Wiring a plug - Pic Heavy

[northwest]

This is NOT a 'tutorial'! This is how I wired a couple of plugs up to some cable. If you want to copy this, go right ahead but BLAH! BLAH!
So, disclaimer over here we go. I went off to Dave Brook's emporium last week and collected up a load of bits 'n bobs in order to improve the mains supply to some of my components. By far I prefer the Lapp Olflex cable because of it's construction. I used the MK Silver Plated Toughplugs the Martin Kaiser IEC Plugs and silver plated Bussman fuses. I also have various lengths of a variety of Heat Shrink Tubing and I prefer to use the slughtly more expensive (by pennies) adhesive tubing, the quality is just that bit better.

The fact that the cable is of good quality makes life that bit easier but sharp tools are helpful. Start off with a good end and remove the outer PVC sheathing as shown in the second pic, make the end a bit longer than needed, it is easier to work that way.

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/01wiring.JPG

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/02wiring.JPG

Then tease out the braid with a small screwdriver, take your time and don't worry if it tangles a bit as you will be trimming it later:

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/03wiring.JPG

Strip back the grey PVC shield as shown in pic number eight below and trim back the outer steel braid leaving a small amount of the braid, look at the pics carefully and you will see what I mean, you will need to twist this together with the earth cable - a picture speaks a thousand words etc. etc.

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/04wiring.JPG

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/05wiring.JPG

Then a short piece of green shrink tube over them both and it makes a terrific tidy job of it:

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/06wiring.JPG

A short length of black heatshrink finishes the job off perfectly:

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/07wiring.JPG

All of this is for the actual three pin plug end. You don't want to be bonding the earth with the braid at the IEC Plug end, only the MK Toughplug end. ONE END ONLY. This pic shows the wiring being prepared for the IEC Plug end and the trimming of the shielding

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/08wiring.JPG

The strain relief on the IEC plug is then slipped over the three wires and again a length of Heat Shrink Tube is used to bond the whole thing together.

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/010wiring.JPG

You can see this now placed inside of the IEC plug and the flange on the strain relief tube holding the cable in place.

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/011wiring.JPG

The finished article:

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/012wiring.JPG

The Toughplug end, note the shrink tube covering the steel braid and ensuring it cant come into contact with anything. The only other thing of real note is the Live and Neutral wires. The two wires are numbered. I used number one for the live and two for the neutral. This worked for me!

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/013wiring.JPG

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/014wiring.JPG

This is the finished article:

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/015wiring.JPG

I have purposely made a couple of ommissions from this article with the hope that it will spur a bit of discussion as you just can't be too careful with mains voltage.

[tommy6206]

Well if I was going to all that trouble I would have tinned the ends of wire and maybe better mark the live and neutral wire

[StanleyB]

Well if I was going to all that trouble I would have tinned the ends of wire and maybe better mark the live and neutral wire
Very good points. The bare copper wires should also not be so heavily exposed on the Neutral connection point.

[YNWaN]

Nicely explained; but if someone needs to be told how to wire up a plug - are they really sufficiently competent to take on such a task?

I'm very surprised that the cable shown does not appear to be colour coded for positive and negative - I thought they had to be?

I see you appear to be using a silver plated mains plug, and yet the cable is copper; I can't really see the point of this.

[Reid Malenfant]

The cable is clearly capable of handling 13A & as the fuse in the plug will only be protecting the cable (unless you are wanting a screened lead for your kettle :lol:) then fit a 13A fuse in the mains plug.

Any hifi equipment you plug it into will be internally fused, or damn well should be unless it's a DIY bodge.

[ursus262]

I noticed you chopped off most of the outer braid. Why did you do this?

[YNWaN]

Presumably, so that when it is twisted with the actual earth wire the whole lot doesn't become too thick and difficult to work with.

[Marco]

The cable is clearly capable of handling 13A & as the fuse in the plug will only be protecting the cable (unless you are wanting a screened lead for your kettle :lol:) then fit a 13A fuse in the mains plug.


Indeed - all that bother (nice job, btw) of wiring the plug neatly, and then the daftee leaves a weedy 5A fuse in there! :doh: :eyebrows:

;)

Yup, if you don't want to strangle the buggery out of the kit that the lead is connected to - fit a 13A fuse in there, pronto!! Oh, and polish the end caps, to a nice bright shine too, while you're at it...

Marco.

[northwest]

Well if I was going to all that trouble I would have tinned the ends of wire and maybe better mark the live and neutral wire

Very good point. The kit comes with some silver tubes in order to achieve the best possible mechanical contact but I find them unwieldy. My preferred method:
http://immersible.co.uk/cable/016wiring.JPG

Solder. Works every time for me!


Nicely explained; but if someone needs to be told how to wire up a plug - are they really sufficiently competent to take on such a task?


Well, we all have to start somewhere and if there are no "instructions" some people are a bit buggered.


I'm very surprised that the cable shown does not appear to be colour coded for positive and negative - I thought they had to be?


You have to be able to positively identify the cables. Essentially this is industrial cable. You are thinking of a household kettle lead with one of those pretty coloured paper inserts showing people which wire goes where on a prewired plug. I have always thought it a bit odd. Unless the majority of the population take their toasters home and immediately dismantle the plug. I don't know, I wasn't there. :)


I see you appear to be using a silver plated mains plug, and yet the cable is copper; I can't really see the point of this.

As with all things audio I suppose. What's the difference between this and de-oxygenated copper speaker cable onto gold plated binding posts?
The purpose really is that because a plug is essentially a friction fit into a receptacle and silver being the best conductor even those connections of a very tenuous nature will be better connected, better conductors. The real advantage of course using this particular cable is that you are essentially creating a Faraday Cage around the cable itself and you are removing radiated interference - down a connection that you hope has been imroved with a silver plating.
You don't need to bother of course and you can use a commercially available computer lead from the pound shop but for the very modest outlay I am going to put a bit of effort into my system.
The other thing is that you can customise your cables so you reduce (you can never wholly eliminate) that Rats Nest that somehow tangles despite your best efforts at the back of your system.

[northwest]

Indeed - all that bother (nice job, btw) of wiring the plug neatly, and then the daftee leaves a weedy 5A fuse in there! :doh: :eyebrows:

;)

Yup, if you don't want to strangle the buggery out of the kit that the lead is connected to - fit a 13A fuse in there, pronto!! Oh, and polish the end caps, to a nice bright shine too, while you're at it...

Marco.

IS okay, IS okay, no panic. Me have Silver Plated 13 AMP fuses.

[Marco]

Good-o, that should do the job nicely... :)

Marco.

[northwest]

I noticed you chopped off most of the outer braid. Why did you do this?

As Mark has pointed out, so you can twist it with the earth cable AND get it into the hole on the earth prong of the fuse. Otherwise you have something about a quarter of an inch in diameter:stalks:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Is that an old Isotek Elite power lead that you have stripped and replugged?

[ursus262]

Yup, if you don't want to strangle the buggery out of the kit that the lead is connected to - fit a 13A fuse in there, pronto!! Oh, and polish the end caps, to a nice bright shine too, while you're at it...

Marco.

Why not just stick a nail in there and be done with it?

[Reid Malenfant]

Looks like SY cable to me, I used 6mm^2 SY cable to connect to one of my power amps as the mains socket on the back of the amp is a 32Amp Neutrik Powercon plug & the amp has a 30A internal fuse :eek:

[ursus262]

As Mark has pointed out, so you can twist it with the earth cable AND get it into the hole on the earth prong of the fuse. Otherwise you have something about a quarter of an inch in diameter:stalks:

Ah... of course :)

[Marco]

Why not just stick a nail in there and be done with it?

That would be rather silly, Dave. A 13A fuse is the appropriate value for fitting in such an application. Check what's inside the mains plugs on your Naim gear... If there aren't 13A Crabtree fuses in there, my name's not Tizer! ;)

Marco.

[ursus262]

That would be rather silly, Dave. A 13A fuse is the appropriate value for fitting in such an application. Check what's inside the mains plugs on your Naim gear... If there aren't 13A Crabtree fuses in there, my name's not Tizer! ;)

Marco.

:lol: Trust you :lol:

Seriously, the point I was trying to make was surely that the fuse rating in the plug ought to suit the current draw of the appliance, whatever it may be. However, that said, a 13A fuse would blow quickly in the event of a fault anyway - I hope.

[Reid Malenfant]

Seriously, the point I was trying to make was surely that the fuse rating in the plug ought to suit the current draw of the appliance, whatever it may be. However, that said, a 13A fuse would blow quickly in the event of a fault anyway - I hope.
Only if it is something like white goods as used in a kitchen ;)

Just about every bit of hifi equipment has an internal fuse to protect the equipment itself. Therefore the only thing the fuse in the mains plug is protecting is the cable that connects to the hifi kit.

So if you want the best sound rather than an emancipated load of rubbish, fit a fuse in the mains plug that is as heavy a current rating as possible that still protects the cable :cool:

[northwest]

Is that an old Isotek Elite power lead that you have stripped and replugged?

Noooo Chuck! Thats a long length of Lapp Oliflex cable purchased from the Emporium of our very own Dave on here as Mains Cables R Us. I know the popular cable is the Belden 19364 for DIY projects but I much prefer the Lapp cable. Personal choice really as the Belden cable is also shielded so provides the same characteristics as the Lapp.

[Marco]

Only if it is something like white goods as used in a kitchen ;)

Just about every bit of hifi equipment has an internal fuse to protect the equipment itself. Therefore the only thing the fuse in the mains plug is protecting is the cable that connects to the hifi kit.

So if you want the best sound rather than an emancipated load of rubbish, fit a fuse in the mains plug that is as heavy a current rating as possible that still protects the cable :cool:

Oh yes indeedy - get all those nasty 3 and 5 amp fuses out of your equipment mains leads, pronto, and into the bin (or, better still, use them somewhere more appropriate)!

Marco.

[northwest]

So if you want the best sound rather than an emancipated load of rubbish, fit a fuse in the mains plug that is as heavy a current rating as possible that still protects the cable

This makes perfect sense. Goes very much against the grain though. Once you have taken formal training (16th Edition in my case - never bothered with the 17th Edition course as I am not engaged as a professional electrician) it just soooooo goes against the grain to fit fuses that are rated above the appliance requirements. Not a bad thing but it does get tedious when the missus asks "why are you taking the plug apart on the new lamp" (Yes - I am that person Mark:rolleyes:) and when you say 'checking the fuse' you get THAT look. You know the one I mean:lol:

[Macca]

Oh yes indeedy - get all those nasty 3 and 5 amp fuses out of your equipment mains leads, pronto, and into the bin (or, better still, use them somewhere more appropriate)!

Marco.

Why am I just learning this now? :eek: Just checked the plug on my Tecchy - bleedin' 3 amps! Now changed for silver 15 amp I got of Graham (cheers mate) - will it spin round a bit faster now? :lol:

[ursus262]

Right, a packet of 13A fuses for me it is then! :cool:

[Reid Malenfant]

Oh I think I can remember what that look looks like :eyebrows:

I must admit I always used to fit a fuse in the mains plug that protected the equipment, but then one day I had a good think about it & realised what I have already mentioned.

I'll be honest & say that the only cable I have ever damaged in my life was on a pair of hedge clippers & as I don't have pets or a rat infestation the fuse in the mains plug is only there for house insurance purposes in reality :)

[northwest]

I'll be honest & say that the only cable I have ever damaged in my life was on a pair of hedge clippers & as I don't have pets or a rat infestation the fuse in the mains plug is only there for house insurance purposes in reality :)

Well - I need Goraman right now, he'll get it - my 71/2" circular saw has no guards on it at all, of any kind. Dangerous huh? Anyhow, the ONE time I allowed a 'professional carpenter' to borrow my saw for ONE cut he cut the friggin cable. Still pisses me off every time I use it. I repaired it with self amalgamating tape and I promise myself that I will replace the cable one day but really I should destroy the saw before someone gets hurt or killed with it. A leftover from crazy times. We were on piece work and had no time for such wussy things as guards or suchlike.

[Reid Malenfant]

Well the old 15A round pin plugs are still legal to use from what I gather & they were a far better connection than these blasted rectangular pinned fused cobblers we have to put up with now :rolleyes:

Perhaps that's why I bought a load of unswitched 15A sockets? :eyebrows: Coming in the not too distant future.......


Yes your saw sounds rather dangerous, but as long as only you use it there is no need in destroying it now is there :)

[Welder]

+1 for the old round pin 15 amp plugs and sockets. Far better contact pressure for one and no fuses. :)

Even better (I've banged on about this a lot) get rid of all those IEC sockets and solder direct.

[StanleyB]

http://immersible.co.uk/cable/016wiring.JPG


That socket does not look right. I would go as so far to say that it should not be used in the application that you are currently using it in.
There is obvious signs of arcing (the black sooty deposits ), and the copper screws shows signs of having been heated up to a high temperature. It should not be so discoloured.

Observe great caution. And next time that you use your equipment, switch off the mains to that socket afterwards and check the temperature of the socket by grabbing it in your hand. If it is noticeably hot, look for a better connection method. You could otherwise be facing a potential fire risk with that socket.

[northwest]

That socket does not look right. I would go as so far to say that it should not be used in the application that you are currently using it in.
There is obvious signs of arcing (the black sooty deposits ), and the copper screws shows signs of having been heated up to a high temperature. It should not be so discoloured.


As it is brand new unused.....
The 'black sooty deposits' are flux Stanly and it looks as if it has been subjected to heat because it has, I used a small blowtorch to solder the wires into the prongs. As soon as my CAIG DE-IOXIT arrives I will clean them. I used heatsinks on the cable side too so there is no danger of damage to the cable insulation.

Here it is: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kitchen-Craft-Blowtorch-Cooks/dp/B0001IWYIC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332702046&sr=8-1 If it's good enough for Blumenthal and his Crepe suzette's it's good enough for me. Also, after studying the pic and the plug again the prongs look as if they have suffered heat damage in the photograph and actually this is not the case at all. The contact surfaces are in fine condition - It is me with the picture software trying to enhance them:-)

[Puffin]

it looks as if it has been subjected to heat because it has

:rfl::rfl::rfl::lolsign:

[StanleyB]

As it is brand new unused.....
The 'black sooty deposits' are flux Stanly and it looks as if it has been subjected to heat because it has, I used a small blowtorch to solder the wires into the prongs. [] If it's good enough for Blumenthal and his Crepe suzette's it's good enough for me. Also, after studying the pic and the plug again the prongs look as if they have suffered heat damage in the photograph and actually this is not the case at all. The contact surfaces are in fine condition - It is me with the picture software trying to enhance them:-)
Glad to know that the situation is not as bad and hazardous as I had imagined :).

One cannot be careful enough with these things and it is best to make sure when pictures are posted. Better to be safe than sorry ;).

[northwest]

Glad to know that the situation is not as bad and hazardous as I had imagined :).

One cannot be careful enough with these things and it is best to make sure when pictures are posted. Better to be safe than sorry ;).

No, you are right Stan. Someone questioned why you would post an instructional on how to wire a plug early on in this article and I respectfully suggest that four pages on, this is why.

I read somewhere on here that a member of the forum had had a nasty experience with a car battery when they were younger and again it was mooted that as I had no guard on a (very fucjking dangerous) saw of mine it was not that bad as only I was using it. Now while we all might be perfect it is putting others in the path of harm that you really have to consider. The statistics (and reality) of accidents in the home is shocking -no pun intended!

[Beobloke]

Firstly, that's a nice guide and well photographed.

However, please IGNORE anyone who tells you to fit a 13A fuse no matter what the rating of your equipment. If the equipment's rating is less than 720W, fit a 3A fuse, if between 720 and 1200W, fit a 5A fuse and ONLY use a 13A fuse for over 1200W items. Generally speaking, unless you have some particularly monster power amps, there should be NO 13A fuses in your hi-fi's mains leads.

Secondly, your earth wire in the 3 pin plug is too short. The Earth wire should be the longest wire so that if you should inadvertently trip over or otherwise put a sudden strain on the cable and one or more of the wires pull out of the screw terminals, the Earth should be the last one to do so. When the live or neutral pulls out, the equipment will stop working and alert you to the issue. If the earth pulls out you may well not realise until something goes wrong and you find yourself inadvertently 'shaking hands with the National Grid'.

[Marco]

However, please IGNORE anyone who tells you to fit a 13A fuse no matter what the rating of your equipment. If the equipment's rating is less than 720W, fit a 3A fuse, if between 720 and 1200W, fit a 5A fuse and ONLY use a 13A fuse for over 1200W items. Generally speaking, unless you have some particularly monster power amps, there should be NO 13A fuses in your hi-fi's mains leads.

Thing is, Adam, there usually is. No decent hi-fi manufacturer I know of fits less than 13A fuses in their mains plugs (nor specialist cable manufacturers), for the sonic reasons discussed - and it's perfectly safe to do so, as Mark has ably outlined.

However, if you want to hobble your kit like that, then go right on ahead! ;)

Marco.

[Beobloke]

However, if you want to hobble your kit like that, then go right on ahead! ;)

Marco.

Even if I did actually have any credence in the belief that a 20mm length of solid fuse wire that is nowhere near the direct signal path of my equpiment actually makes a difference to the sound, than I'm afraid I'd still much rather 'hobble my kit' than the safety of my equipment and my loved ones.

[Marco]

I'd still much rather 'hobble my kit' than the safety of my equipment and my loved ones.


That's simply not the case, though, Adam - as long as the equipment is internally fused at the correct rating.

I'm all for prioritising safety, but only in relevant situations... And, sonically, it does make a difference. If you couldn't hear what substituting, say, a 5A fuse, for a 13A one, does, in the mains leads of a revealing system, then I'd very surprised indeed!!

The improvement gained is as a result of lowering impedance - something which is always of benefit to an audio system.

Anyway, each to his or her own, I guess :)

Marco.

[realysm42]

Marco, you inspired me to change the fuse in my amps plug from 10A to 13A and I used a de-oxit cloth on all of my plugs and xlr interconnects and speaker cables; I'm sure it's a combination of the two but wow, it's improved things nicely :D

I'm going to have to buy some more of them and get a cleaning schedule in place now.

[northwest]

Firstly, that's a nice guide and well photographed


Well thank you very much. I spent much of the morning doing it.


Secondly, your earth wire in the 3 pin plug is too short. The Earth wire should be the longest wire so that if you should inadvertently trip over or otherwise put a sudden strain on the cable and one or more of the wires pull out of the screw terminals, the Earth should be the last one to do so. When the live or neutral pulls out, the equipment will stop working and alert you to the issue. If the earth pulls out you may well not realise until something goes wrong and you find yourself inadvertently 'shaking hands with the National Grid'.

You may have missed it but the earth wire would have to snap as it is actually soldered in. I hear what you are saying though and if it was not soldered in there is a very good case to be made to provide "a bit of slack".

[Dingdong]

Even if I did actually have any credence in the belief that a 20mm length of solid fuse wire that is nowhere near the direct signal path of my equpiment actually makes a difference to the sound, than I'm afraid I'd still much rather 'hobble my kit' than the safety of my equipment and my loved ones.


I'd have to agree with Adams advice on this subject. Some of the other advice shows incredible fuckwittery. Before any of you go fitting higher rated fuses do you want to have a chat with your other halves and kits, and your insurance company first. Maybe explain to them it's a little bit less safe, but it does sound good.
The sooner this thread is deleted the better. If you want to know what fuses to fit go and ask a qualified electrician. Not some fuckwit on a forum. FFS!!

[Reid Malenfant]

I'd have to agree with Adams advice on this subject. Some of the other advice shows incredible fuckwittery. Before any of you go fitting higher rated fuses do you want to have a chat with your other halves and kits, and your insurance company first. Maybe explain to them it's a little bit less safe, but it does sound good.
The sooner this thread is deleted the better. If you want to know what fuses to fit go and ask a qualified electrician. Not some fuckwit on a forum. FFS!!
Mark, I'm really surprised at you & you obviously haven't read all the posts properly.

Let me make it clear to you so you can understand things a little clearer :)

Any hifi kit that uses either a motor or transformer (which I think covers 99.99% of things) will be internally fused!



This means that the fuse in the mains plug is only protecting the cable! So as long as you have a fuse fitted in the mains plug that will protect the cable then it is 100% safe!

So if the cable is 1.25mm^2 or greater then a 13A fuse is safe! If the cable is 1mm^2 then a 10A fuse is safe! If the cable is 0.5mm^2 then a 5A fuse is safe!


Or are you suggesting that people go & replace there MCBs in the consumer unit with ones rated at what the equipment is going to draw? No? I thought not as the MCB, like the fuse in the mains plug is rated to protect the cable.

As for calling me a fuckwit, I'll forgive you this once :D

[Barry]

Hello Mark,

Believe you me, you are not alone here! Every time this sort of thing crops up it raises my hackels, for reasons you have said. We even had someone suggest replacing the cartridge fuses with inch lengths of 1/4" diameter copper rod!!! :doh: :doh: :steam:

In the past when these suggestions are made, I have replied with the same message as yours. I have even approached the Moderators, expressing my concern. As a result a global warning was written, that could be flashed up.

Let me make it quite clear - if an accident were to occur and your insurance company found out you had tampered with anything electrical, your insurance would be null and void.

Without wishing to be rude, those who claim the presence of a fuse rated at less than 13A (or any fuse for that matter) presents a "bottle neck", simply don't understand electrical theory. Arguments that fitting a larger rated fuse reduces the mains source impedance are largely irrelevant:

A standard 3A (BS1316) fuse will have a resistance of ~50mOhm

A standard 13A (BS1316) fuse will have a resistance of ~4mOhm.

To put this into context, the typical source impedance of your mains supply will be around 300mOhm and often is a lot more.

Regards

[Reid Malenfant]

To put this into context, the typical source impedance of your mains supply will be around 300mOhm and often is a lot more.
Are you refering to the supply feeding a house? :eek:

So you are suggesting that there would be a minimum 30V drop on the mains voltage if I happened to draw the full 100A rating of the fuse on my supply?

I seriously doubt that, as it means 3KW would be dissipated in the cables feeding the house & I reckon they'd seriously overheat...

[Dingdong]

Well put Barry. Does anyone want to ring up their insurance company and explain that you've increased all the fuse ratings as you believe your music sounds better?
I've got a pretty good guess what their response will be.

You could also try telling it to your wife and kids. I'm sure they'll be well impressed.

Mains leccy is not something to be pissed about with.

[Marco]

Without wishing to be rude, those who claim the presence of a fuse rated at less than 13A (or any fuse for that matter) presents a "bottle neck", simply don't understand electrical theory.

Well, Barry, as ever in audio, theory only takes us so far. Ultimately, we can only go on what our ears tell us, and quite clearly others and I can hear a significant improvement when swapping a 'weedy' 5 amp fuse, in a 13A mains plug, for 13A one! ;)

Also, people are still happily using the old round-pin 15A plugs and sockets, which are LEGAL and contain NO FUSE whatsoever............ So what's going on there?

And also when people here (in the UK) fit fuse-less American and European style plugs (and sockets) to their mains leads and distribution blocks, respectively, which again, as far as I know, aren't illegal?

I'm all for preaching for safety, but only when it is relevant to do so.

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Well put Barry. Does anyone want to ring up their insurance company and explain that you've increased all the fuse ratings as you believe your music sounds better?
I've got a pretty good guess what their response will be.

You could also try telling it to your wife and kids. I'm sure they'll be well impressed.

Mains leccy is not something to be pissed about with.
Mark, are you assuming that people selling aftermarket cables with plugs & IEC sockets fitted are somehow telepathic & know exactly what the cable will be used on & rate the fuse accordingly? :rfl:

No! They fit a fuse that is designed to protect the cable! The hifi kit is internally fused, what part of that don't you understand? :rolleyes:

[Marco]

Mains leccy is not something to be pissed about with.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence, Mark, but perhaps you would care to explain why the likes of Naim audio, amongst others I could quote, supply ALL of their brand new (supposedly CE approved) equipment, fitted with 13A fuses in the mains plugs?

Marco.

[Dingdong]

I wholeheartedly agree with you last sentence, Mark, but perhaps you would care to explain why the likes of Naim audio, amongst others I could quote, supply ALL of their brand new (supposedly CE approved) equipment, fitted with 13A fuses in the mains plugs?

Marco.


Fucks knows mate. Perhaps you could call your insurance company and get their response to fuse rating increases and publish it on here.

[Marco]

No! They fit a fuse that is designed to protect the cable! The hifi kit is internally fused, what part of that don't you understand? :rolleyes:

Precisely!! I'm sorry to say, but the stance taken by Mark and Barry, in this instance, is quite simply unnecessary scaremongering.

Marco.

[Marco]

Fucks knows mate. Perhaps you could call your insurance company and get their response to fuse rating increases and publish it on here.

That's just side-stepping the issue! It's either electrically safe (as possible) or it isn't.

Presumably a well-known and respected audio equipment manufacturer, like Naim, would know, or get their asses sued accordingly, if they were wrong?

Marco.

[Barry]

Are you refering to the supply feeding a house? :eek:

So you are suggesting that there would be a minimum 30V drop on the mains voltage if I happened to draw the full 100A rating of the fuse on my supply?

I seriously doubt that, as it means 3KW would be dissipated in the cables feeding the house & I reckon they'd seriously overheat...

I have measured the source impedance of my mains supply at the socket supplying my system: it was < 0.2 Ohm. Discussion of this result, along with other parameters measured, with an AoS member (who works in the electricity supply business) commented it was a low value, so I presume other installations can have a higher value of source impedance.

I have not measured the source impedance at the meter tails, so cannot reply to your 3kW source loss at 100A.

[Dingdong]

That's just side-stepping the issue! It's either electrically safe or it isn't.

Presumably a well-known and respected audio equipment manufacturer, like Naim, would know, or get their ass sued accordingly, if they were wrong?

Marco.


Would you agree that fitting a higher rated fuse than normal is less safe?

[Marco]

Would you agree that you *could* get run over by a bus, whilst crossing the road?

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Ah, different kettle of fish Barry. You are refering to a socket on one of the rings & not the feed to the house, makes a little more sense now you have disclosed what you were measuring & where :)

That's quite possible & it's still pretty high isn't it :rolleyes:

Perhaps this is why people get a dedicated spur installed to lower the supply impedance & increase the performance of their equipment. Please remember though that the electrician will fit an MCB or RCD that is rated to protect the cable & not the equipment that will be powered by it.

This is exactly what I'm saying regarding the lead from socket to equipment, the fuse & indeed the whole thing is safe as long as the fuse is rated to protect the cable. The equipment has it's own fuse to protect the equipment.

[Dingdong]

Would you agree that you *could* get run over by a bus, whilst crossing the road?

Marco.

That's a bullshit response and you know it.

[Marco]

This is exactly what I'm saying regarding the lead from socket to equipment, the fuse & indeed the whole thing is safe as long as the fuse is rated to protect the cable. The equipment has it's own fuse to protect the equipment.

No matter how many times you state that FACT, mate, it still won't sink in, when the 'electricity police' are around!! ;)

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Would you agree that fitting a higher rated fuse than normal is less safe?
As long as the equipment is fused internally then the fuse in the mains plug is only protecting the bloody cable! So as long as the fuse is rated to protect the power cable & isn't overated it is 100% safe! As safe as fitting a fuse that protects the equipment to if you must :cool:

[Reid Malenfant]

No matter how many times you state that FACT, mate, it still won't sink in, when the 'electricity police' are around!! ;)

Marco.
:rfl: @ electricity police :eyebrows:

[Marco]

That's a bullshit response and you know it.

Nope, it's a response which is designed to show that there is just about as much chance of you getting run over by a bus, whilst crossing the road (presuming that one was sober and in full control of one's faculties), as you would get electrocuted, after fitting a 13A fuse to a plug, powering audio equipment, which is all correctly fused internally!!! ;)

Marco.

[Dingdong]

Nope, it's a response which is designed to show that there is just about as much chance of you getting run over by a bus, whilst crossing the road, as you would get electrocuted, after fitting a 13A fuse to a plug, powering audio equipment, which is all correctly fused internally!!! ;)

Marco.

What the fucking hell has it got to do with being electrocuted? For crying out loud.
If anyone wants to go fitted higher rated fuses please check with your insurance company, wife, family, neighbours first and get their response.
Then do whatever you think is best.

[Marco]

It's a simple matter of risk assessment. I don't wear a special helmet either to protect me, should I ever get struck by lightning. Now please change the record!

Marco.

[Dingdong]

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13851

[synsei]

I can see both sides of this debate but I'd rather err on the side of caution. There is too much valuable equipment in this house should the worst happen, only for my insurance company to drop me like a stone. I couldn't afford to replace any of it from my own pocket for quite a while :eyebrows:

[Reid Malenfant]

What the fucking hell has it got to do with being electrocuted? For crying out loud.
If anyone wants to go fitted higher rated fuses please check with your insurance company, wife, family, neighbours first and get their response.
Then do whatever you think is best.
FFS, fitting a fuse that is rated to protect the cable will in no way stop you being electrocuted.

Humans tend to have a resistance of about 2000 ohms when sweating & depending on where on the body each contact is made. This will result in a current of 0.12Amps flowing!

Now I don't see a 3Amp fuse blowing there, in fact it won't - it NEVER WOULD! The fuse in the mains plug is bugger all to do with electrocution & everything to do with protecting the cable downstream of the plug!

Jeez, I think you need to get some electrical knowledge before jumping the gun.

[Dingdong]

I can see both sides of this debate but I'd rather err on the side of caution. There is too much valuable equipment in this house should the worst happen, only for my insurance company to drop me like a stone. I couldn't afford to replace any of it from my own pocket for quite a while :eyebrows:

It's not just your equipment Dave. It's your missus and kids.

[Marco]

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13851


That warning applies to anyone thinking of replacing fuses inside plugs with a copper bar, or other similar lunacy - NOT what is being discussed here, which is, as Mark has stated, safe (or as safe as anything in life can ever be).

Now, have you quite finished?

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

I can see both sides of this debate but I'd rather err on the side of caution. There is too much valuable equipment in this house should the worst happen, only for my insurance company to drop me like a stone. I couldn't afford to replace any of it from my own pocket for quite a while :eyebrows:
You'd better make sure you are using the power cable that was originally supplied with the Hafler power amp & all your other equipment then Dave ;)

Don't get them mixed up mate as your insurance will be invalid :lol:

Jesus....

[Marco]

I can see both sides of this debate but I'd rather err on the side of caution. There is too much valuable equipment in this house should the worst happen, only for my insurance company to drop me like a stone. I couldn't afford to replace any of it from my own pocket for quite a while :eyebrows:

That's a valid, and very different argument. It's up to you (and whoever else lives with you) to assess that risk. However, this inappropriate scaremongering, implying that we're all going to die in our beds, because we've fitted 13A fuses to our hi-fi plugs, is bloody ridiculous :rolleyes:

Marco.

[Dingdong]

FFS, fitting a fuse that is rated to protect the cable will in no way stop you being electrocuted.

Humans tend to have a resistance of about 2000 ohms when sweating & depending on where on the body each contact is made. This will result in a current of 0.12Amps flowing!

Now I don't see a 3Amp fuse blowing there, in fact it won't - it NEVER WOULD! The fuse in the mains plug is bugger all to do with electrocution & everything to do with protecting the cable downstream of the plug!

Jeez, I think you need to get some electrical knowledge before jumping the gun.


Please re-read my post.

I studied electrickery at college, and have worked with different types of it for the past 20-odd years. I guess I have picked up a tiny bit of knowledge.
There are bits I don't know. Those bits I'd ask advice from a knowledgeable, qualified person. Not some bloke off of a hifi forum.

[Dingdong]

That's a valid, and very different argument. It's up to you (and whoever else lives with you) to assess that risk. However, this ridiculous scaremongering, implying that we're all going to die in our beds, because we've fitted 13A fuses to our hi-fi plugs, is bloody ridiculous :rolleyes:

Marco.

I never said you will die in your beds. I will say that you are increasing your chances of it happening, though.

Anybody want to Google 'causes of electrical fires'?

[Marco]

Those bits I'd ask advice from a knowledgeable, qualified person. Not some bloke off of a hifi forum.


I think you're underestimating Mark's knowledge of electrics. And, in that respect, you're as much a "bloke off of a hifi forum" as he is! So what makes your contrary opinion any more 'correct'? Are you a qualified professional in this area?

Now, I must ask that you desist from this ridiculous 'tirade'. Any further remarks from you of that nature will be deleted without further warning.

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Please re-read my post.
Yep, re-read you post & you talk of being electrocuted.

What the fuck has that got to do with the fuse rating when even a 3Amp fuse won't blow if you electrocute yourself?

From one who has studied elecktrickery as you call it I'd like some kind of scientific answer & not arms waving about proclaiming the end of the world.

[tommy6206]

Well I have just checked 4 manuals of different hifi gear and all of them state 5 amp fuse..One of them was for an amp.

[chelsea]

Why do they make different size fuses if it's just to protect a cable?

[Marco]

Hi Gary,

Some manufacturers will adopt that approach, others won't. It doesn't demean or disprove anything that Mark (RM) or I have written.

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Why do they make different size fuses if it's just to protect a cable?
Cables come in different cross sectional areas, these have different current ratings. Therfore a different rating of fuse is needed to protect different cables.

A few examples, 0.5mm^2, 0.75mm^2, 1mm^1, 1.25mm^2 (^2 refers to squared, so 0.5mm^2 would be 0.5mm in area).

[chelsea]

Wouldn't it be easier to just use a 13amp one to cover all bases?

[synsei]

It's not just your equipment Dave. It's your missus and kids.

Every piece of electrical equipment in this house is fitted with a correctly rated fuse therefore I have no worries on that score Mark.

I do feel you are taking this a bit too far. In my younger days I used to fit 13 amp fuses to everything and I'm still here despite a few blown fuses. In every case either the 13 amp fuse blew or the circuit breaker popped out on the distribution panel, often both. Once the problems with the equipment were isolated and fixed, each item returned to normal operation with no ill effects.

It should be noted that if anyone is at all unsure about messing with mains voltages or equipment, call in a professional.

[realysm42]

I'd like some kind of scientific answer & not arms waving about proclaiming the end of the world.

:lol:

[Reid Malenfant]

Wouldn't it be easier to just use a 13amp one to cover all bases?
No, that'd be unsafe!

Please take your time to look through all my postings on this thread, in fact look at every post & read it carefully.

A 13A fuse is not safe feeding a 0.5mm^2 cable, that size cable needs a 5A fuse in the plug to be 100% safe. A 13A fuse isn't safe feeding either a 0.75mm^2 or 1mm^2 mains cables as they need 7A & 10A respectively.

A 13A fuse is only safe to use on a cable which has a cross sectional area of 1.25mm^2 or more.

If you don't know what cable you have then play safe & fit a smaller fuse.

[tommy6206]

Hi Gary,

Some manufacturers will adopt that approach, others won't. It doesn't demean or disprove anything that Mark (RM) or I have written.

Marco.

Not taking sides here as I will use what ever fuse I have to hand.:doh:
But all this talk of audio fuse's to me seems bs.I mean gold plated end caps sound better but still use the same little bit of fuse wire in side the fuse.Yes gold is a good conductor of electric but unless the inside of the end caps are plated as well I don't see the point and as said still use the same fuse wire inside.
I do however agree on clean contacts plugs/fuses and mains conditioning upto a point.And the prices for such :mental:

[Beobloke]

If I may quote from the PAT Testing Electrical Safety guidelines (in which I am qualified) -

The fuse is required to protect the flex, as British wiring allows high-current circuits; without the fuse the flex is not considered to be sufficiently protected. Accepted practice is to choose from the commonly available ratings (3 A, 5 A, and 13 A) the smallest rating that will allow for the appliance's peak power consumption

"Accepted practice" of course does not mean that one has to follow the guidelines, however in matters such as electrical safety, accepted practice usually becomes accepted for a reason.

[realysm42]

Not taking sides here as I will use what ever fuse I have to hand.:doh:
But all this talk of audio fuse's to me seems bs.I mean gold plated end caps sound better but still use the same little bit of fuse wire in side the fuse.Yes gold is a good conductor of electric but unless the inside of the end caps are plated as well I don't see the point and as said still use the same fuse wire inside.
I do however agree on clean contacts plugs/fuses and mains conditioning upto a point.And the prices for such :mental:

By that logic would you agree it's pointless having fancy cables in your system, given there's miles of bog standard stuff connecting you to the national grid?

[synsei]

You'd better make sure you are using the power cable that was originally supplied with the Hafler power amp & all your other equipment then Dave ;)

Don't get them mixed up mate as your insurance will be invalid :lol:

Jesus....

The mains cables I use are sourced from Dave at MCRU and seeing as he is a consummate professional, I trust that his cables are more than up to the job :ner:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Marco,

Cant you lock this thread to just stop the pointless bickering?? I always thought AOS was a friendly place and not somewhere to slag each other off. This all started out with some forum member taking time out to do an excellent tutorial on how to wire a plug (his way of doing things). Do you not think that it might put some of the less experienced members off from doing something similar for fear of being slagged off by members that get hot under the collar about a bloody fuse???? Do you not think it might be better to agree to disagree? :peace:

[tommy6206]

Mains cable yes.But as said above mains conditioning I agree with upto a piont.The unit itself still has the same cable inside that it left the factory with.

[Dingdong]

If I may quote from the PAT Testing Electrical Safety guidelines (in which I am qualified) -

The fuse is required to protect the flex, as British wiring allows high-current circuits; without the fuse the flex is not considered to be sufficiently protected. Accepted practice is to choose from the commonly available ratings (3 A, 5 A, and 13 A) the smallest rating that will allow for the appliance's peak power consumption

"Accepted practice" of course does not mean that one has to follow the guidelines, however in matters such as electrical safety, accepted practice usually becomes accepted for a reason.

:clapclapclap:

[Reid Malenfant]

If I may quote from the PAT Testing Electrical Safety guidelines (in which I am qualified) -

The fuse is required to protect the flex, as British wiring allows high-current circuits; without the fuse the flex is not considered to be sufficiently protected. Accepted practice is to choose from the commonly available ratings (3 A, 5 A, and 13 A) the smallest rating that will allow for the appliance's peak power consumption

"Accepted practice" of course does not mean that one has to follow the guidelines, however in matters such as electrical safety, accepted practice usually becomes accepted for a reason.
Adam, I know you aren't daft, well I don't think you are...

You are quoting stuff that feeds white goods or kitchen appliances THAT HAVE NO INTERNAL FUSE!

Any hifi kit will have an internal fuse as it has all sorts of components that run on different voltages & a lot more to protect.

In the case of internally fused equipment with a fuse that happens to be internal & designed to protect that equipment, the fuse in the mains plug only needs to protect the cable feeding the equipment!

I'm not going to bang my head against the wall any more. This is my last post on this thread, enjoy yourselves & note that I have been electrocuted hundreds of times in my life & with up to 4.5KV on more occasions than 230V mains. No fuses blew as none would as they are rated to protect the bloody cable & not me!

While I don't recommend electrocution the damn fuse is there to stop a FIRE! It's there to blow before the cable insulation melts & ignites :)

[synsei]

Marco,

Cant you lock this thread to just stop the pointless bickering?? I always thought AOS was a friendly place and not somewhere to slag each other off. This all started out with some forum member taking time out to do an excellent tutorial on how to wire a plug (his way of doing things). Do you not think that it might put some of the less experienced members off from doing something similar for fear of being slagged off by members that get hot under the collar about a bloody fuse???? Do you not think it might be better to agree to disagree? :peace:

I couldn't agree more :clapclapclap:

[Reid Malenfant]

The mains cables I use are sourced from Dave at MCRU and seeing as he is a consummate professional, I trust that his cables are more than up to the job :ner:
Did he ask you what it was powering & the rating of the fuse to be fitted?

Erm let me think....NO!

So I reckon you'll find 13A fuses in the mains plugs AS THE BASTARD FUSE IS THERE TO PROTECT THE CABLE!

:eyebrows:

[Marco]

Hi Andy,


Marco,

Cant you lock this thread to just stop the pointless bickering?? I always thought AOS was a friendly place and not somewhere to slag each other off. This all started out with some forum member taking time out to do an excellent tutorial on how to wire a plug (his way of doing things). Do you not think that it might put some of the less experienced members off from doing something similar for fear of being slagged off by members that get hot under the collar about a bloody fuse???? Do you not think it might be better to agree to disagree? :peace:

Point taken. However, I hate locking threads, unless it's absolutely necessary, as it stifles discussion and acts as a form of censorship.

I think now that what's said has been said, as it were, the thread can move on, develop constructively, and provide some genuinely useful information; indeed I will be ensuring that this is the case! ;)

Marco.

[synsei]

I've already mentioned that I can see both sides of the debate Mark but I choose to err on the side of caution, which doesn't mean either of us is wrong. I choose to do it this way and I expect people to respect my choice. If other members choose to replace all their fuses with ones rated at 13 amps then that's fine with me as long as they are fully aware of the rules and regs on the subject. I wouldn't be so crass as to force my opinion on them ;)

[Reid Malenfant]

Dave, at no point have I suggested replacing all the fuses with 13A ones ;) Please go back over my posts & you'll see I have suggested that increasing the fuse value is only acceptable as long as the fuse is still rated to protect the mains cable itself.

[Barry]

Ah, different kettle of fish Barry. You are refering to a socket on one of the rings & not the feed to the house, makes a little more sense now you have disclosed what you were measuring & where :)

That's quite possible & it's still pretty high isn't it :rolleyes:

Perhaps this is why people get a dedicated spur installed to lower the supply impedance & increase the performance of their equipment. Please remember though that the electrician will fit an MCB or RCD that is rated to protect the cable & not the equipment that will be powered by it.

This is exactly what I'm saying regarding the lead from socket to equipment, the fuse & indeed the whole thing is safe as long as the fuse is rated to protect the cable. The equipment has it's own fuse to protect the equipment.

Actually the source impedance is complex; it has an inductive reactive component. However I stand by my measurement, the low value is corroborated by this article: http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_Z.html .

[synsei]

Dave, at no point have I suggested replacing all the fuses with 13A ones ;) Please go back over my posts & you'll see I have suggested that increasing the fuse value is only acceptable as long as the fuse is still rated to protect the mains cable itself.

Yup, I totally get that, it's a shame that others didn't :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Hi Adam,


If I may quote from the PAT Testing Electrical Safety guidelines (in which I am qualified) -

The fuse is required to protect the flex, as British wiring allows high-current circuits; without the fuse the flex is not considered to be sufficiently protected. Accepted practice is to choose from the commonly available ratings (3 A, 5 A, and 13 A) the smallest rating that will allow for the appliance's peak power consumption

"Accepted practice" of course does not mean that one has to follow the guidelines, however in matters such as electrical safety, accepted practice usually becomes accepted for a reason.

Thanks for that. There's nothing there, though, that most of us didn't already know, so it changes nothing, as far as this discussion is concerned.

I note, however, that you didn't embolden the equally relevant part, here:


The fuse is required to protect the flex, as British wiring allows high-current circuits; without the fuse the flex is not considered to be sufficiently protected.


;)

The main focus is on the flex, not the equipment, for a good reason.

Marco.

[northwest]

Marco,

Cant you lock this thread to just stop the pointless bickering?? I always thought AOS was a friendly place and not somewhere to slag each other off. This all started out with some forum member taking time out to do an excellent tutorial on how to wire a plug (his way of doing things). Do you not think that it might put some of the less experienced members off from doing something similar for fear of being slagged off by members that get hot under the collar about a bloody fuse???? Do you not think it might be better to agree to disagree? :peace:

Andrew, thank you for putting my thoughts into words.
So what have I learned here?
Well for sure I have learned that my time on a Sunday morning is far better spent lounging around in the garden than seemingly wasting it trying to contribute something to a forum where it appears, from my perspective certainly, that there is a core of smartasses who clearly know how to wire a plug and should anyone care to know how to do this they will no doubt get off their arses and put a tutorial together.
I await with baited breath.

[Marco]

Discussions on forums about the mains quite often get heated - much more so elsewhere than we would allow on AoS.

I thought that your pictorial was excellent, Graham, so don't let the ensuing little 'fracas' put you off, matey! It was much appreciated, and will no doubt have been of use to many :)

Marco.

[Barry]

Before you lock this thread Marco, let me clear up a few things.

First of all the original post is a well written and useful article and if I, amongst others, have 'crapped' on it then I apologise.

I don't feel I am guilty of unnecessary scaremongering. I was suggesting that if the fuse in a mains lead, supplied by a manufacturer for use with one of his designs, was changed for one of a higher rating, in the event of an accident the insurers would not treat any claim particularly favourably. I believe we have some members who work for insurance companies. Perhaps they could comment?

If Naim et al. supply mains leads fitted with 13A fuses then the insurance company would be quite happy. Only if the supplied fuse is changed for one of a different value.

At no time did I state changing the fuse could not have an audible effect, though I'm highly sceptical. But just because I can't hear any change doesn't mean others can't.

As far as I know the round pin 15A plugs and sockets are only legal in new installations where the load is controlled remotely, such as with theatre or television studio spotlights. Existing domestic installations using the original 15A connectors will have a 15A fuse protecting each socket. I don't think new installations using this system would pass the latest regulations.

Likewise with the use of non-UK connectors. If these are used on a distribution strip, they will be covered by the 13A fuse in the plug. The use of non-UK wall sockets is definitely not allowed.

[MCRU]

Nice thread at the start, nice guy trying to help others, pity about the rest.

[Marco]

Hi Barry,


Before you lock this thread Marco, let me clear up a few things.


I'm not locking it, mate. I shall comment on the rest that you wrote later :)

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Actually the source impedance is complex; it has an inductive reactive component. However I stand by my measurement, the low value is corroborated by this article: http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_Z.html .
Yes, interesting artical Barry. The fact that just about 99.99% of equipment only draws current on voltage peaks due to rectification (after a transformer) & a bank of capacitors following it wasn't mentioned, as that'd worsen things I reckon.

In fact it may well look like that purple line as the increase in frequency could in certain respects be attributed to the forward conduction of diodes & it's not too far out :) While the mains has frequency of 50Hz the diodes in a bridge will maybe only be conducting for 1milli second or less which will give rise to stupendous current draw while they are conducting if suppling any average current at all.

I'd expect current peaks of 10A with a 1A device (or vastly more) & 100A peaks with anything that would need a 10A supply...

In this case the supply impedance becomes vastly more critical, it needs to be as low as possible :)

[Beechwoods]

Andrew, thank you for putting my thoughts into words.
So what have I learned here?
Well for sure I have learned that my time on a Sunday morning is far better spent lounging around in the garden than seemingly wasting it trying to contribute something to a forum where it appears, from my perspective certainly, that there is a core of smartasses who clearly know how to wire a plug and should anyone care to know how to do this they will no doubt get off their arses and put a tutorial together.
I await with baited breath.

Most people visiting your thread will enjoy your original post, and scan the first few pages of follow-up. I think you did an excellent job showing how to thoroughly wire a plug, it's just an inevitability that anything regarding cables or fuses encourages the most fervent of passions. You did leave out a few steps to encourage discussion, afterall ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andrew, thank you for putting my thoughts into words.
So what have I learned here?
Well for sure I have learned that my time on a Sunday morning is far better spent lounging around in the garden than seemingly wasting it trying to contribute something to a forum where it appears, from my perspective certainly, that there is a core of smartasses who clearly know how to wire a plug and should anyone care to know how to do this they will no doubt get off their arses and put a tutorial together.
I await with baited breath.

Thanks;) But dont let the others put you off. I've posted some real howlers on here. But I'm a firm believer in that if you dont ask you dont learn.
I managed to get a similar response to yours with a five word reply in a post I made about the fact i'd swapped some screws in my 1210. I gave up posting on that thread in the end, hoping it would die! It's amazing how people get very hot under the collar about bugger all. I for one enjoyed your work and look forward to seeing more of it. :D

[Marco]

Hi Barry,


First of all the original post is a well written and useful article and if I, amongst others, have 'crapped' on it then I apologise.


No worries, but it was a little like that, with comments of yours, such as this:


Hello Mark,

Believe you me, you are not alone here! Every time this sort of thing crops up it raises my hackels, for reasons you have said.


...where you appeared to be supporting Mark (Dingdong's) view of both Mark (Reid Malenfant) and me being rather rudely and inappropriately referred to as "fuckwits" ;)


I was suggesting that if the fuse in a mains lead, supplied by a manufacturer for use with one of his designs, was changed for one of a higher rating, in the event of an accident the insurers would not treat any claim particularly favourably. I believe we have some members who work for insurance companies. Perhaps they could comment?


I have no problem at all with that comment. That's a different argument entirely.


If Naim et al. supply mains leads fitted with 13A fuses then the insurance company would be quite happy. Only if the supplied fuse is changed for one of a different value.


Well, in my circumstances then, I'm fine, since all the equipment I use was originally supplied with mains leads, fitted with 13A fuses in the plugs, simply because the manufacturers concerned recognised the sonic consequences of supplying ones fitted with smaller fuses, and also understood the electrical and safety implications of using 13A fuses, in the plugs on mains leads supplied with their equipment, as correctly outlined by Mark (RM)! ;)


At no time did I state changing the fuse could not have an audible effect, though I'm highly sceptical. But just because I can't hear any change doesn't mean others can't.


Yes, but when you wrote earlier:


Without wishing to be rude, those who claim the presence of a fuse rated at less than 13A (or any fuse for that matter) presents a "bottle neck", simply don't understand electrical theory. Arguments that fitting a larger rated fuse reduces the mains source impedance are largely irrelevant...


...you were implying that others and I, who support the view that smaller fuses than 13A ones in plugs, fitted to mains leads supplying audio equipment, creates a 'bottleneck', don't understand electrical theory.

Well, bugger 'electrical theory'; I know what I can hear in practice!! And what I can hear is a significant degradation in sound quality from my equipment, if I fit less than 13A fuses inside the plugs on the mains leads.

As for: "Arguments that fitting a larger rated fuse reduces the mains source impedance are largely irrelevant" - well, they're not in any way "irrelevant" to me, as I can clearly hear the difference that lowering the impedance in this way makes, when fitting the highest rated fuse possible, which is safe to use in a specific application.

The fact is that, in audio, fuses are a necessary evil. Unquestionably, they ALL act as 'bottlenecks', as indeed does anything else that creates resistance, and thus impedes the ability of equipment to perform optimally, sonically, and in turn, reproduce recorded music as faithfully as possible.

Marco.

[Beobloke]

The fact is that, in audio, fuses are a necessary evil. Unquestionably, they ALL act as 'bottlenecks'....

OK then, your argument that a 13A fuse in a lead is fine if the equipment in question has its own fuse.

Let's therefore consider for a moment something like a CD player will may have an internal fuse somewhere in the region of 500mA. Therefore if you believe that the 3A to 13A change removes a botleneck, what about the 500mA bottleneck straight after it?!

[Marco]

Hi Adam,

The exercise is about removing as many 'bottlenecks' as possible - not every 'bottleneck' that exits, which of course isn't possible....

As has been well documented, the internal fuse is there to protect the equipment, in the event of a fault, and if one is using a 13A fuse in the mains plug, then one needs full protection at the equipment end. Therefore, unless one is willing to risk (potentially serious) damage to one's equipment, the 'bottleneck' of the internal fuse, specified by the manufacturer (as you've referred to), must remain in place.

Fortunately, much of my kit is made by people whom I know personally, and so I consult with them, in terms of ascertaining the biggest value of fuse I can get away with using, whilst retaining the necessary protection and safety. Therefore all my gear is fused at the correct rating, as stipulated by the manufacturer, but with an eye on achieving maximum possible sonic performance.

In fact, believe it or not, I've listened to the effect created by numerous fuses of the same rating, from different manufacturers, and found notable sonic differences in all of them. In the end, I found the ceramic-bodied ones, from RS, to be best. I also use some Hi-fi Tuning, 'audiophile grade', fuses in certain places, which are very effective. Directionality, rather bizarrely, with all fuses, also makes a difference. Yes, that's the attention to detail that I go to, in order to eke out every ounce of performance from my kit! :eyebrows:

That attitude is responsible for why my system sounds so good!! ;)

Marco.

[Reffc]

Just a note of caution to anyone thinking of tinning the ends of the bare wire before inserting into the plug...don't! It's against electrical Regs to do this as the solder will "creep" under prolonged strain from the pressure from the screws holding it down and could come loose. Its bad practice to tin the ends before screwing down the connectors. All you need to do is to twist the bare wire and pinch tight with the screws. It's not going anywhere if you do this. There's no need to solder the connections when done. Just a helpful piece of advice I hope!

[tommy6206]

Just a note of caution to anyone thinking of tinning the ends of the bare wire before inserting into the plug...don't! It's against electrical Regs to do this as the solder will "creep" under prolonged strain from the pressure from the screws holding it down and could come loose. Its bad practice to tin the ends before screwing down the connectors. All you need to do is to twist the bare wire and pinch tight with the screws. It's not going anywhere if you do this. There's no need to solder the connections when done. Just a helpful piece of advice I hope!

Well if tinning the wire is against regs why do most manufactures do it or did..

[Reffc]

Well if tinning the wire is against regs why do most manufactures do it or did..

I can't tell you that, but I can say that for example within the NHS maintenance teams this practice is banned as the connections can come loose over time. Its basic safety advice to follow or ignore as you like for DIY projects, but as someone with experience in this field I would simply caution against the practice.

[realysm42]

Marco (or anyone that knows/has tinkered) - does directionality exists with every fuse, even generic ones?

[Marco]

Hi Martin,

As far as I know, all fuses are directional, provided that you can hear the effect, in the first place. It's a subtle one.

Best thing to do is try fitting fuses both ways round, and see if you can hear any difference - and if one way round sounds better than the other, then keep them in that way! :)

Marco.

[tommy6206]

How can fuses be directional they work on ac current :doh:

[Marco]

How can a lot of things be what they are, when the 'facts' say one thing, and our ears often say something else? Basically, that which we can genuinely hear, in audio, is NOT being imagined. Or another way of putting it is, not everything in hi-fi is as 'black and white', as you might think! ;)

Marco.

[Puffin]

Mine are defo directional. When I fitted them they were naturally vertical to the plane of the hot and cold pins. Simples.

[tommy6206]

must be all that fairy dust and too much :cool::cool::lol::lol:

[Marco]

:lolsign:

Marco.

[realysm42]

I'll have a go, cheers.

How comes you only use high grade in certain places Marco? Did you decide they were only cost effective/noticable in certain parts of the stereo? If so, which places do you choose to use them please?

[Marco]

It was rather like you say, Martin.

I analysed the effect of using the 'audiophile grade' ones throughout the system, by testing them first on individual components, using one at a time, and ascertaining where the biggest sonic gains were to be had. 'Sound-per-pound' is still a concept that I value!

Whilst, each component benefited from their use, the effect was less obvious the further down in the chain equipment was, and so I settled on using the 'fancy' ones in my source components (and/or associated PSUs), and the best quality 'standard' types on my amps.

Therefore, if you're going to try some, then your main source(s) are where I would use them first. Note that you can get 'audiophile grade' fuses for both those used in mains plugs and also internal equipment fuses.

My advice would be first of all to try two: a 13A one in the mains plug of your main source component, and an internal fuse for inside whatever component that is. Make sure that you get the RIGHT type of fuse, in terms of amperage rating, and for internal fuses, whether they are a time-delay or 'quick blow' type. You want to replicate the existing fuses you have now, in terms of both of those important factors.

The Hi-Fi Tuning fuses are the ones I'd recommend, or those available from Furutech, if you can afford them! Good luck and let us know how you get on :cool:

Marco.

[Dingdong]

How can fuses be directional they work on ac currunt :doh:

The laws of physics don't count when it comes to hifi. Did you not know that? :lol:

[Marco]

What's a "currunt", anyway? Summat you put in a bun? :D

Marco.

[tommy6206]

Sorry a bit of a typo :ner: but there cheaper than those audio fuse's and probably sound better :eyebrows:

[Puffin]

Sorry a bit of a typo :ner: but there cheaper

And another :doh:

[realysm42]

So far we've had the electric police and the grammar police in this thread, anymore want to join?

:eek:

[Marco]

The Panty Police are on their way.

Marco.

[brian2957]

You're all gonna get nickered.

[MCRU]

Let's have some sexy images to lighten the mood.........................................

http://www.inner-magazines.com/uploads/images/News/Audio/Reviews/components2/Hifi_tuning%20fuse.jpg

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/images/isoclean_closeup.jpg

http://www.partsconnexion.com/media/product/ac/FTECH_FUSE.jpg

[Reid Malenfant]

Hi Martin,

As far as I know, all fuses are directional, provided that you can hear the effect, in the first place. It's a subtle one.

Best thing to do is try fitting fuses both ways round, and see if you can hear any difference - and if one way round sounds better than the other, then keep them in that way! :)

Marco.
While the fuse is on an AC supply where the current is going back & forth at 50 times a second I'm incredibly sceptical about this. After all with the current reversing 50 times a second you'd expect any effects to cancel out now wouldn't you ;) So it should make no difference what so ever imho :) Notice I highlighted the "should"....

After all if there is some kind of psuedo diode effect on conduction one way it'll be cancelled out when the AC waveform reverses. So polarity of fuses makes no sense to me in the slightest, so I'll ignore it :cool:

How can fuses be directional they work on ac current :doh:
Not all fuses work on AC, admittedly any in a mains cable will, but they'd still rupture at a similar current used on a DC line. You'll no doubt find fuses in most amplifiers on the DC line/s following the power supply. Though not all :) They'll still blow at the same current no matter which way you install them.

[tommy6206]

While the fuse is on an AC supply where the current is going back & forth at 50 times a second I'm incredibly sceptical about this. After all with the current reversing 50 times a second you'd expect any effects to cancel out now wouldn't you ;) So it should make no difference what so ever imho :) Notice I highlighted the "should"....

After all if there is some kind of psuedo diode effect on conduction one way it'll be cancelled out when the AC waveform reverses. So polarity of fuses makes no sense to me in the slightest, so I'll ignore it :cool:

Not all fuses work on AC, admittedly any in a mains cable will, but they'd still rupture at a similar current used on a DC line. You'll no doubt find fuses in most amplifiers on the DC line/s following the power supply. Though not all :) They'll still blow at the same current no matter which way you install them.

Yes I know they will work on DC as well as AC but the thread was about fuses in the mains plug so in this case AC.Think I will have to get me some of that fairy dust..:lol:

[tommy6206]

And another :doh:

Dont think so.

[Beechwoods]

Dont think so.

:stalks: :stalks: :eek: Wot no apostrophe?!

[Marco]

The Apostrophe Police are now in da house! :surf:

Marco.

[tommy6206]

:stalks: :stalks: :eek: Wot no apostrophe?!

No but I have a few of these :finger::finger:

[Beechwoods]

:booty::booty::whippin:

[Beobloke]

As far as I know, all fuses are directional,

With all due respect Marco, how can a fuse possibly be directional? - it's a piece of wire!!

Leaving aside any extremely unlikely issues this might cause with sound quality if fuses were directional, more importantly this would mean that their blow characteristics and possibly their current rating would be different depending on which way round they were fitted. This wouldn't make them a very safe safety device!

[Marco]

Hi Adam,

Allow me to amend that statement...

I should've said: "As far as I know, to my ears, all fuses seem to be directional (not in a factual sense), but in the sense that I can (usually) clearly hear that one way round sounds better than the other, (when used inside audio equipment) therefore this suggests to me that they are directional (just like every other piece of wire I've used before in a hi-fi system).

I know you still won't agree with that, but the distinction is important. I'm not attempting in any way to be 'technically correct'; merely reporting what I can subjectively clearly (and repeatedly) hear, when using fuses in my audio equipment :)

Marco.

[synsei]

Forgive me for saying so, but is there not a slight element of OCD sneaking onto this thread? :lol:

[Marco]

Could be... But it might just be a load of Phooey! I'd ask the janitor:

geYszCBkRBM

Marco.

[synsei]

Love dat show... :D :hifive:

[Beobloke]

Forgive me for saying so, but is there not a slight element of OCD sneaking onto this thread? :lol:

That's a disgraceful accusation. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to wash my hands for the 37th time this morning....

[Marco]

Have you been looking at 'those sites' on your Favourites list again? ;)

Marco.

[synsei]

That's a disgraceful accusation. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to wash my hands for the 37th time this morning....


Have you been looking at 'those sites' on your Favourites list again? ;)

:laugh:

[AlfaGTV]

Well what you know at the end of the day?
This one seems not only be a fuse, it is also a capacitor AND a diode if my schematics reading isn't totally gone?
http://www.inner-magazines.com/uploads/images/News/Audio/Reviews/components2/Hifi_tuning%20fuse.jpg

If you put one of these in your power grid cables, will you only be delivering like 115Volts DC to your transformers? :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Hi Mike,

Mmm... I can't see that being the case, otherwise there's no way I'd be hearing an improvement! :nono:

There must be another explanation. The intenal Hi-Fi Tuning equipment fuses I'm using are TINY, so I can't see much room in them to fit a diode and capacitor, unless they're the size of an atom!!

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Well what you know at the end of the day?
This one seems not only be a fuse, it is also a capacitor AND a diode if my schematics reading isn't totally gone?
http://www.inner-magazines.com/uploads/images/News/Audio/Reviews/components2/Hifi_tuning%20fuse.jpg

If you put one of these in your power grid cables, will you only be delivering like 115Volts DC to your transformers? :eyebrows:

Blimey - in that case, that one probably IS directional! :lol:

[Beobloke]

Have you been looking at 'those sites' on your Favourites list again? ;)

Marco.

:o :whistle: :whistle:

[Barry]

Hi Barry,

First of all the original post is a well-written and useful article and if I, amongst others, have 'crapped' on it then I apologise.
No worries, but it was a little like that, with comments of yours, such as this:

Hello Mark,
Believe you me, you are not alone here! Every time this sort of thing crops up it raises my hackels, for reasons you have said.

...where you appeared to be supporting Mark (Dingdong's) view of both Mark (Reid Malenfant) and me being rather rudely and inappropriately referred to as "fuckwits".


I was suggesting that if the fuse in a mains lead, supplied by a manufacturer for use with one of his designs, was changed for one of a higher rating, in the event of an accident the insurers would not treat any claim particularly favourably. I believe we have some members who work for insurance companies. Perhaps they could comment?

I have no problem at all with that comment. That's a different argument entirely.

If Naim et al. supply mains leads fitted with 13A fuses then the insurance company would be quite happy. Only if the supplied fuse is changed for one of a different value.

Well, in my circumstances then, I'm fine, since all the equipment I use was originally supplied with mains leads, fitted with 13A fuses in the plugs, simply because the manufacturers concerned recognised the sonic consequences of supplying ones fitted with smaller fuses, and also understood the electrical and safety implications of using 13A fuses, in the plugs on mains leads supplied with their equipment, as correctly outlined by Mark (RM)!

At no time did I state changing the fuse could not have an audible effect, though I'm highly sceptical. But just because I can't hear any change doesn't mean others can't.

Yes, but when you wrote earlier:

Without wishing to be rude, those who claim the presence of a fuse rated at less than 13A (or any fuse for that matter) presents a "bottle neck", simply don't understand electrical theory. Arguments that fitting a larger rated fuse reduces the mains source impedance are largely irrelevant...
...you were implying that others and I, who support the view that smaller fuses than 13A ones in plugs, fitted to mains leads supplying audio equipment, creates a 'bottleneck', don't understand electrical theory.

Well, bugger 'electrical theory'; I know what I can hear in practice!! And what I can hear is a significant degradation in sound quality from my equipment, if I fit less than 13A fuses inside the plugs on the mains leads.

As for: "Arguments that fitting a larger rated fuse reduces the mains source impedance are largely irrelevant" - well, they're not in any way "irrelevant" to me, as I can clearly hear the difference that lowering the impedance in this way makes, when fitting the highest rated fuse possible, which is safe to use in a specific application.

The fact is that, in audio, fuses are a necessary evil. Unquestionably, they ALL act as 'bottlenecks', as indeed does anything else that creates resistance, and thus impedes the ability of equipment to perform optimally, sonically, and in turn, reproduce recorded music as faithfully as possible.


Hi Marco,

Thanks for your reply. I’ve been a bit busy of late so have only go around to responding. Things have moved on since you reply but I’ll comment on fuse directionality later.

First of all I think you know me well enough to know I would never refer to any member as a “fuckwit”. I might privately think that, especially of the member who sometime ago suggested replacing all plug top fuses with short 1” lengths of ¼” diameter copper rod!

No, my siding with Mark (Dingdong) was solely due to my concern over the safety aspects of such fuse changes, and how it affects your insurance.

As Mark (Reid Malenfant) and others have rightly pointed out, the plug top fuse is there to protect the cable. But it is there also to protect the IEC connector at the other end. It is normally assumed the IEC connectors are all rated at 10A. I have had a look at all the IEC connectors in my possession (both line plugs and sockets) and of the eighteen I examined; half were marked as being rated at 6A. Connectors of either current rating appear to be ostensibly identical, well at least externally. Again to keep the insurers happy, I would only fit a 5A fuse to protect a 6A connector. Interestingly the moulded kettle leads tended to be 10A rated, whereas those that were wireable were of the lower rating.

And talking of fuses and keeping the insurers happy: all plug top cartridge fuses must be of the sand-filled ceramic tube type. Glass-bodied fuses are a no-no. They ought to be marked as conforming to BS1362 and if possible bear the British Standards ‘kite mark’. Fuses obtained from RS Components, as well as from UK plug manufacturers: MK, Crabtree, Nettle, Volex etc. are marked such.

I think we will have to agree to differ over the technical reasons as to why you can hear improvements made in fitting a higher rated fuse.




As to being able to hear the directional effect of a fuse – well this is a contentious issue. On the face of it, a fuse, being a short length of wire cannot be directional. Don’t be distracted by the ‘diode in parallel with a capacitor’ symbol on the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses - that is just part of the logo.

I cannot explain why you can hear a difference, however I do have access to a Measurement Report carried out for Hi-Fi Tuning fuses by GECOM Technologies GmbH. This report tabulates measurements carried out on a series of fuses made by, not only Hi-Fi Tuning but by Iso Clean and others as well as standard ‘non-audiophile’ samples. Fuses of rating between 1.6A to 20A were studied, including 13A fuses (to BS1362). The differences between the resistances measured in one direction compared with that in the other were minute (~ 2μΩ, or ~ 0.05% of the measured resistance). Worse still, no statistical information was provided (sample size, how many times the measurements were made etc.), nor was there any indication of the accuracy of the measurements. So the jury is still out on this.

I should add that I have not tried changing the direction of the fuses in my plugs; I simply don’t really have the incentive, so I can’t be too dogmatic, but I cannot see how any ‘diode’ effect (no matter how slight) could result from the construction. Perhaps others might like to posit such?

[Reid Malenfant]

I should add that I have not tried changing the direction of the fuses in my plugs; I simply don’t really have the incentive, so I can’t be too dogmatic, but I cannot see how any ‘diode’ effect (no matter how slight) could result from the construction. Perhaps others might like to posit such?
It really shouldn't make any difference what so ever as the voltage & current are reversing 50 times a second so any effects should entirely cancel.


While you are quite correct about the IEC plugs I'd like to suggest that the rating refers to the contacts which mate with the chassis socket on the equipment.

As the chance of the short internal equipment cable between the socket & the internal fuse being damaged is virtually zero (no vermin or human contact possible there unless the equipment is opened up & left open), then the cable rating still stands imho :)

[Marco]

Hi Barry,

No worries at all, mate, and thanks for the info :)

You and I are different, in that I simply don't need any 'evidence', other than what my ears tell me, to confirm what I *know* that I can genuinely hear with hi-fi. I'm completely relaxed about trusing my own senses. Most of the time, they don't let me down - but if they do, no big deal. I simply treat it as a learning curve!

However, I realise that (largely due to your scientific background) you think differently, and I respect that, as I'm sure you do my, equally valid, subjective approach.

It would be a boring world if we were all the same, eh? Onwards and upwards then, enjoying the music! :cool:

Marco.

[Barry]

It really shouldn't make any difference what so ever as the voltage & current are reversing 50 times a second so any effects should entirely cancel.


While you are quite correct about the IEC plugs I'd like to suggest that the rating refers to the contacts which mate with the chassis socket on the equipment.

As the chance of the short internal equipment cable between the socket & the internal fuse being damaged is virtually zero (no vermin or human contact possible there unless the equipment is opened up & left open), then the cable rating still stands imho :)

Agreed - but there must be some reason why some can hear a difference.


I'm still going to fuse all the mains plugs of my audio gear with 5A fuses. Sorry - I'll put up with the reduction in sound quality.

[Reid Malenfant]

Don't apologise Barry, 5Amp is a hell of a rating for something like a source :)

[Marco]

I should add that all my IEC sockets are Furutech (FI-09R), which are rated at 15A, and have solid-copper conductors, which are then Rhodium plated. See here, for details:

http://www.vhaudio.com/fi-09specsheet.pdf

:)

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

I should add that all my IEC sockets are Furutech (FI-09R), which are rated at 15A and have solid-copper conductors, and then are Rhodium plated. See here, for details:
While the plugs may well be rated to 15A Marco, I'm sure some of the sockets they are plugged into probably won't be ;)

As I said earlier though, this shouldn't matter as the internal wiring between socket & fuseholder is only likely to be damaged by a stray meteorite or car coming through the wall, so of inordinately low probabilty :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Lol - indeed... TBH, I couldn't give a buggery! The Furutechs were chosen for their solid-copper conductors, and thus, improved 'sonics', not for their amperage rating, or anything else, for that matter ;)

Marco.

[Barry]

Hi Barry,

No worries at all, mate, and thanks for the info :)

You and I are different, in that I simply don't need any 'evidence', other than what my ears tell me, to confirm what I *know* that I can genuinely hear with hi-fi. I'm completely relaxed about trusing my own senses. Most of the time, they don't let me down - but if they do, no big deal. I simply treat it as a learning curve!

However, I realise that (largely due to your scientific background) you think differently, and I respect that, as I'm sure you do my approach to things.

It would be a boring world, if we were all the same, eh? Onwards and upwards then, enjoying the music! :cool:

Marco.

Haha - I think you've got the measure of me. Yes coming from a scientific background I am interested in these things. But don't think that if I can't explain a change heard, I refuse to accept there is a change - that would be absurd! :doh:

I once saw a water diviner looking for the buried water pipe of my neighbour. The rods crossed exactly where the pipe was. (I knew roughly where it was anyway, the properties are very similar). Now I can't explain how this effect worked, but worked it did. And having seen it work, I would be in a state of denial to say "it can't be explained, so it doesn't exist and I never saw it."

Likewise I have never seen a ghost, but were I to do so, whilst it might trouble me to admit there is no plausible explanation as to the sighting, I would have to admit I had seen such a phenomenon, even if I couldn't explain it.

No, don't worry, I never let my objectivist leanings get in the way of my listening pleasure. If I can hear a difference (that is definite, consistant and repeatable) I will go with it and not worry too much as to the 'why'?

[Marco]

Hi Mark,


While the plugs may well be rated to 15A Marco, I'm sure some of the sockets they are plugged into probably won't be ;)


Just reading through this again, and I've noticed what you've written... If you look at the PDF file (above: post #152), of the Furutech IEC sockets, which I use, shown here:


http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/4606/furutechfi09iec.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/813/furutechfi09iec.jpg/)


...you'll see that they are indeed rated at 15A.

And so are the plugs:

http://www.furutech.com/news/FI-50(R)-(News)%20.pdf


http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2003/furutechfi5020b2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/furutechfi5020b2.jpg/)


Therefore, BOTH my plugs and sockets are rated at 15A, dude! ;)

Marco.

[AlfaGTV]

Personally, i believe that wiring up your cables using Öhlflex or similar good quality cable can make quite a remarkable difference in the audio quality of that particular component. Sadly, i cannot define the reasons, but my theory is the fact that the cable is also a part of the circuitry, as much as any capacitor or tranny inside. And depending on the construct and quality of the power supply part of your piece of equipment, it will have different amount of impact on the sound.
A cable is also a passive electric component as it has some electrical properties, namely impedance, resistance, capacistance and also emi and rfi properties, both as a source and a receptor. So, in my meaning there is no doubt that it has impact on the sound quality, even if i cannot spec the hows and whys...

I personally also use Öhlflex and Furutech Rohdium plugs and sockets! And i do get better audio in my ears than the standard black spaghetti provide.

And to Reid, i fully agree with you on your point of view that the electrons travel through the conductor in varying direction,but you are missing the point that the energy is travelling in one direction only (basically) and therefore both powergrid and signal cables (and fuses?) may be directional. The energy travels always from the source of power to the load...

Finally, if you take pleasure in finishing your mains cables yourself i think this is an excellent guide!
I personally like simplicity and would never recommend someone to change the fuse in their cable. I would, however, search for a plug that does NOT have a fuse as i am convinced it does not add to SQ!

UK must be one of very few countries that use plugs with built in fuses? For protecting the cable? :stalks: Dont you british have fuses in your electric central distribution box in your homes? :ner:

BR Mike

[AlexM]

We brits typically use a 'ring main' type installation where sockets are chained together like This diagram (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.homewiringguide.com/userimages/ringmain75%281%29.jpg&imgrefurl=http://homewiringguide.com/page5.htm&h=479&w=517&sz=38&tbnid=1WinYjU68yq1GM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=93&zoom=1&docid=GEugs7QlTu9DMM&sa=X&ei=anp0T4b2LufH0QXm6_D1Dw&ved=0CFkQ9QEwBQ&dur=496). The wiring in the wall is usually 32a, and each circuit is fused or protected by an MCB in the consumer unit.

This is why an individual lead in a socket could potentially exceed it's current rating (by more than 100%) without tripping the MCB for the circuit. The fuse in the plug is therefore to protect the lead and ensure that a fault current can't exceed the value of the fuse in the plug.

Regards,
Alex

[Reid Malenfant]

Therefore, BOTH my plugs and sockets are rated at 15A, dude! ;)

Marco.
Point taken :D

[BlueMax]

the cable in the original post show an armoured cable with loose steel braiding. It is designed to physically protect the inner cables.
Dense braiding needed for screening can be obtained by using something like this:
http://img-europe.electrocomponents.com/largeimages/C379671-01.jpg
Description: Mains Cable, flexible, 3 core, Double Screened using very fine copper mesh, PVC sheath, grey.
Technical Specification: Construction, CSA 2×2•5 mm2 (10/.25) plus 1×4•0 mm2 (56/0•30)
Overall dia. 12.2 mm
Dia over shield: 9.4 mm
Current rating: 20 Amp max
Application: The double plain copper braid screens give good screening properties whilst retaining cable flexibility.
This cable is suitable for use with computers, other digital systems and analogue systems vulnerable to electromagnetic and RF interference.
Manufacturer: RAYDEX
Part No. RD8507

Ferrites fitted at both ends can also help. As in this pic
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/4474/teflonttssocketandplug.jpg

[northwest]

http://www.fscables.com/Signal++Control/Flexible+Cables/CY+PVC+Bedded+Screened+Multicore+Cable/list.htm


The cable you refer to is NLA

This is the replacement:

http://www.fscables.com/Signal++Control/Flexible+Cables/LiYCY+PVC+Screened+Multicore/list.htm

[BlueMax]

RAYDEX, Part No. RD8507 with double copper mesh screening shown in my post was purchased some five years ago. From RS, I think!
Can't find the same item any longer. But if anyone can find something with similar spec, it could be basis for a top notch mains cable.

[AlfaGTV]

Screened cables does not necessarily have to be a blessing. I have had good results with wattled mains cables(?)
A Swedish site with pics (http://www.svalander.se/tips_fakta/hifi-tips/kablar/flatarskola/)
This is an old technique to minimise interference between cables. And it does seem to work!
And also thanks for the explanation regarding the british type of mains net, we dont have that in Sweden. Here there are several "groups", centrally fused, which each provide power to a section of our homes. No fuses in the cables...

Br Mike

[BlueMax]

Twisting (as with UTP) and platting (as with the pic in the Swedish site and with Kimber Cables) are two other techniques used.
However, in addition, many cables also use screening for maximise protection.

RAYDEX RD8507 use twisting and double plain copper braid screens.
Such combination of techniques can also be found in some UTP cables used for networking.

Adding ferrites at both ends also help to clean up.

For more information and DIY projects that use multiple techniques can be found at TNT audio site and others.

[mad-moon]

why 13 amps?...unless the unit is over 1200 watts power consumption on a 240 supply a 5 amp fuse should suffice...QUOTE=Marco;310760]Indeed - all that bother (nice job, btw) of wiring the plug neatly, and then the daftee leaves a weedy 5A fuse in there! :doh: :eyebrows:

;)

Yup, if you don't want to strangle the buggery out of the kit that the lead is connected to - fit a 13A fuse in there, pronto!! Oh, and polish the end caps, to a nice bright shine too, while you're at it...

Marco.[/QUOTE]

[Marco]

Hi Alan,

Sorry, I've just noticed your post. It might well suffice electrically, but not sonically. All I can comment on is sonically speaking, and 5A fuses make equipment sound much worse, to my ears, than 13A ones do, perhaps due to the larger fuse acting as less of a 'bottleneck', by lowering impedance further.

That's certainly the results of my experience in that area, anyway! :)

Marco.

[nat8808]

Hehe, I think a nice thick rod of pure silver in place of the fuse sounds best!

That was a joke folks - don't actually do that !!!

[Rare Bird]

Hi Alan,

Sorry, I've just noticed your post. It might well suffice electrically, but not sonically. All I can comment on is sonically speaking, and 5A fuses make equipment sound much worse, to my ears, than 13A ones do, perhaps due to the larger fuse acting as less of a 'bottleneck', by lowering impedance further.

That's certainly the results of my experience in that area, anyway! :)

Marco.

Well when i used to care about such things i used to fit a certain manufacturers circuit breakers.. the higher the current rating The lower the breakers internal resistance :)

[Marco]

Exactly! :)

RA did get some things right... ;)

Marco.