entertain using them when there is no other option. Therefore, if you genuinely hate using computers, then I think it's fairly safe to assume that your life isn't going to be any happier sharing it with them.

Hmmm. You host a computer-based forum, and have just acquired a computer-based music player. Doesn't seem much like 'hate' to me.

I find computers a terrible waste of time, both in the sense of posting tripe here and elsewhere, and in the sense of trying to fix the bastard things when they go wrong, but I certainly wouldn't say I hate them, and I expect that the number of actual computer haters, certainly in those aged under say 40, is actually very low.

The internet is a hugely useful source of information about all sorts of things, and I find it hard to imagine doing without it.

[Marco]

Well, Joe, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I lived very happily before computers were around, and I could very easily do so now, quite simply because my lifestyle is such that it isn't heavily dependent on them - and that's very much the way things will continue!


Hmmm. You host a computer-based forum, and have just acquired a computer-based music player. Doesn't seem much like 'hate' to me.


Not acquired yet, as it needs some small adjustments made to the design, in order for it to perform fully satisfactorily, sonically, in comparison with what I'm used to from my traditional audio sources.

The beauty of the TFS is such that, by incorporating it into my hi-fi system, I don't need to add to any (hated with a vengeance) computer-oriented paraphernalia, such as is usually necessary when one embraces computer audio. I simply control everything via a piss-easy interface on my (already existing) laptop!

That's the main reason the TFS was allowed house room, in the first place!! ;)

Marco.

[Joe]

Fair enough. But a true computer-hater wouldn't allow anything computer-like in the house at all, just as some folk in the old days refused to have a telephone or television installed!

[Marco]

Sure. I guess then I'm not a "true computer-hater" (does one need a special badge, or membership of a club, or something?)

I'm simply someone (and my wife is the same) who has no great love of computers, and shuns using them, whenever possible. Let's put it that way! :)

Marco.

[Joe]

We didn't have a phone until I was well into my teens, but that may have been due to poverty rather than technophobia!

[Stratmangler]

I simply control everything via a piss-easy interface on my (already existing) laptop!

That's how I (and to be fair probably most other users) came to use a Squeezebox as a source.
It was just hung off the back of an existing home network.
And it has a piss-easy interface too ;)

[Marco]

We didn't have a phone until I was well into my teens, but that may have been due to poverty rather than technophobia!


Lol! Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-technology (far from it), providing its use is of unquestionable and worthwhile benefit. I'm simply anti the notion that we have to surround ourselves with it (and its associated gadgetry) 24/7, 365 days a year, like appears to be the case with some folk.

Computers will never be vital to my existence; merely an occasional accompaniment, used on MY terms, with discretion! I never want to be totally reliant on them, or indeed on any form of gadgetry :nono:

Marco.

[Marco]

That's how I (and to be fair probably most other users) came to use a Squeezebox as a source.
It was just hung off the back of an existing home network.
And it has a piss-easy interface too ;)

Yesh, but how much computer-associated paraphernalia already existed as part of your "home network", before the Squeezebox entered the equation? I bet you've got a damn sight more 'pish', strewn all over your house, in that respect, than I have! ;)

I suspect that we'll also have to disagree on what is defined as a "piss-easy interface". What's "piss-easy" for you, is liable to be rather different for me!

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

Yesh, but how much computer-associated paraphernalia already existed as part of your "home network", before the Squeezebox entered the equation?

I bet you've got a damn sight more 'pish', strewn all over your house, in that respect, than I have! ;)

I suspect that we'll also have to disagree on what is defined by a "piss-easy interface". What's "piss-easy" for you, is liable to be rather different for me!

Marco.

Funnily enough, when I bought my first Squeezebox I bought just that, a Squeezebox.
Nothing else.
Just a Squeezebox.

Later on I bought a USB HDD just for storing my music files - I rapidly ran out of drive space on my computer.

I've since bought a low power consumption NAS, which runs Logitech Media Centre, and the Squeezeboxes are run from that.
My Music Library is stored there too.
If the NAS box isn't accessed for 15 minutes it sends itself to sleep, at which point it consumes something like 0.04w of power.

I naturally have a fair bit more "pish" strewn around the place - I work in a technical field so utilise computers daily for work.

You'd be surprised at how simple the web interface for Logitech Media Server is to operate - it's point at the pictures/icons and click :)

[Marco]

I think that rests my case, dude. All I have is a laptop, a router (hidden out of sight, inside a cupboard) and the TFS, neatly stored on my equipment rack - that's it!

I don't even need a separate screen to use, in order to access the music stored on its hard-drive, as all that is done through the screen on my laptop.

And with one click of the mouse, I can see the cover art and track listings of every album stored there, and with one further click, play any or all of them, and everything is done wirelessly :cool:

I'd still rather play some records, though! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

I think that rests my case, dude. All I have is a laptop, a router (hidden out of sight inside a cupboard) and the TFS - that's it!

I don't even need a separate screen to use to access the music stored on its hard-drive, as all that is done through the screen on my laptop.

And with one click of the mouse, I can see the cover art and track listings of every album stored there, and with one further click, play any or all of them, and everything is done wirelessly :cool:

I'd still rather play some records, though! ;)

Marco.

What case?
Anyway, what you've just defined s a computer network, whether you like it or not.
It's not so very different from what I have running here :ner::D

I still play records myself from time to time ;)

[Marco]

What case?


Lol - the case that you've got more compe-choota 'pish' lying round the place than I have... But, you've of course explained why :)

There are certainly plenty of people though, with computer audio set-ups, which aren't in any way as visually unobtrusive as yours or mine - and a damn sight more complicated to operate!

No bloody way could I ever have bits, here, there and everywhere, plugged into 'stuff', with screens and all manner of SHITE cluttering up the place, just to play music - especially when it decides to take the hump, one day, and not 'play ball'! :D :mental:

:nono: :nono:

Keep it simple, stupid, is my motto!

Marco.

[Lodgesound]

I think that music simply does not hold the place in people's lives that it once did.

When I was growing up I started actively listening to and loving music when I was 5. Thanks to a kindly neighbour I had my first open reel tape machine when I was 8 although I knew what a tape recorder was from the age of 2 as I used to sit on a neighbour's living room floor watching the reels go round on one until my mother came and forcibly removed me.

Still I digress - or do I? I find it remarkable how many software music and media players model themselves on analogue machinery - most noteably on high end open reel tape machines. I meet young people (in their early teens) who aspire to owning an actual open reel tape machine just as I did at that age when owning a computer with EGA graphics and an 8086 processor could cost around 8 - 10 thousand pounds.

Despite the undeniable convenience, cleverness, versatility and above all cheapness of computer systems now they seem to be regarded by most as a service item and held in the home with the same regard as a washing machine or a fridge-freezer.......useful and quite necessary.

Because of it's forced association with computer distribution music has also fallen into the above trap and as a result into the "usefully convenient" category in many people's lives with an ever decreasing aspirational value in terms of actual ownership of the product let alone sitting and listening.

I have seen people come into studio control rooms and hear high end monitoring systems and say "I really did'nt know that music actually could sound like that!" It happened to me when I first heard a high end monitoring system at the age of 14 after which in later life I found myself owning professional equipment purely to get that kind of quality at home when I listened.

High-end HiFI is very expensive - way too expensive in my opinion however having said that for those who wish to indulge it does set levels of aspiration along with the natural encouragement to go and purchase new music of high quality to feed such a system.

There is a great deal of utter nonsense talked in the HiFi industry but to counter that a good amount of learned advice also. Quality recordings of artists can still be obtained and at the moment analogue technology in all of it's forms - be it vinyl record or tape based - is king and I believe holds the key to moving the current "high end" industry for the home forward.

We humans are very much like Magpies - we like shiny things that we have maybe had to fight to obtain but does'nt that make owning those things so much more worthwhile?

[Alan Sircom]

There's a fundamental flaw in the HiFiPig feature. Ascribing our teenage desires on the desires of a teenager today simply doesn't work. Buying most teenagers a hi-fi system today is like buying them that poster of Farah Fawcett in the red swimsuit.

There's no magic spell, no magic bullet, no magic price or magic explanation that can undo this; you could frog-march your teenager into a hi-fi store, give them a demonstration, hand them the money to buy the system... and watch them run out of the shop and buy a laptop. Even an iPod is old-hat now; music is just another App on their smartphones. For many, this means they have already found their ideal system, but it just happens to be a smartphone with a good pair of headphones or IEMs (and, in great fairness, these things can sound excellent).

Part of this comes down to the multi-role demands they place on their electronics. TV is suffering because of this too; these new quasi-working Internet-Enabled TVs exist because set makers are losing business to laptops running NetFlix, YouTube, Hulu, iPlayer and the rest. And with that comes a 'good enuf' culture that views the content provided by these businesses as being no-cost, and therefore no-value and no-worth.

There's never been more access to music, and interest in music still persists. But an active interest in the way that music sounds is waning.

Hi-fi has always been a minority interest, but that inherent 'good enuf' mindset reduces the pool of potential hi-fi enthusiasts by an order of magnitude. And I don't see any easy way to ignite that spark of interest in quality in the masses.

[jandl100]

Perhaps it's a 'generational' thing. Most things are when you look at them in sufficient perspective. The reason being, I suspect, is the natural rebelliousness of youth. Every generation reacts against the standards of the previous one. Perhaps the next generation along will react against the 'good enuf' culture that so much of music and all the entertainment media suffer from at the moment.

[John]

I think music will always matter to teenagers just go to a gig and see for yourself.
Computers are neither killing music or the second coming however they offer another choice as how to get good sounds and for me its about the enjoyment of music so anything and i mean anything that helps with that I am ok with
Unfortantly I think record companies are still being draged screaming into this century
As for hifi its all about small is cool I tend to agree with Marco we not really moved forwards, most people are happy listening to music from mobile phones and ipods they simply not interested in equipment
On the positive side I think its possible to get very good sounding audio for sensiable money

[Macca]

Hi-fi was never a mass-market thing even in the golden age of the Seventies (Why was the Seventies the Golden Age for almost everything? :scratch: Worrying, that.) For example my parents never had a hi-fi, neither did any of the neighbours or the parents of almost all of my friends and aquaintances. A portanle cassette recorder with twin speakers was high end as far as I was concerned.

Conseqently their is no point trying to sell hi-fi 'to the masses' They didn't buy it then and they won't now. All that is required is to make people who would be interested if they knew what was available and possible on a budget.

At a wedding a couple of years back I was sat next to one of my young cousins (16) and we got talking about music - he is a musician and he records his own mixes as well, just with a pc and desktop speakers and headphones. I had a couple of pictures of my system on my camera so I showed him what I was using. We got into cost and he was surprised how little I had spent, it got him thinking that he could massivly upgrade hgis replay system for a couple of hundred which is (apparantly) well within the budget of todays teenager :eek:

The point is he did not relaise that it was possible to start out for so little, he assumed that all proper hi-fi was megabucks and had never looked any further. Not the first time I have encountered this phenomonon, either.

[Tim]

Well I have read this with great interest and think a lot are fundamentally missing a huge point - the teenagers/youth of today are nothing like we were (I'm 53) and they never will be again. We are the dinosaurs trying to hang onto an idea that has now sadly gone, whether we like it or not computers, iPods, iPhones, the internet and streaming music servers are how the majority of society get their music and they are more than happy to get it that way too. Just reading through the magazines you can see how the trends have changed and dwindling sales is also an indicator that the glory days are gone. You either have to adapt to this new order and understand what your target audeince wants, or fail. The other huge point is that young kids are not computer haters, they love them and embrace new technology with open arms. They also don't have the time or patience to sit down and listen to an album either, try and get a kid to sit down and do nothing for an hour listening to an album and you are a better person than I :scratch: They want shuffle play (which I hate) or just want 1 or 2 tracks from an album. Not only don't they want or need the systems we have, they don't want to listen to music in the same way we did/do either.

For a large section of society music is either free or extremely cheap to source and it's instant - if it's not instant they are not interested. And furthering that point, there has never been as much music available as now..... I cannot remember a time when there was so much live music available - it's everywhere, with new venues opening all the time and bands sell out like hot cakes regularly - and how many festivals do we have now too? Just look at how quickly Adele has sold 21 as well - over 20 million copies sold, that's a lot of sales in a very short space of time, so music itself is far from dead despite what the record companies may tell you - their fat profits are gone, but the world is awash with music. Just take a walk around London or sit on a tube train and see whose listening to music. In fact just look around you anywhere outside the four walls of your listening room or away from the keyboard?

We are a dying breed guys and like it or not nothing is ever going to change that. I applaud the sentiments of the HiFi pig article but it won't ever work, we live in a very different age now. I does make me laugh too when people pop out of the woodwork saying they are computer haters, as they sit banging away on their keyboards. Is that hate more because they don't know how to fix them when they go wrong, or cannot get them to do what they want? It amazes me that after nearly 20 years of them being a consumer device, a large number of their users still don't understand how they work or are able to fault find minor issues. I sat with a barrister the other day and had to explain to them that changing the time and date on a Windows machine was not a complicated task.

I certainly don't agree there is a disconnect with society and music listening, far from it. However, the quality of it's reproduction has always been and always will be a pastime of the select few IMO. It's great to see a revival of vinyl available at gigs, but it's still too expensive for the majority, especially if the two tracks you like are only going to cost you under 2 quid to download, or nothing if you don't mind ripping it off via a torrent. That's another thing, music has never been so cheap. Even newly released CD's cost less than I was paying for an LP in 1980 - that's just mad!

I think these two statements by John and Werner are more akin to my way of thinking.


those who would have us believe they know the true meaning of quality audio and worthy music are those who sit largely on their own in front of a pile of electronics, coveting their rare copies of music like audio misers, rather than those who play, dance, and listen to live music.


The more I talked to them, the stronger became my impression that they were not interested in music at all.

I don't think John's statement should be viewed negatively either - there's nothing wrong with basking in the glory of something that gives you immense pleasure, but just remember that we are a very small minority, we always have been and always will be IMO and to be honest is there anything wrong with that either?

What does sadden me is that I don't think it will be too long before even the CD medium will be dead. Broadband speed is improving all the time and the quality of available downloads is improving too. As soon as downloadable lossless formats become widely available/affordable, with printable sleeve notes and covers, that will be the end of mass CD sales. There will still be a need to buy a physical item for many, but not on the scale we have seen in the past and we are going to have to pay for that luxury too ..... times have changed guys and it's never going back to where it was, not ever.

:cool:

[anthonyTD]

Good post Tim,
And unfortunetly, i tend to agree with a lot of it, I see a lot of young musicians in my line of work, and as you say, live music is as popular as ever, however, when you explain to the young that you actualy sit infront of a Hi Fi system and actualy do nothing but listen to posibly a whole album, most look at you with total disbelief.:eek: Times have indeed changed, my Dad was probably the odd one out in the street where i grew up, we didnt have much money but he did actualy have a Hi Fi system, [mostly all made by him] and genuinely cared about how the music sounded, i have carried on from him, but i think the generations after mine are a very diffrent breed as far as audio and Hi Fi is concerned, yes, there are still many youngsters that once shown what a good system is capable of marvel at how good recorded music can sound, but most will enevitably go back to listening to their ipods, phones and be happy that they can shuffle and get their music when they want and not be too worried about how good or bad it sounds.
Its our generation [and previous] where Hi Fi is still important enough to want to reproduce recorded music in the best posible way that we can, and therefore i realy feel that its our generation on the whole that will continue to spend their hard earned on upgrades and all things related to high end audio, with sadly' the minority of the younger generations taking an interest for the future.:(
Anthony,TD...

[chelsea]

Streaming and vinyl are the way forward.

People will find a good system if thats what they want.

[Welder]

and therefore i realy feel that its our generation on the whole that will continue to spend their hard earned on upgrades and all things related to high end audio, with sadly' the minority of the younger generations taking an interest for the future.:(
Anthony,TD...

And that is what it's really all about isn't it. ;)

[Werner Berghofer]

Tim,


As soon as downloadable lossless formats become widely available/affordable, with printable sleeve notes and covers, that will be the end of mass CD sales.

I’m just listening to “Revolution”, the latest album recently released by the Swiss jazz trio “Rusconi”. Yesterday I purchased it in ALAC format directly from the band’s website (http://rusconi-music.com/). I voluntarily paid € 15.– | £ 12.50 for the download; the band asks you to name your price. Two other records from the Rusconi trio, “One up down left right” and “Stop & go”, unfortunately I had to purchase in CD format, because these albums aren’t available for download in lossless formats. Amazon prices for these CDs were € 17.99 | £ 15.— and € 20.99 | £ 17.50 respectively.

Like all the other CDs they are collecting dust in my bookshelves. Earlier this week I removed my Yamaha CD player from the audio chain upstairs in the living room. It’s an obsolete device which once was useful for playing music in an obsolete format I’ll surely miss not even for one second in the future.

Purchasing high-quality music never has been easier as today, as well as discovering young talents, because the part of the publishing and distributing industry is becoming less important. I consider myself happy living now. Nothing is preventing one to connect high-quality DACs, amplifiers, speakers and headphones to computers and mobile devices used for music playback.

Werner.

[John]

Great post Tim and agree with nearly everything you written.

[brucew268]

Another "hear! hear!" for Tim's post.

The world has changed, and we wail about it on our modern PC's while we text our spouse saying we'll be late. I could keep up with email 10-20 years ago, but the volume is much larger today, as are all the stimuli and demands on our time. (Yet we do have more access to info than we ever had.) So, no wonder people don't have time to sit and listen to an album, regardless of cost, quality, or availability of good equipment. I would love to spend more time listening to my good system. But being on the go, even around the house, I spend more time than I'd like to admit on a very portable rig. Surprising how bad it's not, in actual fact.

Also, I do agree with Macca's post that HiFi has always been the realm of the few. Among the families of many of my friends growing up were moderately cheap rack systems. And those people paid little attention to that system. They spent more time with the clock radio in the kitchen and bedroom. And they all had pretty decent earnings for outdoor play toys. My general impression was that most people did not have, or at least did not listen to hifi systems. Again, most of what people could find, or saw marketed, were basic rack systems pretending to be hifi's because of marketing with more thought to cost and bling than to sound. And then we come along with elitist language, elitist budgets, and elitist shops, trying to change the world with a business strategy that would never get investors with any business sense. (Present company excepted, of course!)

Blame marketing, blame the big boys. Blame today's lifestyle. Blame a world that we can only change one person at a time. And change it one person at a time, based on their lifestyle, their appreciations, and their budget.

That was a bit ranty wasn't it. Sorry.

[anthonyTD]

And that is what it's really all about isn't it. ;)
Not sure i follow you there John :scratch:
A...

[Tim]

I’m just listening to “Revolution”, the latest album recently released by the Swiss jazz trio “Rusconi”. Yesterday I purchased it in ALAC format directly from the band’s website (http://rusconi-music.com/). I voluntarily paid € 15.– | £ 12.50 for the download; the band asks you to name your price. Two other records from the Rusconi trio, “One up down left right” and “Stop & go”, unfortunately I had to purchase in CD format, because these albums aren’t available for download in lossless formats. Amazon prices for these CDs were € 17.99 | £ 15.— and € 20.99 | £ 17.50 respectively.
I'll check those out Werner, thanks. I think it's great being able to buy music direct from a band's website, kind of like buying it from them at a gig, which I always try to do if I can. I often get them signed, as the artists I see tend to come and chat to the fans after the show - I even got a thank-you Tweet from Gretchen Peters this afternoon!

I did get caught out once with the 'voluntary payment' thing and mistakenly paid £80.00 for a CD :doh: The artist was very helpful and refunded the money without any fuss - I am very careful now.
I too don't play CD's once they have been ripped anymore and will be archiving them like André and Alex have when I get the time, at the moment they are still packed in crates from my last move. I do play CD's when I buy them, as that's the only way I can keep track of what I have listened too, as once they are ripped they don't see the light of day again. I am extremely happy with my music playback methodology and play far more music than I used to, mind you I think that's down to my Harbies :eyebrows:

By the way, how is that Lyr sounding Werner?

[Werner Berghofer]

Tim,


how is that Lyr sounding Werner?

just wonderful, like all the other Schiit gear in my home: three Bifrost DACs (http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7) and two Valhalla (http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=2) headphone amplifiers. Because the Lyr (http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=3) has an RCA out on its back, I use it also as preamp in my desktop system to control the volume of my KRK Rokit 5 powered speakers. The second Valhalla is located upstairs in the living room as an additional headphone listening station – which is urgently needed because most of the time the cat uses the comfortable chair next to the original headphone rig. (Glad she doesn’t use my headphones too.)

Sonically I don’t detect much differences between the Lyr and the Valhalla amps. Both types work very well with my Beyerdynamic DT 990 and Beyerdynamic T1 headphones with an impedance of 600 Ω. It is often stated that the Lyr is especially well suited for orthodynamic headphones, but I can’t verify this: no orthos in my home. The maximum playback volume of the Lyr is higher, and the T1 is more efficient than the DT 990, so I always operate the Lyr’s volume knob with respect and caution ;-)

Werner.

[stupinder]

There's a fundamental flaw in the HiFiPig feature. Ascribing our teenage desires on the desires of a teenager today simply doesn't work. Buying most teenagers a hi-fi system today is like buying them that poster of Farah Fawcett in the red swimsuit.


I don't think this is the flaw at all. At no point in the article have I suggested that the front end should be a CD player or a Turntable and in subsequent conversations with the Hifi Pig team the majority of folk believed that the front end of the budget system would inevitably (that word has negative connotations, but it's not meant to in this case) be a computer or a PS3...or even an iPod -something folk already have in the majority of cases. You are assuming that we (or more accurately I:)) are suggesting they all go out and buy steam powered turntables -I was not. I did say that I lusted after a Dual/NAd/Wharfedale system.
I am more than aware of what teenagers want from their technology as I have a 14 year old and a 17 year old. Without a doubt they want convenience, they want versatility and they want cool. The point is you (or they) can have all this AND you can have good sound if they use decent stuff down the chain.
The point I was making when I wrote the article was that perhaps a turn off for none audiophiles was the entry point (from a financial perspective) to access what is considered good sound quality. The man in the street (not necessarily a teenager) doesn't have (or isn't willing to spend) thousands on a hifi system. They may be willing to dip a toe in the audiophile water if they could get a taste of the high end for a couple of hundred quid or so.
I still believe that once you give people a choice of crap quality sound over good quality sound at a similar price point then they will choose the good quality. I also firmly believe that, once they appreciate and connect with their music, they will also be more likely to move up the food chain and more expensive and better sounding kit.
I don't want folk to have the tennis bird scratching here arse poster on their walls and I don't expect them to wear platform shoes, what I wanted to put forward was that these people had choices ...and choices at a price point.

I did an experiment this week. I took an old turntable and fitted a Linn k9 cartridge to it and gave it to my youngest son. It's still sat on the side where I left it for him. He has however today ripped a load of his own cds to his hard drive to use on his iPod. Perhaps the team's chosen system will be a portable headphone amp and good pair of headphones. We don't know yet, but we will continue down this path as we do believe it is important.....in a very small way;)

[Alan Sircom]

I don't think this is the flaw at all. At no point in the article have I suggested that the front end should be a CD player or a Turntable and in subsequent conversations with the Hifi Pig team the majority of folk believed that the front end of the budget system would inevitably (that word has negative connotations, but it's not meant to in this case) be a computer or a PS3...or even an iPod -something folk already have in the majority of cases. You are assuming that we (or more accurately I:)) are suggesting they all go out and buy steam powered turntables -I was not. I did say that I lusted after a Dual/NAd/Wharfedale system.
I am more than aware of what teenagers want from their technology as I have a 14 year old and a 17 year old. Without a doubt they want convenience, they want versatility and they want cool. The point is you (or they) can have all this AND you can have good sound if they use decent stuff down the chain.
The point I was making when I wrote the article was that perhaps a turn off for none audiophiles was the entry point (from a financial perspective) to access what is considered good sound quality. The man in the street (not necessarily a teenager) doesn't have (or isn't willing to spend) thousands on a hifi system. They may be willing to dip a toe in the audiophile water if they could get a taste of the high end for a couple of hundred quid or so.
I still believe that once you give people a choice of crap quality sound over good quality sound at a similar price point then they will choose the good quality. I also firmly believe that, once they appreciate and connect with their music, they will also be more likely to move up the food chain and more expensive and better sounding kit.
I don't want folk to have the tennis bird scratching here arse poster on their walls and I don't expect them to wear platform shoes, what I wanted to put forward was that these people had choices ...and choices at a price point.

I did an experiment this week. I took an old turntable and fitted a Linn k9 cartridge to it and gave it to my youngest son. It's still sat on the side where I left it for him. He has however today ripped a load of his own cds to his hard drive to use on his iPod. Perhaps the team's chosen system will be a portable headphone amp and good pair of headphones. We don't know yet, but we will continue down this path as we do believe it is important.....in a very small way;)

I think you misunderstand what I said. Your youngest son doesn't though. Handing him a turntable is as out-of-step as you or me being given a wind-up gramophone as a teenager.

Think about this a bit. When you were a teenager, if your dad (or your friend's dad, or someone you knew) had a hi-fi system, didn't you sneak a listen? I know I did, and I know this was the minting of a lot of people who developed a passion for music. And, by the same token, I would guess that your kids don't have the same drive to hear what things sound like on your system that much. Why? Because their iDevices do a 'good enuf' job.

There doesn't seem to be an "if you build it, they will come" response here, at least not in the UK. We actually have it pretty good here; we have more specialist hi-fi stores per capita than practically anywhere else on the planet, at anything from the entry-level to the Oligarch level (and beyond), we even - in Richer Sounds - have entry-level products available for considerably less than they cost anywhere else in the world, because of the relationship between Audio Partnership's brands and Richer... but rank and file people just don't ever consider audio to be worth spending money on any more. Which is perhaps why your average Richer store is wall-to-wall TV sets these days. There will likely always be some who beat a path to traditional audio's door, and there is already increasing interest in higher end headphone and DAC solutions for the home, but there is no Pete Townshend like power chord we can play that will mint the hi-fi industry a new generation of hi-fi buffs, it seems.

I don't know why this is, although I guess it has something to do with the UK always having had the highest concentration of mobile devices on the planet for the last 25 years. I don't know why in Portugal (for example) people still consider recorded music to be important enough that they spend on average about 30x more on hi-fi than we do, or why over the border in Spain, they spend even less than we do.

I really don't have a dog in the entry-level fight anymore. We have the advantage here of having enough magazines that they can each carve out their own niche. Nevertheless, I keep abreast of what's happening in all aspects of the market. And there simply isn't much of a horde of proto-hi-fi enthusiasts out there waiting to find the best thing they can for the lowest price. Or any price, for that matter.

They are doing precisely what your youngest son did, and looking at all our old audio gear as antique technology that were obsoleted by smartphones and headphones a decade ago.

[Reid Malenfant]

They are doing precisely what your youngest son did, and looking at all our old audio gear as antique technology that were obsoleted by smartphones and headphones a decade ago.
Either that or watching so called reality TV :rolleyes: :doh: Or Eastbenders, Crappynation Street etc :nocomment:

[stupinder]

I think you misunderstand what I said. Your youngest son doesn't though. Handing him a turntable is as out-of-step as you or me being given a wind-up gramophone as a teenager.

Think about this a bit. When you were a teenager, if your dad (or your friend's dad, or someone you knew) had a hi-fi system, didn't you sneak a listen? I know I did, and I know this was the minting of a lot of people who developed a passion for music. And, by the same token, I would guess that your kids don't have the same drive to hear what things sound like on your system that much. Why? Because their iDevices do a 'good enuf' job.

There doesn't seem to be an "if you build it, they will come" response here, at least not in the UK. We actually have it pretty good here; we have more specialist hi-fi stores per capita than practically anywhere else on the planet, at anything from the entry-level to the Oligarch level (and beyond), we even - in Richer Sounds - have entry-level products available for considerably less than they cost anywhere else in the world, because of the relationship between Audio Partnership's brands and Richer... but rank and file people just don't ever consider audio to be worth spending money on any more. Which is perhaps why your average Richer store is wall-to-wall TV sets these days. There will likely always be some who beat a path to traditional audio's door, and there is already increasing interest in higher end headphone and DAC solutions for the home, but there is no Pete Townshend like power chord we can play that will mint the hi-fi industry a new generation of hi-fi buffs, it seems.

I don't know why this is, although I guess it has something to do with the UK always having had the highest concentration of mobile devices on the planet for the last 25 years. I don't know why in Portugal (for example) people still consider recorded music to be important enough that they spend on average about 30x more on hi-fi than we do, or why over the border in Spain, they spend even less than we do.

I really don't have a dog in the entry-level fight anymore. We have the advantage here of having enough magazines that they can each carve out their own niche. Nevertheless, I keep abreast of what's happening in all aspects of the market. And there simply isn't much of a horde of proto-hi-fi enthusiasts out there waiting to find the best thing they can for the lowest price. Or any price, for that matter.

They are doing precisely what your youngest son did, and looking at all our old audio gear as antique technology that were obsoleted by smartphones and headphones a decade ago.
Yeh, but that's because my kit looks like it came out of the ark.;) I thought Simon's comment ( i think it was Simon) about having a "cool" champion for a product was really valid. Look at how vinyl replay and turntables became popular in the 90s and beyond when everyone wanted to be a DJ. It was cool! This has in the long term led to an increase in vinyl sales.
Perhaps what is at fault is the yoofs (and I wasn't only banging on about the yoof) do see good quality sound reproduction as being the preserve of funny old blokes with beards and leather patches on their elbows - all 1970s Open University lecturer and St Bernard pipe tobacco. If this is the case then it is the fault of the main stream hifi media for portraying it in this fashion for the last 30 years. Lets face it, reading the majority of specialist magazines is akin to reading a scientific journal (and my publication is no doubt as guilty as the next) - where's the cool, where's the convenience and where is the appeal for people brought up with so much more choice in where they get their musical kicks.
Perhaps I'm flogging a dead horse in my little campaign...I really don't know. What I do know (or believe) is that continuing down the same path the hifi industry has been going down for the last 30 years will lead to an increasingly "ghettoised" industry that will become the preserve of old blokes with beards, elbow patches...... or the very wealthy. Does this matter in the great schem of things...probably not.

[aquapiranha]

The way I see it, is that it is just life. The way people listen to music has always been changing since we were able to record it. You can either embrace that change or not as you choose. The hifi industry left it too late and missed the boat and now are trying desperatly to catch up. Then there is the alienation that foo brings to the party ~ does anyone really believe that kind of thing is going to be embraced by todays youth or the generations to come? As a whole we are out of touch and very uncool :-) kids today do not want to be tied to a collection of boxes in the lounge like us, they want music where they are at all times and that is just the way it is. Trying to keep hifi as it is might be a noble thing to do but ultimatly it is likely to be pointless in the context of the digital generation. So I do not worry about it and enjoy things the way I want to while accepting that change is inevitabile - life is too short :-)


Sent from my E10i using Tapatalk

[stupinder]

The way I see it, is that is just life. The way people listen to music has always been changing since we were able to record it. You can either embrace that change or not as you choose. The hifi industry left it too late and missed the boat and now are trying desperatly to catch up. Then there is the alienation that foo brings to the party ~ does anyone really believe that kind of thing is going to be embraced by todays youth or the generations to come? As a whole we are out of touch and very uncool :-) kids today do not want to be tied to a collection of boxes in the lounge like us, they want music where they are at all times and that is just the way it is. Trying to keep hifi as it is might be a noble thing to do but ultimatly it is likely to be pointless in the context of the digital generation. So I do not worry about it and enjoy things the way I want to while accepting that change is inevitabile - life is too short :-)


Sent from my E10i using Tapatalk
I agree with this statement, but I also think that as young people mature their outlook becomes less "mobile" and becomes more home-centric. That is, perhaps the mobile format that is so precious to them when they are younger will become less important as they spend more time at home with their families and kids.
The point is that if they believe that good quality sound is a given prerequisite (and i thoroughly believe that if they are exposed to it they will embrace it) then their mobile device may in future be used with better ancillary equipment when they "settle down".

On a related matter - I do believe that there is a wholesale change in attitudes to actually owning music with the younger generations - look at the popularity of Spotify. To me this is completely alien as I like to have "things"...physical things that clutter up my house and need attention. The belief however for me remains the same - this music, whether owned or rented, should be of the highest quality possible. I'll be interested to see how the Pono thing that Neil Young is championing takes off with none-audiophiles.

[Alan Sircom]

Yeh, but that's because my kit looks like it came out of the ark.;) I thought Simon's comment ( i think it was Simon) about having a "cool" champion for a product was really valid. Look at how vinyl replay and turntables became popular in the 90s and beyond when everyone wanted to be a DJ. It was cool!

Agreed, and there is a move in audio to look into this very topic. Unfortunately, 'cool' appears to be the most marketable and therefore financially worthwhile asset anyone can own at this time. To find a 'brand ambassador' for hi-fi in among those who might influence today's potential hi-fi buyers is extraordinarily expensive. Paying someone like Jessie J the equivalent of 1/10th the turnover of the whole UK audio industry simply to occasionally mention that she listens to music on her hi-fi isn't really a viable proposition.

Artists now consider themselves to be very much a brand, and that brand can be essentially licensed out for lucrative contracts. The successful ones employ brand consultants and managers to ensure their brand doesn't get diluted or allied to something that would undermine its success. Most of us know or know of recording artistes who own expensive audio equipment, but none of them would be willing (or even able) to pollute their own brand by supporting something like audio.

Let's put it this way: Beats is probably the single most fashionable audio brand on the planet right now. There are a lot of videos of bands singing in the studio wearing Beats headphones instead of the Beyer DT100s they really use in the studio. In most cases, that's down to Beats paying - and paying healthily - for that product placement. Beats can do that and we can't because right now that one brand turns over about twice as much money as the entire hi-fi industry.

[Welder]

Not sure i follow you there John :scratch:
A...

Let me elaborate a bit then Anthony.

It would be helpful if first we dispensed with the idea that Hi End audio has much to do with quality sound reproduction.

What also tend to get overlooked is a great many young non audiophiles aren’t anything like as gullible as we were/are and realize that excellent audio can be obtained from a relatively modest outlay, particularly with a headphone and file based setup.

There is so much information available on the internet regarding the audibility of many of the claimed benefits of much Hi End audio kit that anyone who has a genuine interest in audio can’t fail to come to the conclusion that most of the claims are bullshit. It doesn’t really matter whether you, or I, or anyone else, interested in audio have doubts about double blind tests, or believe that there may be more to hear than we can measure, the current weight of evidence suggests that competently designed audio equipment sounds similar enough to the average and often expert listener for them to be unable to distinguish between one component and another in a properly set up comparison.
Nor does it matter what an individual states he or she can hear in their own system. When such claims have been put to the test under controlled conditions the failure rate has been high enough to discredit such claims.

So the answer is for those who are involved in the Hi End audio market is to make equipment that is both measurably and audibly better than their competitors, and/or produce equipment at an affordable price rather than stuffing a few esoteric components in fancy boxes, getting a couple of friendly trade reviewers to wax lyrical about huge sonic improvements that no objective tests can confirm and charging a fortune for supposedly developing a technology that has been around for fifty odd years.
Hi End audio fails on all counts.

What I find particularly interesting is it isn’t those who are the end users that are complaining about the state of the industry; It’s those who have a financial interest in the industry.
I think it's great that there is a generation, apparently, who are not going to be supporting the largely fraudulant manufacturers by "spending their hard earned on upgrades". If this just leaves a wealthy gullible old audiophile group and times are getting hard for the Hi Fi Industry then I for one dont have much sympathy.

[bobbasrah]

An interesting synopsis John, and one with which I suspect many will be nodding in agreement, particularly the allegedly under-appreciating younger audience. With several generations of kids having grown up with computers, the disdain with which file based audio (and God forbid - video) was regarded, probably did no favours either, irrespective of how that has subsequently changed.

You could have added the media industry to "I think it's great that there is a generation, apparently, who are not going to be supporting the largely fraudulant manufacturers by "spending their hard earned on upgrades"." for the exact same reason. This greed and control spawned levels of piracy that will be virtually impossible to reverse.

[Alan Sircom]

Let me elaborate a bit then Anthony.

It would be helpful if first we dispensed with the idea that Hi End audio has much to do with quality sound reproduction.

Helpful for your argument, perhaps. Rather dismissive of a lot of people's passion for quality sound reproduction, IMO. If you think about it for a second, including yourself!



What also tend to get overlooked is a great many young non audiophiles aren’t anything like as gullible as we were/are and realize that excellent audio can be obtained from a relatively modest outlay, particularly with a headphone and file based setup.

I don't think 'gullible' is the right word; 'impassioned' is closer. Sometimes those who are impassioned let their passion get the better of them. A concern here is that we audio journalists are supposed to be at once 'campaigning expert' and 'über-enthusiast'. So the audio writers get impassioned when they should be dispassionate. The odd thing is, all indications suggest the readers don't want dispassionate reviews; the rare times I've been pinned to a wall by someone angry at a less-than-positive review, it's always been by a reader, upset that their 'fave' didn't get a 'fave rave'.

And yes, a generation is getting very good sound out of headphones and file-based music. The same problem that traditional audio faces is hitting the headphone community fast. And this one really can't be laid at the door of the nasty Black Hats in the hi-fi industry. The early adopters of this new headphone revolution are now listening at home, and they have very quickly upped the ante with headphone amps costing tens of dollars to ones costing thousands. The cheap ones are now starting to be sold on for peanuts and the companies planning on making the next generation of budget headphone amps are now looking at devices that cost several orders of magnitude more because their target market is swamped. Those existing budget headphone amps aren't built to last and aren't built to repair and when they die, there will be no immediate replacements because the manufacturers are moving onwards and upwards. They are beginning to perceive the budget headphone amp market as not being a place worth dealing in, so later generations of headphone owners wanting something more than just their iPhone will have to spend hundreds or more just to buy into the game. Sound familiar?



There is so much information available on the internet regarding the audibility of many of the claimed benefits of much Hi End audio kit that anyone who has a genuine interest in audio can’t fail to come to the conclusion that most of the claims are bullshit. It doesn’t really matter whether you, or I, or anyone else, interested in audio have doubts about double blind tests, or believe that there may be more to hear than we can measure, the current weight of evidence suggests that competently designed audio equipment sounds similar enough to the average and often expert listener for them to be unable to distinguish between one component and another in a properly set up comparison.
Nor does it matter what an individual states he or she can hear in their own system. When such claims have been put to the test under controlled conditions the failure rate has been high enough to discredit such claims.

Why do you own a farm of modified amplifiers, and especially valve amplifiers, when everything on the internet tells you (over and over again) that amplifiers make no difference at all under normal conditions? You would no more soup up a power amp than you would hot rod a washing machine if you thought it made no difference to performance, so I don't see why this is important to you.


So the answer is for those who are involved in the Hi End audio market is to make equipment that is both measurably and audibly better than their competitors, and/or produce equipment at an affordable price rather than stuffing a few esoteric components in fancy boxes, getting a couple of friendly trade reviewers to wax lyrical about huge sonic improvements that no objective tests can confirm and charging a fortune for supposedly developing a technology that has been around for fifty odd years.
Hi End audio fails on all counts.


There are two ways of looking at this. First way is that we already have such products; the Devialet D-Premier is measurably superior to everything you own. Whether these are audibly superior in your system depends on how tweaked your speakers are to suit your electronics, but on a level playing field, I would expect it to annihilate your current equipment. If in the event of the remote possibility that it didn't, then replacing the Devialet with a Berning ZOTL Pre One/ZH-230 would do a similarly destructive job (once again, speakers permitting). These aren't the only games in town (Ayre's MX-R and KX-R, the SMc VRE-1C preamp and more would do the same, and I could make similar statements about your source and loudspeakers) but they are fresh in my mind. I'm sorry if this doesn't fit in with your ideological opposition to high-end, but sometimes reality has to get in the way of things.

The other way of looking at this is the series of double-blind tests way of things. But, reflected in that light, you are just another loony high-ender wasting vast sums of money on things that make no difference. We question the worth of double blind listening tests not because the high-end fails to pass muster, but because under that sort of controlled conditions I doubt you'd be able to tell your system apart from a pair of B&W MM1 computer speakers. Not that the MM1s are bad (far from it, in fact), but that's approaching the level to which double-blind tests reduce audio.




What I find particularly interesting is it isn’t those who are the end users that are complaining about the state of the industry; It’s those who have a financial interest in the industry.
I think it's great that there is a generation, apparently, who are not going to be supporting the largely fraudulant manufacturers by "spending their hard earned on upgrades". If this just leaves a wealthy gullible old audiophile group and times are getting hard for the Hi Fi Industry then I for one dont have much sympathy.

Er, this thread wasn't started by someone in the industry, AFAIK. I've made my comments because I felt there were some aspects of what has been said that needed clarification, because I access to data on the market (both within the UK and outside).

[Welder]

What can I tell you Alan? Not much it seems. ;)

Let me start with my post wasn’t directed at the OP (Neil) although I believe he does have or has had financial interests in the Hi Fi business. It’s getting hard to find anyone on AoS who doesn’t.

Next, what better witness than a “loony” who has tweaked built and listened to a range of equipment over the years (?)

Unfortunately, you seem to have read “you” rather than “we” in my post. So, sure, pointing out that I’m as gullible as the next guy and have spent considerable time and expense in pursuit of better audio may initially seem like a smart response but a bit of reading on this forum might suggest that despite some of the extreme lengths I’ve gone to I still don’t seem to be able to join the faithful and bend my knee to the prophets of Hi End audio.

I’ve had some interesting amps here recently, the NAD M2 for example. Did it annihilate my Exposures……No.

I have a rather nice file server which I’ve also put a great deal of effort and money into. Does it annihilate a well set up laptop……….No.
When I had the top of the range NuForce kit here, did it persuade me that it was vastly superior to my kit….No.
Are my custom built speakers capable of showing any differences if they should be there…….probably, they’ll annihilate, as you put it, most commercial offerings I’ve heard. I can always resort to my valve based headphone amp and borrow my mates HD 800 if I’m in any doubt.

Oddly, I don’t appear to be deaf according to my last hearing test either so apart from my obvious distaste for Hi End audio clouding my senses the possibility exists that the huge improvements don’t in fact exist and the differences touted by the Hi Fi Press and manufactureres are as I stated, bullshit.

I’m not for a moment saying all equipment sounds the same; as you so astutely point out, I would be a total fool for even bothering to make a comparison, let alone build and modify if I believed it a pointless exercise from the outset.

The point is, the differences are small.
You may question the validity of ABX testing as much as you like but it’s reasonable to suggest that if there were large differences between competently designed amplifiers for example, then even those who have no idea what to listen for should be able to differentiate between products sometimes costing twenty times more.

The Hi Fi industry has always been reluctant to involve itself in ABX comparisons.
However, in the list of links below you can find some tests entered into by your peers, albeit grudgingly at times. Not only didn’t they fare too well, they seemed to think the tests were fair. I mean, they wouldn’t have entered if they didn’t believe they were in with a fighting chance would they. ;)

Of course, next comes the “well it’s the law of diminishing returns” that applies to any luxury goods market. I don’t have a problem with diminishing returns but one can hardly expect me to howl with delight on being told that I’ll have to listen very very carefully to understand where that extra twenty grand went.

I doubt you or many others here will read them but if you want to take both sides into account before you put your hands in your pockets they make interesting and informative reading. Better still, ABX any equipment you’re interested in buying yourself. It’s not that hard to do. Here is how to.

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm

just dont try to set it up in your local High End store. For some unkown reason they don't like it.:eyebrows::D

http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=3580
http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm

Btw Alan. Having been the person who suggested we here at AoS run this album club I've been rather disapointed to find you haven't contributed. While I can appreciate you're busy reviewing equipment etc, you do seem to have time to write fairly extensive posts in defence of your trade.

[Spectral Morn]

Er, this thread wasn't started by someone in the industry, AFAIK. I've made my comments because I felt there were some aspects of what has been said that needed clarification, because I access to data on the market (both within the UK and outside).

Actually to clarify that point yes I was and in away still am (as is Stu of HiFi Pig), having been involved in the specialist audio retail trade from 1989 to 1995. Spent a bit of time working in a record shop and I was then involved in brown goods retailing for nearly 6 years, before going back to specialist audio retailing as a shop manager. That was up until around about three years ago;at which time I was made redundant (but that is a whole different story) I now earn a crust as a S/H book seller. AIHFA is a non profit no income title.

Interestingly my time in early specialist Audio retailing was during the CD boom years and my time in Brown goods coincided with the DVD retailing boom time and beginnings of low res digital (MP3 etc) I now find myself in the book trade at a time of change as well.

While it is true I don't actively involve myself in doing any paid work in audio retail, bar occasionally giving advice/help to a friend from time to time (unpaid I hasten to add) and I have also for over the last two years been running Adventures in High Fidelity Audio my attempt to bring comprehensiveness back to subjective Audio Reviewing and Show Reports (a particular passion for me) as I think way too many magazine reviews now days focus on product description, functionality and not enough on how the product sounds. Show reports are often these days a few photos and no real text; hardly comprehensive coverage.

I felt Stu's original premise was too shallow and missing the big picture, (which is why I started this thread) the thing is the actuality of what I termed the 'disconnect' is massive and complex and no one thing is probably to blame, but I do feel that the path digital has taken us down is a factor in this process; as the way people interact with digital media and how it is accessed is very different from analogue. I think it has brought a high degree of casualness to things including the 'good enough' aspect. Society and culture has changed and in many ways the big technology players and the media are responsible for providing the catalysts for this imho.

Alan I particularly think your recent comments in the current HiFi+ are relevant re the 'good enough' society to this disconnect as this is another part of the jigsaw.

This is a complicated topic but it would be nice to be able to find away of re connecting people to take the time to listen to music in more depth and with better quality.


Regards D S D L

[Alan Sircom]

What can I tell you Alan? Not much it seems. ;)

Let me start with my post wasn’t directed at the OP (Neil) although I believe he does have or has had financial interests in the Hi Fi business. It’s getting hard to find anyone on AoS who doesn’t.

Next, what better witness than a “loony” who has tweaked built and listened to a range of equipment over the years (?)

Unfortunately, you seem to have read “you” rather than “we” in my post. So, sure, pointing out that I’m as gullible as the next guy and have spent considerable time and expense in pursuit of better audio may initially seem like a smart response but a bit of reading on this forum might suggest that despite some of the extreme lengths I’ve gone to I still don’t seem to be able to join the faithful and bend my knee to the prophets of Hi End audio.

I’ve had some interesting amps here recently, the NAD M2 for example. Did it annihilate my Exposures……No.

I have a rather nice file server which I’ve also put a great deal of effort and money into. Does it annihilate a well set up laptop……….No.
When I had the top of the range NuForce kit here, did it persuade me that it was vastly superior to my kit….No.
Are my custom built speakers capable of showing any differences if they should be there…….probably, they’ll annihilate, as you put it, most commercial offerings I’ve heard. I can always resort to my valve based headphone amp and borrow my mates HD 800 if I’m in any doubt.

Oddly, I don’t appear to be deaf according to my last hearing test either so apart from my obvious distaste for Hi End audio clouding my senses the possibility exists that the huge improvements don’t in fact exist and the differences touted by the Hi Fi Press and manufactureres are as I stated, bullshit.

I’m not for a moment saying all equipment sounds the same; as you so astutely point out, I would be a total fool for even bothering to make a comparison, let alone build and modify if I believed it a pointless exercise from the outset.

The point is, the differences are small.
You may question the validity of ABX testing as much as you like but it’s reasonable to suggest that if there were large differences between competently designed amplifiers for example, then even those who have no idea what to listen for should be able to differentiate between products sometimes costing twenty times more.

The Hi Fi industry has always been reluctant to involve itself in ABX comparisons.
However, in the list of links below you can find some tests entered into by your peers, albeit grudgingly at times. Not only didn’t they fare too well, they seemed to think the tests were fair. I mean, they wouldn’t have entered if they didn’t believe they were in with a fighting chance would they. ;)

Of course, next comes the “well it’s the law of diminishing returns” that applies to any luxury goods market. I don’t have a problem with diminishing returns but one can hardly expect me to howl with delight on being told that I’ll have to listen very very carefully to understand where that extra twenty grand went.

I doubt you or many others here will read them but if you want to take both sides into account before you put your hands in your pockets they make interesting and informative reading. Better still, ABX any equipment you’re interested in buying yourself. It’s not that hard to do. Here is how to.

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm

just dont try to set it up in your local High End store. For some unkown reason they don't like it.:eyebrows::D

http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=3580
http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm

Btw Alan. Having been the person who suggested we here at AoS run this album club I've been rather disapointed to find you haven't contributed. While I can appreciate you're busy reviewing equipment etc, you do seem to have time to write fairly extensive posts in defence of your trade.


So you've tried a few things and they don't wipe out your Exposures. Good for you. I've not tried the NAD or NuForce, so I can't comment on how good they are in absolute terms. I'm pretty confident though.

Large differences are easy to spot, and they don't need florid language either. A product is better than another if it delivers a wider or more accurate frequency response, a wider range of dynamic contrasts and a wider scope for different volume levels in any given room. Generally the first is a function of loudspeakers alone. The Berning amps are unequivocally better than practically everything else at the second, and the D-Premier is better than most things I've tried at the latter, which is why I am so confident about this.

Would the Berning or D-Premier be readily detected in a double-blind ABX test. Probably not. Practically nothing in audio can be detected in a double-blind ABX test (I played someone different versions of the same Beethoven movement and they couldn't hear the differences with any statistical confidence). I have performed hundreds of blind and double-blind tests over the years. I know their advantages and their limitations well. I also know that ABX is not and should not be the only double-blind test game in town (it's derived from a triangle test in food science, which has clearly defined limits in terms of utility that have been entirely overlooked in our branch of sensory science).

In the case of the D-Premier, its strength in controlling the loudspeakers well at a wide range of volume levels would never, ever be determined in the arid conditions of an ABX test because they are conducted at a preset volume level. People generally do not treat the volume control like that (have you ever heard someone say "I like this one. Keep the volume control precisely where it is"?). This doesn't invalidate the test, but it does call into question the real-world benefits of a test that discounts so fundamental a part of real-world listening.

Finally, I don't contribute to your album club because it would likely be the end of my tenure as editor. I am under contract. Aside from writing and editing the magazine, my contract extends to general magazine PR and defending the magazine and our industry's standing within the community. This would cross that line, and it would be seen as partisanship unless I also did the same for every other forum and our own site. At the very least, I would have my wings clipped. Again.

[Alan Sircom]

Actually to clarify that point yes I was and in away still am (as is Stu of HiFi Pig), having been involved in the specialist audio retail trade from 1989 to 1995. Spent a bit of time working in a record shop and I was then involved in brown goods retailing for nearly 6 years, before going back to specialist audio retailing as a shop manager. That was up until around about three years ago;at which time I was made redundant (but that is a whole different story) I now earn a crust as a S/H book seller. AIHFA is a non profit no income title.

Interestingly my time in early specialist Audio retailing was during the CD boom years and my time in Brown goods coincided with the DVD retailing boom time and beginnings of low res digital (MP3 etc) I now find myself in the book trade at a time of change as well.

While it is true I don't actively involve myself in doing any paid work in audio retail, bar occasionally giving advice/help to a friend from time to time (unpaid I hasten to add) and I have also for over the last two years been running Adventures in High Fidelity Audio my attempt to bring comprehensiveness back to subjective Audio Reviewing and Show Reports (a particular passion for me) as I think way too many magazine reviews now days focus on product description, functionality and not enough on how the product sounds. Show reports are often these days a few photos and no real text; hardly comprehensive coverage.

I felt Stu's original premise was too shallow and missing the big picture, (which is why I started this thread) the thing is the actuality of what I termed the 'disconnect' is massive and complex and no one thing is probably to blame, but I do feel that the path digital has taken us down is a factor in this process; as the way people interact with digital media and how it is accessed is very different from analogue. I think it has brought a high degree of casualness to things including the 'good enough' aspect. Society and culture has changed and in many ways the big technology players and the media are responsible for providing the catalysts for this imho.

Alan I particularly think your recent comments in the current HiFi+ are relevant re the 'good enough' society to this disconnect as this is another part of the jigsaw.

This is a complicated topic but it would be nice to be able to find away of re connecting people to take the time to listen to music in more depth and with better quality.


Regards D S D L


OK, didn't know that. Original comment should be viewed in that light.

[Spectral Morn]

OK, didn't know that. Original comment should be viewed in that light.

No worries I just felt a clarification was required.

In general I prefer to keep my being a mod here separate from AIHFA, I have an AOS trade account for posts relating to AIHFA, as I prefer to keep the two as separate activities.


Regards D S D L

[bobbasrah]

I felt Stu's original premise was too shallow and missing the big picture, (which is why I started this thread) the thing is the actuality of what I termed the 'disconnect' is massive and complex and no one thing is probably to blame, but I do feel that the path digital has taken us down is a factor in this process; as the way people interact with digital media and how it is accessed is very different from analogue. I think it has brought a high degree of casualness to things including the 'good enough' aspect. Society and culture has changed and in many ways the big technology players and the media are responsible for providing the catalysts for this imho.


I wonder Neil if there is any real change per se.

Jukeboxes were very popular from my early youth even though they only played singles, and they were as far removed from the then hifi or listening to albums as you could get. Radio 1 etc expanded on that culture in much the same way (and still does), once pirate radio and Luxembourg had forced the hands of the authorities.
Whereas I grew up with classical LPs in the house, most of my mates never played anything but 45rpm vinyl.
Whereas my teenage years were with Pink Floyd on a Garrard or TOGWT, my mates were on the latest in the Top20 to play on their Dansette, or watching Top of the Pops on telly.
Is that difference in the culture of listening and appreciating not already in place before the digital age even became a realisable concept, where background music was the norm?

I would suggest that mainstream kids are doing nothing different today, with portability thrown in and the capability to load it with whatever they please due to the digital medium.

The quality of reproduction they have available now is light years ahead of what I recall at the same age....

[stupinder]

I wonder Neil if there is any real change per se.

Jukeboxes were very popular from my early youth even though they only played singles, and they were as far removed from the then hifi or listening to albums as you could get. Radio 1 etc expanded on that culture in much the same way (and still does), once pirate radio and Luxembourg had forced the hands of the authorities.
Whereas I grew up with classical LPs in the house, most of my mates never played anything but 45rpm vinyl.
Whereas my teenage years were with Pink Floyd on a Garrard or TOGWT, my mates were on the latest in the Top20 to play on their Dansette, or watching Top of the Pops on telly.
Is that difference in the culture of listening and appreciating not already in place before the digital age even became a realisable concept, where background music was the norm?

I would suggest that mainstream kids are doing nothing different today, with portability thrown in and the capability to load it with whatever they please due to the digital medium.

The quality of reproduction they have available now is light years ahead of what I recall at the same age....
Interesting -I grew up in pubs and my access to music was restricted to the juke box or Sunday afternoons in the car with Jimmy Saville. All singles.
I then got into listening to music and albums in my mid teens through to being 20 or so when house kicked off and I started to DJ. This again led me down the singles route and I would audition new music very quickly by skipping through new records I was sent - same in the record shop I had.
I mellowed a little and got back into listening to albums until i got a squeezebox a couple of years ago where i found myself flicking through tracks and barely listening to an album all the way through. I didn't like the experience at all as it wasn't relaxing!
The new formats, in my experience, make it too easy to "flick" so that unless a piece of music grabs you immediately it is forgotten and you've moved onto the next.

[Spectral Morn]

Interesting -I grew up in pubs and my access to music was restricted to the juke box or Sunday afternoons in the car with Jimmy Saville. All singles.
I then got into listening to music and albums in my mid teens through to being 20 or so when house kicked off and I started to DJ. This again led me down the singles route and I would audition new music very quickly by skipping through new records I was sent - same in the record shop I had.
I mellowed a little and got back into listening to albums until i got a squeezebox a couple of years ago where i found myself flicking through tracks and barely listening to an album all the way through. I didn't like the experience at all as it wasn't relaxing!
The new formats, in my experience, make it too easy to "flick" so that unless a piece of music grabs you immediately it is forgotten and you've moved onto the next.

That is very much part of the issue and in my opinion part of the disconnect.


Regards D S D L

[John]

Are people suggesting we have to much choice, to many formats and to many ways to experience Music. Over the last few years we seen a massive increase in how we can get hold of music, from purchasing vinyl to downloading to spotify and youtube. For me I love this it so much eaiser to discover new/old music (i had to tape trade with those few people as obsessed as me)
Music is now somethine we carry about with us it travels with us via Ipods and mobile phones, I personally rather listen and get immersed in a album but today most people want something that stylish, easy to transport, flexiable and cool.
I think if you want to work and create change you need to work with what people want rather than against it (or have a very strong vision of what you want to achieve and the means to back this up), the industry will either become more specialist or it will need to embrace this. If it becomes more specialist then the market will gradually become smaller and even more expensive.
As a teenager I just wanted to experience music I wanted to discover new bands, experience concerts and find obscure albums. I was having far to much fun to even think about HIFI.
I am now part of the modern day pipe and slipper brigade and perhaps so is everyone else here lol

[Tim]

+1, pretty much all of what John said.

The industry and artists have to adapt and from what I am seeing the artists are adapting, but the industry isn't, or is very slow. And like John when I was younger I was happy to swap cassette tapes with mates and would play music any-which way I could, the quality was a consideration but much lower down the list after the music. A HiFi was also way beyond my means and not that important, even a cheap one. I wanted to buy music and go to gigs first. I was also out of the house pretty much all the time, so wasn't inclined to sit in front of my turntable for hours - also, if you are a youngster, where do you put it? I would think most kids have computers and X-Boxes in their bedrooms, not racks and speakers.

I think young people's wants and desires haven't changed that much from when I was young and now that they have iPod's and smartphones, who needs a HiFi?

[chelsea]

Slightly ot but i hate wering heaphones which seems to be the norm for the kids.
I'd far rather listen through source - amp speakers or not at all.(except the radio at home).

Infact i hate headphones as much as i hate 5.1 systems.

[bobbasrah]

Slightly ot but i hate wering heaphones which seems to be the norm for the kids.
I'd far rather listen through source - amp speakers or not at all.(except the radio at home).

Infact i hate headphones as much as i hate 5.1 systems.

Not off topic really Stu, it is another element of the differences between ye olde traditional music listening and modern ways of doing things.:eyebrows:
The headphone and IEM market have never been so busy, my only misgivings being fashion over quality of reproduction. Not so much a disconnect as a generation gap....;)

[Werner Berghofer]

Stu,


i hate wering heaphones

if you’re talking about ear buds and other nasty things people drill into their ears I’m with you, but listening with high quality, full size circumaural headphones is a very different matter. These headphones offer a much better playback quality than expensive loudspeakers, require no room treatment and don’t force the listener to be keep seated exactly in the sweet spot.

Werner.

[jandl100]

It would be helpful if first we dispensed with the idea that Hi End audio has much to do with quality sound reproduction.


:scratch:

Why don't you just piss off then?

Presumably your mission here is to convince all the rest of us of the error of our ways. :rolleyes: You are the guardian of the One True Path. Although that is what you keep on saying of the rest of us. :rolleyes:

[Marco]

Indeed, although I don't want John to piss off...


It would be helpful if first we dispensed with the idea that Hi End audio has much to do with quality sound reproduction.


But that's a bullshit remark (a step too far), and indeed rather insulting to all on this forum who own "Hi End audio" systems and enjoy hearing superb sound reproduction from them - and have worked hard to achieve that.

Whilst John's entitled to his opinions, he would do well to remember that AoS is a specialised audio forum, populated by dedicated enthusiasts who will always go the extra mile, in order for their hi-fi systems to achieve the best sound. I sometimes wonder if he forgets where he is. We do not (and never will) represent 'the norm' - and thank fuck for that...

Therefore, our views expressed in this discussion (and in most discussions here) are not likely to run parallel to those of the general public, no matter their age! ;)

Marco.

[Welder]

Always slightly amusing when people responding to a post they find at odds with their personal views go plural on you, the inference being that everyone else apart from the poster they are responding to, holds the same view.

I could indeed “just piss off” but I think my view is as valid as anyone else’s who bothers to at least try to construct a reasonable and rational post that doesn’t actually go against the sites ethos and doesn’t resort to insults and name calling, despite representing a different view of a particular topic.

Of course, you are entitled to suggest that the only way to obtain quality audio is through buying Hi End equipment, but failing this then my statement that I think its helpful to separate Hi End audio from quality sound reproduction is quite reasonable. There are many contributors here who do not buy Hi End audio equipment and do have a genuine interest in (and I have no doubt get) high quality audio.

Interestingly, so far in this thread I’ve been called a hypocrite, a loony and now you’re suggesting I piss off. Are my points so difficult to counter with reason and at least an element of decorum?
I cant wait to read your product reviews. :eyebrows:

One of the topics that frequently crop up here on AoS is the silly money (one of Marco’s descriptions I believe) asked for a great deal of the Hi End audio that to many who post here, sounds no better, and often worse than equipment at a fraction of the cost. In fact I believe you have suggested as much with your enthusiasm for T class amplifiers at under a hundred pounds Jerry: hardly Hi End are they? ;)

[Marco]

John, I think before we go any further, you need to define what in your opinion, in terms of actual equipment, is represented by "Hi End audio"? Your quote above seems rather dismissive of anything which costs much more than, say, a T-amp! ;)

And it is that dismissive attitude which I object to and find inappropriate on what is, after all, a specialist audio forum.

For example, do you consider the kind of kit that I own qualifies as being "Hi End audio", or are you merely referring to the overpriced 'badge-fi', for 'badge snobs', which I frequently refer to on AoS, where the price tag rarely reflects the sonic capability of the equipment concerned?

Once that's done, we can see if we're singing from the same hymn sheet or not, as it were... :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

I don't know of a single member of AoS who is a 'badge snob' or has 'badge-fi'. I also know not a single person who has money to throw away. What I see here is an assembly of folk who, at different levels of expenditure, have all done their damndest to achieve the best sound they can and put the music first. Wherever you set the 'high end' threshold, it has very much to do with quality sound reproduction.

The fact that much can be achieved with little in no way negates the above.

[Welder]

Ohhhh, the temptation you put in my path Marco. :D

(How do I do this delicately?):eyebrows:

I think we are probably on the same page of the same book Marco but your book has a greater element of hand drawn illustration and gold leaf on the covers and you probably bought yours at full price from a bespoke bookshop, while I downloaded mine from pirate bay.

Despite this, the words I believe are virtually indistinguishable from one copy to another although your copy may have the odd bit of Old English and the occasional Latin phrase thrown in for good measure. ;)

[chelsea]

No i'am talking all headphones.
I just don't like wearing them.
As for sound quality i have heard some sound stunning ones over the years but i still hate wearing them.

Not through discomfort but i never feel relaxed wearing them.



Stu,



if you’re talking about ear buds and other nasty things people drill into their ears I’m with you, but listening with high quality, full size circumaural headphones is a very different matter. These headphones offer a much better playback quality than expensive loudspeakers, require no room treatment and don’t force the listener to be keep seated exactly in the sweet spot.

Werner.

[John]

For me with regards to headphones I believe music should have a physical element to it
(from going to lots of concerts) which is why I would have a preference for using speakers as oppossed to headphones, but understand this might not be possible for all and that others will have other preferences

[stupinder]

This was posted on another forum today and I thought it added to this debate quite nicely. It also supports my argument that exposing people to high quality hifi will make them care about reproduction in their own homes. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P4G66sQHDk&feature=youtu.be

[Welder]

Marco, I’ve done loads of “loony” stuff that no true objectivists would even consider to coax that little bit extra out of my kit.
I do have more faith in objective evaluation than most here I suppose but I would hardly describe myself as an Objectivist.
Maybe we need a new category…Rationalist perhaps.
I suppose a great deal depends on what we as individuals find works in our own systems. But, I do expect the audio enthusist to investigate what does and doesn't make a differnce in a rational and logical manner. Perhaps this is where the differnce lies between me and those who trust only in their ears.

For example, I believe I can hear differences between interconnects and source components, but have a great deal of difficulty hearing any differences between amplifiers (competent design assumed) and speaker cables.
I have picked out my speakers for example in double blind tests but have failed miserably with other components.

I certainly wouldn’t confine my description of High End to anything that cost more than a T amp; I would have T amps in that case and all my kit would fall in that price range I would assume.
Would I spend as much as you have on your system (?), probably not, even if I could afford it. There are imo other areas that I think would reap greater sonic benefits that cost less.

What I have problems with is those who seem to believe that there is a direct correlation between expenditure and audio quality. These people tend to buy what I might loosely describe as High End equipment and imo this is a view that the High End trade encourages.
So, High End audio in my view is more about the preconceptions and attitudes that underpin peoples buying strategy, if they have any strategy at all.

[Werner Berghofer]

John,


I believe music should have a physical element to it

that’s very true, and this is the one thing I certainly miss when listening via headphones.

Werner.

[jandl100]

Always slightly amusing when people responding to a post they find at odds with their personal views go plural on you, the inference being that everyone else apart from the poster they are responding to, holds the same view.

I could indeed “just piss off” but I think my view is as valid as anyone else’s who bothers to at least try to construct a reasonable and rational post that doesn’t actually go against the sites ethos and doesn’t resort to insults and name calling, despite representing a different view of a particular topic.

Of course, you are entitled to suggest that the only way to obtain quality audio is through buying Hi End equipment, but failing this then my statement that I think its helpful to separate Hi End audio from quality sound reproduction is quite reasonable. There are many contributors here who do not buy Hi End audio equipment and do have a genuine interest in (and I have no doubt get) high quality audio.

Interestingly, so far in this thread I’ve been called a hypocrite, a loony and now you’re suggesting I piss off. Are my points so difficult to counter with reason and at least an element of decorum?
I cant wait to read your product reviews. :eyebrows:

One of the topics that frequently crop up here on AoS is the silly money (one of Marco’s descriptions I believe) asked for a great deal of the Hi End audio that to many who post here, sounds no better, and often worse than equipment at a fraction of the cost. In fact I believe you have suggested as much with your enthusiasm for T class amplifiers at under a hundred pounds Jerry: hardly Hi End are they? ;)

Fuck me, John, we are so far away from singing off the same hymn sheet that I am at a complete loss as to where to start. It would just take way too long to wind back your deeply ingrained preconceptions, as evidenced by your response above, and I have no confidence AT ALL that you could comprehend my thoughts and opinions even if you could manage to correct those misconceptions. That bee in your bonnet is just buzzing way too loudly to let any other opinions into your skull.

Yes, I like some £60 T-amps. Yes, I like some multi-£k amps.
Your inability to comprehend how both those statements may be true just terminates any likelihood of useful communication between us.

[Marco]

Hi John,

As far as your definition of what represents 'high-end audio' is concerned, we're not too far apart, so let's leave that one there...


For example, I believe I can hear differences between interconnects and source components, but have a great deal of difficulty hearing any differences between amplifiers (competent design assumed) and speaker cables.


Surely you must mean 'competently designed' solid-state amplifiers? If so, I can understand (although not necessarily agree) with where you're coming from.

However, if you can't hear the difference between your average solid-state amplifier, and a good valve amp - jeez, there are even very significant sonic differences between single-ended and push-pull designs, never mind anything else - then I can only conclude one of the following:

a) You've not listened to many valve amps and/or those you've heard have been crap.

b) You're deaf.

I strongly suspect that it's not 'b)' ;)

Marco.

[ursus262]

All the hand-wringing that is being expressed on this thread is amusing!

A few days ago, in a separate thread about hi-def audio, I said this:


"Every piece of hi-fi equipment we own is an engineered component taking into account the laws of physics from which engineering principles are derived. The bits that really makes the difference, are the acoustics of the listening room and the perceptions of the listener - psychoacoustics. These are the variables that can't be measured because we, as human beings, are immensely complex and it's impossible to account for all these variables.

Also, a neutral-sounding system, is a system that presents the listener with an absolute facsimile of what was present in the concert hall when the recording was made. That is what hi-fi is all about, surely! Anything else that gives us the sound we actually want is coloration - nothing more and nothing less, and it is here that the subjective comes into play. Much about what is discussed on this forum is not about hi-fi at all, it's about finding a combination of kit that entertains us, which is something different entirely."

By choosing a system that entertains is, and which is satisfying to listen to, surely, is choosing a coloured system which appeals to our (subjective) tastes. I am not sure that this is what hi-fi is supposed to be about.

Our hi-fi systems, looked at objectively, are engineered components but they are never perfect no matter how much you spend on them. There never will be a completely uncoloured set up as the components interact with each other. Surely there are actually two approaches: attempting to achieve perfection; or, finding a compromise that suits our needs. I believe that this forum is about the latter rather than the former.

[Spectral Morn]

This is really about a 'disconnection' from listening to music in a more serious way compared to the more casual way the majority do it.

To my mind since digital came along and the series of carrier developments that have come out of it, the way folks listen to music has changed. It has become more casual and more as back ground music and listening has become something only a few do. Music has as a result of digital become a commodity and is a lowest common denominator thing not to be treasured in the way I feel it once was. This was never a majority activity but more of the populace did it more seriously, once upon a time, than we have doing it to day; in my view.

Yes it would be great if more folks engaged with music more seriously and then as a result bought better equipment to listen to it with. This does not need to be high end just better than a low rez file on a phone or PC/Mac.

This argument about high end vs low end gear etc is a waste of time and effort as it is the thing we play on this gear that is at the heart of the disconnect.

Welders comments frustrate me as frankly I wonder how much good gear he has heard, how many well put together systems he has sampled over the years as I just can't get my head round his expressed attitude re audio. However it is his opinion and while it frustrates me no end and how he expresses it he is entitled to it. I just wish I could hear his set up and he hear mine and then we go on a road trip sampling lots of quality set ups so I could get an understanding why he says what he says. Of course he may be happy with the level of gear he has, the way it reproduces etc or he may not be able to hear (no insult intended by that btw) the differences (amazed by that as I always am as frankly many differences improvements I hear are drive a bus through huge in nature) thus what he has is good enough. Its a mystery I would love to look into as I would with others who express similar opinions.

One of the problems with Stu's view re 'letting folks hear better and it will encourage them to get better' is something not borne out by my experience I have let many people hear quality music on quality gear over the years in retail premises and at home and only a very tiny number have bought into it and none of those visiting my home. I am talking about civilians here not audio enthusiasts as they are already enthused by music and listening to it with attention. I have had many blown away by music on my various set ups but no conversions were made.... go figure.

Lets get back to talking about how we can re-engage people to listening to music more seriously and not as a lowest common denominator activity.


Regards D S D L

[Welder]

That’s fine Jerry. Probably best not to respond to my posts then, particularly given it seems you are more intent abusing the person who posts rather than deal with the post subject matter.
Go swap some boxes son. ;)

Marco.

I haven’t heard many valve amps Marco. I don’t know if those I have heard are crap or not. I’ve heard most of the Quad range at one point or another and a number of other commercially available units that appear to be well regarded, but not in direct comparison in a system I’m familiar with more often than not, or under what I consider to be fair comparison conditions. I’ve even owned a couple and have a reasonably well regarded valve based headphone amp.

I think the fair comparison bit may be where I differ from many who post here.
I do attempt to balance the channels, match impedances, listen at a fixed volume etc and dare I write, ABX test when possible. I can’t help it, it’s what I’ve been taught to do over the years. :)

Most of the people I know who are interested in audio come from Pro audio backgrounds and their approach is what I’ve come to accept as normal. Pro audio doesn’t really do valves these days, or even vinyl so getting to critically listen to such equipment is pretty difficult for me.
I tend to get to hear what my friends and associates have, as I would assume do most who contribute here.

I don’t in general read the Hi Fi press or contribute on other forums although I have read a great deal on various forums over the years; right back to when a number who post here were following the particular audio fashions of the time.

I can only go by what my experiences of audio equipment have been.
As for massive sonic differences between components in a properly set up system; well that hasn’t been my experience Marco, small differences and sometimes because of unexpected factors that I couldn’t explain in any scientific terms.

[MartinT]

This was posted on another forum today and I thought it added to this debate quite nicely. It also supports my argument that exposing people to high quality hifi will make them care about reproduction in their own homes. :-)

Michael Fremer always writes intelligent material for Stereophile and his story about the kid who wanted to write about audiophiles in a negative way rings so true. There was such an article published in the Wall Street Journal some years ago and it dripped with vitriol, clear as day that the writer had never heard good reproduction. Fremer makes an excellent champion for our cause.

[MartinT]

What I have problems with is those who seem to believe that there is a direct correlation between expenditure and audio quality. These people tend to buy what I might loosely describe as High End equipment and imo this is a view that the High End trade encourages.
So, High End audio in my view is more about the preconceptions and attitudes that underpin peoples buying strategy, if they have any strategy at all.

I'll say it again, John. I don't know anyone I've met personally who buys like that. I do, however, know audiophiles with high end systems (yes, mine certainly rates as one by your reckoning) who really listen to equipment, single out outstanding components and use them irrespective of price. Jerry has been talking about mini-T amps recently and I just recently discovered a speaker cable that costs a fifth of mine and outperforms it. Your so-called price-oriented audiophile barely exists outside the world of a well-worn and tiresome joke.

[Marco]

I haven’t heard many valve amps Marco. I don’t know if those I have heard are crap or not. I’ve heard most of the Quad range at one point or another and a number of other commercially available units that appear to be well regarded, but not in direct comparison in a system I’m familiar with more often than not, or under what I consider to be fair comparison conditions. I’ve even owned a couple and have a reasonably well regarded valve based headphone amp.

I think the fair comparison bit may be where I differ from many who post here.
I do attempt to balance the channels, match impedances, listen at a fixed volume etc and dare I write, ABX test when possible. I can’t help it, it’s what I’ve been taught to do over the years.

Most of the people I know who are interested in audio come from Pro audio backgrounds and their approach is what I’ve come to accept as normal. Pro audio doesn’t really do valves these days, or even vinyl so getting to critically listen to such equipment is pretty difficult for me.


I think that hits the nail neatly on the head. My experience of Pro audio amps is that, sonically, they are rather 'much of a muchness', therefore I'm not surprised that you feel the way you do.... Valve amps are a totally different ball game.

The audio circles I move in are also very different from yours! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

I'll say it again, John. I don't know anyone I've met personally who buys like that.

There are plenty of badge-snobs in audio, Martin (I've known some, personally). Thankfully, however, I'm not aware of any such creatures on AoS - and long may it stay that way! ;)

Marco.

[John]

I guess what would worry me more would be if people stopped wanting to create music and learn how to play instruments I see no sign of that, my nephew 12 is learning drums much to his parents dismay

[MartinT]

...and my son is trying to make it as a career playing guitar and leading his band. His prospects are frankly slim but I support him in his dream as much as I can.

[John]

I remember that dream good luck to him

[Werner Berghofer]

Unfortunately my English is not sufficient for what I’m trying to express here, so I’ll keep my statement short and sweet:

I think music, society and culture have changed. In my opinion the sixties and the seventies of the last century were the most exciting and creative era for Pop and Rock music. The young folks had great hopes and optimistic expectations for a better future; a future full of love, freedom and equality. The most important and popular channel to articulate the wishes, dreams and desires of the young generation sincerely was music, followed by movies, fashion and life style.

Starting approximately in the early 1980’s the messages being transported and articulated in popular music became more and more irrelevant. Have a look at the themes and motives from the song lyrics; compare them to songs from the 1960’s and 1970’s. And nowadays, what are the future hopes and expectations of the young generation? Could it be that popular music has been reduced to a background soundtrack, a commodity item, because people found out that it’s not possible to change and improve the world in a way the young generation dreamed 35 or 45 years ago?

Maybe people don’t listen anymore that attentive and perceptive because popular music nowadays has much less to express and to tell?

“It’s only rock and roll, but I like it” (Rolling Stones, 1974)

“And there's no future” (Sex Pistols, 1977)

“’Cause the boy with the cold hard cash is always Mister Right, ’cause we are living in a material world” (Madonna, 1985)

Werner.

[stupinder]

...and my son is trying to make it as a career playing guitar and leading his band. His prospects are frankly slim but I support him in his dream as much as I can.
Any excuse to get this out. My youngest in our barn last November.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVzmgqULndE&context=C4e27dacADvjVQa1PpcFP4w9qZCylppq4SRsGlul9U _dqcPIAxli4=

He likes his ipod and mp3s:doh:

[Marco]

Unfortunately my English is not be sufficient for what I’m trying to express here, so I’ll keep my statement short and sweet:

I think music, society and culture have changed. In my opinion the sixties and the seventies of the last century were the most exciting and creative era for Pop and Rock music. The young folks had great hopes and optimistic expectations for a better future; a future full of love, freedom and equality. The most important and popular channel to articulate the wishes, dreams and desires of the young generation sincerely was music, followed by movies, fashion and life style.

Starting approximately in the early 1980’s the messages being transported and articulated in popular music became more and more irrelevant. Have a look at the themes and motives from the song lyrics; compare them to songs from the 1960’s and 1970’s. And nowadays, what are the future hopes and expectations of the young generation? Could it be that popular music has been reduced to a background soundtrack, a commodity item, because people found out that it’s not possible to change and improve the world in a way the young generation dreamed 35 or 45 years ago?

Maybe people don’t listen anymore that attentive and perceptive because popular music nowadays has much less to express and to tell?

“It’s only rock and roll, but I like it” (Rolling Stones, 1974)

“And there's no future” (Sex Pistols, 1977)

“’Cause the boy with the cold hard cash is always Mister Right, ’cause we are living in a material world” (Madonna, 1985)


Some relevant, interesting and thought-provoking insight there, Werner! :)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Indeed and taking the thread back in the direction I had hoped it would go in...


Regards D S D L

[Welder]

I don’t mean to be so frustrating Neil. :D
This was is the most recent audio set up I’ve listened to. I don’t know if this is what you consider to be a decent system.
As for mine, well the bits are good but in all honesty it doesn't sound at its best in this flat.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16805


Part of the problem is outlined quite well here by Alan Sircom. It needs careful reading.




Large differences are easy to spot, and they don't need florid language either. A product is better than another if it delivers a wider or more accurate frequency response, a wider range of dynamic contrasts and a wider scope for different volume levels in any given room. Generally the first is a function of loudspeakers alone. The Berning amps are unequivocally better than practically everything else at the second, and the D-Premier is better than most things I've tried at the latter, which is why I am so confident about this.

Would the Berning or D-Premier be readily detected in a double-blind ABX test. Probably not. Practically nothing in audio can be detected in a double-blind ABX test (I played someone different versions of the same Beethoven movement and they couldn't hear the differences with any statistical confidence). I have performed hundreds of blind and double-blind tests over the years. I know their advantages and their limitations well. I also know that ABX is not and should not be the only double-blind test game in town (it's derived from a triangle test in food science, which has clearly defined limits in terms of utility that have been entirely overlooked in our branch of sensory science).

In the case of the D-Premier, its strength in controlling the loudspeakers well at a wide range of volume levels would never, ever be determined in the arid conditions of an ABX test because they are conducted at a preset volume level. People generally do not treat the volume control like that (have you ever heard someone say "I like this one. Keep the volume control precisely where it is"?). This doesn't invalidate the test, but it does call into question the real-world benefits of a test that discounts so fundamental a part of real-world listening.

The majority of people expect to hear large differences between a system costing say thirty thousand and say five thousand.
The non audiophile public tends to believe in science and technology and if from their own experiences they can’t hear a major difference between mp3 and redbook and mp3 is cheaper and they can store more music, then that’s what they’ll go for, particularly if the science says they are unlikely to hear a difference.

If you want more non audiophiles to take a serious interest in quality audio reproduction then somehow you must persuade them that it is worth paying the extra for small improvements rather than what seems to be more and more common, give exaggerated reports of vast sonic differences that don’t actually exist.
Some of the more balanced reports of the CAC room at the recent show help to demonstrate this.

I recently heard the new istreamer from HRT attached to an ithingy holding fixed bit rate 320 mp3 files through a set of Beyerdynamic DTX 101ie. It sounded really good.

How you persuade people that the proper way to listen to music is sat still in front of a Hi Fi is pretty much a lost cause I think Neil. This isn’t how people started listening to music I imagine, and it certainly wasn’t how I started. I remember being most put out when they started putting seats in concert venues and actively discouraged people from dancing.
This sit in front of the Hi Fi business only came about within the last 50 years, primarily because of audiophiles, the majority of music lovers are not audiophiles. What about all those years before audio equipment. These people, by your presentation can’t have fully appreciated music.
A great many people who love music don’t even own a Hi Fi let alone spend thousands of pounds on listening equipment.
What exactly is it you are trying to put right? Is your concern for the state of the Hi Fi industry or for the appreciation of music? If it’s the later, then I don’t think you need worry, music is alive and well. If its for the Hi Fi industry then a start would be to bring back the more technical and objective reviews there were when I started out. This primarily subjective reviewing style is relatively recent and has imo done nothing but damage the industry because it puts it directly at odds with the professionals who both make and record the music who tend to be of a similar opinion to those that I put forward that you have problems with.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi John

I don't think sitting rigidly between the speakers is an absolute. A well put together system can sound very good off axis and even from another part of the room.

My early days were spent listening to music on various music centres and the first time I upgraded to a Rotel 820A, Ariston Q Deck and Celestion speakers. I recall hearing the multiple guitar parts on Heart's Dog and Butterfly track and for the first time and this was while lying on my bed not sitting between the speakers. I heard more info, more depth richness to the music, plus all the elements were more obvious.

It was that experience and what followed that hooked me. I had heard a quality audio set up in a friends house and looked in his hifi magazines. That influenced me but it was hearing my own music, in my own room that launched me on the journey I am still on.

I have heard small differences, both plus and minus, side ways steps, big improvements and massive ones through out my audio life and I can't recall a time of never hearing a difference.

I have looked after my ears and always worn ear protection when going to concerts so I guess that may well have something to do with things.

I guess I want to get inside your head and hear what you hear or at the very least be with you and try and compare notes etc. Sadly not going to happen but I am fascinated by this aspect of things i.e what people hear and don't hear.



Regards D S D L

[Marco]

If its for the Hi Fi industry then a start would be to bring back the more technical and objective reviews there were when I started out.


Each to his or her own, I guess, but those have never done anything for me, other than bore me to tears... How many people today, do you think, possess the technical knowledge to properly understand the measurements given, thus resulting in it being of significant use?

I much prefer subjective-type reviews, where the writer is able to successfully portray what he or she is hearing, through the clever use of descriptive prose (not flowery meaningless waffle, however), which enables me to relate in a tangible way to what they're describing about the equipment under review, and thus pique my interest sufficiently to look into the product(s) further. But unfortunately, that's a skill which few reviewers possess. Sadly, most tip the balance towards writing meaningless waffle.

Also, getting to know someone's sonic tastes and priorities, in terms of how recorded music is reproduced (friends, or members of forums and/or reviewers); in effect, people whose ears you trust and whose priorities are similar to your own, I find is the best way of obtaining a good handle on whether you're liable to like a certain product or not - and eons better than reading reams of yawn-inducing scientific dribble, accompanied by some squiggly graphs, often penned by a hack with a personality bypass! ;)

Marco.

[Lodgesound]

Is that your turntable in your profile pic Marco?..........lovely lovely lovely Technics SL-1000.......mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......!!!

Or is it an SL-10 - I can never remember....

[Marco]

It's an 'SP12', Stewart - do you like it? :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Welder]

Neil.

Yep, I know my writing style is a bit…well…but it often seems I'm a lone voice amoung the faithful suggesting that perhaps the world isn't really flat after all.
But, I promise you I am just as passionately interested in audio as you are.
I’m in my late 50’s Neil and I’ve been into music since I sat in front of the family’s radiogram listening Caroline Pirate radio way back.
My hearing is pretty good for my age; I don’t hear some harmonics as well as I might apparently and like most at my age, year on year my ability to hear the higher frequencies diminishes; I’m around 15KHz atm.

It really isn’t that I can’t hear differences Neil. It didn’t take me long to decide that the first HRT music streamer I bought sounded considerably better than the midrange CD player I had to put up with at the time for example, or decide that despite the rational, I do prefer the sound of a Linux based file server to a Windows based. My system is at that point where I think it would take a very exceptional piece of equipment to make me go Wow, partly because of my not so popular here method of assessing changes and partly because the environment the kit operates in severely limits the more delicate changes upgrades after a certain standard make.

It’s not that some of the equipment I’ve had here hasn’t sounded different, it has, but to my ears and in what is a rather carefully set up system I can’t say in all truthfulness that the changes have sounded dramatically better.

A further problem is I’m technically minded and very inquisitive. Being told by so called experts that such and such is better has never done it for me. I try to find out for myself and I try to make comparisons fair. Randomly plugging in various components into any system isn’t going to demonstrate much more than that person’s ignorance of what is and what isn’t important in getting quality audio, and in a well set up system that you are very familiar with, tells you virtually bugger all.

My speakers have a quite wide even polar response (around 34 degrees) and thankfully I don’t have to sit directly in front at a fixed distance to at least partially appreciate the audio quality.
It’s not that I don’t critically listen at all. But, I have music on when I’m home most of the time and while I wouldn’t find multi tasking at a classical concert a satisfactory listening experience, the horrible truth is much of the music I can tolerate on any stereo system is frankly crap and doesn’t require much concentration so I find I can do other stuff and not miss a lot.


Further, I do understand your distress at what I will describe as consumption listening rather than the interest in quality audio it seems you I and many others here have developed over the years. I tend to listen to acoustic music in small venues a lot these days and the general fidgeting and sending texts etc pisses me off as much as it does you I expect.

The thing is Neil, I’m for letting people decide for themselves how and what they listen to. I’ve heard some excellent sounding portable kit and if that does it for them then I’m good with that. I certainly don’t want to tempt the unwary down the path I took with “quality audio”. I don’t know which posts I’ve written you’ve read, but I’ve wasted (with regard to positive outcome at least) loads of time and for me, quite a lot of money in pursuit of better quality audio when more often than not, what I had was more than adequate.

[Lodgesound]

I do Marco.......I've always wanted one and never quite got round to getting one.........does it need a new loving home by any chance?

[Welder]

Each to his or her own, I guess, but those have never done anything for me, other than bore me to tears... How many people today, do you think, possess the technical knowledge to properly understand the measurements given, thus resulting in it being of significant use?

I much prefer subjective-type reviews, where the writer is able to successfully portray what he or she is hearing, through the clever use of descriptive prose (not flowery meaningless waffle, however), which enables me to relate in a tangible way to what they're describing about the equipment under review, and thus pique my interest sufficiently to look into the product(s) further. But unfortunately, that's a skill which few reviewers have. Sadly, most tip the balance towards writing meaningless waffle.

Also, getting to know someone's sonic tastes and priorities, in terms of how recorded music is reproduced (members of forums and/or reviewers); in effect, people whose ears you trust and whose priorities are similar to your own, I find is the best way of obtaining a good handle on whether you're liable to like a certain product or not - and eons better than reading yawn-inducing scientific dribble, accompanied by some squiggly graphs, often penned by a hack with a personality bypass! ;)

Marco.

I dont know Marco. I assume if people have an interest in a hobby then they get to uderstand some of how the stuff works as they go along if they aren't technically minded at the outset.
In fact, i dont see how one can get excellent audio without some technical knowledge; its a technical hobby. ;)

I know you're going to say you get someone else to deal with all that stuff for you, but in this case your technically minded friends should have told you not to spend any more money until you get those bloody wardrobes out of the box room and some from of accoustic room treatment sorted. :D

Yes I know I have similar problems mate but I'm in a rented flat and all you've got to overcome is yer missus. ;)

[Spectral Morn]

Neil.

Yep, I know my writing style is a bit…well…but it often seems I'm a lone voice amoung the faithful suggesting that perhaps the world isn't really flat after all.
But, I promise you I am just as passionately interested in audio as you are.
I’m in my late 50’s Neil and I’ve been into music since I sat in front of the family’s radiogram listening Caroline Pirate radio way back.
My hearing is pretty good for my age; I don’t hear some harmonics as well as I might apparently and like most at my age, year on year my ability to hear the higher frequencies diminishes; I’m around 15KHz atm.

It really isn’t that I can’t hear differences Neil. It didn’t take me long to decide that the first HRT music streamer I bought sounded considerably better than the midrange CD player I had to put up with at the time for example, or decide that despite the rational, I do prefer the sound of a Linux based file server to a Windows based. My system is at that point where I think it would take a very exceptional piece of equipment to make me go Wow, partly because of my not so popular here method of assessing changes and partly because the environment the kit operates in severely limits the more delicate changes upgrades after a certain standard make.

It’s not that some of the equipment I’ve had here hasn’t sounded different, it has, but to my ears and in what is a rather carefully set up system I can’t say in all truthfulness that the changes have sounded dramatically better.

A further problem is I’m technically minded and very inquisitive. Being told by so called experts that such and such is better has never done it for me. I try to find out for myself and I try to make comparisons fair. Randomly plugging in various components into any system isn’t going to demonstrate much more than that person’s ignorance of what is and what isn’t important in getting quality audio, and in a well set up system that you are very familiar with, tells you virtually bugger all.

My speakers have a quite wide even polar response (around 34 degrees) and thankfully I don’t have to sit directly in front at a fixed distance to at least partially appreciate the audio quality.
It’s not that I don’t critically listen at all. But, I have music on when I’m home most of the time and while I wouldn’t find multi tasking at a classical concert a satisfactory listening experience, the horrible truth is much of the music I can tolerate on any stereo system is frankly crap and doesn’t require much concentration so I find I can do other stuff and not miss a lot.


Further, I do understand your distress at what I will describe as consumption listening rather than the interest in quality audio it seems you I and many others here have developed over the years. I tend to listen to acoustic music in small venues a lot these days and the general fidgeting and sending texts etc pisses me off as much as it does you I expect.

The thing is Neil, I’m for letting people decide for themselves how and what they listen to. I’ve heard some excellent sounding portable kit and if that does it for them then I’m good with that. I certainly don’t want to tempt the unwary down the path I took with “quality audio”. I don’t know which posts I’ve written you’ve read, but I’ve wasted (with regard to positive outcome at least) loads of time and for me, quite a lot of money in pursuit of better quality audio when more often than not, what I had was more than adequate.

Hi John

Thank you for the insight, it is much appreciated and I think 'consumption listening' is an excellent way to describe the state of things today.

Yes I do indeed hate folks txting etc and talking during gigs.

Regards D S D :

[Marco]

I dont know Marco. I assume if people have an interest in a hobby then they get to uderstand some of how the stuff works as they go along if they aren't technically minded at the outset.
In fact, i dont see how one can get excellent audio without some technical knowledge; its a technical hobby.


I disagree. It may be a technical hobby for some, but for most subjectivists (who populate this and other audio forums, not to mention 'normal' folk), it's simply about wanting to hear their favourite music at its best. Therefore, they leave the technicalities to the experts and simply use their ears to judge the results.


I know you're going to say you get someone else to deal with all that stuff for you, but in this case your technically minded friends should have told you not to spend any more money until you get those bloody wardrobes out of the box room and some from of accoustic room treatment sorted. :D


Lol... Well, despite that, I seem to be getting 'half-decent' results, from a system I've assembled all by myself, with very little technical knowledge! ;)


Yes I know I have similar problems mate but I'm in a rented flat and all you've got to overcome is yer missus.

There aren't any "problems", dude. I have an awesome sounding system, a large and varied music collection, and a very understanding and loving wife, to boot... Life's a ball, and I couldn't be happier!! :ner:

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

It's an 'SP12', Stewart - do you like it?

That'd be a Licknics SP12 then!





Just to make a few comments if you don't mind:
To lay the blame for a perceived lack of interest in music and hi-fi at the existence of digital technology is a mistake I think.

We often hear about 'the glory days' when the hi-fi was the 3rd biggest household investment after house & car - the dealers were flogging stuff faster than they could get it in the door etc etc. Now then, in my experience, these purchases were more often than not little more than trophies for the owner to show his mates and willy wave about the 'number of watts my speakers are' on a Friday night boozer session. I honestly don't think there were too many intense & concentrated listening sessions going on a couple of months or so after the initial purchase.
Generally speaking, people get their music from crap sources & they always have, whether it was/is a little squawkbox radio at work/in the kitchen or car, a walkman or mp3 player and music to most people has always been something rather less important that it is to us - just there when you feel like it or as part of the background to life.
But nowadays I see an awful lot more people with wires coming out of their lug 'oles than I used to and I take this to mean that more people are getting something out of music than before. This has got to be a good thing and surely some of these folks will think about getting something a bit better at some time in the future?

[Werner Berghofer]

Chris,


[…] these purchases were more often than not little more than trophies for the owner to show his mates and willy wave about the 'number of watts my speakers are' on a Friday night boozer session […]

this was also exactly my impression the moment I first got in touch with the HiFi crowd, be it customers or sales people. And then there are the tinkers with their soldering irons, who care for snooping around inside their expensive model trains, studying frequency charts and “modding” their gear. For both groups music and lyrics are not really interesting or challenging.

I see some interesting parallels to certain relations between men and women: Bass and watt heavy trophy wives and modded Stepford wives with custom op-amps or valves. It’s not the woman itself which is interesting and enjoyable, but the ego boost in competition with other males. In the great movie “Elegy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0974554/)” there’s a scene where the 60+ literature professor David Kepesh (Ben Kingsley) incidentally turns on a McIntosh power amplifier before seducing 24 years old student Consuela Castillo (Penélope Cruz) in his fashionable Manhattan home.

Werner.

[MartinT]

Now then, in my experience, these purchases were more often than not little more than trophies for the owner to show his mates and willy wave about the 'number of watts my speakers are' on a Friday night boozer session. I honestly don't think there were too many intense & concentrated listening sessions going on a couple of months or so after the initial purchase.

Indeed Chris, since that type of sale has ceased owning a hi-fi system has become quite the differentiator. That's why I was questioning the idea that there are lots of trophy/badge-fi systems out there. I don't believe there are any more.

[John]

I think in the past HIFI was a asperiation for most, perhaps now it is in its right place?
I really do not see the badge/ trophy thing here. People seem to be taking a more pragmatic approach. I see a lot of people with a mixiture of gear and approaches.
I must admit I dislike being considered a audiophile (perhaps a reluctant audiophile lol) for me it is my passion for music that drives me.

[Spectral Morn]

I don't blame digital per se but rather how it has been implemented and been developed down to a lowest common denominator of low res mediocrity.


Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Hi Martin,


That's why I was questioning the idea that there are lots of trophy/badge-fi systems out there. I don't believe there are any more.

It's not about showing off a 'trophy' to your friends and neighbours anymore, as it once may have been, but rather for some to engage in one-upmanship and 'scoring points' on forums, populated by others of a similar mindset.

Thankfully, AoS is devoid of such turgid bullshite. It is, however, rife elsewhere.

There are also those who buy equipment almost solely on brand reputation and perceived 'prestige value', where certain 'badges' possess the desired cachet, with little or no thought as to how said equipment will integrate successfully into a system. For example, do you think that certain 'audiophiles' out there would ever entertain owning a Technics SL-1200 or 1210, once it had been judiciously modified, no matter how superb it sounded?

No chance, because the 'badge' would always be wrong...! :wanker:

Such shallow-minded people do not trust their ears and so need to be told by an 'expert' (often a 'high-end' audio magazine reviewer) what equipment is 'best' and/or most 'desirable' to own, based on the written content of reviews and some glossy pictures, where said equipment will usually possess a suitably lofty price tag, in order to satisfy their self-aggrandising and materialistic sensibilities, thus once ownership is secured, enhancing their feeling of 'superiority'.

I have seen plenty evidence of this both on forums, and in real life from the behaviour of the individuals concerned. It's a pathetic and deeply insecure mentality that I'll never be able to relate to.

Marco.

[John]

Neil it is pretty amazing what can be achieved from a standard Laptop using digital media so there is two sides to this. In fact this is such a convient way to having a true high end transport system for the price of laptop and then either using a Linux based system or using Jplay in hibernation/extreme mod which has pushed the performance even further
I now got to the point where I do not have a system of preference which is ideal scenrio for me

[Gmanuk101]

just out of my own interest, what is the average age limit of AoS. also what is the lowest and what is the highest?

On the topic in hand, I do not think it's music in general I think it's apathy in general.

Everyone I've known has been into music in one form or another, and other people I've met havn't, the ones that are seek out music and think, well I bet it sounds better on this or that, the others are happy to buy "I'm Too Sexy" at Asda CD single.. (B side is Don't talk just kiss, lol)

Saturation is just that, Stock Aiken and Waterc**t have a lot to answer for and so does that odeus Simon C*****!!!!

[MartinT]

I must plummet boldly forward to my ultra-avant laminated simulated replica mahogany desk with the strategically placed, imported very hip water pipe, and the latest edition of the "Whole Earth catalog", and rack my agile mind for a spectacular new trend, thereby rejuvenating our limping economy and providing for bored miserable people everywhere, some great new thing to identify with

I want some of what you're on, Graeme :)

[stupinder]

Here's my take on opinions on the youth of today and their relationship with music.

We are, in the main, old and stuck in our ways. There is just as much music out there as there ever was -perhaps more. We are now not privy to the huge amount of new music out there because we are too old be be part of the club. Yes there is the pop crap and Cowel's brand of pap pop but dig a little deeper and there are plethora of new music styles, genres and their associated tribes.

More people are involved in making music and disseminating music than ever before. Look at the courses that are available and the number of magazines dedicated to making music.

It is not that there is a disinterest in music and it is not that there isn't new music out there. I fully believe young people are listening to much more music than they ever did! What has changed is how they listen to it and the values that they place upon physical ownership of the music.

I still maintain (and I know I keep banging on about it) that exposed to high quality reproduction, these quantity rich, quality poor folk will buy into better quality reproduction. I also believe that the way to do that is to be able to offer them access to good quality reproduction at a price that they can afford and see as being achievable.

I also maintain that the uber high end of this game is vital to keep it sexy and aspirational...much as lambos and veyron are to the car analogy i used in my original article.

[Marco]

Hi Stu,


I also maintain that the uber high end of this game is vital to keep it sexy and aspirational...


Speak for yourself, mate. I have no interest whatsoever in audio equipment being "sexy and aspirational". For me, it is simply a tool with which to reproduce my favourite music to a high sonic standard.

The whole "aspirational" thing, IMO, is precisely what's wrong with so-called 'hi-end' audio (and today's self-centred, materialistic society in general), and likely a contributory factor as to why many young people shun having any interest in it!

Marco.

[chelsea]

Here's my take on opinions on the youth of today and their relationship with music.

We are, in the main, old and stuck in our ways. There is just as much music out there as there ever was -perhaps more. We are now not privy to the huge amount of new music out there because we are too old be be part of the club. Yes there is the pop crap and Cowel's brand of pap pop but dig a little deeper and there are plethora of new music styles, genres and their associated tribes.

More people are involved in making music and disseminating music than ever before. Look at the courses that are available and the number of magazines dedicated to making music.

It is not that there is a disinterest in music and it is not that there isn't new music out there. I fully believe young people are listening to much more music than they ever did! What has changed is how they listen to it and the values that they place upon physical ownership of the music.

I still maintain (and I know I keep banging on about it) that exposed to high quality reproduction, these quantity rich, quality poor folk will buy into better quality reproduction. I also believe that the way to do that is to be able to offer them access to good quality reproduction at a price that they can afford and see as being achievable.

I also maintain that the uber high end of this game is vital to keep it sexy and aspirational...much as lambos and veyron are to the car analogy i used in my original article.

This is the problem though stu.
Where the hell do kids get to listen to a top quality system.

For example Plymouth city of about 250,000 hif shops none small little richer sounds with 95% av.

I expect this to be the norm within the next few years in all cities.

[stupinder]

This is the problem though stu.
Where the hell do kids get to listen to a top quality system.

For example Plymouth city of about 250,000 hif shops none small little richer sounds with 95% av.

I expect this to be the norm within the next few years in all cities.
I don't want to plug it overly here but this is the reason for me wanting to champion a sub 250 quid system that offered great quality.

Marco, my politics are probably a little lefter than the majority, but we live in a throwaway society where crap consumerist tat is peddled in over well engineered product that has the ability to last. To me better to spend 5k on an item that will last a lifetime and will be serviceable than a grand on something that's gonna be outdated or broken in 3 years time.
The point i'm making about the uber high end (and I can only speak for myself) is that they are the things that young kids can have posters of on their walls (I know they won't but you get the sentiment) and aspire to.

[chelsea]

I don't want to plug it overly here but this is the reason for me wanting to champion a sub 250 quid system that offered great quality.

Marco, my politics are probably a little lefter than the majority, but we live in a throwaway society where crap consumerist tat is peddled in over well engineered product that has the ability to last. To me better to spend 5k on an item that will last a lifetime and will be serviceable than a grand on something that's gonna be outdated or broken in 3 years time.
The point i'm making about the uber high end (and I can only speak for myself) is that they are the things that young kids can have posters of on their walls (I know they won't but you get the sentiment) and aspire to.

I haven't heard one but doesn't the little fat man or whatever it is called cater for this price.

Do remember that budget systems in the late 70s early 80s were not that cheap.

Rega - nad - diamonds were about £250 ish which was about 2 or 3 weeks average wage.

[Macca]

I To me better to spend 5k on an item that will last a lifetime and will be serviceable than a grand on something that's gonna be outdated or broken in 3 years time.
.

No item of Hi-fi is really worth £5K - which is an astronomical sum - the fact that you think a £1K item is disposable tat speaks volumes about where you are coming from. I often read equipment reviews with interest then when I get to the last para where it gives the price - I burst out laughing. There are some things it is worth aspiring to - owning material objects is not one of them.

[stupinder]

No item of Hi-fi is really worth £5K - which is an astronomical sum - the fact that you think a £1K item is disposable tat speaks volumes about where you are coming from. I often read equipment reviews with interest then when I get to the last para where it gives the price - I burst out laughing. There are some things it is worth aspiring to - owning material objects is not one of them.
I was speaking about consumer goods in general and exaggerating for effect! My point is, as I thought was obvious, was that the majority of consumer tat is designed to be outdated or break in a matter of a year or so. Look at the well made products of yesteryear (and yes some hifi) that is still going strong.

Just where am I coming from do you think? Do you think I own hifi worth thousands upon thousands? If so, then you are sadly mistaken!

[stupinder]

I haven't heard one but doesn't the little fat man or whatever it is called cater for this price.

Do remember that budget systems in the late 70s early 80s were not that cheap.

Rega - nad - diamonds were about £250 ish which was about 2 or 3 weeks average wage.
We're of the mind that the 250 quid budget will assume that there is already a source - this is likely to be Ipod, ps3, laptop. We also reckon it's well doable!

[Macca]

I
Just where am I coming from do you think? Do you think I own hifi worth thousands upon thousands? If so, then you are sadly mistaken!

Okay my post was a little confrontational and I apologise for that. I just don't think your analogy with motoring and aspirational products really works with hi-fi because the main problem we have with getting people into the hobby is that they perceive that it will cost them thousands upon thousands and countless reviews of £5K speakers and turntables etc only reinforces this view - after all if a £5K TT is rated 'good but with some drawbacks' how bad must a £200 TT be? The perception created is that 'cheap' hi-fi is not worth owning. I have magazines running to 70 pages and nothing reviewed within costs less than £2.5K -there is the problem right there. :)

[stupinder]

Okay my post was a little confrontational and I apologise for that. I just don't think your analogy with motoring and aspirational products really works with hi-fi because the main problem we have with getting people into the hobby is that they perceive that it will cost them thousands upon thousands and countless reviews of £5K speakers and turntables etc only reinforces this view - after all if a £5K TT is rated 'good but with some drawbacks' how bad must a £200 TT be? The perception created is that 'cheap' hi-fi is not worth owning. I have magazines running to 70 pages and nothing reviewed within costs less than £2.5K -there is the problem right there. :)
:)And that's just why I want to champion a system where folk can get great sound for 250 quid. Its doable I know.
Your saying that Top Gear reviewing and driving Lambos and Veyrons will put folk off buying cars because they will perceive that they have to spend....
I went to the Top Marques show in Monaco a couple of years ago (they were a client) with my youngest son and his mate and it was heaven for the kids. He's obsessed with cars but he knows the lambos and veyrons are out of most folks reach, but it doesn't stop him reading about them and i''m sure in later life he'll want to own nice cars...perhaps not ones that costs hundreds of thousands...

People like to read about expensive stuff -I know I do despite probably never being able to afford it.

Where hifi went wrong was no having a High end Hifi Top Trumps :ner:

[Gmanuk101]

@Martin - it's a quote from one of my favourite Zappa songs "The Adventures of Greggery Peccary" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Greggery_Peccary


@hifiPig - you are so right about the amount of quality music out there, I am a fan of Fact Magazine http://www.factmag.com/ which has the Vinyl Factory associated with it. Promotes new artists, up and coming and alternative genres to the "norm". Also as does Warp records, so it's all out there, it just doesnt have the mass budgets of the huge corporations to bombard us with.

A fine example is Justin Beebo[sic] - his music is terrible, production terrible, sound quality terrible, but tell enough people the lie enough times and it's believable.

To me it's apathy in the masses - the revolution will not be televised (Herron, Gil, Scott)

[Gmanuk101]

:)And that's just why I want to champion a system where folk can get great sound for 250 quid. Its doable I know.


I agree, £250 you can have a great little system, my living set up is not far over that and sounds perfect to me.

£250 is a lot of money to some though, unfortunately.

I agree with the top trumps thing, it becomes badge envy we see in everything today and in the not so distant past.

[stupinder]

I agree, £250 you can have a great little system, my living set up is not far over that and sounds perfect to me.

£250 is a lot of money to some though, unfortunately.

I agree with the top trumps thing, it becomes badge envy we see in everything today and in the not so distant past.
250 quid is a lot of money, I don't deny that, but it is achievable by many. My eldest gets 50€ a month (hes 17.5 but has to buy his own toiletries and clothes out of this - less what we buy at rentrée time) and does a Saturday job teaching English which doubles this. If he wanted to save for something (he's just bought himself a new computer after saving) he could achieve the 250 quite quickly.

[Gmanuk101]

250 quid is a lot of money, I don't deny that, but it is achievable by many. My eldest gets 50€ a month (hes 17.5 but has to buy his own toiletries and clothes out of this - less what we buy at rentrée time) and does a Saturday job teaching English which doubles this. If he wanted to save for something (he's just bought himself a new computer after saving) he could achieve the 250 quite quickly.

good for him :) and for you for teaching him the value of things (I sound just like my father now! )

so then would you agree it boils down to apathy? If so, what would you say contributes to this apathy?

[stupinder]

good for him :) and for you for teaching him the value of things (I sound just like my father now! )

so then would you agree it boils down to apathy? If so, what would you say contributes to this apathy?
I don't think it does boil down to apathy. I just don't think kids are exposed to good quality sound reproduction in the home. I genuinely believe that once they hear good quality sound they will connect with their music and buy into the "hifi thing" on whatever level that is.

[Gmanuk101]

I don't think it does boil down to apathy. I just don't think kids are exposed to good quality sound reproduction in the home. I genuinely believe that once they hear good quality sound they will connect with their music and buy into the "hifi thing" on whatever level that is.

interesting point. I for one wasn't exposed to good quality sound in the home, my first record player was from a jumble sale with one of those arm selector things and an inbuilt speaker. only after a while did my parents get a sony all in one job in the mid 80s.

however, my parents and uncles were into music having eclectic tastes which made me listen to a lot of varied styles.

It's a deeper question than we think and I believe a combination of many aspects, from what you say to apathy of the individual.

I for one used to get frightened by the hi-fi dealers at the time, not really knowing what I was talking about to getting laughed at if I wanted to here a beastie boys or run dmc album on a decent set up.

so therefore I think the advertising on TV has a massive amount to do with this. Also I am now an adult and if I were me in my teens I would not listen to anything I said.

[stupinder]

interesting point. I for one wasn't exposed to good quality sound in the home, my first record player was from a jumble sale with one of those arm selector things and an inbuilt speaker. only after a while did my parents get a sony all in one job in the mid 80s.

however, my parents and uncles were into music having eclectic tastes which made me listen to a lot of varied styles.

It's a deeper question than we think and I believe a combination of many aspects, from what you say to apathy of the individual.

I for one used to get frightened by the hi-fi dealers at the time, not really knowing what I was talking about to getting laughed at if I wanted to here a beastie boys or run dmc album on a decent set up.

so therefore I think the advertising on TV has a massive amount to do with this. Also I am now an adult and if I were me in my teens I would not listen to anything I said.
They made a film about you...:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSINO6MKtco

[Welder]

I’ve never been convinced by the argument that there is a generation of music consumers who have no interest in audio quality. I do accept that there has been a change in how people in general listen to recorded music, but what I believe is getting overlooked is the audio quality that can be obtained from some of the portable audio rigs available.

Anyway, it seems that not only does this group/generation apparently have no appreciation of audio quality; they don’t like paying for recorded music either.
So, what better place to assess the truth of the quality debate than the sites that this group get their audio from.
So in brief, the assumption seems to be among some audiophiles that this group would rather cram as many tracks as possible on their mp3 players and consequently the most popular download format should be the lowest bitrate files available.
Add to this that higher bit depth files take considerably longer to download than say a 96kbps file then one certainly wouldn’t expect to see the increasing popularity of Flac downloads for music.

I would like to just provide a link to a couple of such sites to demonstrate my point but for obvious reasons that isn’t possible.

I’m not suggesting anyone downloads these files but if you can cope with the not so genteel self expression in the comments, they make informative reading.
Any torrent site will do and no you won’t get arrested for looking.
Flac downloads are highly appreciated and on some sites far outweigh the crap mp3 downloads some are trying to suggest is the norm.

As net speeds have increased and storage become more affordable Flac downloads have increased and this might suggest that quality is indeed important to those who use these sites; the problem isn’t and maybe never has been a lack of appreciation of audio quality, but the expense of it and that I believe has been a problem for every youngster interested in music, or even Hi Fi.
So, from what I can see ,and you can as well if you bother to look, is the evidence against this group having no appreciation of audio quality is overwhelming.

The next slightly unpalletable truth is not only does this group know the differnce between mp3 and Flac, many seem rather keen on the portable apps that will play these files. I suggest many of these kids, who the likes of Stu are so convinced need educating about quality audio, probably know more about the subject than he does and know how to get it at a fraction of the cost.

[RichB]

I don't think it does boil down to apathy. I just don't think kids are exposed to good quality sound reproduction in the home. I genuinely believe that once they hear good quality sound they will connect with their music and buy into the "hifi thing" on whatever level that is.

I totally agree with this statement, I've always been a music lover since i was old enough to tape the top 40 on a ghetto blaster in the mid 80s but never really heard a proper system til i was about 18... i remember going round a mates house who played me some techno on a pair of mordaunt short floorstanders with a rotel amp and pioneer disc player... it blew my effin head off and returning home to my puny aiwa mini system just didnt do it anymore... within a matter of weeks I'd saved and scrounged enough for my first separates system, some of which I still listen to as a second system.... that cost me about £900 which was nearly 2 months wages back then...

Chances are if i hadnt had that first encounter with a 'proper' system I might never have upgraded at all and been quite happy with the plasticy aiwa system... also spending most of my 20s in a state of herbal enhancement may have had something to do with it... so my solution: get em stoned and make em listen to some classic gear!:lol:

[stupinder]

I totally agree with this statement, I've always been a music lover since i was old enough to tape the top 40 on a ghetto blaster in the mid 80s but never really heard a proper system til i was about 18... i remember going round a mates house who played me some techno on a pair of mordaunt short floorstanders with a rotel amp and pioneer disc player... it blew my effin head off and returning home to my puny aiwa mini system just didnt do it anymore... within a matter of weeks I'd saved and scrounged enough for my first separates system, some of which I still listen to as a second system.... that cost me about £900 which was nearly 2 months wages back then...

Chances are if i hadnt had that first encounter with a 'proper' system I might never have upgraded at all and been quite happy with the plasticy aiwa system... also spending most of my 20s in a state of herbal enhancement may have had something to do with it... so my solution: get em stoned and make em listen to some classic gear!:lol:
Yeh, weed and acid should be subsidised by CEDIA and BADA! That'll work.

[Welder]

I did suggest people read the comments.
Of course, if you think that middle aged audiophiles are making these comments then fair enough. Nothing would surprise me. ;)

Also, maybe surprisngly as well, the yoof seem to be rather fond of the "old" music.

[stupinder]

I did suggest people read the comments.
Of course, if you think that middle aged audiophiles are making these comments then fair enough. Nothing would surprise me. ;)

Also, maybe surprisngly as well, the yoof seem to be rather fond of the "old" music.
This shocking comment was on a Pink Floyd Flac on FB -first that caught my eye on a random page. It's hardly the kind of comment i'd expect from the youth i've seen on the telly in their hoodies.
"I'm very sorry for bothering..... by the way excellent work *******!!!!! you're awesome.I don't know if you accept requests but I'm gonna give it a try.... Is it possible for you to upload anything by benjamin stauffer? I know its rare stuff but.......... "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt6NGFCPfw4 this is Benjamin Stauffer.

From what i've seen the Flac files are being downloaded by middle aged blokes, goths or Folkies.

[Welder]

This shocking comment was on a Pink Floyd Flac on FB -first that caught my eye on a random page. It's hardly the kind of comment i'd expect from the youth i've seen on the telly in their hoodies.
"I'm very sorry for bothering..... by the way excellent work *******!!!!! you're awesome.I don't know if you accept requests but I'm gonna give it a try.... Is it possible for you to upload anything by benjamin stauffer? I know its rare stuff but.......... "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt6NGFCPfw4 this is Benjamin Stauffer.

From what i've seen the Flac files are being downloaded by middle aged blokes, goths or Folkies.

:lol:
I have to ask Stu, have you ever met a young person. ;):D

[stupinder]

:lol:
I have to ask Stu, have you ever met a young person. ;):D
Once. It was an experience I hope not to have to repeat too often:ner:
I was young once myself you know -i didn't stop regular djing 'til i was just shy of 30, so reckon I had a fairly good grip on new music and my record shop (Mainly sold happy hardcore and bouncy techno...i know, i know:doh:) was a bit of a den for the yoof. Still went clubbing on a regular basis up til about 7 years ago when we moved over to france.
It's not that long ago that I had a huge row with a former DJ partner about Intelligent Dance Music -I still maintain that intelligence has no place in dance music:)

[Gmanuk101]

the point is each to their own. I have a mate who brought in usa techno and hip hop circa 1985. had proper sampling equipment and conected to the london studios. I still had shit equipment .a little sony blaster. the point is the discovery, the interest. what goes back to this thread's original point I do not have an answer, but from a personal point of view its all about wanting to find something new or wishing to improve on what I have

[Spur07]

What kind of stuff are you finding on Flac on these sites?
Lots of Grime and dubstep i'd wager....not.
I just had a look on PBay and on the first page on a search for Flacs the majority of stuff was 80s and 90s stuff. That stuff that is twenty odd years old, so perhaps this stuff isn't been downloaded by teens at all.

Oh hang on heres one from 2012. The chieftains - coz that's what the youth is getting down to these days.

I'm suggesting, for those that are missing my point, that it is "others" that are nicking this music in lossless not the yoof.

Lot of goth type stuff too.

If you can't find pirated contemporary music on FLAC your looking in the wrong places. Several years ago you could get virtually anything on MP3, and not much on FLAC, (if you're that way inclined). Now evidence suggest FLAC is quickly catching up. As Welder suggests perhaps FLAC is important to young people and as the pirating community has expanded and grown more confident lossless downloading has increased. Whether they'll want to stream it into expensive gear is another matter however - for music on the move I use a Sansa Clip with Koss Porta Pro headphones (total cost £38) and it's outstanding, getting right to the heart of the music - in many ways it's better than my home digital set up.

[MartinT]

for music on the move I use a Sansa Clip

Excellent little device, isn't it?

[Spur07]

Excellent little device, isn't it?

Indeed it is, the best portable player i've ever had. all bulky ipods/players shown be a thing of the past imo.

[Tim]

Excellent little device, isn't it?
How spooky is that, I ordered a Sansa Clip on Monday night from Amazon! Seems I made a good choice :)

[stupinder]

How spooky is that, I ordered a Sansa Clip on Monday night from Amazon! Seems I made a good choice :)
Not massively dissimilar to my little D-Jix thing by the looks of it.

[MartinT]

How spooky is that, I ordered a Sansa Clip on Monday night from Amazon! Seems I made a good choice :)

Drives my Sony in-ear phones very well and even does a pretty good job with my Superlux HD668Bs. You have to disable the silly Euro-volume limiter, though.

[chelsea]

Come to think of it most of the rubbish that pasases as music these days doesn't deserve a good system.

I may be forced to counter you cheap system policy stu.

[Welder]

Yep, you have a point Tim.
I just wanted to illustrate a point.....

Stu.
Ah, grown up discussions, fraid that rules me out then.:(

[Werner Berghofer]

It’s a pity to see what this thread has changed to.

Werner.

[Welder]

Look folks, my appologies all round but really...........

I wont contribute any more. I obviously have a completely different view of the worth of the Hi Fi Industry and its related media not to mention a completely different view of what is and what isn't important in trying to obtain high quality audio.

[Reffc]

From what I've read on this thread, there seems to be several camps. I don't wish to get embroiled in some pretty unimportant arguments in the scheme of things, but getting back to grass roots as it were and addressing what Stu is trying to do, it deserves merit, not condemnation or splitting hairs over who listens to what, or what a young person looks like (:doh:).

Point is, is that unless the industry AND enthusiasts do something about it, quality hifi as we know it today is something that will disappear forever. Anyone from their mid 20's to the oldies who've been fortunate enought to experience quality hifi, to understand what hi fidelity (both in the recording and the playback equipment) is, knows only too well the drawbacks and inferiority for "serious" listening that convenience formats enjoyed by the youth have.

MP3 is not high fidelity nor ever will be, but that's what most youngsters (including my own nephews and nieces) consider as hifi. They think that by plugging into a "fatboy idock" station they have hifi.

Won't it be a great shame and a loss to the younger generations not to understand or to be encouraged (for non convenience serious listening) to learn about and be exposed to quality hifi (note I don't use the term "high end" as in my book its meaningless. there's quality hi fidelity (not always at a premium) and everything else. The "everything else" category has a place and a function. MP3 is fantastic when you're on the go or for plugging into the car stereo but that's where it ends.

There's also the education about recording and mastering standards without which ANY format is potentially a waste of space. Just look at how the loudness wars have ruined the potential of CD which to all intents and purposes is a very fine high fidelity medium.

I'm with Stu; I think that the more that enter the spirit of the thing and see within reason what can be done on a budget, the better. you never know, we might just surprise outselves!

[Reid Malenfant]

There's also the education about recording and mastering standards without which ANY format is potentially a waste of space. Just look at how the loudness wars have ruined the potential of CD which to all intents and purposes is a very fine high fidelity medium.
While I agree with this I will say that it is genre dependent. Anything or just about any chart music is likely to have been corrupted with a whole load of compression a la loudness wars :rolleyes:

I'm lucky that 99% of the music I listen to on CD hasn't been through this process & the quality shines through :)

[Reffc]

While I agree with this I will say that it is genre dependent. Anything or just about any chart music is likely to have been corrupted with a whole load of compression a la loudness wars :rolleyes:

I'm lucky that 99% of the music I listen to on CD hasn't been through this process & the quality shines through :)

Yes, me too Mark. It's one of the benefits of not listening to a great deal of current "yoof" music! I guess my point was that many youngsters listen to nothing else, so perhaps understanding what a dynamic compression leaving a total of 10dB headroom actually does to ruin the tunes may be something they've missed (or in some cases perhaps it wouldn't make any improvement!). There's some up and coming bands out there at present, particularly the indy scene, plus there's more mainstream music (eg Mumford and Sons who have shot to critical acclaim). In amongst that, I agree there's a majority of stuff that would have no personal appeal for myself.

[Marco]

I don't wish to get embroiled in some pretty unimportant arguments in the scheme of things, but getting back to grass roots as it were and addressing what Stu is trying to do, it deserves merit, not condemnation or splitting hairs over who listens to what, or what a young person looks like (:doh:).


+1.

I'm out at a friend's house at the moment, but when I get back, I'd like this petty bullshite wiped out, and a return to sanity! Cheers.

Marco.

[ursus262]

+2

I've never read such a load of nonsense in years.

Our hobby is as diverse as it's always been. The technology may have changed, but much remains unchanged. Different people have different approaches. None of this matters. The only thing that is important is that people derive pleasure from it.

[Joe]

I don't know of a single member of AoS who is a 'badge snob' or has 'badge-fi'. I also know not a single person who has money to throw away.

I am a badge snob, have badge-fi, and money to throw away.

[Marco]

Aye, so you have! ;)

Marco.

[Beechwoods]

Those old Half Man Half Biscuit 7"s are worth a fortune these days. Definitely enough to retire on and invest in the better things!

[Tim]

Drives my Sony in-ear phones very well and even does a pretty good job with my Superlux HD668Bs. You have to disable the silly Euro-volume limiter, though.
My Sansa Clip+ arrived today Martin and what an amazing little MP3 player for the money! I'm very pleased indeed, FLAC sounds great on it and despite its size, I can even read the display with my old blind eyes :eyebrows:

Fortunately I was aware of the European volume limiter from reading the posts on Amazon, so I selected North America in the settings. Best MP3 I have ever bought for the money and I've had a few up to now :)

[MartinT]

I hadn't tried it with FLAC but I shall experiment (although in truth 320k mp3 is fine for music on the move).