Before/after sample music downloads demonstrating benefits of Technics mods...

[ODS123]

Greetings all! This is my first post to this forum.

I just purchased a brands new Technics SL-1200mk2 (scarce here in US) and I couldn't be more impressed. ..The molded aluminum top- base, the heavy rubber lower base, the fit/finish of the tonearm and the lack of motor noise and flutter are remarkable, particularly in light of the cost and the age of the design. To think that when I bought my Ariston Icon all those years ago, I could have purchased this instead for about the same price:)

That said, I"m still intrigued by the accounts I read here and elsewhere of modifications that will raise the tables performance even higher. However, I must admit that I'm very much a skeptic as it relates to high end audio. On too many occasions glowing reviews have led me to swap pricey cables in/out of my system only to find that I can't hear one iota of difference, let alone improvement. I suspect in many cases it is expectation-bias which leads some to either hear something that isn't there, or to make much of small differences. So while I'm open minded I don't want to go to the trouble and expense of having these mods performed without evidence, other than anecdotal, that they work.

So here's my question: ..Do any of the outfits that do these mods offer before and after music samples on their website, or on request?? ..Have any of you done this with your own tables?? It is very easy and inexpensive to do with widely available vinyl-ripping software. ..And the quality of these recordings, in my opinion, is excellent. Certainly good enough that any mod which leads to a huge improvement should be audible.

thanks!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep, good luck with this thread. Vinyl ripping is never as good as a true listening session. The problem you have is that you live several thousand miles across the pond so it may be very difficult to heat a probably modded 1210. The other problem you have is that every setup sounds different. My system is very forensic it'll spit out a shit recording at a 1000 yards! Bass is like a sledge hammer in your face but it can play blues/classical/jazz with such delicate finesse it hurts!! The 1st thing you need to do is define the sound you want and then we can start to help. And to answer your question I dont think any "add-on" companies do a before and after vinyl rip.

Hope this helps. :cool:

[drrd]

Actually scratch this idea, I still had an earth issue which I've sorted but those recordings don't sound right. Not an easy mod to A-B this, proper earthing makes a big difference though :)

[WOStantonCS100]

Congrats. Glad you're happy with your purchase thus far. I used to live in the Tri-State area. Boston wasn't too long of a trip. If you ever venture south, though, you're welcome in for a session.

I was/am still very much a skeptic; but, I've done a few mods already which have proven two things to me: 1) the differences, even in their varying degrees, are real and 2) a rip at CD quality 16/44.1 is not able to accurately portray the gains... ...to me.

I started off with a mod that had nothing to do with the 1200. I retipped one of my carts. The level of detail gained was astonishing. Cymbals really sounded like cymbals!! However, if I were to make a digital rip of that in anything less than 24/192, one would think I had wasted my money. Most likely DSD at 2+ GHz or 5+ GHz would be a better choice. Aside from moving to a linear tracking arm, where the lack of groove distortion is blatant (smacking me in the face), the other benefits of upgrading (the bearing, which I've done, the PSU, very soon hopefully, and platter thereafter) IMO are probably going to get lost in the average conversion/rip presentation. For example, with the Mike New bearing, I don't remember being knocked on the floor until, after a couple of months, when I subbed back in the stock bearing. Needless to say, the MN bearing is back in and hasn't been removed since. With the MN bearing, it's not about what I can hear but about what I don't hear. Many times I have looked back to make sure I had actually cued the stylus because there was a silence (in the lead in) that I wasn't used to. And then the music would come out of nowhere. LOL! All that to say, I'd have to echo what's already been said, "a true listening session" is about the only way to prove it to yourself.

[ODS123]

Actually scratch this idea, I still had an earth issue which I've sorted but those recordings don't sound right. Not an easy mod to A-B this, proper earthing makes a big difference though :)

I believe it.... ..I know I can hear quite a bit of hum without the grounding wire connected. ...Thanks for trying :)

[drrd]

Actually it's not quite as simple as obvious hum, though that definitely highlights a problem. Most circuits just seem to work better when they have a very low impedance connection to earth, for a hifi system this needs to apply to all the equipment. The earth is the stable shared 'reference point' for the circuits, it's not just there as a safety thing. In the case of the Technics TT I got a small but noticeable improvement in sound quality by soldering my earth lead directly to the PCB rather than using the chassis. For an MC phono amp it seems to be even more critical, I can definitely hear the difference between a soldered earth versus tags and screws.

[Beechwoods]

Hi there,

I'm afraid I've had to remove the posts which were linking to needle-drops. Under the terms of our Google Adsense agreement, these can be construed as infringing copyright, and we need to be seen to comply with those terms, or lose the ability to support the site costs through Google Ad revenues.

I hope you understand.

[ODS123]

Bummer. ..Unfortunately, I wasn't able to download them anyway.

I'm still hoping to hear from a mod company about why they don't do this as a way of proving the merit of their upgrades. Surely, if a modification is very apparent then it should be audible on a high-quality analog-to-digital transfer.

[Mike_New]

Hi Scott,
Your concern re above does cause me some amusement.
And I am wondering what you would call “a high-quality analog-to-digital transfer”.
Surely it is the very essence of what we are trying to do, in that our aims and objectives are to surpass the so often stated “mediocrity of a digital recording”, with all the nuances lost to the quantisation errors and other “blemish’s of the digital process.

I for one would not deem to waste my time on this endeavor. The cost of the exercise in trying to obtain the highest quality (sonically) digital transfer equipment, (and I am sure there are really high quality systems out there) would be a waste of time. Secondly, what quality CD system will this fantastical recording be reproduced on in the prospective buyers home???

I am aware of one person who used to spend more time offering a CD of his bearing than actually shipping out the product. I have a customer, a former Satellite electronic systems engineer who obtained one of these recordings, and said that he could not understand what he was supposed to be listening to!!

Which is a shame, because people then tend to assume that all the upgrades available must be of the same sonic value.

[YNWaN]

I'm still hoping to hear from a mod company about why they don't do this as a way of proving the merit of their upgrades. Surely, if a modification is very apparent then it should be audible on a high-quality analog-to-digital transfer.

I think there are a number of issues with what you suggest. In the past, I have made a lot of 'before and after' modification 'needle-drop' recordings and changes can often be heard. However, the recording chain is not absolutely transparent and does introduce it's own sound. There is also an issue regarding the 'high quality' aspect of making a recording. Should this be at CD quality, or higher? By preference I would select higher, but these files are very much bigger and sometimes people are not able to play them (or, if they do, they are at a lower resolution). Even worse is how people choose to listen to such recordings and many feel it is appropriate to listen direct from the headphone output of their computer or through their desktop computer speakers; unsurprisingly, neither of these methods are very good at discerning (what can be quite subtle) differences. A more prosaic issue is that of music choice and copyright. Manufacturers would certainly have to pay royalties on any music used and my experience is that whatever music you choose, it's wrong. Curiously, many struggle to discern differences if music they don't personally like is used!

[HoraceW]

Hi Scott,
Your concern re above does cause me some amusement.
And I am wondering what you would call “a high-quality analog-to-digital transfer”.
Surely it is the very essence of what we are trying to do, in that our aims and objectives are to surpass the so often stated “mediocrity of a digital recording”, with all the nuances lost to the quantisation errors and other “blemish’s of the digital process.

I for one would not deem to waste my time on this endeavor. The cost of the exercise in trying to obtain the highest quality (sonically) digital transfer equipment, (and I am sure there are really high quality systems out there) would be a waste of time. Secondly, what quality CD system will this fantastical recording be reproduced on in the prospective buyers home???

I am aware of one person who used to spend more time offering a CD of his bearing than actually shipping out the product. I have a customer, a former Satellite electronic systems engineer who obtained one of these recordings, and said that he could not understand what he was supposed to be listening to!!

Which is a shame, because people then tend to assume that all the upgrades available must be of the same sonic value.


Wouldn't it be better to address these questions and concerns rather than denigrate the efforts of others? How about suggesting a valid method so people can get a better idea how some of these wonder mods compare with the standard stock item?

[Mike_New]

That would be fantastic Hugh, if you can devise a method of doing it.
I had thought that I had addressed the concerns in practical terms that most people can relate to.

[Beechwoods]

I thought that Mike's post was a really good one. If you're looking to improve your system with upgrades like those discussed on AOS, often changes are subtle, and the inherent limitations of digitally recording an analogue system will colour or mask these changes in many cases. The quality of the digital playback chain is even less controlled, and more likely to affect the perceived result.

Completely valid points and in no way denigrating anyone else who might have a different opinion.

[YNWaN]

A good way is to record directly from the phonostage using a good quality A2D converter into a laptop using Audacity. Ideally the sample rate and frequency should be as high as possible and no post processing should take place; however, recording levels should be equal between samples as people often confuse 'louder' with 'better'.This method is good enough to show the effect of most TT modifications (assuming they are played back through a sufficiently good replay chain).

However, it is important that exactly the same equipment is used to make both the A and B recordings. There is no point in just producing a single recording if there is nothing to compare it directly to; this would require manufacturers to also record their competitors products! There would be no point in comparing recordings made by different manufacturers as too many variables would be introduced to make the result valid.

There are limitations to such recordings and my experience is that digital recordings do not sound exactly the same as 'straight from source'. However, if done correctly, any additions or subtractions are equal for both the A and B recordings (A = before and B = after modification). Bellow a certain point the process is insufficiently transparent.

Anyway, the whole issue is largely mute as copyright issues would prevent most manufacturers from offering such A/B recordings.