Bake me off.

[sq225917]

It's going to be a busy weekend.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7181/6864722028_fdea247e87_b.jpg

XTC Pre-1
Krell KSP B7
Puresound L10

[Marco]

Excellent stuff, Simon - and an interesting range of amps! I suspect that I'd like the Puresound most (the XTC/Orelle should also be rather nice), but it'll be interesting to see what happens :)

Marco.

[wiicrackpot]

Marco,

You didnae mention that svelte model at the end,why??????:scratch:

wii.

[Barry]

Marco,

You didnae mention that svelte model at the end,why??????:scratch:

wii.

Are you referring to the Krell or the Tektronix 'scope? ;)

[Marco]

Marco,

You didnae mention that svelte model at the end,why??????:scratch:

wii.

I'm not a fan of the (small amount) of Krell amps that I've heard. Most remind me of exactly why I prefer valves to (most) solid-state kit! ;)

Marco.

[YNWaN]

I've just listened to all three :-)

[Marco]

Tease! And? :)

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Still listening - changing power amps now!

[YNWaN]

Well I've formed my opinions (and I think Simon and I are largely in agreement over what we heard); however, I think it best I let sq write his views first - after all, it is his thread (and his pre-amp collection).

[chelsea]

1) puresound
2) xtc
3) krell.

Just a guess.

[YNWaN]

nope......;)

[wiicrackpot]

Barry~ you've lost me with Tektronik Scope.:scratch:

Marco~ I see, hence the omission.:)

Mark~ and the result is........drum rolls.;)

Stu~ i would've had it the other round just because it's a Krell.:D

wii.

[Marco]

1) puresound
2) xtc
3) krell.

Just a guess.

Stu, for a small insight, you need to read this thread:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16814

;)

Marco.

[Barry]

Barry~ you've lost me with Tektronik Scope.:scratch:
Marco~ I see, hence the omission.:)

Mark~ and the result is........drum rolls.;)

Stu~ i would've had it the other round just because it's a Krell.:D

wii.

It's the blue coloured item of test equipment to the immediate right of the right hand record cube.

Don't worry, it was just me being a little facetious! :rolleyes:

[chelsea]

Stu, for a small insight, you need to read this thread:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16814

;)

Marco.

:doh:

[sq225917]

Now, how many people do you know who actually keep an oscilloscope in their music room? Part timers these bloody objectivists... ;-)

So that was an interesting little mix of an afternoon. There's a lot to like about all of these pre-amps. but first here's where my head is at. I already own the Krell and the XTC, the L10 is a gracious loaner from Guy. I'd like to retain remote control of volume on my pre-amp so this fits with the L10 and the XTC, the Krell has no remote facility.

I'm very happy with my current phonostage, a high modded Prefix that saw off the Naim Superline that I owned for 14 months. Maybe it should be called the Superfix! Though I definitely not adverse to reducing the box count if I can find an inbuilt stage that does what the Superfix does as well as it does it. It is very quiet, very, very, quiet. Sadly the phonostage in the Krell doesn't fit the bill currently. It has way too much noise, I can se mains frequency and other bands of noise on the output. I'll need to spend more tiem scioping them out and see if I can chase it down to specific components. I already have all new caps coming and new carbon comps- which are usually suspect in terms of noise when aged. I'll comment more on the Krell phono once all the old caps have been replaced, but today, it's not in the same league as the Superfix.

The line stage on the Krell however is good. It's very grown up sounding. It's even across the frequency range, with no dips of humps that stand out. The bass sounds notably fulsome, not loose, not overblown, just full. it's tight and sounds right in the room with good texture and nuance. I don't think the mids are as projected as they could be, certainly compared to the other options in the room it's not the Krell's stand out area. However the stereo image is very good speaker to speaker, if not providing the last word in depth. When everything begins to pick up and get really busy the Krell holds it together superbly, a very mature performance all round. Shame about the lack of remote and dodgy phono.

The XTC is next up, the bass isn't quite as richly textured as the Krell, but it is deep and forms a solid foundation that rhythms are driven over. I think the XTC has a little edge in the upper mids, maybe a touch of 2nd harmonic distortion, but it adds bite in the right places and can add to the party with the right music. Stereo imagery is very precise, I think panned effects travel better than with the Krell, I'm not sure about the depth, mayeb the same as the Krell. When things get really busy though it isn't quite as polished a performer as the Krell, but the difference is slight. It does have that remote though...

Then comes the Puresound. The L10 weighs a friggin tonne, there's a lot of iron in here with all those chokes and output trannies. The remote action is nice, the fascia is slick and overall it exudes a feel of well built quality. As value proposition you can see where the money has gone here- inside the box. Sound wise the L10 pushes the midrange to the fore slightly. Vocal projection is very good, real singer between the speakers stuff. From Tom Waits to Rickie Lee Jones the effect is the same, supple clarity with great texture and nuance. It has another trick up its sleeve as well, quite the deepest front to back soundstage that I've heard in my music room, which given my speaker placement close to the back wall is quite a trick to pull off. I'm sat listening to some close mic'd acoustic guitar currently and it's very good there's a palpable feeling of seeing the venue unfold in front of you. That said, it doesn't have the bass control or texture that either the Krell or the XTC have. I could live with this if I had standmounts, hell i could live with this if the -3db on my speakers was 40hz, but it isn't and I do love my bass.

So what i'd really like is the bass and organisation of the Krell, I'd like the spit on the upper mid of the XTC and I'd die for the midrange and stereo imagery of the Puresound L10.

I thought it was all over when Mark left earlier on, but plugging the L10 back in again is making me wonder if i might not be downsizing my speakers sometime soon. Tough call, it's between the Krell and the Puresound, that lack of remote might yet be the Krell's downfall despite the rest of its presentation and remarkable coherence.


I'll put together some rips later tonight comparing the output of my Weiss with the output from each of these stages. I'll leave you guessing which is which though apart from the Weiss. ;-)

[jostber]

What's the price diff between the Krell and the PureSound?

[YNWaN]

Well the Krell is a 14 year old second hand component so it's price reflects that.

[sq225917]

I'm unsure how much the L10 is.

[YNWaN]

£2600 I think

http://www.blackforestaudio.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=290

[wiicrackpot]

Barry~ i thought that was a shopping trolley.........only joooking,:lol: didn't know that was a scope though.

Simon~ nice write up, going by Marco's link, that Krell is a modders dream,a bit surprised at the price of the Puresound if i may say.

wii.

[YNWaN]

OK, here is what I thought (we used both vinyl and Apple/DAC to listen to all three pre-amps):

First up was the PureSound L10. Before we had a listen I had a little inspect - the L10 is a really nice thing, very neatly made, good components, nice solid remote, the controls all feel really good quality - its blooming heavy too with all those transformers in it!

As soon as Simon put the L10 on I was taken with the midrange - really very good indeed. Voices really stand out and every inflection is fluidly delivered - genuinely, the word 'lyrical' came to mind. Stereo focus and depth are also very good - Simon and I discussed if actual instrumental separation was quite as good and perhaps this is not as strong as other aspects... I should say that I didn't just think the midrange was good, it was the best I've heard from Simon's system, it really drew me in. Bass was strong, perhaps a touch too strong -good texture, but not the last word in tonal differentiation. It wasn't soft or flabby though and drove the music along well (it didn't sound like a tacked on afterthought as can sometimes be the case).

Next up was the XTC. This immediately sounded much flatter to me - not in terms of depth of soundstage (although this wasn't quite as good), but flat in terms of communication, dynamically flat, as if fine detail was missing. Whilst the midrange of the L10 immediately struck me with its quality, here I was struck by the XTC's adequacy - it wasn't bad as such, it just wasn't that good either (to be honest, I instantly found it a bit tedious)! The top end is more brightly lit than the PureSound and this means that the contribution of percussion is more evident; I have to say I also thought that the musical contribution of cymbals was more evident and made a bit more sense on the XTC. The biggest positive for the XTC was in the bass though. This was obviously quite a bit drier and tighter in character than the L10 and sounded, to me, more as one with the midrange; it wasn't quite as effusive as the L10, or as textured, but I think it was under greater control.

Last, but not least, was the Krell. I should say that I had heard the Krell yesterday and hadn't been exactly bowled over. Today the speakers had been moved back to the position I was used to and the Krell's (apparently good) phonostage had been bypassed, instead Simon used his heavily modified 'SuperFix'. Well, today, as soon as the Krell went on it sounded like a sophisticated design. The midrange communication and projection, whilst not quite as good as the excellent PureSound, was still very good and significantly better than the XTC. The whole sound was really focused and full of fine detail. This last might suggest the Krell was bright, but actually it's top end was a touch soft (my experience is that changing capacitors can make a big difference here). The bass was also less dry sounding than the XTC, but it was better controlled in terms of pitch differentiation - the best of the three in this regard and dynamic swings were well presented and accurately tracked (as I thought).

So, it was only a brief listen, but I thought the PureSound L10 had noticeably the best mid communication. I couldn't personally live with the XTC; despite its strengths (it is by far the cheapest too), it just didn't have sufficient quality to maintain my interest. Overall, today, I thought the Krell was the best balanced in Simon's system. However, I've always used transistor gear myself so perhaps it just plays to my expectations....

We also, briefly, compared power-amps.....but that's another story ;).

[pure sound]

I'm just staggered that the L10 is up there already. :scratch: I didn't pay for saturday delivery and they don't usually do that unless requested. Props to Citylink!

[YNWaN]

...a bit surprised at the price of the Puresound if i may say.

wii.

Surprised in what way? The price didn't seem unreasonable to me for the build, and sound, quality.

Guy, I loved that vocal communication of the L10; I wonder how its bigger brother performs.

[pure sound]

The L300 is another thing altogether, but it has relatively high gain (17dB) and no remote (yet). Simon was more interested in trying a very low gain valve stage which the L10 is.

It'd be interesting to try the L10's audio circuit with the L300's power supply. I haven't tried that yet

[YNWaN]

I really like the remote of the L10, solid without being a brick - the gain of the L10 worked really well in Simon's system - not too much or too little and had plenty of subjective 'drive'.

[sq225917]

Yeh it was here before noon.

Guy how long does the L10 need to warm up? The swaps were pretty rapid fire, a few tracks and then onto the next amp and so on. I wonder if it might not have given of its best. I'll plug it in tonight and leave it on overnight before doing the rips tomorrow morning.

[wiicrackpot]

Surprised in what way? The price didn't seem unreasonable to me for the build, and sound, quality.
Going by what you've heard and having 1st hand of looking at the build quality, the pricing sounds fair for a quality product,
just been out of the upgrade loop too long to notice things have moved upwards like everything else.:rolleyes:

Good follow up review.

wii.

[jandl100]

I've had a Krell KRC-3 pre-amp for a few months now.
This boxswapper is distressed at how good it is - I reckon it's easily the best pre I have heard. I just don't want to change it.

Yes, it's a bit dark and a tad smooth at the top end. But it's hugely musical (i.e. it sounds like real music) as well as detailed, dynamic, 3D etc etc. There's no listener fatigue, but it is very far from boring. Improve the signal and it just passes the improvement on thru, you can't ask for much more than that.
And it's got full remote control.

I've not heard the Puresound.
I owned an XTC-1 pre, but that was many years ago. It was OK, but not a lot more than that. A bit bland and boring, really.

Just IMO. :)

[sq225917]

Yeh, there's a couple of models of the XTC with the same name, this is the twin transformer version with the better parts and all the caps and rectifiers have additionally been upgraded, it's far from stock.

The Krell could haver a little bit more bite at the top, but it's more than made up for by the way it swings from PP to FF.

[jandl100]

Ah, OK. I'm sure my XTC-1 was the standard model with no extras. It cost me £500 from Oxford Audio, iirc. It was not too bad for that sort of money. I think it retailed at £1250? But if Martin Colloms has been raving about the model I owned, I haven't a clue what he is on about!

Oh, and my Krell KRC-3 is linestage only - no phono.

[YNWaN]

I see that it is the XTC PRE II that Martin Colloms gave a high score to, not the I.

(but I don't know what the difference is between the two)
---------------
Yeah, Krell have made a lot of different pre-amps over the years; some had phonostages, some did not (some have the option of fitting a phonostage).

[pure sound]

Guy how long does the L10 need to warm up?

Normally I reckon on 30-40 minutes with most valve amplifiers. Overnight should be plenty!

[sq225917]

Not in this particular order but here are the pre-amps under test: Krell-XTC-Weiss (dac output)-Puresound

and here's the files. http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/pre-amps.zip

It's still uploading, give it ten minutes before you try to grab the files.

[sq225917]

All ready for your perusal.

There's a prize for the 1st person to get them all in the correct order, no multiple entries.

[chelsea]

Pure sound
krell
xtc

[YNWaN]

Erm, there are four files I think Stu - one is the output of the Weiss DAC directly into the recorder with no pre-amp.

Had another little listen this afternoon and the PureSound L10 does seem to have benefited from a warm-up :).

[sq225917]

There are four tracks Dave, at least download the file before trying to win the prize eh!

[Macca]

I'm afaraid I really cannot hear a difference played through my little plastic computer speakers. Hardly surprising I know but I did at least have a go. They all sound good - I swear I can hear a vehicle outside the studio as the track starts - or is that a deliberate sound effect?

[YNWaN]

I've downloaded the files - can I win? What's the prize?

[pure sound]

I can't do this until I get home tomorrow. It'll be interesting for me to see what differences there are if burnt to a CD and then played via my DAC, probably an L10 (!) and then my amp & speakers in my room. There must be the likelihood that a presentation that suits SQ's power amps/speakers/room combination may not then suit other peoples. I've had that experience previously with some of the needledrops made at Andrew Popely's TT gathering where how they sounded on the day bore little resemblance to how the recordings then sounded played back via another, very different system.

I'm just genuinely intrigued to see what if any differences prove to be audible by this means. I'm sure each line stage is readily discernible at first hand.

[sq225917]

Mark found it more difficult to tell each amp apart just listening to the rips. I did choose a track that specifically doesn't highlight the bass, which is where the largest differences are between them. He guessed them correctly, but was far less sure than before- ABX anxiety!

;-)

[sq225917]

Martin.
Well spotted. watch the video, all we become clear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkHTsc9PU2A

[keiths]

Wild and pretty pointless guess:

track2.wav = XTC
track3.wav = Weiss
track4.wav = Pure sound
track5.wav = Krell

E2A: I don't know who's singing, but if I have to listen to him pronounce "hesitate" as "HEZ-A-TATE" once more, I'll kick something.

[Macca]

Martin.
Well spotted. watch the video, all we become clear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkHTsc9PU2A

And it does :)

[sq225917]

Inside the Krell..
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7103/7010671843_ab4e46bf71_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7186/7010745529_87bf487aeb_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7121/7010750061_2cd01d8b2e_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7080/6864634056_8413203185_b.jpg

You didn't win Keith, but not entirely without merit.

[keiths]

You didn't win Keith, but not entirely without merit.

LOL. I bet I got the Weiss one right...

[YNWaN]

It's almost like it is crying out to have a bunch of components replaced ;).

[bogle111]

Sell me your Krell and then it won't be so hard to choose. Simple.

Regards
Pete

[sq225917]

It is, it's dying to have all those 20 year old Rhode caps replaced, and it's crying out to have the front end of the phonostage looked at as well. I'm pretty sure it would benefit from having the first 4 trannies on each side, replaced with identical matched components. It currently looks like it has been repaired at two different times with two different sets of compatible parts, so there are 6 different devices in there where 2 should likely be.

I'll find out what the best match and grade to the original parts are and replace with those so everything is matched evenly L/R which it currently isn't. It's probably the reason for the higher than expected noise on the phonostage.

[Reid Malenfant]

You could try paralleling the input transistors to the phono stage as well, this reduces noise. If you are going to replace the transistors your best bet is certain small signal Japanese trannies. Depends on the polarity & Krell usually used balanced circuits so you'd need both NPN & PNP which is a tad more problematic as due to the manufacturing process they never match current gain or bandwidth wise.

[sq225917]

I'm not planning to 'modify' it, just restore it compassionately.

[Marco]

Compassionately? Lol... Surely sympathetically is the more appropriate term? ;)

Incidentally, I wrote earlier that I didn't like many Krell amps. I should revise that and say: many modern Krell amps. The vintage kit is a different ball game!

Marco.

[sq225917]

I'm not planning on listening to its likes and dislikes an talking about girlfriends past I'm going to be sticking a 325 degree hot poker up it's arse. ;-)

[Reid Malenfant]

Fahrenheit or Celsius? :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Simon, so why were the denizens of pfm exposed to listening to your test recordings, and not us? ;)

Marco.

[pure sound]

post #34

[Marco]

Ah, missed that! :doh:

I still think that I'd prefer your preamp, over the others, if I were listening to them all properly... ;)

The L300 I heard at one of the shows (was it that time with the Aspara HL1s?) was STUNNING, so if its little brother shares the same traits, then it shouldn't be too shabby!!

Marco.

[sq225917]

Marco, I prefer mine too, with the Puresound coming in 2nd then the Krell and XTC following in later. The Puresound is very lyrical sounding with great mids and stereo depth.

I'll do some more samples, this time exposing the bass, which makes identification much easier.

[Marco]

Ok, I look forward to that :)

Marco.