Other Technics alternatives to 1200/1210 [Archive]

Chris

29-12-2008, 12:07

SaSi

10-01-2009, 23:43

I'm afraid there are no other Technics TTs in production currently. Actually there is no other gear manufactured by Technics currently other than the SL1200.

Peter Stockwell

11-01-2009, 08:27

Would anyone be able to suggest any other Technics decks in current production as a cheaper alternative to the 1200 and 1210 ? These cost 550 euros over here which is a fair bit more than my mate wanted to spend.

Ebay. c. 250€-350€ for a good example.

Otherwise get one sent from England. Empire direct has them, or had them, at £315, or about 350€

StanleyB

11-01-2009, 09:35

We have been busy discussing the 'badge' issue. Is your friend after an outstanding turntable, or a turntable with a Technics badge?

DSJR

11-01-2009, 11:58

SL150 from the seventies possibly with a Nima, Hadcock or somesuch.

The SL1600/17001800 with a sprung suspension may be worth a look if they're cheap.

The early Quartz decks - 1300/1400/1500MK2's had similar arms but the cueing mech can fail and the current one is different. The drives are great though and ripe for tweaking. I don't know the 1600/1700/1800mk2's

The 1300/1400/1500 mk1's had lightweight plinths and resonated badly, athough if this can be dealt with, the decks are good.

This firm changed models every several months or so at the time.

The cheaper ones aren't really in the same ball park, although some of them are sort of Dual 505 or possibly Rega 2 standard

chris@panteg

27-01-2009, 23:04

Found this on ebay interesting, any thoughts !

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=220274909366

Marco

27-01-2009, 23:52

If it works ok, Chris, it'll be very good - with the right arm it should be in the same sort of ball park as my modded 1210 :)

Techincs used to sell that model without an arm as it was aimed at the Japanese audiophile market, and not DJs. The current SL-1200 and 1210 are different in that respect being much more commercial mass-produced products but which are still derived from the SL-110 and SP-10. It underlines the fact that the motor unit is the real quality part of the Technics decks and not so much the 'free bits' that come now with the current 1200 and 1210, which are mainly concessions to appeal to the DJ-ing market.

Marco.

chris@panteg

28-01-2009, 00:03

Thanks Marco' you do know your stuff' i would have taken a chance with it but as you may know hopefully i will have the Timestep tommorow :) and will be slightly nervous but looking forward to hearing it, but be that as it may i have grown to love this little Japanese marvel of engineering and will not be going back to ye olde english belt drive or should that be scottish Gramophone:scratch:.

Peter Stockwell

28-01-2009, 09:27

These are not that uncommon, a few months ago a seller on ebay France had 3 for sale at the same time. I don't know for certain but I thought that the SL110 and the SP10 mk1 were closely related. If so, then the SL110 wouldn't have the Quartz lock.

Marco

28-01-2009, 09:50

Hi Peter,

I don't know for certain but I think this, the SL110, and the SP10 mk1 are closely related. If so, then this wouldn't have the Quartz lock.

That's a bit confusing. Could you clarify which T/T you're referring to as "this"? If it's the SL-110 Chris linked to on Ebay then why mention the same deck again in the same sentence? :scratch:

Also, I'm pretty sure the SL-110 has Quartz locking. It was only some of the lower grade D/D models which didn't have that feature.

Marco.

StanleyB

28-01-2009, 10:35

The SL-110 speed is stabilised electronically. I don't think it had quartz lock.

chris@panteg

28-01-2009, 10:37

Here is the Sl 1100 which is virtually the same deck but with integrated arm
it appears not to have quartz lock!

± 5% by variable resistor

http://www.thevintageknob.org/TECHNICS/SL1100A/SL1100A.html#

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 10:38

Not true, all early DD did not have quartz lock, almost every model in fact.

Dave

Marco

28-01-2009, 10:52

Interesting. I was under the impression that Quartz locking was an integral part of all high quality Technics D/D motor mechanisms. I guess that the addition of Quartz locking is what gives the SL-1200 and 1210 the advantage in terms of speed accuracy over the older units.

So what does that say then about the SP-10 - does its lack of Quartz locking make it in some ways inferior? I suppose that it makes up for it in other areas of its design...

Dave,

Your above post is a bit confusing. Do you mean almost every model didn't have Quartz locking or the opposite? It's you saying "Not true" to the statement Chris made here:

it appears not to have quartz lock!

that's a bit confusing... :scratch:

Marco.

chris@panteg

28-01-2009, 10:57

Early sp10 did not have quartz lock i think SP10 mk 2 had it and so on

BTW Dave i just had citylink turn up with timestep ,thanks its a cute little thing very nicely made.

Clive

28-01-2009, 10:59

I believe the SP10 mk I does not have quartz lock.

The mk II does have quartz lock and a higher torque motor.

The mk III is supposed to be the best (Japan only).

Some say they prefer the mk I, don't know why.

StanleyB

28-01-2009, 11:03

I guess that the addition of Quartz locking is what gives the SL-1200 and 1210 the advantage in terms of speed accuracy over the older units.
Nope. When the 1200MK2 and 1210 came out a lot of people soon started complaining that the Quartz lock was affecting the sound. Since then many have done mods to disable it.

Marco

28-01-2009, 11:14

Interesting, Stan. I wouldn't know any different as I've only ever used models with Quartz locking.

I guess that ignorance is bliss because I've compared my modded 1210 with Quartz locking to Mark I SP-10s without it and not found my deck to be wanting much in any area ;)

Marco.

(The 'piss-poor Quartz-locking 1210' owner) :eyebrows:

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 11:22

What I said was correct, all early DD's from anyone, none had quartz lock. The SP-10 did not either, but the SP-10MKII always has. Finding a MKI SP-10 is virtually impossible. It was a technology quickly adopted, no one had thought of it earlier, it wasn't a technology thing, just a 'why not' thing.

But there is a general misconception about DD that I have talked about before. They are not digital, they are analogue and controlled by a phase locked loop. One input is the crystal (the reference), the other is the frequency generator which is a set of speed lines on the platter which tells the PLL what speed the platter is rotating. The output of the PLL is the error which is filtered by an RC network, and here is the analogue part, more or less current is given to the motor to make the error around zero. But the PLL can be adjusted, as we do on our SL-1200 mod, to perform like a poor jittery DJ deck (which the SL-1200 isn't) and at the other extreme like a bad belt drive.

I'll answer any sensible questions.

Regards

Dave

Marco

28-01-2009, 11:33

What I said was correct, all early DD's from anyone, none had quartz lock.

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realise that your previous reply was aimed at me and not Chris, whose post appeared immediately above yours.

Just a small tip - to make discussions easier to follow it's always best if when not replying to the person whose post appears immediately above yours to quote the person's text you're replying (or making reference to) before adding your reply on a post :)

So in your opinion then, Dave, is the Quartz locking Technics introduced later a good or bad thing in terms of greater speed accuracy, and thus one would hope, improved sonic performance?

Marco.

pure sound

28-01-2009, 11:49

There always seems to be a supply of Mk1 SP10's being sold in the US. Far fewer here although I've seen the odd one for sale. The Mk3 is very rare, particularly in the UK. A different beast to the Mk2, much more powerful motor & heavier platter too.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/TECHNICS/SPLINEUP/SP10MK3/SP10MK3.html

Peter Stockwell

28-01-2009, 11:53

There was an SP-10 Mk1 on ebay just a few days ago, don't know if it sold.

This, about the SP10 Mk1, taken from http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/technics_eng.html

"The motor was controlled by reading fluctuations of speed of the platter by a tachometer and comparing that signal to an electronic reference signal. So the speed has to drift a little before it is regulated again."

Which is probably the root of the Direct Drive turntables always hunting for the right speed thing.

Since I'm not a turntable collector, I wouldn't punt on a SP10 mk1.

cheers

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 11:57

Hi Marco, yes and no. Nothing is ever black and white in the analogue world. A well designed DD will improve with a well designed crystal PLL. That's all I can say.

Regards

Dave

Marco

28-01-2009, 12:31

Understood, Dave. All this hypothesising is fine but the bottom line is a good SP10 or modified SL-1210 pisses over about 95% of what's made today, and at often much lower cost ;)

As such, the world of Technics D/D ownership is a most happy one :)

Peter (and also Dave),

"The motor was controlled by reading fluctuations of speed of the platter by a tachometer and comparing that signal to an electronic reference signal. So the speed has to drift a little before it is regulated again."

Which is probably the root of the Direct Drive turntables always hunting for the right speed thing.

Indeed, but Quartz locking solves this problem, no? I don't think the SP10 or SL1200/1210 suffer from any such "hunting" issues, particularly when used with high quality PSUs such as the KAB or Time Step.

Marco.

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 12:45

Indeed, but Quartz locking solves this problem, no? Not really, it's in the design, re-read my post about PLL's ?

Dave

Marco

28-01-2009, 12:57

Too technical for me! You'll need to explain it in layman's terms. Do the SL-1200/1210 or SP-10 suffer from "hunting" issues or not? That's really all I'm interested in knowing.

Marco.

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 13:16

Marco, it's not that simple. There is hunting and hunting. Does a belt drive suffer from hunting? to a degree yes.

Does the SL-1200 - SP-10MKII? not much really, but the SL-1200 is improved by our mod as you can see at www.SL-1200-MK2.com

If life was simple, we could say definitive that model X turntable is the best, but it isn't like that.

I can't explain in layman's terms what has taken me years to understand. You need to read some articles about motion feedback and PLL's in general.

Regards

Dave

Marco

28-01-2009, 13:36

I can't explain in layman's terms what has taken me years to understand. You need to read some articles about motion feedback and PLL's in general.

And so what's taken you years to understand I'm likely to grasp in a few hours by reading some books? I don't think so! ;)

Fair enough though, Dave. I'll stay content in the knowledge that my ears and extensive experience of using turntables for over 25 years tell me that the modified SL-1210, whatever degree of "hunting" issues there is present or not, is a fabulous sounding turntable and able to compete with the best there is available.

Filling one's head with other 'nonsense' without having a full grasp of the technicalities involved is not really awfully productive :eyebrows:

Theories (or even some facts) are all good and well but the proof of the pudding with hi-fi is always in the listening...

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

28-01-2009, 14:25

Look at it this way. The world's most popular rubber band turntables slow down under dynamic load, they have low torque motors, and rely on the platter inertia to keep them going under dynamic load. The Nottingham analogue turntables have delibertely low torque motors to avoid transmitting motor vibrations to the Turntable platter.

A Technics DD (SL1200 or SP10 mkII) for example, will increase torque under load to maintain rotational speed.

Either will work if well implemented.

You pays yer money and your choice.

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 15:53

Peter/Marco

Exactly! There isn't a clear answer. But a little reading is always pleasurable!

Dave

Pete

28-01-2009, 17:46

Peter/Marco

Exactly! There isn't a clear answer. But a little reading is always pleasurable!

Dave

Dave,

How do you like your Neglex phono cable? Any comparisons you've made to others?

Pete

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 18:37

Only slightly not as good as silver/ptfe, but better than the low cost SME ones.

Dave

Pete

28-01-2009, 18:46

Only slightly not as good as silver/ptfe, but better than the low cost SME ones.

Dave

Can you provide sources for the silver/ptfe or neglex cables?

Thanks
Pete

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 18:54

Hi Pete

I supply the neglex cables see www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html

As for the silver/ptfe, you will have to wait, but expect £500++

Regards

Dave

Pete

28-01-2009, 18:57

Hi Pete

I supply the neglex cables see www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html

As for the silver/ptfe, you will have to wait, but expect £500++

Regards

Dave

uuhhhhh... I'll pass on the silver....

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 18:58

uuhhhhh... I'll pass on the silver....

Make your own! have some fun....

Dave

Pete

28-01-2009, 19:05

uuhhhhh... I'll pass on the silver....

Make your own! have some fun....

Dave

It may come to that at some point :)

Marco

28-01-2009, 22:32

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 22:35

Marco

Oh, and of course rubber-band wobblers are for pee-soaked weenie boys

That will alienate a lot of your members.

Dave

Marco

28-01-2009, 22:38

It's a well-known phrase amongst the cognoscenti, and of course entirely tongue-in-cheek ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley

28-01-2009, 22:56

cognoscenti, Oh, that's me out then! I'll have another Grolsh please?

Dave

Marco

28-01-2009, 23:00

Coming up, sir - we only have Grolsch, though; will that do? :cool: ;)

Marco.

shahsy

28-01-2009, 23:54

uuhhhhh... I'll pass on the silver....

That's exactly what I did!

All of my pure silver cables are either in the 'digital' cd/pre/power pathway or in the drawer. They seem to work on that side of things.

EXCEPT my tonearm lead which replaced SME Series V one and is better than the stock Technics EPA-100.

So for vinyl. it is silver at the front then Cardas Crosslink then Chord Cobra.

I'll snag some of J7's mixed cable when the EPA shuffles up there for a rewire.

s

Peter Stockwell

29-01-2009, 07:44

Indeed. I think though that the D/D solution is more purposeful and elegant :)

Oh, and of course rubber-band wobblers are for pee-soaked weenie boys :eyebrows:

I wouldn't go that far with respect to rubber band decks, there are, for example The Ravens, The Scheus, The SMEs and other massive decks that use a rubber band. The have a devoted following.

I know, now, how good the Teccie is, but I would have sneared at it, even 2 years ago. I also know I've never really got on with wobble decks. There's two decks that interest me outside the DD stable. The Raven 1 and the SME 10. That other range of german decks that Dave carries might be good too.

DSJR

29-01-2009, 20:12

Am I alone in rating the NAS turntables? They all sound great and the Dias is so close to master tape, as was the Mentor/Decca Microscanner I once owned.

By the way, I owned an SL110 first time round. It has great styling to my eyes and although not quartz locked, it's still stable with no hunting under moderate load (unlike the dire SL2000, which was a cheapo Technics disaster). The thing that killed it for me was the incredibly "live" plinth and terminal acoustic feedback of the standard article. Same goes for the SL120 mk1, but not the SL150 for some reason.

MartinT

29-01-2009, 23:55

uuhhhhh... I'll pass on the silver....

I can strongly recommend Homegrown Audio for all the items needed to make excellent inexpensive silver cables (yes, I use a set of SC-3 between phono amp and preamp).

http://www.homegrownaudio.com/

Mike

30-01-2009, 00:09

Hey... That's a new one for me, thanks! :)

alb

30-01-2009, 00:12

I can strongly recommend Homegrown Audio

Seconded.
The interconnects and speaker cables made a significant difference when i tried them in my system. Very open and spacious sounding.
Not the cheapest by my standards, but well worth the layout. Must get round to ordering some.
Incidentally Hificollective sell some of their wire in the UK.

Seriously worth trying Mike.