Music from my PC.... how???

[JazzBones]

Howz about helping an old fella, me for instance? I would like to retire my Maratz CD65II (Special Edition), used purely as a cd transport and start using my Dell Inspiron desk top PC (windows 7 improved) to channel the digits to my CA Dac Magic to my integrated amp and speakers. This lot is in a titchy (bloody small) cubby hole of a home office. I am aware of the Logitech SB but apart from that I'm all virginial about computer audio, and at my age too:eek:.... as I said, help please. I would more than likely store my digital music library (to be) on an outboard hard drive of sufficient quality and storage thus keeping my music files separate from everything else on my PC, is this wise, and would backup files be a good move?

What I'm getting around to saying is that I've had it with hunkering upstairs handful of cds from the downstairs main audio system.

At the recent Scalford show, I think it was Flatpopely who used a SB touch, Naim Nait intergrated, and Linn Kan speakers in a small room and I was quite taken with this set up. Also, Alex in the CAC room was putting out some really good music via an el cheapo laptop etc., first time I'd heard 'Take Five' (Dave Brubeck) from a computer... nice sounds Alex and you and FlatP are responsible for me wanting to to do the above, dammit :):whistle:

A step by step talk through would be very helpful... thankee folks.

Ron

PS. Please talk to me in English and not in Patrick Cleasby gooky speak, thanks muchly :)



I'm now off to stick pins in an effigy of Osborne the Chancellor, hope his balls glow bright red :steam:

Ron

[dave2010]

I think you are on the right lines. Pity you just missed the chance to pick up cheap Squeezebox Touches though, but they may come round again in a while.
There were offers on "new" ones, and also on the blemished box ones, which are apparently also new - or treated as new (could be refurbs or returns I suspect in some cases) but come in boxes which might be slightly damaged.

As you are using a PC you will probably decide to encode your CDs to Flac. I'm not sure what kind of software you'll use to do that, and also to manage your ripped CDs. MediaMonkey is one tool which appears to be rated quite highly, so maybe you should check that out - http://www.mediamonkey.com/

[Yomanze]

If your PC is physically close to your DAC then there's zero reason to need a Squeezebox.

It doesn't matter where your music files are stored, but an external hard drive is great for backups and/or starting out with larger storage potential. Either way, backup your files!!!

As you have a DACMagic you have a good enough USB input (just need a cable to plug it into your PC), so it's software from here on that largely influences the sound. You must avoid Windows Media Player & iTunes isn't up to scratch compared to, for Windows 7, using WASAPI (bit of software that it used with Windows Vista and Windows 7) to provide a 'direct hardware' connection to a player such as Foobar2000. This will ensure bit perfect output without resampling and other weirdness going on. You might be surprised that computers can be really mess with the bits it sends to a DAC!

For a second or office system FLAC is great, and provides a definite improvement over the highest encoded mp3s with the sound difference sounding like 'more air and ambience with FLAC vs. mp3'. For a main system WAV is the way to go. "But FLAC is lossless!" I hear you say, but please read: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/WAV-FLAC.htm & compare files on your high end system to listen for yourself.

[Welder]

You’ll probably get loads of well meaning but pretty meaningless advice telling you need to buy this or that Ron and you’ll be sorted.
It doesn’t work like that unfortunately.

If I’ve understood right you know feck all about file based audio. The bad news is it can be a rather complex and lengthy process, especially if you’re “not all that" with computers and you want decent quality audio.

The first step is to learn how to rip a CD to file. If you don’t get this bit right then yer fecked.
So, read this guide and learn how to rip.
Once you’ve got that sorted then either post again or PM me and I’ll help you get sorted.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8238

You can ignore the bit about 3 external drives for the moment and just concentrate on getting a few CDs ripped to the hard drive on your computer.

[JazzBones]

Hi Dave and Neil thanks for your help/advice and info, its a start for me :) My PC is just under 1mtr away from my CA DAC Magic. forgot to mention that I use an older Russ Andrews outboard sound card, from PC/USB to sound card thence by coax etc to DAC, which sweetens up the sound of radio broadcast but my Creek CAS3140 FM tuner is still better for sound from radio (FM).

Thanks again, and yes I did see the recent offer on the LogiTech SB but it was too late for me to get one, :(

Ron

[JazzBones]

You’ll probably get loads of well meaning but pretty meaningless advice telling you need to buy this or that Ron and you’ll be sorted.
It doesn’t work like that unfortunately.

If I’ve understood right you know feck all about file based audio. The bad news is it can be a rather complex and lengthy process, especially if you’re “not all that" with computers and you want decent quality audio.

The first step is to learn how to rip a CD to file. If you don’t get this bit right then yer fecked.
So, read this guide and learn how to rip.
Once you’ve got that sorted then either post again or PM me and I’ll help you get sorted.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8238

You can ignore the bit about 3 external drives for the moment and just concentrate on getting a few CDs ripped to the hard drive on your computer.

John, you got me in one re:ripping files, but we all made a start from not knowing how didn't we? Thanks for your help and advice mate and for the offer of helping me out at a later date, much appreciated.

Ron

[Welder]

Some more Ron. :)

One of the things some people don’t seem to be happy about with file audio is not having album art work, liner notes etc. The truth is you can if you wish get more information about an album, or band, than comes with the physical media from the internet.
You can if you’re keen, scan your CD covers and CD and use these as album art to display in the player of your choice assuming it supports album art.

I use this to find album art. It’s a lot easier than scanning stuff.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/album-art/

You often find that you can get Front and Back covers at the very least.
The way I do it is open the relevant music folder and drag it to one side of your screen.
Then run albumart downloader and when you find the image you want just click on it and drag and drop it to the folder holding the music.


When I rip a CD, I make a folder first just like any other folder for your operating system and name the folder with the artist and album. Convention and keeping to it will save you an awful lot of problems when your collection gets big and/or you try out different music players or want to move music around.
So, the folder might be titled something like, AC/DC - Highway To Hell.

Then when you rip, you direct the ripping program to dump the files in this folder. Most will do this. Don’t forget to send the Cue sheets there as well.
You can put all your album artwork in this folder and have everything contained in this folder.
As long as you have this folder type structure you can stick pretty much whatever you want in it. Your music player will just ignore what it cant display and you can always open the folder and look at the extra info while a track is playing.
Some music players will auto collect from the internet, but this means of course you have to be connected to the internet to get the art/info displayed. This isn’t always convenient and you get whatever your player wants which may not be what you want or even correct for that particular album.
This may not seem important but later on you will wish you had done something like this so do it at the start.

[dave2010]

Ron

For PCs many seem to think that Exact Audio Copy (EAC) is one of the best rippers. It can be downloaded from here http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

There are other tools, but if you can get this working, it may well give the best results.

[Stratmangler]

Ron

For PCs many seem to think that Exact Audio Copy (EAC) is one of the best free rippers. It can be downloaded from here http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

There are other tools, but if you can get this working, it may well give the best results.

I have amended the above statement.
I use dbPoweramp myself - the results are the same as with EAC, but dbPoweramp is more fully featured.

Whichever ripper you use, make sure that it is set up to do secure rips.

[JazzBones]

Thanks John and Dave for the info. If I take it systematically I'm sure I'll crack it and it will be great to have the convenience of selecting a music piece to be played without hunting through cd racks.

I take it that I don't really need a Logitech SB if I just use my PC as this a home office system only? I cannot afford or justify the cost of the Naim stuff. You guys must be getting good results to invest your time and money in so its time for me to get stuck in... 'one small step for mankind, etc :)'

One more question: do I keep my outboard soundcard (currently being fed into my CA DAC Magic) or just rely solely on the DAC only to do the job?

Ron

[bobbasrah]

Ron,
John, Neil and Dave pretty much summed it up.

Get a good secure copy of your CD onto a drive. FLAC is very popular (as Neil said) and allows for easier tagging (labelling Band/Album/Genre etc), but keep the albums in logical folders for easy access.

A tool for checking (and modifying the tags etc if necessary) is useful. I use Mp3Tag (Google it) but some players have tools to do the same thing built in, it just happens I use a different media player than most to suit my own requirements.

The hard part is ripping all your albums and putting them in folders, as it is time consuming, repetitive and boring, but we've all been there.... The beauty of this is that once you have the copies into the machine, the music is there (and backed up to a separate drive) no matter what you play it on or to, it's done once and for all. Simple.
Personally, I would recommend using a internal drive with external usb for backup, but it depends on what you can build into the desktop - Internal drives are always faster and cheaper than usb devices, and way less complicated.

I know John has different experience of it, but I found Win7/64 a superb platform for audio. As I am typing this, I have Arvo Part's Lamentate playing flawlessly from internal drive to the player program to the usb DAC, oblivious to and unaffected by what Windows does (via Asio in this case). Email notifications, web videos, and warnings pop through on the monitor entirely separately.

In broad terms the sound card is a redundant DAC, and could have been omitted as a unnecessary link in the chain once you had the CA DAC. I guess you were using the spdif out of that card to the DAC?
If you de-install the card you will need to revert to either the motherboard's spdif or usb outputs to the DAC. I have no idea which is better implemented on the DAC, but you will are familiar with the sound via spdif. How well your motherboard will output spdif is unknown however.
You could try a few tests on WASAPI via your player to Spdif or usb to the DAC to hear if it is any different. OR
If it ain't broke..... Leave that as a future experiment/refinement for now....?

[AlfaGTV]

These are all good advise, apart from one item which to me is a major drawback:
John's way of ripping may serve him well, but I dont want to be arsed with any further task than what is absolutely necessary! ;)

All sensible ripping programs will allow you to set a destination directory for your rips; like C:\Users\<UserName>\Music\
They will also allow you to set naming for your rips like this;
<Album Artist>\<Album> [<Year>]\<Number> - <Title>
These 'variables' are populated from the tags which normally are provided from cddb.org or freedb.org or whatever tag database your app uses.
What this means, in practice, is that you insert your CD 'to-be-ripped', start your application, tell it to rip and you will be provided with suggested tagging info.
If it seems reasonable, you accept and most likely even cover art will be provided for you...
In your music folder the ripping app will create a folder for <Album Artist> which may be translated into f.e. "Lisa Miskovsky". In this folder a folder corresponding to the album will be created and will be named f.e. "Changes [2006]"
Within this folder each song will be placed and named correctly. All done while you had your tea! :)

http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Folder.jpg
This image describes what the result looks like.

Some samples of ripping apps:
Exact Audio Copy, does well but needs some basic config, free.
Easy CD-DA Extractor, excellent tool for managing your music collection(Rips,Burns,Converts, Tags etc), about €30
Dbpoweramp, similar to the above, around the same money?

If your'e on the 'right' side, XLD is excellent for Mac OS X users.

And this is the most important step of your computer based audio journey! When the music is converted to files on your PC, they are easily accessed, manipulated,backed up and transported to the player of choice!

As for choice of file format, FLAC will serve you well, and sounds good, if not as good as WAV or AIFF. Besides, you can always convert your FLACs to 'what-have-you' WITHOUT QUALITY LOSS if you prefer. And the FLACs carry tagging info, as does the uncompressed AIFF.

Br Mike

[JazzBones]

Hi Bob and Mike and all, thanks for the info which is very helpful. As far as time is concerned I'm retired nowadays so no longer make the dreaded trek to'from work to earn my daily bread and beer :) so spending time ripping cds (and eventually vinyl LPs) will not be too much of a prob. I guess there is provision for correcting any mistakes I might make during the download process? I would also think that I could delete any selected track from an album which I didn't like thus saving ONLY the tracks I like and think worthwhile?

My external soundcard (RA's) was purely put into place to make music from radio etc sound better. It did achieve this for me. It will have to be a suck it and see trial to get this one sorted although I imagine that radio broadcasts via my DAC will also be taken care of... I dunno :scratch:?

Ron

[bobbasrah]

Hi Bob and Mike and all, thanks for the info which is very helpful. As far as time is concerned I'm retired nowadays so no longer make the dreaded trek to'from work to earn my daily bread and beer :) so spending time ripping cds (and eventually vinyl LPs) will not be too much of a prob. I guess there is provision for correcting any mistakes I might make during the download process? I would also think that I could delete any selected track from an album which I didn't like thus saving ONLY the tracks I like and think worthwhile?

My external soundcard (RA's) was purely put into place to make music from radio etc sound better. It did achieve this for me. It will have to be a suck it and see trial to get this one sorted although I imagine that radio broadcasts via my DAC will also be taken care of... I dunno :scratch:?

Ron

Ron, depending on how extensive your library is, it will keep you busy, a boring job, but you do it once and that's it. If you somehow screw up a rip, do it again, it takes minutes to complete.
Once you have the files stored, you can alter tags, add art etc., no problems.

Not quite sure where the radio fits into the equation, unless you mean Internet Radio?

The target for audiophiles is the absolute best sound quality that can be achieved, which makes the Windows audio mixer effectively the Antichrist....:eek:

WASAPI, as ASIO before it, are software mechanisms which direct your audio outside the influence of the mixer, to your software player pprogram, thence out on spdif/usb to the DAC. A sort of DIRECT routing, generally tied to the media player and output to the DAC.:D
If you are aiming for internet radio as well as your music library, you may possibly have to use a player which incorporates both capabilities, but others here have possibly done so. However, as you have two inputs on the CA DAC, you can run one DIRECT line for audio, another for everything else via the Mixer, selectable by the DAC's input switch for SPDIF or USB I would guess.:scratch:

Hope that helps a little.... Have fun :cool:

[wee tee cee]

The easiest way to get up and running is download I tunes and start ripping CDs at lossless- in the import settings. You dont need an I tunes account if you dont require album art. I use a 5m belikin pro usb cable connected to my dac to enable me to sit the lap top next to my listening position. Try half a dozen CDs to start with and if you want to get more exotic with set up you have already dipped your toe in the water. The squeeze box complicates matters IMHO.
Regards Tony.

[Stratmangler]

The squeeze box complicates matters IMHO.

In what way?

[Welder]

How are you getting on then Ron?
Hopefully you’ve had a go at ripping now. :)
I feel I should point out you don’t need to buy anything atm except maybe a USB cable to connect your computer to your Dac if you don’t already have one. ;)

Regarding your question about sound card and/or Dac.
Basically it’s one or the other. Both do digital to analogue conversion and unless you know how to bypass the Dac on your sound card using both could mean you do the Dac conversion twice; not a good idea, particularly given some sound cards and Dacs resample during conversion.

As Bob mentions you may have found using your sound card provides an S/PDIF out that your computer doesn’t.

What I would suggest is for the time being you keep everything as simple as possible; remove your outboard Dac and connect your Dac Magic via USB from your computer.
You can always try other combinations out at a later date.

Your Dac Magic has a reasonable USB receiver chip so I don’t believe you will notice any difference in sound quality by using USB to Dac directly from your computer rather than S/PDIF.

I certainly wouldn’t want to use itunes on a Windows computer. Many who use Apple computers don't use itunes either so I’ll leave you to consider what that tells you about itunes.
It’s a bit like most Windows based audiophiles don’t use Windows Media Player. ;)

I’m going to suggest you use foobar 2000 as your music player. There are a number of good players out there but for Windows machines, so far foobar is, and has been for some time, the favourite player for audiophiles.

http://www.foobar2000.org/

Another reason for choosing foobar is there is a lot of information here on AoS and on the internet on how to set foobar up for bit perfect replay so if you come unstuck then you’ll be able to get help from people who’ve been there and done it.

I’ll be back.

[JazzBones]

Hi again folks, thanks for the additional info. I haven't started any rips yet for two reasons, a. I'm having a last listen to the system with the CD transport in place... and it sounds SOOOoooo good. And, b. when the sun comes out at this time of year the missus has me outside digging holes in the garden for a new influx of plants and shrubs :doh:. I swear I'll dig one that she'll fit into, only joking, I love the daft gallah ;)

Yes, my listening to the radio is mainly to catchup with progs I've missed and to have some kind of noise upstairs, I'm not into silence.

Question: Do aftermarket USB leads, in this case from PC to DAC input, make much of a difference. From what I've read (somewhat limited) they CAN DO but this info comes from reviews in mags which most times can be taken with a pinch of snuff.... BUT, if you know differently, do tell? ... also, which one would you suggest I get if this is the case? I have a draw full of OEM USBs so I will make a start with these after first using the one on my RA sound card.

Ron

[Welder]

Hi again folks, thanks for the additional info. I haven't started any rips yet for two reasons, a. I'm having a last listen to the system with the CD transport in place... and it sounds SOOOoooo good. And, b. when the sun comes out at this time of year the missus has me outside digging holes in the garden for a new influx of plants and shrubs :doh:. I swear I'll dig one that she'll fit into, only joking, I love the daft gallah ;)

Yes, my listening to the radio is mainly to catchup with progs I've missed and to have some kind of noise upstairs, I'm not into silence.

Question: Do aftermarket USB leads, in this case from PC to DAC input, make much of a difference. From what I've read (somewhat limited) they CAN DO but this info comes from reviews in mags which most times can be taken with a pinch of snuff.... BUT, if you know differently, do tell? ... also, which one would you suggest I get if this is the case? I have a draw full of OEM USBs so I will make a start with these after first using the one on my RA sound card.

Ron

If you start with the belief that everything makes a difference and then accept that you cant hear most of them you can't go far wrong. ;)

Tell you what Ron, you come over here and piss about with my Hi Fi and I'll come over your place and dig holes in that glorious sunshine.
I bet I'm the one that goes to sleep with a smile on my face. :)

[wee tee cee]

In what way?
Chris,
I have to admit to being a complete numpty in all things computer. I ran a duet for some time and was completely incapable of solving any of the wireless problems I had. I had to barter bicycle maintainance jobs with my IT literate mate to get it going when it crashed. I found cutting out the squeeze box simplified my set up no end. Lap top/long usb/v link/co ax/dac....simple, utterly reliable and to my ears excellent.
Regards Tony

[Stratmangler]

Chris,
I have to admit to being a complete numpty in all things computer. I ran a duet for some time and was completely incapable of solving any of the wireless problems I had. I had to barter bicycle maintainance jobs with my IT literate mate to get it going when it crashed. I found cutting out the squeeze box simplified my set up no end. Lap top/long usb/v link/co ax/dac....simple, utterly reliable and to my ears excellent.
Regards Tony

I admire your honesty Tony :cool:

I have not had any major problems running Squeezebox, as I have, for 5 or 6 years now, which is why I questioned your last post.
I do however have a technical job, which is starting to demand more and more IT skills.