View Full Version : Advice on modifying my sl1210
People have been very helpful on my tech buying advice thread. Thanks to you all. The thread was beginning to morph into a modification thread so I thought it best to start another.
I'm going to take the general advice already given ie spend some time with the std deck first and then modify it slowly once I know exactly what areas I want to improve.
I haven't even heard tbe deck yet as I'm waiting for my phono stage to arrive.
One thing I noticed was tge standard phono cables with it look quite 'cheap'
Since I have quite decent cables everywhere else in my system (including many balanced) it seems a shame to let these tech cables let the side down. So I'm thinking about upgrading these at some point
Can anybody tell me how big a job this is? I would probably get this done by a professional. So are there any other wires within the mk2 that are worth upgrading whilst I'm at it?
Thanks
Hi David, upgrading the phono cables is not difficult if you're careful and experienced at soldering. The four conductors of the stock cables are soldered to a small PCB board inside the Technics. There are two options: One is to bring your "new" cable inside the Technics - making sure to find a way to hold it from pulling out - and then solder the appropriate conductors in place of the stock cable; the second option is to bring the four conductors (perhaps new upgraded wires) to a DIN or RCA block which is attached to the Techie plinth.
The benefit of the first option is that you don't have extra connectors in the signal path; the benefit of the second is that you can change phono cables at your pleasure. If you don't like one it is easily changed however the cost of the second option is higher - for the same cable - because you have more connectors to buy.
I should have added that it is very important when and if you change the phono cables that you select a low capacitance cable.
twelvebears
18-03-2012, 18:28
I've a stock arm that has been rewired end to end by Jonny at Audio Origami, sitting in a box unused.
It would be a straight swap, so PM me if it's of any interest.
chris@panteg
18-03-2012, 18:31
You could send the arm to J7 Audio Origami ? Get him to fettle it at the same time , might save you a bundle as the stock arm can sound really enjoyable with the right cart ?
Not sure its worth splashing out on a 309 for the Techy , especially if you just listen to dance music ?
edit , check out Steve's offer above .
Thank you.
We have discussed the wires I can see (ie the phono cables) and the wiring within the arm. But is there any other wiring within the turntable?
If/when I upgrade the the phono cables is it ok to get Mark Grant to make some up? Will his cables be low capacitance as Ken recommends?
Steve, I will bear your offer in mind, thank you.
Stratmangler
18-03-2012, 20:20
Put the mains transformer and PSU board in an external box, and disable the pitch control (disconnect the slider and put a molex link on pins 6 & 7).
Also remove the magnet boss from the platter, fill the recess with blutack and reattach the magnet boss.
The Furutech tonearm cable has received some good feedback on this forum previously. It's quite expensive though:
http://www.furutech.com/a2008/reviewc.asp?r1_no=78&r2_no=293
RobbieGong
19-03-2012, 13:14
Put the mains transformer and PSU board in an external box, and disable the pitch control (disconnect the slider and put a molex link on pins 6 & 7).
Also remove the magnet boss from the platter, fill the recess with blutack and reattach the magnet boss.
I'd be careful as some of us who tried this mod found that filling the complete area was over egging the pudding. Rav who originally posted the 'mod' filled the holes at north east south and west of the magnet with it attached. I myself tried both but prefered sound without any blue tac fill whatsoever. Try doing a little and take it from there ie: see if you like the change in sound as you go along :)
Mike_New
19-03-2012, 22:28
Thank you.
We have discussed the wires I can see (ie the phono cables) and the wiring within the arm. But is there any other wiring within the turntable?
.
Hi Dave.
IMHO before you start to consider any upgrades to arms or PCB wiring. You should look at replacing/removeing the on-board power supply. Either with an external one, or by removing the transformer and putting it in an external box.
Thanks to everybody for their advice
Well (as posted under my my phono settings thread) I fired up the sl1210 for the first time last night. Initial findings were that it sounded shockingly bad until Chris pointed out I had the wrong settings on the phono pre!
After that I have been frankly very surprised at just how good this deck sounds straight out of the box on a DJ cart (stanton 500-II) It really sounds much better than I thought it would.
I need to listen more to see what areas I might want to improve. However one of the first things I thought might be worth doing (and relatively inexpensive) is to change the cart as a starter.
I know a lot of people recommend the PSU to start with but as this can cost £500++ I thought I might let this wait for now.
People have already recommended me some carts earlier on in this thread but they vary from £100 to £500.
So my question is how much do I need to spend on a cart for it to be a significant improvement over the Stanton 500?
Thanks
Stratmangler
23-03-2012, 10:06
I know a lot of people recommend the PSU to start with but as this can cost £500++ I thought I might let this wait for now.
Just take the original PSU out and put it in an external box.
And disconnect the pitch control and put a molex link on pins 6 & 7.
My vote goes to Nagaoka MP30 to start with :)
chris@panteg
23-03-2012, 10:19
Tricky one for me as I have no idea what the Stanton sounds like , but the AT95E is cheap and sounds quite good , better with the HE stylus from LPgear or an AT120E for a bit more cash sounds very good with the STD arm , and for a bit more there are the DL110 and AT440MLA .
Also consider the Ortofon 2M red but I suggest the AT440MLA would or might be great with your taste in dance music .
Hi David,
People have already recommended me some carts earlier on in this thread but they vary from £100 to £500.
So my question is how much do I need to spend on a cart for it to be a significant improvement over the Stanton 500?
Well, I would ask what your budget is, to give us an idea of what to recommend! ;)
And do you want an MM or an MC cartridge? I should say that the only MC cartridges I'd recommend using on the stock Techy arm is something fairly undemanding, like a Denon DL-110, which do sound very good. Otherwise MMs tend to work best on the stock arm.
Dave K's suggestion is good. The current Nagaoka range is full of superb cartridges at various price points. There are also some bargains to be had on eBay with quality vintage designs, which will often outperform their modern counterparts, such as the Goldring G800, and some of the Shures.
However, to get the ball rolling, I'll first of all ask what music do you like?
Thing is, the Stanton 500 (is it the discontinued 'AL' you've got?) is actually a pretty decent cartridge, as long as you listen to mainly rock, pop and dance music, where its 'exuberance' and fun factor are portrayed in their best light, and if that's the kind of music you like, and would rather keep your money and save up for an off-board PSU or a better tonearm, then you may find that there is not much better up to around £150.
If you're a fan of jazz, classical, or anything more demanding than the above, then forget about it, as the Stanton just won't cut it with that type of music.
The Stanton, however, used within its limitations, is in my opinion rather unfairly maligned, as it's a quality item, built by a company with many years experience in producing products for the professional industry, and as a result many thousands of Stantons have been in use in radio stations, for broadcasting purposes, all over the world, particularly in America. They wouldn't have been used like that if they weren't any good!
The Stanton 500 cartridge is one that, had it been made by a 'normal' hi-fi manufacturer, would cost considerably more than it does... It's rather like the Techy, in that respect, and the fact that its reputation has suffered from its association with the DJ market, when the reality is that both products deserve rather more recognition outside of that arena.
To hear the Stanton at its best, apply a little mass to the headshell, by using the small screw-on weight, which comes with the Techy, as the spherical tip of the 500 likes to 'see' a bit of mass, which is more than the stock arm and headshell are able to provide.
If you've lost that little weight, or didn't get it in the first place, then Blu-Tak a Penny coin onto the top of the headshell, or better still, fit a heavier, better quality headshell altogether (such as the excellent Sumiko, shown here: http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Sumiko_HS-12_Universal_Replacement_Headshell_SUM-HS), and track the Stanton at around 2.5g (or less), but no lower than 2g, forgetting all about using the ridiculously heavy VTFs quoted as being suitable within the recommended range, as these are simply for club use, in order to prevent any skipping in an environment prone to heavy vibration. In normal use, they kill the sound of the cartridge.
The good thing about buying the Sumiko is that you can use it later with any other detachable headshell arm you buy (such as a Jelco 750), when upgrading the stock arm, or you can keep it as a spare, fitted with another cartridge, and swap quickly and easily from one to the other!
That done, and used within its music limitations, trust me, you'll be very surprised at just how good the Stanton sounds! ;)
Marco.
To add, I've just found a cartridge that would sound absolutely stunning on the Techy arm (and indeed on any arm!), at bargain price, considering that this cartridge will outperform most MM designs made today, if you value a naturally musical sound, rather than a clinical and 'hi-fi' sounding one:
https://www.emporiumhifi.com/shop/article_272/NAGAOKA-MP11-GOLD-SB-Stilton-Solid-Body-Moving-Magnet-Cartridge-New-Unused.html?sessid=ZZ1s9guMbPkLuKZ8OEvRC6FLJuMnGnC CNz1mUliEhlnTJdeOLLuc2suBOndN9O4d&shop_param=cid%3D17%26aid%3D272%26
Someone should snap that up, toute-suite! :trust:
Marco.
Stratmangler; thanks for that suggestion. I have no diy skills at all but if I can find a 'professional' who can do it I may pay them to do it.
Dave, thanks I will look into that cart
Chris, the AT44O MLA seems to be highly recommended. The question is will it be a definite improvement over the Stanton?
Marco; all I could see written on the side of the cart was Stanton 500-II. When I'm at home tonight I'll try and see if it says anything else.
My musical tastes are 99% dance music (hip hop/electro/house/dnb etc). I never listen to classical.
In terms of whether I want MC or MM, I've been told that I should stick to MM on the stock arm (which I intend to keep for now)
Budget wise I'd like to of course spend the least amount possible. However I don't want to spend so little that there is no discernible benefit, that would be a waste of time. I'm happy to spend an amount to ensure that there is a real and audible benefit.
In terms of an upgraded head shell like the Sumiko; if/when I buy a new arm won't that come with its own head shell?
Thanks again:)
Hi David,
Just to address some of your questions:
Chris, the AT44O MLA seems to be highly recommended. The question is will it be a definite improvement over the Stanton?
In some ways, yes.
For example, the AT will have a 'gentler' and more refined presentation and a cleaner (brighter) sounding top-end, compared with the Stanton. The AT will therefore suit a much wider range of music. However, what you won't get with the AT, is the Stanton's amazing depth and drive, in the lower frequencies, its detailed midrange projection, and overall 'get up and go' (I call it 'fun factor'), with dance music.
If it's mainly dance/club-style music that you listen to, there is really no need to change your cartridge at all. The AT, in that respect, would be a downgrade.
Marco; all I could see written on the side of the cart was Stanton 500-II. When I'm at home tonight I'll try and see if it says anything else.
I know the one - it has a black body, with a white stylus housing at the front. That's the better (now discontinued) model, so I'd hang onto it, if I were you, as those are set to be classics of the future!
My musical tastes are 99% dance music (hip hop/electro/house/dnb etc). I never listen to classical.
That says it all for me... The Stanton is therefore perfect for your needs. The only other cartridges I'd recommend over that are the top models in the Ortofon OM Pro range, which take what the Stanton does and do it even bigger and better!
See here: http://www.ortofon-dj.com/en/products/cartridges?phpMyAdmin=e5a01501e493495e7d4929f2ae4e e988
If you want to improve on your Stanton, then those are what you should be looking at.
In terms of whether I want MC or MM, I've been told that I should stick to MM on the stock arm (which I intend to keep for now)
Absolutely. It's completely pointless wasting money on an MC cartridge, given your taste in music, which would be much better served by using quality 'Pro-style' MM cartridges.
Budget wise I'd like to of course spend the least amount possible. However I don't want to spend so little that there is no discernible benefit, that would be a waste of time. I'm happy to spend an amount to ensure that there is a real and audible benefit.
I'd keep what you've got and simply spend the money on more music, or treat yourself to an Ortoforn Condorde S-120! ;)
In terms of an upgraded head shell like the Sumiko; if/when I buy a new arm won't that come with its own head shell?
Yes, but if it's a detachable headshell arm, the supplied one may not be as good as the Sumiko. Apart from that, part of the fun of having a detachable headshell arm is being able to fit different cartridges quickly and easily, so in that respect, you can never have too many headshells! :)
If you like dance music, then the stock tonearm is well good enough for the job, so you should forget all about upgrading that area of your T/T, until later, when perhaps an Audio Origami rewire would be the way to go. In that respect, I'd snap up Steve (Twelvebears) offer!
The first thing you should do, if you haven't done so already, is fit a better mat and feet, as the supplied items are primarily what kill the sound of a stock SL-1200/1210, in a hi-fi sense. These should be replaced with a Funk Firm Achromat and Vantage Audio or Isonoe feet, respectively. Do that, and also buy the Sumiko headshell. The other stuff, such as off-board PSUs, etc, can be done later.
Then your Techy will groove like a bastard! :gig: :trust:
Marco.
Thanks Marco.
Though I listen to dance music I do want to hear it in the most transparent, accurate and refined way possible. So though my musical taste is 'street' I am a middle aged discerning listener(:D) and have invested heavily in the rest of my electronics as a result.
The Ortofan S-120 is only about £100 which seems rather cheap compared to some of the stuff out there. Is it really the best one for my needs, is there anything better?
In terms of the feet and mat I am going to follow your advice immediately. You've mentioned two feet options ie Vantage Audio or sorborthane (?). For the latter are you referring to the Time step ones? If so do you have a preference between the vantage and the time step?
Many thanks for your time and effort:)
I found the upgrade from Stanton 520V3 to Stanton 681EEE mk3 (£109) to be well worth it, maintining that big sound but adding a lot more detail and some badly needed overall refinement. In some respects it is a half-way house between a club cartridge and a hi-fi cartridge. Worth considering given your taste in music.
JazzBones
23-03-2012, 16:21
....And disconnect the pitch control and put a molex link on pins 6 & 7.
Chris, I want to disconnect my pitch control, where do I get hold of a suitable Molex by pass link?
Thanks
Ron
....And disconnect the pitch control and put a molex link on pins 6 & 7.
Chris, I want to disconnect my pitch control, where do I get hold of a suitable Molex by pass link?
Thanks
Ron
Me too but I would need help in identifying pins 6 & 7 also :) .
Dave
Guys,
See this thread, and note posts #46 and 47, in particular:
http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15537&page=5
Marco.
Stratmangler
23-03-2012, 17:58
....And disconnect the pitch control and put a molex link on pins 6 & 7.
Chris, I want to disconnect my pitch control, where do I get hold of a suitable Molex by pass link?
Thanks
Ron
I got mine off an old PC motherboard.
I got mine from here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180807734611?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Marco.
Thanks Marco.
Though I listen to dance music I do want to hear it in the most transparent, accurate and refined way possible. So though my musical taste is 'street' I am a middle aged discerning listener(:D) and have invested heavily in the rest of my electronics as a result.
The Ortofan S-120 is only about £100 which seems rather cheap compared to some of the stuff out there. Is it really the best one for my needs, is there anything better?
In terms of the feet and mat I am going to follow your advice immediately. You've mentioned two feet options ie Vantage Audio or sorborthane (?). For the latter are you referring to the Time step ones? If so do you have a preference between the vantage and the time step?
Many thanks for your time and effort:)
Hi Marco
I would appreciate your thoughts on the above.
Thanks
I found the upgrade from Stanton 520V3 to Stanton 681EEE mk3 (£109) to be well worth it, maintining that big sound but adding a lot more detail and some badly needed overall refinement. In some respects it is a half-way house between a club cartridge and a hi-fi cartridge. Worth considering given your taste in music.
Thanks Martin
Hi David,
Hi Marco
I would appreciate your thoughts on the above.
Thanks
Just having my din-dins - I'll get to your questions as soon as I'm finished :cool:
Marco.
Beechwoods
23-03-2012, 21:37
:popcorn:
Excellent thread, seems like it was made for me :whistle:
Wakefield Turntables
23-03-2012, 21:41
Disabling the pitch control is a great way to remove crap from your PCB. I went the whole hog and removed the light, the pitch control and the strobe light all I can say is that I noticed a marked difference in my 1210. ;)
Hi David,
Though I listen to dance music I do want to hear it in the most transparent, accurate and refined way possible. So though my musical taste is 'street' I am a middle aged discerning listener(:D) and have invested heavily in the rest of my electronics as a result.
That's a tricky one... You see, whilst I understand exactly where you're coming from, if you *only* listen to dance music, the fact is the cartridges I've recommended will maximise its inherent qualities better than most 'audiophile' designs.
Dance music is one of those genres, in some ways like classical, which requires a slightly different approach from the norm to get right - and that's why you need a specific type of cartridge (luckily you've got the right T/T for the job), and I'd even suggest, a specific type of speakers and amps, if you really want to hear (and indeed feel!) dance music at its best.
The Ortofon S-120 costs £135: http://www.decks.co.uk/products/ortofon/Serato_S120 I think it would make an excellent job of all types of dance music - far better than the majority of 'audiophile' cartridges would, which just aren't voiced to make the most of this style of music.
Unless you invested significantly in an appropriate arm and cartridge, not to mention a phono stage that will do justice to them, in order to realise the transparency, accuracy and refinement you seek (and I'm talking £1000s here), then your best route to achieving the sound you crave is to follow the advice I've given.
But of course, the final decision is yours.
In terms of the feet and mat I am going to follow your advice immediately. You've mentioned two feet options ie Vantage Audio or sorborthane (?). For the latter are you referring to the Time step ones? If so do you have a preference between the vantage and the time step?
The Vantage Audio feet are available from here: http://www.vantageaudio.com/ However, IMO, the Isonoes are better (in most scenarios), so if you can afford those, that's what I'd get. Personally, I wouldn't use the Time Step variety.
Many thanks for your time and effort
You're welcome. Hope it's helped! :)
Marco.
Beechwoods
23-03-2012, 22:18
You can get Isonoe's here at a good price http://www.divineaudio.co.uk/furniture/spike-shoes-and-accessories/isonoe-isolation-feet-set-of-4/prod_2096.html
chris@panteg
23-03-2012, 22:35
Marco , I don't know if you were aware that David has just got one of these :)
http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/prd_images/RDT%20above%20website.jpg
Nice one! However, there's not much point in having a phono stage like that, if the arm and cartridge further down the chain aren't delivering the goods...
If David is at that level, then he should've given an appropriate budget, as a guide, in order to get his turntable up to the same performance level as his phono stage! ;)
So, shall we start again? :)
Marco.
Hi David,
That's a tricky one... You see, whilst I understand exactly where you're coming from, if you *only* listen to dance music, the fact is the cartridges I've recommended will maximise its inherent qualities better than most 'audiophile' designs.
Dance music is one of those genres, in some ways like classical, which requires a slightly different approach from the norm to get right - and that's why you need a specific type of cartridge (luckily you've got the right T/T for the job), and I'd even suggest, a specific type of speakers and amps, if you really want to hear (and indeed feel!) dance music at its best.
The Ortofon S-120 costs £135: http://www.decks.co.uk/products/ortofon/Serato_S120 I think it would make an excellent job of all types of dance music - far better than the majority of 'audiophile' cartridges would, which just aren't voiced to make the most of this style of music.
Unless you invested significantly in an appropriate arm and cartridge, not to mention a phono stage that will do justice to them, in order to realise the transparency, accuracy and refinement you seek (and I'm talking £1000s here), then your best route to achieving the sound you crave is to follow the advice I've given.
But of course, the final decision is yours.
The Vantage Audio feet are available from here: http://www.vantageaudio.com/ However, IMO, the Isonoes are better (in most scenarios), so if you can afford those, that's what I'd get. Personally, I wouldn't use the Time Step variety.
You're welcome. Hope it's helped! :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco. The chances are I will do exactly what you suggest as it will be the most affordable answer to my needs.
However, I'm fascinated to know what you would suggest if I were happy to invest £1000s in an arm/cart. Which arm/cart combos would you be thinking of?
I haven't quite figured out how to put it on my sig but fyi my kit list is
SL1210 > Whest PS 3.0RDT> Audio Research LS17 pre> Lyngdorf RP1 room correction> Lyngdorf sda 2175 > Monitor Audio Platinum 300 speakers
Thanks again:)
Signature sorted, David!
See my last post... With a phono stage like the Whest, you really need to invest the same amount of money on your front end, in order to get the most from your system.
Therefore, we'll have to re-evaluate things accordingly! You must tell me exactly how much you can spend on an arm and cartridge for your T/T :)
Marco.
You can get Isonoe's here at a good price http://www.divineaudio.co.uk/furniture/spike-shoes-and-accessories/isonoe-isolation-feet-set-of-4/prod_2096.html
Thanks. I'll order those on Monday:)
Signature sorted, David!
See my last post... With a phono stage like the Whest, you really need to invest the same amount of money on your front end, in order to get the most from your system.
Therefore, we'll have to re-evaluate things accordingly! You must tell me exactly how much you can spend on an arm and cartridge for your T/T :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco. I should have been more clear, my fault.:)
However it is still difficult for me to give you a fixed budget. I'm prepared to spend as long as the money gets results and is not just about vanity and willy waving.
I'd rather know what the absolute best options are and then work down from there if I can't afford it.
Also, I may well still buy the Ortofon cart you suggested as a temporary measure whilst I get to grips with the whole vinyl thing.
And thanks for sorting out the sig:)
Thanks Marco. I should have been more clear, my fault.:)
However it is still difficult for me to give you a fixed budget. I'm prepared to spend as long as the money gets results and is not just about vanity and willy waving.
No worries... I'm glad you've said that, as that's exactly my approach to audio! Trust me, any recommendations I give you will always be designed to provide maximum return on SPP (sound-per-pound) ;)
I'd rather know what the absolute best options are and then work down from there if I can't afford it.
Ok, if I were building a Techy to max-out on reproducing dance music, at its absolute best, with cost no object (without going silly), first of all I'd get the PSU, and bearing of the T/T sorted, as those are utterly fundamental in allowing the Techy to realise its full potential - and also that of the partnering arm and cartridge!
Therefore, I'd buy a Mike New bearing, from here: http://www.mikenewaudio.com/bearing.php
A Paul Hynes SR7-EHD, from here: http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page7.html
Now, with those in place, we can now move onto arms and cartridges. The tonearm I'd recommend is the Origin Live Silver MK3A, shown here: http://www.tonearm.co.uk/silver-tonearm.htm
With a Zu-Audio modified Denon DL-103, reviewed here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0310/zu_audio_dl_103_mc.htm
Then, I'd add a Denon AU-S1 moving coil step-up transformer (shown below), which will optimise the sound of the DL-103 cartridge, when run through the MM stage of the Whest: http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/Vinyl+Accessories/product/Denon_AU-S1_Audiophile_MC_Step-up_Transformer.html
That set-up would give you a KILLER sound with dance music and utterly blow your mind, but also guarantee that you didn't get much sleep!! :eyebrows:
Also, I may well still buy the Ortofon cart you suggested as a temporary measure whilst I get to grips with the whole vinyl thing.
And thanks for sorting out the sig:)
Coolio! The Ortofon cartridge will definitely show you what's possible on a budget - in fact, through a phono stage like the Whest, I think you'll be staggered at how good it'll sound, for such a fairly paltry cost! ;)
Get the mat and feet sorted first, though....
Marco.
You can get Isonoe's here at a good price http://www.divineaudio.co.uk/furniture/spike-shoes-and-accessories/isonoe-isolation-feet-set-of-4/prod_2096.html
Speak to Tim Chorlton and tell him I sent you ;)
You can get Isonoe's here at a good price http://www.divineaudio.co.uk/furniture/spike-shoes-and-accessories/isonoe-isolation-feet-set-of-4/prod_2096.html
Crazy. These are just as good and cost about 15 bucks for a set:
http://cyberphotographer.com/garrards/12-02-12-14-15-56_27.jpg
Use double yellow dot. The bolts can be longer than isonoes too, allowing for more adjustment. I sold my isonoes.
The most important thing you can do to your deck is get the power supply out of it. Here's a thread about that:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=101356
A better arm cable, or better arm is also a good idea, but you will probably need to spend at least 500 quid, and probably quite a bit more, to beat the stock arm. Don't bother replacing it with a Rega, for instance. Funk do an FXR specifically for Technics 1200, which retains the on-the-fly vertical adjustment.
You don't need to spend a fortune on a mat either. Cut a disc out of a sheet of 3mm or 5mm heavyish foam. The stuff that comes with Linn amps is fine. Use the thick Technics rubber mat under the foam. It's quite heavy.
Beware spending a fortune on trinkets for this deck. There are other decks which outperform it at sensible prices, like the Well Tempered Amadeus, and possibly Simplex.
No worries... I'm glad you've said that, as that's exactly my approach to audio! Trust me, any recommendations I give you will always be designed to provide maximum return on SPP (sound-per-pound) ;)
Ok, if I were building a Techy to max-out on reproducing dance music, at its absolute best, with cost no object (without going silly), first of all I'd get the PSU, and bearing of the T/T sorted, as those are utterly fundamental in allowing the Techy to realise its full potential - and also that of the partnering arm and cartridge!
Therefore, I'd buy a Mike New bearing, from here: http://www.mikenewaudio.com/bearing.php
A Paul Hynes SR7-EHD, from here: http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page7.html
Now, with those in place, we can now move onto arms and cartridges. The tonearm I'd recommend is the Origin Live Silver MK3A, shown here: http://www.tonearm.co.uk/silver-tonearm.htm
With a Zu-Audio modified Denon DL-103, reviewed here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0310/zu_audio_dl_103_mc.htm
Then, I'd add a Denon AU-S1 moving coil step-up transformer (shown below), which will optimise the sound of the DL-103 cartridge, when run through the MM stage of the Whest: http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/Vinyl+Accessories/product/Denon_AU-S1_Audiophile_MC_Step-up_Transformer.html
That set-up would give you a KILLER sound with dance music and utterly blow your mind, but also guarantee that you didn't get much sleep!! :eyebrows:
Coolio! The Ortofon cartridge will definitely show you what's possible on a budget - in fact, through a phono stage like the Whest, I think you'll be staggered at how good it'll sound, for such a fairly paltry cost! ;)
Get the mat and feet sorted first, though....
Marco.
Thanks Marco
That gives me a great idea of how to modify the tech for my purposes if I wanted to take it to the max.
Now I can decide how much I'm prepared to spend and when. Great advice and I'm very grateful:)
Richard,
1) what are those feet in the pics? Squash balls and washers?
2) In terms of taking the transformer out there is no way I'm going to do it. I have no diy skills and anything I touch never works again. So that means I need to find somebody to do it. Depending on what they charge it may not cost much more to pick up an entry level aftermarket PSU
The added benefit of the aftermarket PSU is that if I ever decide to sell the techie on then it would probably be far easier to sell one that hasn't been 'butchered' in that way.
3) I do take your point about spending so much on the techie that I could potentially buy something better. That is one of the reasons why I was thinking of upgrading the cart to something exotic first. At least with a cart (and arm) I could take those with me should I ever decide to move onto another deck.
Many thanks for your help
I do take your point about spending so much on the techie that I could potentially buy something better.
You won't find it easy to hit the limits of the Techie, David. Well-modded, it can be put up against some very serious vinyl spinners.
Beechwoods
24-03-2012, 10:36
Its also something that is actively being innovated upon by many designers and engineers, and so isn't something that just stands still, like some high-turntables you could buy that can't easily be modded further.
Dinodale
24-03-2012, 10:38
Thanks Marco
That gives me a great idea of how to modify the tech for my purposes if I wanted to take it to the max.
Now I can decide how much I'm prepared to spend and when. Great advice and I'm very grateful:)
That can't be more true. A great thing with modding your Techie is you can do it in steps so you don't ruin yourself plus it gives you a time to enjoy the improvement along the way.
Sorry for my english but had a tough night:cool:
Btw i am using an AT120e witch I think is a great allround cartridge and in my opinion is one of the best for the budget. It is a great one for a "starter" before upgrading the tonearm.
Hi Richard,
Nice to see you here, matey! Good tip on the 'budget' support feet - I'm sure that they'll be very effective in certain situations. Isonoes tend to (but not always) work best on glass. Also, when you look at the engineering quality of the Isonoes, you can see why they cost what they do...
With these types of things, one has to 'suck it and see', as to what is the most sonically effective, in different environments :)
The most important thing you can do to your deck is get the power supply out of it. Here's a thread about that:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=101356
Agreed, although of course not everyone will want to do this, for the reasons David has given.
A better arm cable, or better arm is also a good idea, but you will probably need to spend at least 500 quid, and probably quite a bit more, to beat the stock arm. Don't bother replacing it with a Rega, for instance.
Totally 100% agree!!
Funk do an FXR specifically for Technics 1200, which retains the on-the-fly vertical adjustment.
And it's superb... More people, spending that amount of dosh on an arm, should consider it before selecting the boring 'usual suspects'.
You don't need to spend a fortune on a mat either. Cut a disc out of a sheet of 3mm or 5mm heavyish foam. The stuff that comes with Linn amps is fine. Use the thick Technics rubber mat under the foam. It's quite heavy.
Another good tip, which I'm sure would work well in many instances.
Beware spending a fortune on trinkets for this deck. There are other decks which outperform it at sensible prices, like the Well Tempered Amadeus, and possibly Simplex.
Sure, but of course that's your opinion, and thus entirely subjective! ;)
My view of the Well-Tempered is that it's very good, but also very different from the Techy. Therefore it's different, rather than intrinsically better - and so I wouldn't use the term "outperform", in that context.
Marco.
Thanks.
Yes it was the impression I got from here that the sl1210 could be modded to compete with some serious high end stuff (and retain the easy of use, 45/33 rpm switch capability etc of the 1210). However the guys on the wam sort of feel otherwise.
They seem to think that after simple mods like feet, mat etc everything else is a bit of a waste of time. When I say a waste of time what they seem to think is rather than spending more money on the tech its better to just buy a 'higher level' deck.
Though I respect a lot of the opinions and experience of the guys on wam I'm not sure I agree. What I've heard of the tech so far hints that it could be very very good indeed.
Back to carts for a few moments though if you'll humour me. I'd like a couple more suggestions please. So basically a MM cart (any price) that I can use on the std arm for now and that will improve on the Stanton in every way.
Thanks again, I see I'm going to have great fun with vinyl and the techie!
Hi David,
Yes it was the impression I got from here that the sl1210 could be modded to compete with some serious high end stuff (and retain the easy of use, 45/33 rpm switch capability etc of the 1210). However the guys on the wam sort of feel otherwise.
You're right, but I guess they're entitled to their opinion; provided that it's based on relevant listening experience, and not what they'd imagine is the case, based on unjustified bias or wishful thinking!
They seem to think that after simple mods like feet, mat etc everything else is a bit of a waste of time. When I say a waste of time what they seem to think is rather than spending more money on the tech its better to just buy a 'higher level' deck.
Well, like I said, they're entitled to that opinion, *if* it's based on something relevant and meaningful.
The problem is that most of the guys who spout that stuff most likely haven't heard a fully-modded Techy, fitted with everything that makes it into a genuinely high-end turntable, and so in that respect, their opinion on the matter has little value.
If they actually heard such a T/T in their own system, against a "higher level" one of their choice, they'd soon change their mind! That's not to say they'd necessarily prefer the Techy, but it would certainly show them that, sonically, when suitably modified, it deserves to be taken very seriously!
Though I respect a lot of the opinions and experience of the guys on wam I'm not sure I agree. What I've heard of the tech so far hints that it could be very very good indeed.
Always use your own ears as the final arbiter, as ultimately, they're the only ones that matter.
Back to carts for a few moments though if you'll humour me. I'd like a couple more suggestions please. So basically a MM cart (any price) that I can use on the std arm for now and that will improve on the Stanton in every way.
Well, as Martin (Macca) recommended earlier, the Stanton 681EEE would be an excellent choice. If you're quick, you could nab this one on eBay, from the States:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110845211333?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Looks like it'll be going for a bargain price! ;)
Another option would be the superb Nagaoka cartridges (particularly the vintage MP11, I linked to earlier, on the Emporium website) and the better ones in their current range:
http://www.musonic.co.uk/cartridges-nagaoka-c-4_22.html
The MP-150 would be my choice, for your musical tastes. The MP-300 is also amazing value, for achieving genuinely 'high-end' sound from an MM cartridge.
Thanks again, I see I'm going to have great fun with vinyl and the techie!
That's what it's all about! :cool:
Marco.
There's no substitute for living with the various decks so that you can really get used to them. Here's my current stable:
http://cyberphotographer.com/technics/studiotts.jpg
The SL1200 is TimestepHE, Mike New bearing, Ekos II, OC9 II. It's a good deck, but at that price a used Amadeus gets you there for less, and with very little tinkering.
Superb line-up, Richard! Are they all permanently connected up, and so easily swapped between one and the other, or do you have to do a bit of jiggery-pokery? :)
Marco.
P.S Love the spent (and half-spent) bottles of plonk!
And does that champagne bottle on the left improve the sound? :)
Thanks Marco.
Richard, you can't argue with that photo, fantastic!
I've taken on board all the fantastic advice, thanks to all. I will be ordering the feet and mat as recommended by Marco (and others) on Monday
I've had some more time listening to the deck and have a better idea what I would like to hear improved. For my own education could anybody tell me which of the mods (out of feet, bearing, psu, tonearm, cart etc) is most likely to help with it. If of course you can answer it like that as I realise it may well be a cumulative effect.
1) The bass can sometimes sound a bit 'woolly, loose, flabby, lacking control'
2) The soundstage is actually quite big (probably helped by my pre, phono pre and speakers). There is no problem with the size of the soundstage but it can sometimes sound a bit muddled or imprecise. It's fine if there is only one thing going on ie just a voice, or just an instrument. But if there is for example somebody singing, a keyboard and a heavy bassline it can sound a bit muddled.
Many thanks again
My inexpert opinion is that they are both characteristics of the cartridge. It's fun but it is not in any way sophisticated.
I would say that Isonoe feet will clear that up nicely.
1) The bass can sometimes sound a bit 'woolly, loose, flabby, lacking control'
2) The soundstage is actually quite big (probably helped by my pre, phono pre and speakers). There is no problem with the size of the soundstage but it can sometimes sound a bit muddled or imprecise. It's fine if there is only one thing going on ie just a voice, or just an instrument. But if there is for example somebody singing, a keyboard and a heavy bassline it can sound a bit muddled.
I think removing the PSU may help quite a bit with issue 2. For issue 1 you could try removing all 829 screws from the bottom of the deck so the top plate is less well coupled to the rubber base. Also remove the lid when playing. There are many other routes to cleaning up the bass, but those are effectively free. Removing the PSU is step 1 with any SL1200. It's fundamental IMO.
chris@panteg
25-03-2012, 22:16
I think removing the PSU may help quite a bit with issue 2. For issue 1 you could try removing all 829 screws from the bottom of the deck so the top plate is less well coupled to the rubber base. Also remove the lid when playing. There are many other routes to cleaning up the bass, but those are effectively free. Removing the PSU is step 1 with any SL1200. It's fundamental IMO.
Hi Richard
Decoupling the top plate , conflicts wildly with what Richard (vantage audio) told me ?
In that the coupling of the 3 layers that make up the 1200 is quite critical to obtaining the best performance from the deck !
I'm not saying he's right because I've never messed with it , but if one does not like the character of the deck ? Must be over a hundred other TT's out there :)
Thanks. I think I've been told enough times now that getting the PSU is an essential first step in improving the performance. It's about time I listened:)
Richard, thanks. I will remove the lid from now on when I listen. I don't fancy loosening the screws until I look into it a little more though.
Ok, so feet and mat will be ordered today. I'll get the PSU as soon as I can figure out which one to get
Beechwoods
26-03-2012, 06:20
The lid on the SL1210 is easy to remove, and restore if ever you come to sell. Unscrew the hinges from the plinth, and take them off along with the lid itself.
If you still want a dustcover you can remove the hinges from the lid, and replace them with some of these, replacement rubbers.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/380395804465
This gives you a removable, loose lid that will keep the dust off when your deck isn't in use. Don't leave it on when playing records as the interference with the sonics is going to be considerable.
The MK5 came with a removable lid along these lines, hence the availability of stock rubbers.
KAB offer a 'no-hinges mod' for any SL12xx which is basically what I describe above.
ThanksNick. Will those rubbers work on a mk 2 as it says for mk5 on the ebay link.
Thanks
Ordered
1) Funk Firm mat (god that's expensive for a mat!)
2) Feet
3) AT 440 cart
4) Sumiko headshell
That's going to be it for now! I'll spend money now on buying some more vinyl and listening to it. PSU will be next once bank balance has recovered.
I'll feedback once I've got all the stuff fitted.
Will the cart just be plug and play?
You will need to adjust the cartridge with a protractor. Free ones are available from VinylEngine. Check the Technics Arc Protractor here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml
It can also be good to have a cartridge weight to get the tracking force correctly.
Beechwoods
26-03-2012, 14:06
ThanksNick. Will those rubbers work on a mk 2 as it says for mk5 on the ebay link.
Thanks
Should do from what I've read. I'm waiting for my lid to arrive. I've got the rubbers, so when it does, I'll let you know!
You really do not need to spend a fortune on a power supply. Simply buy a plastic component box from Maplin for five quid and exorcise the stock power supply. The problem is the proximity of power supply to cartridge, and putting the perfectly good stock power supply in an external box solves it. I'm not convinced that power supply upgrades are audible. Exorcising the stock supply is.
Nor do you need to splash out on feet. The standard feet are perfectly good. Four double yellow dot squash balls with bolts and washers arranged as in my photograph will do an excellent job if you're determined to improve on the stock feet. Siting is the other way to control feedback.
Hi Richard,
You really do not need to spend a fortune on a power supply. Simply buy a plastic component box from Maplin for five quid and exorcise the stock power supply. The problem is the proximity of power supply to cartridge, and putting the perfectly good stock power supply in an external box solves it.
Good advice. I'm sure that the stock PSU, suitably 'exorcised' (love your use of that term!) would be as good as some of the average-performance external PSUs out there. However, IME, the better ones (such as those from Paul Hynes) significantly improve on what the stock PSU is capable of.
I'm not convinced that power supply upgrades are audible.
Fair enough, if that's what your experience tells you to date. Mine, however, tells me something rather different: and that there were clear and easily defined sonic improvements by going from a Timestep PSU, to a Paul Hynes SR3, then to an SR5, and finally to the SR7, which I use now.
The improvements gained by going from the entry-level Timestep PSU to a Paul Hynes SR7 were, in fact, more fundamental than the effect gained by removing the stock PSU from underneath the platter!
Nor do you need to splash out on feet. The standard feet are perfectly good.
Again, this is contrary to my own (extensive) experience in this area, where I've found that the stock feet totally kill the sound of the Techy, making it sound 'leaden', bass heavy and 'rhythmically inept' (another way of saying that the stock feet f*ck up the timing of the music), although how easily one hears that effect largely depends on the surface upon where the turntable is placed.
I have no experience of using squash balls, as sorry, I think they look crap and cheapen the look of the turntable. For that reason alone, even if they didn't work very well (as they do in my system, and that of others), I'd use Isonoes. I simply dislike things that look home-made.
It's just a thought, but perhaps one of the reasons why you've found that some good (but, IMO, fairly unspectacular) turntables outperform the Technics, is because you haven't heard one that has been modified extensively enough? :)
Some of the items you're dismissing (such as the better off-board PSUs available) are in fact significantly responsible for elevating the Techy's performance into the league of that of a genuinely high-end turntable, but you'd need to hear this first, to know it....
Marco.
Thanks Jostein and Nick.
Richard, I've ordered the feet already so too late on that one! And they do look very sexy in the pics.
The psu debate between yourself and Marco is an interesting one. I can understand completely how removing the transformer from the body of the deck would improve the sonics. However like you can't quite get how a more expensive psu would be better than a basic one.
However saying that these claims are made for other products as well. I'm sure Naim make more than one level of psu for their cd players and preamps. People seem to swear that the more expensive versions improve the sound as compared to the cheaper ones. So perhaps there is something in it?
prestonchipfryer
26-03-2012, 17:04
You will need to adjust the cartridge with a protractor. Free ones are available from VinylEngine. Check the Technics Arc Protractor here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml
It can also be good to have a cartridge weight to get the tracking force correctly.
The link to Vinyl Engine doesn't work. This is the message when you click the link:
Congratulations!
You have reached the last page on the internet.
We hope you enjoyed surfing the web but there is really nothing more to see.
Please remember to turn off your computer before leaving the room.
John
Hi David,
The psu debate between yourself and Marco is an interesting one. I can understand completely how removing the transformer from the body of the deck would improve the sonics. However like you can't quite get how a more expensive psu would be better than a basic one.
ALL audio equipment is a slave to the way in which it receives power from the mains supply, and turntables are no exception.
Here's an interesting thread for you to read. Please note in particular post #17, from Paul Hynes, where he explains exactly why high-quality external PSUs are sonically desirable: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14305&page=2
Marco.
Hi John,
The link to Vinyl Engine doesn't work. This is the message when you click the link:
Congratulations!
You have reached the last page on the internet.
We hope you enjoyed surfing the web but there is really nothing more to see.
Please remember to turn off your computer before leaving the room.
Try accessing the link directly, via your address bar, without going through AoS... ;)
Marco.
The link to Vinyl Engine doesn't work. This is the message when you click the link:
Congratulations!
You have reached the last page on the internet.
We hope you enjoyed surfing the web but there is really nothing more to see.
Please remember to turn off your computer before leaving the room.
John
Strange, seems like the page has disappeared somewhere. The protractor can be found here as well:
http://www.hi-files.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=129956
More instructions here for alignment:
http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl02.html
Buying a protractor like the Elac/Schon one might save some time though.
I suspect VE are preventing direct links to their pages - don't know if it's all their pages, or indeed if they are blocking deep links from any website or if they are checking the referring url and only blocking links from other hi-fi fora.
As Marco said, just copy and paste the page url into your browser's address bar.
My point was this: I found that removing the power supply from the deck, at almost no cost, produced an audible improvement which I can't say with certainty is less than the improvement of installing a Timestep HE supply. I haven't heard the Paul Hynes supplies.
I do wonder whether the engineers at Technics who designed this deck were aware that power supplies make a difference, and included one which was adequate to the point of being inaudible. That would seem to me to be a typical engineer's goal. The deck is very well designed in other respects, and it seems quite hard to improve it significantly by replacing parts. For example, I found the arm no worse than an Origin Live modified RB250, which has quite a reputation. My Ekos II is slightly more revealing, but you would need to know what you were listening for to notice it at once.
I think people hear all kinds of differences when they change the deck in some way. How much better it gets as a result of all these mods is a pretty moot point. I've come round to selling some of the mods that are championed as big improvements on these pages. Proceed with caution and thrift.
Beechwoods
26-03-2012, 20:13
The link to Vinyl Engine doesn't work.
...
John
Try copying the link and pasting it into a new browser window. Vinyl Engine are playing games with some of their incoming links :rolleyes:
My point was this: I found that removing the power supply from the deck, at almost no cost, produced an audible improvement which I can't say with certainty is less than the improvement of installing a Timestep HE supply. I haven't heard the Paul Hynes supplies.
I do wonder whether the engineers at Technics who designed this deck were aware that power supplies make a difference, and included one which was adequate to the point of being inaudible. That would seem to me to be a typical engineer's goal. The deck is very well designed in other respects, and it seems quite hard to improve it significantly by replacing parts. For example, I found the arm no worse than an Origin Live modified RB250, which has quite a reputation. My Ekos II is slightly more revealing, but you would need to know what you were listening for to notice it at once.
I think people hear all kinds of differences when they change the deck in some way. How much better it gets as a result of all these mods is a pretty moot point. I've come round to selling some of the mods that are championed as big improvements on these pages. Proceed with caution and thrift.
Thanks Richard. It's healthy and constructive to have the balancing (slightly contrarian?) opinion on the forum.
I'll see whether these initial mods (ie feet, mat, headshell, cart) actually improve anything before I proceed further
Thanks:)
Hi Richard,
My point was this: I found that removing the power supply from the deck, at almost no cost, produced an audible improvement which I can't say with certainty is less than the improvement of installing a Timestep HE supply. I haven't heard the Paul Hynes supplies.
Sure, and that's a valid observation, as it reflects your own experience. I've not compared the stock PSU to a Timestep HE, but I have heard what the stock PSU sounds like, in an external box. I've also used the 'entry-level' Timestep PSU, which I found in reality to be no more than average.
I do wonder whether the engineers at Technics who designed this deck were aware that power supplies make a difference, and included one which was adequate to the point of being inaudible. That would seem to me to be a typical engineer's goal.
Indeed. However, you've hit the nail on the head, with the word "adequate". The stock PSU in the Technics is indeed "adequate".
However, like most of the constituent parts of the SL-1200/1210, it was built to a price - and so therefore, by definition, can be improved, which is where very well designed, high-quality PSUs (like Paul's) come in.
Make no mistake, if you heard what these do (and some of the other genuinely high-quality off-board PSUs, on the market), when used with an SL-1200/1210, you would soon realise where I'm coming from! ;)
What makes the Technics special, is the quality of its direct-drive motor unit, and so the (worthwhile) modifications that others and I have carried out on our turntables, have all been about maximising the sonic potential of that superb motor unit, which is why upgrading the existing PSU, with something substantially better, pays significant dividends: simply because one then hears more of what the motor unit is capable of.
I can assure you that I've not spent £5k+ on my own T/T because I could easily have obtained something as good as, or if not better, for less... I did it because, to my ears, there's nothing else out there under £10k that offers the same standards of music replay from vinyl - and I mean that!
I think people hear all kinds of differences when they change the deck in some way. How much better it gets as a result of all these mods is a pretty moot point.
It's not moot when you listen (and know exactly what you're listening for), I can assure you! If you're free sometime, I'd like to bring my T/T down, and we can compare it to the other T/Ts you've got, and see what you think. There's no substitute, after all, for relevant listening experience... Would you be up for that?
I'm sure that both of us would learn from the exercise, and we can report the results here, for other people's benefit. I could even bring a bottle of Lanson down for you to quaff! :cheers:
Marco.
chris@panteg
27-03-2012, 00:31
My point was this: I found that removing the power supply from the deck, at almost no cost, produced an audible improvement which I can't say with certainty is less than the improvement of installing a Timestep HE supply. I haven't heard the Paul Hynes supplies.
I do wonder whether the engineers at Technics who designed this deck were aware that power supplies make a difference, and included one which was adequate to the point of being inaudible. That would seem to me to be a typical engineer's goal. The deck is very well designed in other respects, and it seems quite hard to improve it significantly by replacing parts. For example, I found the arm no worse than an Origin Live modified RB250, which has quite a reputation. My Ekos II is slightly more revealing, but you would need to know what you were listening for to notice it at once.
I think people hear all kinds of differences when they change the deck in some way. How much better it gets as a result of all these mods is a pretty moot point. I've come round to selling some of the mods that are championed as big improvements on these pages. Proceed with caution and thrift.
I think I have to agree with you Richard , I don't think there is much wrong with the original psu , built down to price ? So is the bearing and the motor ! The whole SL1200 is built down to a price , Matsushita could and did make a better turntable !
The biggest difference/improvement I have heard to date with mine is the Vantage Audio factory workshop psu vs the Timestep psu .
My advice to anyone wanting to mod the SL1200 series is to take it slowly and make small changes ,some of the upgrades available appear to make large improvements ? Or is it just different ?
Hi Chris,
I think I have to agree with you Richard , I don't think there is much wrong with the original psu...
Then why can plenty of us (including you) using much better PSUs, born by their designers from access to a bigger available budget and superior components, than National Panasonic originally had at their disposal, clearly hear significant sonic improvements? Like I said, the stock PSU is merely 'adequate for purpose'. Some of us demand rather more!
...built down to price ? So is the bearing and the motor !
Hence why the former is a bottleneck and easily improved by the Vantage bearing (at extra cost), and certainly the Mike New one (at even greater cost), thus proving my point that the stock bearing was built to a price (along with everything else)!! ;)
The motor, of course, also comes into that category, but it's unquestionably the least compromised original component in an SL-1200/1210.
The biggest difference/improvement I have heard to date with mine is the Vantage Audio factory workshop psu vs the Timestep psu .
And why was that, exactly? Because the original items were built to a price; and thus were inferior. That is the fact of the matter, Chris.
My advice to anyone wanting to mod the SL1200 series is to take it slowly and make small changes ,some of the upgrades available appear to make large improvements ? Or is it just different ?
One would simply use one's ears to judge. Your advice to take things slowly is good, and this is something that I would also always recommend, certainly to the OP, David.
However, there are known and trusted ways now, based on considerable collective experience, if one has the available funds, of transforming a stock SL-1200/1210 into a veritable high-end turntable, able to compete with the best, in one big hit!
So if you've got the money to do, then why not? :)
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
27-03-2012, 05:52
I suspect VE are preventing direct links to their pages - don't know if it's all their pages, or indeed if they are blocking deep links from any website or if they are checking the referring url and only blocking links from other hi-fi fora.
As Marco said, just copy and paste the page url into your browser's address bar.
Yes cheers. Don't actually need a p'tor, just pointing to that particular link not working.
John
chris@panteg
27-03-2012, 08:21
Hi Chris,
Then why can plenty of us (including you) using much better PSUs, born by their designers from access to a bigger available budget and superior components, than National Panasonic originally had at their disposal, clearly hear significant sonic improvements? Like I said, the stock PSU is merely 'adequate for purpose'. Some of us demand rather more!
Hence why the former is a bottleneck and easily improved by the Vantage bearing (at extra cost), and certainly the Mike New one (at even greater cost), thus proving my point that the stock bearing was built to a price (along with everything else)!! ;)
The motor, of course, also comes into that category, but it's unquestionably the least compromised original component in an SL-1200/1210.
And why was that, exactly? Because the original items were built to a price; and thus were inferior. That is the fact of the matter, Chris.
One would simply use one's ears to judge. Your advice to take things slowly is good, and this is something that I would also always recommend, certainly to the OP, David.
However, there are known and trusted ways now, based on considerable collective experience, if one has the available funds, of transforming a stock SL-1200/1210 into a veritable high-end turntable, able to compete with the best, in one big hit!
So if you've got the money to do it, then why not? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
Can I put it this way then , my 1210 has improved immensely and to be honest am quite content with it now but it still sounds like a Technics , it retains that sonic signature to my ears at least , is that a bad thing ? Not for me !
I don't see the point in trying to make it a world beating TT ? Spending limitless amounts of cash ? I just want it sound the way I like my music presented ! Probably not to everyone's taste but I think it's just about there now , the cartridge has run in , its never going to sound like a Voyd but that's ok :)
Hi Chris,
Can I put it this way then , my 1210 has improved immensely and to be honest am quite content with it now but it still sounds like a Technics , it retains that sonic signature to my ears at least , is that a bad thing ? Not for me !
Absolutely: every turntable in existence creates its own sonic signature!
I've also always said that different drive systems are, in that sense, the same, and that if one has the necessary experience and knows what to listen for, one can usually hear the repeatable effects of a specific type of drive system, regardless of what turntable uses it.
Therefore, in effect, belt-drive has a certain intrinsic 'sound', as indeed does idler and direct-drive, etc, so I know exactly what you mean when you say that your modified SL-1210 still "sounds like a Technics". It will do - even more so now that it's been judiciously modified, because the modifications you've carried out, whilst curing known deficiencies in the design, simply allow the motor unit to realise more of its full potential, thereby making it sound 'more like a Technics'! ;)
In my view, that's a good thing, because I consider that the 'Technics sound' (and in turn that of a quality direct-drive motor unit) to impose the least sonic signature on recorded music, of all the available drive systems. Therefore, in that respect, I believe it to be the most neutral sounding I've heard, which is precisely the traits a good turntable should have. If the goal is to achieve genuine high-fidelity, then one wants to hear more of the music, and less of the turntable!
I don't see the point in trying to make it a world beating TT ? Spending limitless amounts of cash ?
Surely this has been explained on the forum, umpteen times already?
Ok, one LAST time, and hopefully it will sink in.... If you don't have the funds, in one hit, to go out and buy a "world beating TT", then why not buy a turntable which has the ability to become one (although I wouldn't describe it in those terms), but in affordable stages?
That is *precisely* the whole point of why people here do what they do with their SL-1200s and 1210s. Either that, or satisfy themselves halfway along the road, when they realise that, even at that level, they've got a fantastic turntable, stop and leave it there, and just enjoy the music. Both approaches are valid, as are indeed all others in between!
Martin T's turntable and mine has cost us, in total now, in excess of £5k, but they can both compete with so-called 'higher level' turntables, costing the same and also, I suspect, many times that amount, so what's hard to understand or not to like about that?
I just want it sound the way I like my music presented ! Probably not to everyone's taste but I think it's just about there now , the cartridge has run in , its never going to sound like a Voyd but that's ok
Well, that's absolutely fine. You simply choose the level you want to take it to, and leave it there, but acknowledge that in doing so, there are always going to be others who will want to take it a stage further, to a higher level, and that the Technics has the intrinsic sonic capability for them to realise that goal.
As an aside, I should point out that an SP10 has even greater potential, and once as judiciously modified as some 1210s are here, would seriously deserve the title of being a "world beating TT"......!
The Techy will never sound like a Voyd, simply because (as discussed earlier) the Voyd has its own 'house sound' (just like any other turntable), born not only from the cumulative effect of its constituent components, and the designer's aims, but the intrinsic 'sound' of the belt-drive system it utilises.
At the end of the day, it's all a compromise, as there is no 'perfect' turntable, just like there is no 'perfect' anything in audio!
Therefore, one simply has to choose one's compromises. My view, based on years of experience of experimenting with a multitude of different turntables (since 1982), is that a judiciously (and extensively) modified SL-1200/1210, produces one of the least sets of sonic compromises, which I've ever heard from a turntable.
It's as simple as that. :)
Marco.
JazzBones
27-03-2012, 10:40
For ease and clarification when we talk about outboard power supplies could we please identify the actual model being discussed. ie: Chris Panteg states that his Vantage power supply bettered the Timestep PSU, which one I ask, the standard or the HE version, do you know? I know that Chris actually used the standard but he could be misleading in just saying the 'The Time Step psu', to me its like saying 'THe Paul Hynes PSU', which one SR3 or the all singing and dancing one SR7 with add ons'??? :scratch::eyebrows:
The first thing I changed when I first got my 1210 (factory sealed box new), some four years ago and a few months down the line, was the mat, the feet and an outboard PSU (The TimeStep HE version)... this was the improvement that made me take the deck to its present very high level of MN bearing and bonded base plate, MN ali/copper platter, ebony armboard and AO tweeked Ekos, Reso Mat, Origin Live rubber feet, Townshend Seismic sink dedicate table, I would imagine now on a par (or not far off) with Marco's or MartinT's possibly barring the PH SR7 psu, which I have yet to hear in my system. The TS HE is a superb little psu (for me :)) and it makes me ask the question 'do I wish to go further...I really dunno'?
My 1210 was meant for my little cubby hole home office but now my modded Sondek LP12 is doing the duties there and the 1210, as above, is in my main all Naim system and apart from being an absolute visual match, it sings its little Quartz DD heart out!
Is the time and expense worth it? ...... At the end of the road, a big Yes and Yes again. The in between stages of the deck from stock (good) to super modded is also good and a fore taste of better things to come.
One carefully considered step at a time according to what you want and what you want to spend is my advice FIW.
Ron
prestonchipfryer
27-03-2012, 11:01
Just my thoughts.
Since starting with my Technics SL1200: TS PSU, SME V, MN bearing, MN composite platter and Isonoe feet with glass and sorbothane boots, between 2009 and now. In those three years my Technics has gone from average to outstandlingly good.
Along the way I had a TS bearing (which is way inferior in my view), an SME M2-9 (which suits the Technics well) which was replaced by the SME V. And recently, the MN composite platter (which is expensive) but has made one of the biggest improvements in perceived sound quality, especially in the bass and articulation of what people are actually singing.
So I say the best way is to replace the PS first, then the bearing, then the tonearm and then the platter. But before any of that replace the stock feet with Isonoes or MCRU feet and disable the pitch control, which is not needed for hi-fi use. Also change the stock mat for a Funk Achromat.
Yes about 4K, not cheap, but I believe I would have to spend in excess of 10-12K to better it at the moment.
Of course it's not perfect, but to my ears it is very, very good. It has me re-evaluating my vinyl collection.
The next step is to replace the power supply with a Paul Hynes PS.
John :)
I would imagine now on a par (or not far off) with Marco's or MartinT's possibly barring the PH SR7 psu, which I have yet to hear in my system.
I think you're probably right, Ron. The way you've fitted the MN bearing base-plate is none other than a lesson in perfection! Fancy doing mine, if I get one? ;)
I do think, however, that there is likely more to come from your T/T by installing, say, an SR7EHD PSU, as experience tells me that Paul Hynes has a way with power supply design, which is at a different level from most.
I'm having the regulator mods (like Martin installed recently) fitted to my T/T on Thursday, where upon I expect its performance to go up yet another few notches... Full report to follow on that one! :cool:
Marco.
Beechwoods
27-03-2012, 13:22
ThanksNick. Will those rubbers work on a mk 2 as it says for mk5 on the ebay link.
Thanks
Got my lid today. Stock Technics lid. The rubbers just drop in where the hinges would have attached. Works nicely :)
chris@panteg
27-03-2012, 13:39
For clarification it was the std Timestop PSU , the vantage PSU was not my own but Richard's workshop or reference PSU , which to buy would cost in the region of 6-700 pounds , I felt despite the difference in performance it was too much !
Marco I know what you're getting at , I just don't think its worth it ! And I have heard everything except the PH PSU's , listened to the MN bearing , funk platter and oyaide mat .
Marco I know what you're getting at , I just don't think its worth it !
Well that's fine, although in that context, how does one define 'worth'?
Why not come and hear my T/T, Martin's, Ron's or Andrew's (as examples of the more heavily modified Techies around) and see if afterwards you still feel the same way? :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
27-03-2012, 14:18
I get the feeling (I could be wrong though) that Chris is in love with the Voyd sound and may well never be happy or content until he gets one back in his system. They turn up S/H from time to time, so be patient and buy one, when you see one.
I had a Voyd Valdi and I loved it and I miss it still, I should never have parted with it but I did and while I know what I have now is better its not a Voyd. They just do something with music that is wonderful and the big Voyd's are even better.
Regards D S D L
Sure, Neil - and there's nothing wrong with that... We all have different tastes. If the Voyd does if for Chris, then coolio! :)
Marco.
Got my lid today. Stock Technics lid. The rubbers just drop in where the hinges would have attached. Works nicely :)
Thanks Nick.
So just to be clear, I remove the lid from the hinges and then put the rubber things where the hibges were? And then the lid can be slotted into and out of the rubber things?
Thanks
Hi David,
What do you feel about some of the recent contributions to the thread, with 'seasoned' users of the Techy, outlining why (in their opinion), when suitably modified, it is a very good turntable? :)
Marco.
Beechwoods
27-03-2012, 17:49
Thanks Nick.
So just to be clear, I remove the lid from the hinges and then put the rubber things where the hibges were? And then the lid can be slotted into and out of the rubber things?
Thanks
Hi David, the rubber things go on the lid itself, to make it freestanding and removeable.
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/15515d26.jpg http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/b3d8e25e.jpg
Hi Marco
I've already followed some of the advice ie I have ordered the Funk Firm mat and the iso feet (+ new cart). They should arrive tomorrow:eyebrows:
It seems universally accepted by you techie owners that the psu is an essential part of the upgrade process and in some ways best done earlier rather than later. There is obviously some difference of opinion/experience as to whether one psu (or even stock psu relocation) is actually sonically superior to another.
As I listen to the deck more I hear the short comings (compared to the same tracks on CD) so I have a better idea on what I want to see improved.
The psu is going to be a big decision for me, and a big commitment. For example vantage, origin live etc psu are advertised as starting from about £200. The top level Paul Hynes psu is circa £600, that's one hell of a difference. For that sort of money I don't want to have to convince myself there is an audible difference I want to it to be clearly audible in the first ten seconds.
My biggest fear with modding the techie is that I hope it's not like when some people mod cars. In other words somebody buys a Vauxhall Corsa for £10k and then spends £40k trying to make it as fast as a Porsche. You might as well have had bought a Porsche in the first place with the bonus that you won't look like a plank in a souped up Nova:lol:
I'd like to hear some real benefit from the mat/feet/cart (though I understand the first two are 'minor' mods) and this will give me courage to commit to an expensive psu. From this psu I would expect to hear a really significant improvement in sound. If I don't then I'll bail out at that point, cut my losses and look at a 'higher end' turntable.
I hope all that makes sense?:)
Hi David, the rubber things go on the lid itself, to make it freestanding and removeable.
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/15515d26.jpg http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/b3d8e25e.jpg
Thanks Nick. So basically the rubber widgets allow me to rest the lid on the deck. I think I get it now:)
Dinodale
27-03-2012, 20:37
Hi Marco
I've already followed some of the advice ie I have ordered the Funk Firm mat and the iso feet (+ new cart). They should arrive tomorrow:eyebrows:
It seems universally accepted by you techie owners that the psu is an essential part of the upgrade process and in some ways best done earlier rather than later. There is obviously some difference of opinion/experience as to whether one psu (or even stock psu relocation) is actually sonically superior to another.
As I listen to the deck more I hear the short comings (compared to the same tracks on CD) so I have a better idea on what I want to see improved.
The psu is going to be a big decision for me, and a big commitment. For example vantage, origin live etc psu are advertised as starting from about £200. The top level Paul Hynes psu is circa £600, that's one hell of a difference. For that sort of money I don't want to have to convince myself there is an audible difference I want to it to be clearly audible in the first ten seconds.
My biggest fear with modding the techie is that I hope it's not like when some people mod cars. In other words somebody buys a Vauxhall Corsa for £10k and then spends £40k trying to make it as fast as a Porsche. You might as well have had bought a Porsche in the first place with the bonus that you won't look like a plank in a souped up Nova:lol:
I'd like to hear some real benefit from the mat/feet/cart (though I understand the first two are 'minor' mods) and this will give me courage to commit to an expensive psu. From this psu I would expect to hear a really significant improvement in sound. If I don't then I'll bail out at that point, cut my losses and look at a 'higher end' turntable.
I hope all that makes sense?:)
Hi David,
If I was you and had the money I would go for a Mike News bearing. It is quite easy to install plus it will give you an good idea what you can gain in modding your Techie. After that you deside if you will stop there or go further down the "moddingroad":)
For me it has been a good thing to upgrade in steps and give myself a chance to enjoy my upgrades before I continued buying new modds.
If you're free sometime, I'd like to bring my T/T down, and we can compare it to the other T/Ts you've got, and see what you think. There's no substitute, after all, for relevant listening experience... Would you be up for that?
I'm sure that both of us would learn from the exercise, and we can report the results here, for other people's benefit. I could even bring a bottle of Lanson down for you to quaff! :cheers:
That is an offer that's too good to turn down. Let me know when suits you and we'll put a day aside. We might be better starting with beer though, or I for one won't be able to make anything like a reliable judgment.
Hi Richard,
Nice one! When you get a chance, PM me with some suggested dates. Sometime after Easter should be cool :cool:
Marco.
RobbieGong
27-03-2012, 21:49
Hey Richard Marco, Marco Richard, I would sincerely like to meet you both when this takes place as I live in London. So from one modded MK5g nut to another ........ :)
Cool idea, Robert. Why don't we have a mini-London bake-off? Richard, how much room do you have? :eyebrows:
Marco.
RobbieGong
27-03-2012, 22:04
Nice one Marco, I can bring my 'baby' although I sense your highly tuned audiophile 'beast' might well devour her :eek: :lol:
Lol... It's all about meeting up and having a giggle, dude :eyebrows:
Marco.
RobbieGong
28-03-2012, 09:54
Nice one Marco, Looking forward to meeting you both :).
Hi David,
I've already followed some of the advice ie I have ordered the Funk Firm mat and the iso feet (+ new cart). They should arrive tomorrow:eyebrows:
Nice one, dude. Don't forget to bond the mat FIRMLY to the platter, with the enclosed adhesive pads, as that makes a significant difference to the effectiveness of the Achromat.
To get the best from the Isonoe feet, screw them in as far as their threads will allow. Once that point has been reached, simply 'nip them up' gently and leave them there. DO NOT over-tighten them!
Also, don't be tempted to level your turntable with them, by adjusting the feet accordingly. If your turntable needs levelled, then do so by making adjustments to the rack/surface the T/T sits on, as the Isonoes work best when left in position, as I have outlined above :)
It seems universally accepted by you techie owners that the psu is an essential part of the upgrade process and in some ways best done earlier rather than later. There is obviously some difference of opinion/experience as to whether one psu (or even stock psu relocation) is actually sonically superior to another.
Yes, I think that you can take upgrading the stock PSU, as a given. There is no doubt in my mind that the PSUs Paul Hynes produces (for example) are significantly superior to the stock one, even when the latter is relocated in an external enclosure.
As I listen to the deck more I hear the short comings (compared to the same tracks on CD) so I have a better idea on what I want to see improved.
That's good. Would you please outline what you're hearing in that area? It would be useful in allowing me to recommend what may be a possible cure.
The psu is going to be a big decision for me, and a big commitment. For example vantage, origin live etc psu are advertised as starting from about £200. The top level Paul Hynes psu is circa £600, that's one hell of a difference. For that sort of money I don't want to have to convince myself there is an audible difference I want to it to be clearly audible in the first ten seconds.
I couldn't agree more. Therefore, I have a suggestion...
Richard has suggested a bake-off at his place in London, which Robbie and I intend to go to, so since you're also in London, why not pop along (presuming that Richard is ok with this?) and you'll be able to hear his Techy, using the stock PSU, externally, against my Techy, fitted with the Paul Hynes 'dog's bollocks' SR7EHD. You can then also hear for yourself if my T/T significantly outperforms his, and use that experience to help you decide on what PSU to go for.
It will also give you a good idea of just how far the Techy can be taken, sonically, in terms of modifications. You could also bring your own T/T along, as a reference! Howzat for a plan? :)
My biggest fear with modding the techie is that I hope it's not like when some people mod cars. In other words somebody buys a Vauxhall Corsa for £10k and then spends £40k trying to make it as fast as a Porsche. You might as well have had bought a Porsche in the first place with the bonus that you won't look like a plank in a souped up Nova:lol:
Lol... I *totally* understand. That's exactly how I felt nearly 4 years ago, when I popped £1300 (in advance, for a brand new 1210MK5G, with all his mods fitted, of my money in some guy's bank account in the States. Kevin, from KAB USA, who supplied the very first commercial modifications for the Techy), whom I didn't know from Adam, and waited for 6 weeks for delivery of a modified turntable that I had no idea of how it would sound!! :mental:
Fortunately, when it arrived, and I (very nervously) placed the stylus into the grooves of the first record I played, as soon as the music started, I knew that my risk had paid off, and that I'd made the right decision! The rest, of course, is history... ;)
I'd like to hear some real benefit from the mat/feet/cart (though I understand the first two are 'minor' mods) and this will give me courage to commit to an expensive psu. From this psu I would expect to hear a really significant improvement in sound. If I don't then I'll bail out at that point, cut my losses and look at a 'higher end' turntable.
I hope all that makes sense?
It makes perfect sense. However, if you follow my advice, and that of other experienced modded Techy users here, I very much doubt that will happen.
The whole point of threads like this, is to ensure that 'newbies', such as yourself, get the benefit of our experience, so that they don't make the same mistakes we made (if indeed any were made at all), and that they have an 'established path' to follow, which works for most, and therefore the 'journey' to musical satisfaction with a modded SL-1200/1210, is as smooth and as pain-free as possible! :cool:
Marco.
Thanks Marco. Yes I would be up for a bake off if the host will have me!
The first goodies have arrived ie cart, feet, mat and headshell..
Tge sumiko headshell hS come without aany written instructions so I'm a bit stuck.
1) There is a finger lift with it and I have no idea how it attaches
2) Do I need to use any part of the stock headshell as I can't see how the sumiko will hold the cart
3) The headshell has come with the 4 tiny leads as has tge cart. Which leads shall I use.
With the mat should the sticky discs go anywhere in particular or should I just spread them around?
Thanks for all your help
chris@panteg
28-03-2012, 15:15
I get the feeling (I could be wrong though) that Chris is in love with the Voyd sound and may well never be happy or content until he gets one back in his system. They turn up S/H from time to time, so be patient and buy one, when you see one.
I had a Voyd Valdi and I loved it and I miss it still, I should never have parted with it but I did and while I know what I have now is better its not a Voyd. They just do something with music that is wonderful and the big Voyd's are even better.
Regards D S D L
You got me sussed :)
I do really like the Techy though , and it's never sounded better.
I got home really late last night so couldn't take up Marco's extremly kind off er of help with the head/cart.
I did however slap on the feet and put the funk firm mat on. The mat is not stuck onto the platter yet, it's just placed on top for now.
I listened for about 30 mins. The first track I played didn't sound any better. I thought it might be a poor recording so tried some others.
I didn't have much time to listen but things did seem better. Everything just seemed to sound clearer and more focussed. I could hear detail now that before was being smeared.
All seems positive so far. Hopefully once Marco has helped me set up the head and cart (and I stick the mat) things should improve again
Beechwoods
29-03-2012, 10:39
You need to get that mat bonded solidly to the platter to really hear it's affects.
MartinT here uses a small amount of vaseline to achieve a semi-permanent bond. It works, by all accounts. Personally, I went with sticking it down good and proper, because it's unlikely I'll be upgrading my mat any time soon.
I listened for about 30 mins. The first track I played didn't sound any better. I thought it might be a poor recording so tried some others.
May I recommend that you take care to avoid expectation bias when assessing how well your money is spent. One way to do this is to have someone else play the record a few times behind a screen so you can't see what the configuration is. Another way is to needledrop both configurations and compare via a good DAC, while forgetting which one you are listening to.
Hearing a difference is one thing, but what matters is whether you enjoy the music more in one configuration or another. You need to establish a preference across many records for it to be meaningful. This is the less trodden path, but offers the firmest footing.
By assessing mods in this way you can be sure that your money is not being wasted on imaginary benefits. You can return anything which fails to make a worthwhile improvement and spend the money on records instead.
Hi Nick
The mat came with some sticky white paper discs to 'bond' it onto the platter. I just wasn't sure whether there was any black magic involved in positioning these sticky discs or whether I should just spread them randomly around the under surface of the mat
Thanks
Stratmangler
29-03-2012, 11:50
One way to do this is to have someone else play the record a few times behind a screen so you can't see what the configuration is
Whilst I broadly agree with your post, the above just ain't gonna happen, is it?
:rfl::D
Stratmangler
29-03-2012, 11:52
Hi Nick
The mat came with some sticky white paper discs to 'bond' it onto the platter. I just wasn't sure whether there was any black magic involved in positioning these sticky discs or whether I should just spread them randomly around the under surface of the mat
Thanks
I don't think there's any magic involved - I'd just evenly distribute them under the mat meself :)
May I recommend that you take care to avoid expectation bias when assessing how well your money is spent. One way to do this is to have someone else play the record a few times behind a screen so you can't see what the configuration is. Another way is to needledrop both configurations and compare via a good DAC, while forgetting which one you are listening to.
Hearing a difference is one thing, but what matters is whether you enjoy the music more in one configuration or another. You need to establish a preference across many records for it to be meaningful. This is the less trodden path, but offers the firmest footing.
By assessing mods in this way you can be sure that your money is not being wasted on imaginary benefits. You can return anything which fails to make a worthwhile improvement and spend the money on records instead.
Agreed Richard. I do my best to try and remove this bias but as you know it is virtually impossible to do it 100%
I have in the past auditioned expensive potential upgrades in my home and sent them back as I could hear no real difference.
The way I came to the conclusion yesterday that there probably is a benefit was like this. I listened to a record on the standard deck and knew there was detail missing/smeared as compared to the same track I have on CD.
I listened to the same record again (after mat and feet added) and it sounded more like the CD, ie some of the detail that was 'lost' on the standard deck started to be audible.
Luckily these two mods are easy to take off. So this weekend before I bond the mat I am going to take them on and off and listen to the same record to see whether there really is a difference.
I know this doesn't remove bias as I'm not blinded but its the best I can practically do.
Thanks:)
Beechwoods
29-03-2012, 12:26
Hi Nick
The mat came with some sticky white paper discs to 'bond' it onto the platter. I just wasn't sure whether there was any black magic involved in positioning these sticky discs or whether I should just spread them randomly around the under surface of the mat
Thanks
I made sure they were evenly distributed around the ends, and around the centre. This way, it'll be secured at all points around its inner and outer circumference. If you have any left, fill the area between the inside and outside.
Quick question guys. My deck didn't come with the instructions and I've only just now downloaded them from vinyl engine. The pics don't come out clearly so I'm a little confused about setting the horizontal level with the weight thingy.
Do I raise the arm with the lift and then adjust the counter weight until the arm appears to be 100% horizontal?
Then to adjust the stylus pressure I turn the inner ring to marry up with notch on the counter weight?
Thanks
Sorry some stupid questions about the mat as well.:lol:
I thought those supplied white paper discs were going to be sticky on both sides to fix the mat to the platter. But it looks like they are only sticky on one side. How am I meant to use these to attach the mat to the platter.
Sorry for being so thick:doh:
prestonchipfryer
29-03-2012, 18:55
Quick question guys. My deck didn't come with the instructions and I've only just now downloaded them from vinyl engine. The pics don't come out clearly so I'm a little confused about setting the horizontal level with the weight thingy.
Do I raise the arm with the lift and then adjust the counter weight until the arm appears to be 100% horizontal?
Then to adjust the stylus pressure I turn the inner ring to marry up with notch on the counter weight?
Thanks
This may help you -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hgdyWXUFqA&feature=relmfu
Beechwoods
29-03-2012, 19:25
I found this one really hit the spot. Got me sorted anyway!
7OpNcXSdSj4
The Grand Wazoo
29-03-2012, 19:37
Balancing an arm & setting downforce - this is the second time this question has been asked in just a few days, it sounds to me like this is exactly the sort of thing we need a little piece about in the AoS Library.
Would any of the more experienced members be willing to oblige?
Hi David,
Quick question guys. My deck didn't come with the instructions and I've only just now downloaded them from vinyl engine. The pics don't come out clearly so I'm a little confused about setting the horizontal level with the weight thingy.
Do I raise the arm with the lift and then adjust the counter weight until the arm appears to be 100% horizontal?
Then to adjust the stylus pressure I turn the inner ring to marry up with notch on the counter weight?
Hopefully the vids will have helped you, but if there's anything you're unclear of, let me know. Give me a ring tonight, and we'll go through anything you need to know about setting up your T/T, including the headshell thing.
Sorry I wasn't in when you called last night. I didn't get back as early as I thought I would from visiting a friend in South Wales. I'll be in tonight, though, so speak then! :)
Marco.
Hi Richard,
May I recommend that you take care to avoid expectation bias when assessing how well your money is spent. One way to do this is to have someone else play the record a few times behind a screen so you can't see what the configuration is. Another way is to needledrop both configurations and compare via a good DAC, while forgetting which one you are listening to.
Hearing a difference is one thing, but what matters is whether you enjoy the music more in one configuration or another. You need to establish a preference across many records for it to be meaningful. This is the less trodden path, but offers the firmest footing.
By assessing mods in this way you can be sure that your money is not being wasted on imaginary benefits. You can return anything which fails to make a worthwhile improvement and spend the money on records instead.
Excellent tips, there - especially the bit in bold!
So when are we having this bake-off at yours, dude? We need some proposed dates :cool:
Marco.
Canetoad
30-03-2012, 08:20
Sorry some stupid questions about the mat as well.:lol:
I thought those supplied white paper discs were going to be sticky on both sides to fix the mat to the platter. But it looks like they are only sticky on one side. How am I meant to use these to attach the mat to the platter.
Sorry for being so thick:doh:
It is double sided. It's just very thin. I used a pin to lift the paper. :)
So when are we having this bake-off at yours, dude? We need some proposed dates.
The date and time are in the original post containing the open invitation to a bake-off at my place.
Hi Richard,
Refresh my memory, mate - I don't have time at the moment to trawl through the thread and find it :)
Marco.
Thanks guys the vids were very helpful indeed. As a result I also realised that there are so many other techie related vids that could prove useful in the future.
Great talking to you last night Marco. Very helpful indeed. Sorry if it took a long time for me to understand some things but I was having to keep an eye on my two sons who are always up to something!
So the mission for the weekend is to set up my new cart and headshell (AT 440 and Sumiko). I have downloaded the protractor (not printed yet) from Vinyl engine. Just a couple of quick questions
1) The instructions say
''protractor. Also note that Technics arms do not use baerwald alignment as standard, so you may have to offset the cartridge in the headshell in order to align with arc
What exactly do they mean by 'offset' the cart? I would be adjusting the cart along the length of the headshell anyway to follow the arc. Is 'offset' something different?
2) The instructions say
Without moving the protractor for step 6 place the stylus on the centre of the grid where it crosses the arc. Align the cart so it is parallel with the grid lines by rotating it in the headshell.
Slightly confused by this. Does this mean get the front face of the cart parallel with the vertical lines on the grid and the side face parallel with the horizontal lines? So in other words the cart 'squares' up with the grid lines that are at 90 degrees to each other?
Marco, I know you said to give you a bell if I got stuck but I feel really bad disturbing you at the weekend because I can't understand basic instructions.:doh:
Also I'm saving those phone calls for when I get really stuck!:lol:
Hi David,
Before you go any further, I'd advise you, in order to obtain greatest accuracy, to download an alignment protractor that is based on Stevenson alignment, not Baerwald.
As it says on VE, Technics arms do not use Baerwald alignment. If you use Stevenson, you'll not have to worry about any cartridge offset! ;)
Marco.
Do you mean this one Marco?
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml?page=1
If so, unlike the Baerwald there are no instructions on the vinyl engine page
Thanks again
chris@panteg
31-03-2012, 10:11
Do you mean this one Marco?
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml?page=1
If so, unlike the Baerwald there are no instructions on the vinyl engine page
Thanks again
Hi David
links from the VE won't display on here .
Hi David,
Chris is right, so copy and paste this link into the address bar on your computer: http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml
When the page comes up, scroll down a little, and you'll see where the Stevenson protractor is to download :)
Marco.
Beechwoods
31-03-2012, 10:56
Hi Richard,
Refresh my memory, mate - I don't have time at the moment to trawl through the thread and find it :)
Marco.
Richard, I'm not sure you actually suggested a date earlier, I've checked just in case :)
Lol - I didn't think he had! :)
What Richard actually wrote was:
Let me know when suits you and we'll put a day aside.
Therefore, Robbie and David, when would suit you guys? My free time is reasonably flexible. I'd suggest a Friday or a Saturday, though. So which ones do you guys have free in April? :cool:
Marco.
Thanks guys.
The addy doesn't work even if you copy and paste it, not sure why.
Anyway, I have found what I think is the location of the Stevenson protractor on vinyl engine and have downloaded it. It is on the same page that has all the protractors on it including the baerwald one.
The problem is, for the baerwald arc protractor there are instructions as to how the arcs and grid are used. On the stevenson download there aren't really any clear instructions.
On the download you see a place where the centre hole for the platter is cut and two grids. The accompanying texts talks about setting two null points but no instructions on how I use these grids to set these null points.
Thanks for helping
PS; Saturday would be better for me and I'll check in my diary (ie ask the wife) for some dates
RobbieGong
31-03-2012, 17:51
Yep, Me too, Saturday best AND I'll check dates with wife lol. After the Easter onewards would be good, more advance warning I give the old dear the better ;)
Dinodale
31-03-2012, 20:38
Blast, I would like to live in London Rights now :lol:
Lol - I didn't think he had! :)
What Richard actually wrote was:
Therefore, Robbie and David, when would suit you guys? My free time is reasonably flexible. I'd suggest a Friday or a Saturday, though. So which ones do you guys have free in April? :cool:
Sorry fellas, this is getting out of hand. I was trying to make the point gently that I never invited anyone to a 'bake-off'. Marco, you invited yourself to my place and kindly offered to bring your deck and a bottle of champagne. Like I said, that was an offer I could not refuse. Beyond that I think people were getting ahead of themselves. I don't want to sound unfriendly, but I'm not ready to have a bake-off at my home for the moment.
Sorry fellas, this is getting out of hand. I was trying to make the point gently that I never invited anyone to a 'bake-off'. Marco, you invited yourself to my place and kindly offered to bring your deck and a bottle of champagne. Like I said, that was an offer I could not refuse. Beyond that I think people were getting ahead of themselves. I don't want to sound unfriendly, but I'm not ready to have a bake-off at my home for the moment.
Richard, would April 21st be ok for you? Lets say about 1300hrs for lunch? PM me your address please.:)
Only joking of course.:lol:
I completely understand mate, and I don't think you are being unfriendly at all. :)
Now can anybody help me with how on earth I use the Steven's protractor?:scratch:
David, if no-one jumps in and helps you before then, give me a ring tonight (around 6pm) and I'll sort it out for you :)
Richard, mate, you're too polite - you should've just said bugger orf! :eyebrows: :D
Anyway, I'll PM you and we'll arrange a date between ourselves for sometime in April :cool:
Marco.
RobbieGong
01-04-2012, 08:43
Hi Richard, totally understand. Wasn't looking a bakeoff to be honest but thought it was a chance to meet a fello AOS'er / hifi nut and Marco of course as well as wax lyrical over a drink or two - I also live in London. No worries my man, the Mrs will find something for me to do :eek: :lol:
Thanks Marco. I've just discovered my printer has run out of ink and so can't print it anyway!:doh:
So I might give you a bell tomorrow evening if that's ok? At least then I'll have it in my hand.
Btw, this baerwald vs stevens protractor thing is confusing. On the vinyl engine web page it says the stevens is a general one but the baerwald it lists as specific for the 1200. If it is specific for the 1200 then why is the stevens better?
Thanks again:)
Wakefield Turntables
01-04-2012, 11:31
Go with baerwald;) Several very respected tonearm developers (Rega &SME) have developed the fixed head shells to baerwald alignment (I THINK:eek:). If they have done and time and effort to research it's effects, why should you!!
Hi David,
So I might give you a bell tomorrow evening if that's ok?
I never heard me ring-ring go 'ring, ring'... :)
On the vinyl engine web page it says the stevens is a general one but the baerwald it lists as specific for the 1200. If it is specific for the 1200 then why is the stevens better?
Not in my experience, but you could try it both ways and see which works best! In my experience (and trust me I've experimented LOTS in this area), all Japanese detachable headshell tonearms sound best when set up with Stevenson geometry.
Their requirements in this area are different from the 'normal' tonearms that most people use.
In fact, the Stevenson principle of minimising end of side distortion (where traditionally it is at its worst) makes perfect sense to me - and you can hear the difference this makes when comparing the sonic effect of using both alignment methods!
Also, there's a reason why the little plastic overhang tool, which comes with all new Technics T/Ts, is fixed to work with Stevenson geometry... Clue: it's NOT by accident! ;)
Marco.
Dinodale
03-04-2012, 07:42
Hi Marco,
Does that mean you have to use Stevenson when you want to attach a Sumiko Headshell?
Claus
Hi Claus,
Nope - there's no 'have to' anything about this.
Experience suggests that Stevenson should work better with Jap tonearms (with or without a Sumiko headshell), but as ever with these things, experimenting and tuning by ear is the best way!
I'd try both alignment methods, listen, and then report back what your findings are :)
Marco.
P.S Do you have the little white Technics overhang tool?
Beechwoods
03-04-2012, 07:56
If not, you can buy one here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260959871707
Here's what I'm talking about: http://www.chemical-records.co.uk/sc/servlet/Info?Track=STYALIGN
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4602/technicsoverhangtool1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/technicsoverhangtool1.jpg/)
Technically, this is what you want to achieve:
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3671/technicsoverhangtool.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/technicsoverhangtool.jpg/)
A helpful video:
60mtE8-GmPY
Marco.
If not, you can buy one here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260959871707
That's the very chap, Nick. It's the most painless way of aligning cartridges on a stock Technics tonearm, and surprisingly accurate too, if you use it properly! :)
Marco.
Dinodale
03-04-2012, 08:22
Hi Claus,
Nope - there's no 'have to' anything about this.
Experience suggests that Stevenson should work better with Jap tonearms (with or without a Sumiko headshell), but as ever with these things, experimenting and tuning by ear is the best way!
I'd try both alignment methods, listen, and report back what your findings are :)
Marco.
P.S Do you have the little white Technics overhang tool?
Hi Marco,
Hehe, sure but if you already have "invented the wheel" then there is no need for me to do that too :lol:
I agree 100% with you that we might have a different taste what sound we like but still it is always nice to learn of you guys who have tried much more than me (now I only mean working with TT of course:eyebrows:).
Yes, I do have the overhang tool but can I use that with the Sumiko headshell (Does it have the same size as the standard headshell and does that mean the 52 mm is the same on the Sumiko)?
Btw thanks for your links guys;)
Yes, I do have the overhang tool but can I use that with the Sumiko headshell (Does it have the same size as the standard headshell and does that mean the 52 mm is the same on the Sumiko)?
I can't remember if the Sumiko headshell uses a double 'prong' on the top and bottom of the bayonet housing (to aid rigidity, when fitted inside a tonearm)... If it does, then unfortunately you won't be able to use the overhang tool, as the bottom 'prong' will foul on the plastic housing of the alignment tool.
If the Sumiko just has a single 'prong', like the Technics headshells do (and many others of a similar type), then you're okay-dokey! :)
Marco.
Beechwoods
03-04-2012, 09:06
That's the very chap, Nick. It's the most painless way of aligning cartridges on a stock Technics tonearm, and surprisingly accurate too, if you use it properly! :)
Marco.
Genius tool. Saves all that messing around with protractors, which for a turntable numpty like me = countless saved sleepless nights trying to get the damn thing set up properly!
Saves all that messing around with protractors, which for a turntable numpty like me = countless saved sleepless nights trying to get the damn thing set up properly!
Turntable numpty? You're doing yourself a disservice there, dude. Yoo iz a full-blown super-daftee primo-numpteeeeeeeeee!! :eyebrows:
But you haven't *quite* reached my all-round level of daftness yet.... :D
Marco.
I use a Mint LP Tractor - which many love for the accuracy - when setting up my cartridges and I was curious as to what alignment geometry is used. I contacted the fellow who makes them and he said that for the Technics SL1200 with stock arm he uses Stevenson.
Hi Claus,
Nope - there's no 'have to' anything about this.
Experience suggests that Stevenson should work better with Jap tonearms (with or without a Sumiko headshell), but as ever with these things, experimenting and tuning by ear is the best way!
I'd try both alignment methods, listen, and then report back what your findings are :)
Marco.
P.S Do you have the little white Technics overhang tool?
Hi Ken,
Thanks for that. At least it shows that I'm not entirely deaf! ;)
Marco.
Hi guys
I've had a bit of mare with this (hence no ring ring Marco)
First my printer ran out of ink so I couldn't print the Stevens. Then I managed to buy the wrong ink!
Today I got the right ink and printed it. When I came to fixing the new cart to the Sumiko I realised I've managed to lose one of the fixing bolts!!
I've been dying to hear my new cart and head for a week now and have been scuppered again.
Can anybody tell me what size the sumiko bolts are so I can get some more?
Also my at 440 comes with some screws, washers and funny looking bolts. What are they for?
Thanks again guys
RobbieGong
03-04-2012, 17:38
Hi Ken,
Thanks for that. At least it shows that I'm not entirely deaf! ;)
Marco.
Also Marco, Credit where it's due ( Not suckin up to da guvnor -trust me :lol: ) Basically you pointed out the Stevenson as 'best' in another thread I contributed to for a number of reasons ie: Technics dont use Baerwald and a number of people have found the Stevenson better with certain carts / headshells that just dont make following the Baerwald arc possible, also some do not like the idea of having the cart set at a fair twist / offset in the headshell. This intrigued me (although I have managed to get fairly close to following much of the lengh of the Baerwald arc with cart offset in the stock headshell with 'nice' sonic result). As a result I printed the Stevenson and gave it a go. I maticulously got the stylus / cart to sit parallel at the two points with a very very slight offset. Ok - What I found this time was that things sounded more natural to my ears. I have also noticed a few very interesting things. - Recordings now have an individualness to them, which makes total sense - not all recordings are the same. Good ones sound very good and natural, bad ones sound bad because that's what they are I guess. The 'chacteristics' of recordings also shines through more clearly to me now. ie; Trebley / bright or bass heavy / bass light recordings will sound as such. Samely if the recording is a bit peaky and not so calm sounding then that shows too. Bass lines are definately more tuneful. In a nut shell I think because the stylus is running more true and accurately across the record, the stylus therefore presents more true. This has also made my system more revealing in so much as although things sound 'good' I detect a graininess at times to the presentation due to 'weaker areas' being exposed. The graininess has been expressed by a number of us as an inherant characteristic within the stock Techie. Some say due to the shortcomings of maybe the stock arm, mat and platter of which I retain all on my MK5g. I know I can do better than the base Timestep too. It's been said that it's as if a layer has been removed when a 'good' psu is on board - Hope I'm making sense :)
If anybody might be able to tell me the size of the sumiko headshell bolt I'd really appreciate it. I might then be able to get it set up over the weekend.
Many thanks
Right, I've managed to source a nut that will replace the Sumiko one I lost! So this means I can actually mount my new head and cart tomorrow:eyebrows:
Can anybody please please tell me how I use the Steven's protractor so I don't have to disturb poor Marco over the weekend:)
Stratmangler
05-04-2012, 19:21
SJelRnSv1Kk
David, Is the Stevenson protractor you've printed out a "two-point protractor" like the one shown in the video Chris has posted, or is it an "arc protractor"? If the latter, then the process is a bit different than that shown in the video.
Basically, you are trying to set two parameters - overhang and offset. With the two-point protractor, you are setting these two simultaneously, whereas with the arc protractor they are set independently.
For the arc protractor:
Make a 'wedge' from a bit of folded-up paper and use it to jam the platter - you need to ensure that the platter can't rotate (especially anti-clockwise)
Place an old record on the platter and place the protractor on the record - the spindle goes through the hole in the protractor
WITH THE STYLUS GUARD IN PLACE OR THE STYLUS REMOVED - Attach the cartridge to the headshell but don't do the screws up too tight - you want to be able to slide the cartridge forwards and backwards, but also for the position of the cartridge to 'stay put'. Fit the headshell to the arm and slide the catridge about 2/3rds of the way along the headshell slots
Set the anti-skate to zero, and fit the stylus/remove the guard.
Balance the arm and set the down-force to the recommended value
With the arm lift in the 'raised' position, move the arm over the protractor and move the protractor until the arc passes directly below the stylus.
Now try lowering the arm at various positions along the arc - if the stylus doesn't lie exactly on the arc, try moving the cartridge a bit further forward or backwards in the slots, reposition the protractor and try again. You will eventually find a position where the stylus hits the arc exactly at every point on the arc. ONCE YOU HAVE FOUND THAT POSITION, DO NOT MOVE THE PROTRACTOR AGAIN. You have now set the overhang.
Now lower the stylus onto the innermost of the two points marked on the protractor. Look along the cantilever and check it lies along the centre line marked in the grid around the inner point - you can also use the grid lines to see if the cartridge body is 'square' to the grid, but you are really most interested in getting the cantilever aligned along the centre line.
If the cantilever doesn't line up with the centre line, 'twist' the cartrige in the headshell - BUT TRY NOT TO MOVE THE STYLUS FURTHER FORWARD OR BACKWARDS - you don't want to change the overhang here, just the offset angle. Once you are satisfied, try placing the stylus on the outermost of the two marked points - it should automatically be lined up with the cantilever over the centre line - if it isn't, then the overhang has been moved - in which case, you need to start all over again.
Now 'nip up' the nuts and bolts (don't overtighten'), rebalance the arm and set the down-force
Set the anti-skate and you're done :)
I can't remember if the Sumiko headshell uses a double 'prong' on the top and bottom of the bayonet housing (to aid rigidity, when fitted inside a tonearm)... If it does, then unfortunately you won't be able to use the overhang tool, as the bottom 'prong' will foul on the plastic housing of the alignment tool.
If the Sumiko just has a single 'prong', like the Technics headshells do (and many others of a similar type), then you're okay-dokey! :)
Marco.
You could do what i did when i had the stock arm and take a hacksaw blade to the top then it fits a treat.
If you use the mint protractor for the standard arm it measures a i.5mm difference from the allignment tool!!
I found the mint protractor to be great until i dropped the bloody thing on the floor:doh:
Thanks Chris and Keith:)
It's the Steven's 2 point protractor that I've downloaded, there was no Steven's arc protractor on vinyl engine. I presume I've downloaded the correct one?
It seems to make perfect sense now that I've seen the video, sorry but wasn't quite so obvious before.
I'll give it a go first thing in the morning as I've had a few beers:cool::cool:
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