View Full Version : Can fuses affect sound quality?
I refer to plugs on mains cords. Bought a few AMR 13amp fuses on Saturday at the hifi show for a punt. These are the cheapest aftermarket fuses around I believe. On source equipment I thought things sounded slightly brighter, cleaner. Could be dreaming of course. However, if all the current flows through it, why should the fuse be overlooked in relation to cable design in general. Rumour has it that better sounds can be had by using schuko plugs/sockets with the fuse confined to the plug on the wall although safety laws in the UK may take a dim view of it.
Anyone else had positive results changing fuses? And I don't give a rats arse on comments that if it can't be measures it can't be happening :)
The Grand Wazoo
26-03-2012, 08:18
We've one or two threads on this that you may find interesting:
Does the quality of a Fuse effect the sound ? (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2622)
Audiophile Mains Fuses - Boon or Boooom(!)? (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8801)
Quick fuse question (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14976)
Cheers for that - should have done a search first, sorry
No worries, Robin - you weren't to know... Hope you found the relevant threads interesting :)
Marco.
Yesterday, as I've said, placed the AMR fuse on the mains cord to the cd player and thought things brightened up a bit as they had previously months ago when I'd swapped the same fuse into the cord powering the Preamp.
So today I was expecting either nothing or a similar change with the Mark Grant cable (with standard plugs) into the phono stage. So I was surprised to find the bass was now heavier and the whole tone had become richer eg the odd click now sounded more like a clunk, and pre echo on some tracks was now less apparent etc. Not what I was expecting and on the whole, not welcomed. I can't believe that the change was like changing the mains cable - it was that significant - the mrs, who sometimes voices her opinion whilst listening in another room, said 'the sound seems less distinct'.
I'm obviously loosing the plot and going nuts but the old Bussman fuse has gone back in. Don't know if MG has tried various fuse types but will stick with the lead as standard.
However, I'm mystified at the change and it's not down to expectation bias as I wasn't 'expecting' this result. Got a spare fuse if someone with a MG cable wants to try it.
StanleyB
26-03-2012, 13:53
I changed the fuses in my DACs from 500mA to 2A somewhere along the production process after noting that the 2A made the DACs sound better. But of course it might have been all in my mind :mental:, so I let it go unreported till now :D.
Years ago, I bypassed a fuse internally with Kimber silver wire. The old Kimber silver wire, when used for interconnects, sounds overtly bright and with a razor sharp and hard peak tone at mid high. The same hard tone was noted whenever and wherever(source/pre/power amp) I used that fuse.
I have tried different fuses for different applications, I prefer vintage RS silver coated fuses, orange or blue label. Another brand worth noting was Bulgin which also made natural-sounding fuse. Modern silver/gold/rhodium/platium(whatever) cryo/heated-treated fuses sound weird.
On the other hand, vintage "Made in England" fuses never let me down.
Don't rely on fuses to improve sound quality, just don't let them alter or even ruin it.
My system I: vdH Colibri platinum/Graham Phantom/Basis Debut, DIY tube phono and preamp, Graaf GM200 power amp, Magneplanar 20.1 Speakers, vdH Platinum IC, Aural Symphonics Magic Gem v2t power cords, DIY speaker cables made with materials intended for superconduction (though not working at superconductive temperature)
System II: Rohde and Schwarz BN1508 Tuner, Audion Golden Night (heavily modified which includes VCap copper teflon capacitors), Diatone PM610A, Rohde Schwarz HS86 mains stabilizer.
Hi Allan
Before you go any further, could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community, as you were asked to do in the registration email you received - ta!
side track a bit, I recently compared new and vintage MK 13A red Hospital Property plugs. The vintage one is clearly marked "Made in England" whereas the new one "BS---British Standard" only. The copper of the vintage one is much better drawn, if you scratch the vintage leads, the copper is smooth and shiny, scratching the new plug yields a rough grainy surface. New plugs sound puffy and harsh by comparison.
I refer to plugs on mains cords. Bought a few AMR 13amp fuses on Saturday at the hifi show for a punt. These are the cheapest aftermarket fuses around I believe. On source equipment I thought things sounded slightly brighter, cleaner. Could be dreaming of course. However, if all the current flows through it, why should the fuse be overlooked in relation to cable design in general. Rumour has it that better sounds can be had by using schuko plugs/sockets with the fuse confined to the plug on the wall although safety laws in the UK may take a dim view of it.
Anyone else had positive results changing fuses? And I don't give a rats arse on comments that if it can't be measures it can't be happening :)
Yup, l have poncy fuses, and it pains me to say that in every application l have used them they have improved the sound a little.
Mark Grant
22-04-2012, 08:46
side track a bit, I recently compared new and vintage MK 13A red Hospital Property plugs. The vintage one is clearly marked "Made in England" whereas the new one "BS---British Standard" only. The copper of the vintage one is much better drawn, if you scratch the vintage leads, the copper is smooth and shiny, scratching the new plug yields a rough grainy surface. New plugs sound puffy and harsh by comparison.
What looks like copper on the MK plugs is actually Brass :)
Some of the really old ones do appear to be made with smoother finished brass than some of the new ones.
I will take some macro photos one day of different connectors.
ursus262
22-04-2012, 09:19
Talking of plugs, have you thought about using the round 15A plugs? They are still legal in the UK as they are covered by the wiring regs. Of course, you will need to change the sockets as well so they'll fit.
I've tried AMR fuses with mixed results. They seem to make an improvement on the cdp (using a kettle cord), the pre (similar cable) and the power amp (musicworks Revive) but not the phono stage (MG cable). On balance better fuses seem to make more pleasing effects on the cheaper cables I think.
Funny thing... I recently removed the expensive Revive with top of the range Furutech connectors from the cdp in favour of a kettle lead with moulded plastic connectors which seems to give a more balanced, less forcefull sound. Go figure...
What looks like copper on the MK plugs is actually Brass :)
Can you actually get any plugs these days with contact pins made from solid copper? I notice that even those on the superb Furutechs are made from Eutetic brass...
I will take some macro photos one day of different connectors.
Please do, mate, as that would be very interesting!
Marco.
I'm using a mixture of Hi-Fi Tuning, IsoTek and Russ Andrews fuses. The effects are similar to but smaller than changing mains cables. However, it's a cumulative thing so if you're going to go with specialist fuses then use them throughout the system.
I don't think you could ever get plugs with pins made from copper, even 15A ones are brass - copper is very soft, not suitable for taking grub screws etc.
I don't think you could ever get plugs with pins made from copper, even 15A ones are brass - copper is very soft, not suitable for taking grub screws etc.
I think the Furutech plug is copper. I think copper gets harder when it is cryo treated as far as I know. Could be wrong but I was told by Furutech its copper.
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/360-861-thickbox/furutech-fi-1363-cu-copper-mains-plug.jpg
Hi David,
Which Furutech plug is that? The ones I use are the FI-1363-Rs (and also some of the right-angled versions), shown on your website:
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-plugs/38-furutech-fi-1363-g-gold-plated-mains-plug-4582237530506.html
With all metal parts made from Eutetic brass using the Alpha process, and then rhodium plated.
:scratch:
Marco.
Hi David,
Which Furutech plug is that? The ones I use are the FI-1363s (and also some of the right-angled versions), shown on your website:
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-plugs/38-furutech-fi-1363-g-gold-plated-mains-plug-4582237530506.html
:scratch:
Marco.
they make a copper version dude, here (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-plugs/360-furutech-fi-1363-cu-copper-mains-plug.html) it is. I asked furutech this afternoon and they said its as pure a copper as possible without going too soft as pointed out in an earlier post, eutectic copper alloys are common in hi-fi and it seems this is a special mixture, they would say that though wouldn't they!
Okies... But what I don't get is this:
NEW DESIGN OF UK MAINS PLUG FROM FURUTECH FI-1363 COPPER.
Mains-Cables-R-Us are proud to be associated with Furutech of Japan. We have a vast range of products which is expanding rapidly, any items required can be delivered on short lead times. The Rhodium plated version is FI-1363-R.
...which suggests that the FI-1363-R is the same as the copper one, only Rhodium plated. Now, it is indeed the Rhodium plated FI-1363Rs that I use, BUT - on your website, here:
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-plugs/38-furutech-fi-1363-g-gold-plated-mains-plug-4582237530506.html
...they are described as:
With all metal parts made from Eutetic brass using the Alpha process, and then rhodium plated.
So which is it, copper or Eutetic brass? :scratch:
Marco.
It seems my site may have a mistake (or 6), Furutech website states eutectic copper for the 2 plated plugs.
So eutectic copper not eutectic brass. I will amend the site accordingly.
So your plugs are basically the same as the one I first highlighted underneath with rhodium on top.
Sorted.
Reet-o, now that makes more sense... I was wondering! That explains why they improve the sound so much :cool:
You've been underselling your best mains plugs, daftee - good job I spotted it! ;)
Marco.
Now put a decent fuse in it :)
Now put a decent fuse in it :)
Here, here. :)
Martin,
Your fuses are on the way dude, specially ordered from Germany via the UK importer.
Now put a decent fuse in it :)
Come on now, this is me, Captain Daftee, yer talkin' to - do you think I hadn't already thought of that? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Come on now, this is me, Captain Daftee, yer talkin' to - do you think I hadn't already thought of that? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Just testing :)
Your fuses are on the way dude, specially ordered from Germany via the UK importer.
Excellent news, Dave. I was also lightly ribbing you with your "here, here" rather than "hear, hear" :)
Long time no chat, sorry for the mistake I made as far as copper vs brass is concerned.
Furutech GTX series' leads are pure copper. I prefer to use their unplated ones since any conductors sound weird after electroplating.
Today I did something that I would not recommend to fellow audiophiles, I bypassed one of the duplicated fuses (e.g. two 13A fuses in one circuit) with pure copper tube.
Result: I immediately want to bypass all fuses in my system. 50% increase in microdynamics/air/harmonic coherence, etc.....
This is illegal and no one should follow, this is just an experiment.
You'll get a decent amount of that improvement by using specialist fuses like Hi-Fi Tuning and you'll stay legal.
sq225917
26-04-2012, 15:37
And alive.
Probably worth adding that anyone contemplating bypassing fuses not only risks their kit going up in flames, but their house as well...and the insurance will not pay out if you bypass any fuses. If any item of kit develops a fault, you'll soon know about it.
One of the misconceptions about mains plugs and fuses IMHO is that by swapping things out people sort of expect to hear improvements when the facts may be that repeated removal of plugs etc simply cleans them up for better electrical contact.
Before messing about with fuses, why not try fitting decent close fitting plugs and ensuring all contacts (inside and outside) are cleaned up. I know that some people believe that fuses change the sound but there's no reason why they should and no evidence why they should, but each to their own...it's something else for tweakers to tweak and if it gives results for some, then who can argue with that. It's the kit getting the required current that matters without causing a hazard to the user and others present in the house.
Agree, safety first. I am thinking of making a 13A circuit breaker with an extremely nice contact point and conductor. This could retain the protection while minimizing sound deterioration. Though I am not sure whether the solenoid inside a circuit breaker may generate noise......
A 13a mains fuse will cause less distortion than any circuit breaker, and we have tried in the distant past copper rod instead of fuses, purely to ascertain weak points. The conclusion was clear, that mains fuses do NOT cause degradation compared to no fuse, ie solid copper, in Hifi equipment. we also tried hardwiring etc etc, again, no effect was discernible.
Play safe and enjoy your music.
Rgds
Reid Malenfant
27-04-2012, 21:02
A 13a mains fuse will cause less distortion than any circuit breaker, and we have tried in the distant past copper rod instead of fuses, purely to ascertain weak points. The conclusion was clear, that mains fuses do NOT cause degradation compared to no fuse, ie solid copper, in Hifi equipment. we also tried hardwiring etc etc, again, no effect was discernible.
Play safe and enjoy your music.
Rgds
While I 100% agree with the stuff in bold, can I ask you exactly what kind of equipment you were using whilst testing fuses & copper rods :)
Just being nosey ;)
Hi Mark, back then it was ARC amps, LS16 / 110 iirc, Krell kps 20i, Logan's. Thing is, if the current draw can't pop a fuse, why will a bar improve current flow?
Rgds
Reid Malenfant
27-04-2012, 21:52
Cheers Paul, did you try it on any power amplifiers? Not sure I know all that kit but the stuff I do is all fairly low power stuff no?
Apologies if you did :)
I have just discovered the wonder that is a very low supply impedance of the PS Audio Power Plant Premier...
You may wonder why I mention this, it's because I used to run a P600 Power Plant until it popped a few nights ago :( Well the P600 uses an output transformer to step up 120V American voltage to UK 240V. The result of this is the output impedance is degraded due to the transformer.
I know this simply because I can hear the PPP has much more solid & cleaner bass than the P600. Not only that, but the voltage meters on the PF40s are rock steady at their respective voltages, rather than altering when used on the P600.
It's only powering the front end equipment to...
I have a whole shedload of albums I need to get re-acquainted with once yet again :eyebrows:
I know a fuse is still going to be a pretty low resistance, but getting that supply impedance as low as possible is imo a good idea.
Still, don't go breaking wiring regs :nono:
A fuse is a very fine piece of wire designed to melt at its design fusing current. At lower currents, it still gets hot but doesn't fuse. Since it gets hot, its resistance (by implication) increases. Therefore, it is susceptible to thermal modulation due to the variable current passsing through.
Reid Malenfant
27-04-2012, 22:07
Therefore, it is susceptible to thermal modulation due to the variable current passsing through.
Which should mean a big power amp with a large reservoir of capacitance which draws big current peaks on the mains voltage peak (due to rectification) will be affected by a fuse of a set current capacity more than a pre amp.
It also means a power factor corrected SMPS should be good with fuses :lol: :rolleyes: Apart from any noise..
I notice that Furutech describe the pins of their plugs as being made from "Eutectic Copper Alloy"; well brass is an alloy, an alloy of copper and zinc - ones marketing department could easily choose to describe brass as a copper alloy, or a zinc alloy. Copper on its own is not an alloy, so it is clearly being alloyed with something (most likely zinc). I could genuinely describe all the plugs in my house as using copper alloy pins (as they are brass).
(hypothetical) Furutech marketing department Q&A
Q: Are the pins of your plugs made from copper?
A: Yes
Q: Are they pure copper, like my cables?
A: No, they are a copper alloy
Q: What does that mean exactly?
A: It means copper is mixed with one (or more) metals to produce an alloy
Q: What other metal is the copper mixed with to make this alloy?
A: Zinc
Q: Is this alloy of copper and zinc known by any generic name?
A: Yes
Q: Oh, what is that then?
A: Brass
Q: So the pins are brass, an alloy of copper and zinc......?
A: Yes
Q: But aren't all household plugs made using brass pins?
A: Yes......but ours are rhodium plated
Q: Oh right, does that make them more conductive than copper alone then?
A: No, rhodium is less conductive than copper
Q: Sorry, why do it then?
A: It's shiny
End of Q&A :)
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