Jörgen Schou step-up transformers Type 0,32M NO. 41 for Ortofon SPU [Archive]

Marco

17-03-2012, 18:15

Hi Guys,

I just have to share my joy at having just won these superb step-up transformers, for my SPU cartridge, on eBay! :yay: :dance:

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8345/jsstepups.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/jsstepups.jpg/)

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8393/jstrannies.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/jstrannies.jpg/)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-JS-Jorgen-Schou-step-up-transformers-Type-0-32M-NO-41-Ortofon-SPU-/110837625315?_trksid=m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7067395694711109678&autorefresh=true

Yes they are super-rare (especially when fully tested/working and in this kind of condition), and yes, I paid rather more than I wanted, but I just simply *had* to have them!!

Why? Well, quite simply they are stunningly AWESOME and bring out the unique sonic qualities of the SPU more than any other transformers I've ever heard :wow: :eek:

And yes "heard" is the key word, because the seller, Richard, who posts as 'Sonddek', and is a member both here (and mainly on pfm), loaned me them during the duration of the auction, so I've been listening to them in my system for a week, and been utterly gobsmacked at just how special these vintage transformers are!

Top man, Richard :youtheman:

Yup, that's why I bidded so high to win them, and quite frankly because they piss all over the £1000 Ortofon ST-80SE, below:

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/6143/st80secontentimage.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/576/st80secontentimage.jpg/)

...which I've also listening to for the last few days (on loan from a dealer). The JS Jorgen Schous, sonically, utterly annihilate the Ortofon, which is none too shabby, but just not in the same league. And that's even BEFORE I re-box them into something, she we say, rather more 'audiophile friendly' (the nicest enclosure I can find fitted with proper phono sockets) :eyebrows:

Therefore, £908 was a bargain. Think in terms of £2000 worth of sonic performance, stuck inside a (rather quaint) old tobacco tin!!! :D

Anyway, now they're mine, I'm off to enjoy the properly! :cool:

Laters,
Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

17-03-2012, 18:22

Hmmm they should do the job nicely.
....and anyway, the Ortofon's enclosures always remind me of little baked bean tins with the labels removed!

Nice job, well done.

Reid Malenfant

17-03-2012, 18:26

I'm guessing that there are plans afoot to recable them with something special already brewing :D

Marco

17-03-2012, 18:59

Cheers, chaps!

Mark, you'd be guessing right, mate... Who does the nicest enclosures you know of, suitable for this type of application?

I'm looking for something that's heavy (so that it won't move when quality cables and plugs are attached to it), with a nice thick aluminium front panel. The box itself must also be non-ferrous/non-magnetic.

Any suggestions, with links to relevant products, would be welcome! :cool:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

17-03-2012, 19:04

You'll need to take a look on here Marco (http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/index_l2.php). Apologies as there are quite a few :eyebrows:

All there stuff is sent via registered mail & if I remember correctly a certain rather good to say the least valve phono stage is inside one of the enclosures from this place.

10mm thick alloy front panels are not a problem, as well as all aluminium enclosures :)

The Grand Wazoo

17-03-2012, 19:05

I don't reckon you can beat the design John Chapman used on my Bent Audio Mu's, Marco.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/780/imgp1683.jpg

1/4" thick Mu-metal cylinders, wrap the tranny cans in sorbothane, short captive leads to go to the preamp, an earth post & some binding posts for loading resistors, should you ever need them.

Reid Malenfant

17-03-2012, 19:13

First one here looks damn near perfect (http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat138_l2.php?n=1) :)

Marco

17-03-2012, 19:23

Yup - you mean the smaller one, shown here:

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/337/galaxyenclosure.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/galaxyenclosure.jpg/)

:)

Marco.

P.S Chris, the Bents are true classics!

Reid Malenfant

17-03-2012, 19:31

Or similar yes, there are soooo many to choose from on that site :lol:

Marco

17-03-2012, 19:49

Jeez, I understand Italian, but that site is *so* bloody confusing! :doh:

Have you negotiated around that site before, Mark? Perhaps you could do me a big favour and select the nicest box that you think will do the job, with a 10mm front panel, and post a link here to that exact product, so I can just simply order it.

That place is giving me a bloody headache! :D

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

17-03-2012, 19:54

Do you want a silver anodized 10mm front panel, or a black one?

I don't speak Italian by the way, though I do seem to remember that if you click on the Union jack.... :eyebrows:

Marco

17-03-2012, 19:57

Hahaha... Erm, yes! Just call me a daftee... :mental: :doh:

:D :D

Can you get a 10mm black anodised panel and a black enclosure? I quite like all-black stuff - keep it mean and purposeful looking!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

17-03-2012, 20:10

In that case (pardon the pun :eyebrows:) I'll make it simple... Look at my post 7 again. The case is 124mm wide & 73mm or so from front to back, with a depth of 1U or 40mm. Should be plenty big enough. Sides look to be 10mm thick to, back panel is 3mm & the top & bottom panels are 2mm. Everything is aluminium apart from the screws holding it together :) It'll look like the case at the top, but maybe a slightly different shape & with a black anodized front panel.

Now if you look at this post you'll see the first one down has a silver 10mm alloy front panel, scroll down to the second & you have the same case but a black anodized 10mm front panel. Below that the cases get bigger.

Here you go to post 7 (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=308186&postcount=7)

Marco

17-03-2012, 20:21

Lol... Humour me please and just give me the relevant link from the site, so I can just click on that and order the right case (or give me the product code) - churz! :cool:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

17-03-2012, 20:31

I would do, but I got the same picture as you posted earlier :doh:

Just scroll down to the second one that says "Galaxy GX143 124 x 73 x 40 mm" & hit the basket sign :D Do it here (http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat138_l2.php?n=1) :cool:

I can't do any better than that, sorry :) You'll then no doubt have to fill in all sorts of gubbins with regards to email etc for payment. They must accept paypal as I seem to remember that's how I payed for mine..

Trust me, if I can (& have done it), I know you can :D

Marco

17-03-2012, 20:36

Nice one, dude. I think I'll nail it from there! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

17-03-2012, 20:39

F*ck... Only problem is that "Galaxy GX143 124 x 73 x 40 mm" has a "1x frontal in aluminum 10mm oxidized silver".

I want oxidised BLACK.... :rolleyes:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

17-03-2012, 20:44

That's why I said scroll to the second one with the same part number as the front panel is black ;)

keiths

17-03-2012, 20:44

Marco, I think the second one down on the page Mark has linked is the one in black - model code 1NGXA143N (I assume the 'N' stands for whatever 'black' is in Italian?)

Marco

17-03-2012, 20:59

Nero, yup - ta! :)

Marco.

Marco

18-03-2012, 07:34

Sorted, so Mark and Keith, thanks for your help :)

Now to get some quality wire and plugs fitted! As far as plugs are concerned, at the input end I'm going to use WBT 0210Ags:

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9551/wbt0210agl.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/wbt0210agl.gif/)

The output end I'd like to keep hard-wired, but I want to use some nice cable, specially designed for maintaining the integrity of the 'delicate' analogue signal, so I presume that something shielded would be best?

Any recommendations for some *really* good cable (it could be solid-silver, but not necessarily), and not stupidly expensive - perhaps something that fits the bill but doesn't come from a 'prestige manufacturer'?

I only need a half-metre pair, and they will be terminiated with my favourite phono plugs, WBT 0102Ag:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4369/wbt0102agl.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/wbt0102agl.gif/)

I was also thinking of lining the enclosure (and/or the transformers) with Mu metal... Where does one obtain such a thing, and do you buy it in sheets, and also can you get cans to go over the transformers?

Marco.

tubehunter

18-03-2012, 08:22

copper

bespoke

Marco

18-03-2012, 08:27

Lol - care to expand on that, mate? :)

Marco.

Marco

18-03-2012, 08:51

Ah, are you saying that you could make me some bespoke copper cans for the job?

Count me in! :)

Marco.

Artifolk

18-03-2012, 09:00

I was also thinking of lining the enclosure (and/or the transformers) with Mu metal... Where does one obtain such a thing, and do you buy it in sheets, and also can you get cans to go over the transformers?

Marco.

This may be of some use...http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultraperm-80-Metal-Shield-MuMetal-Mu-Metal-Sheet-Audio-/160596036375

Also... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/169818-need-source-mu-metal-cans.html

Marco

18-03-2012, 10:19

Nice one, Charles! I'll use the Mu metal sheets to line the enclosure with, but I quite fancy getting Duncan to make me some bespoke cans, made from solid copper, to go over the transformers.

It's turning out to be a rather interesting little project! :)

Marco.

sq225917

18-03-2012, 10:38

You're unlikely to find mu-metal covers anywhere as it's not a metal you can work easily without losing all its beneficial properties. So best best is probably a steel or alloy 'can' that you can fit with a self adhesive mu-metal shield. Though in reality distance is your friend, just keep it more than a couple of feet away from any large transformers and you'll be fine.

I had a mu-metal cover made to go over the Valhalla inside my old lp12, placing the Valhalla in a separate box away from the deck made far more measurable difference.

Marco

18-03-2012, 11:22

You're unlikely to find mu-metal covers anywhere as it's not a metal you can work easily without losing all its beneficial properties. So best best is probably a steel or alloy 'can' that you can fit with a self adhesive mu-metal shield.

Yup, which seems to be what this stuff is:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultraperm-80-Metal-Shield-MuMetal-Mu-Metal-Sheet-Audio-/160596036375?clk_rvr_id=324821573558&afsrc=1

As I said, I think what I'll do is line the enclosure with the above and get Dunc to to make me some bespoke solid copper cans, to go over the transformers.

Do you think that there would be any mileage in also covering the copper cans with the adhesive Mu-metal sheeting? :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn

18-03-2012, 12:08

Looks interesting Marco.

Regards D S D L

Artifolk

18-03-2012, 12:12

pure sound

18-03-2012, 14:11

An interesting choice Marco. I fitted a set of those into an ABS box for a friend not long ago.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/JorgenSchouNo41small.jpg

They do seem to have been quite a high price though, how would you feel they compared with the HM7's? Those must be a similar sort of price and on their 1:40 setting they should offer an interesting alternative.

I tried them with the Io and the SPU I have here as well as a couple of other MC's. I quite liked them feeling they were certainly on a par with some of the other studio trannies from the likes of Altec & UTC. (4722 & A12)

I did think that 1:120 was a bit excessive for the SPU (it's excessive even for the Io!). I feel the SPU is happier seeing 30-40 ohms rather than 3 ohms.

I think the lamination materials available nowadays to transformer winders do offer the potential for exceptional designs which weren't perhaps possible 40-50 years ago.

MartinT

18-03-2012, 16:32

sq225917

18-03-2012, 17:34

Do you think that there would be any mileage in also covering the copper cans with the adhesive Mu-metal sheeting? :)

Marco.

Probably not, unless you are thinking of putting them somewhere stupid like within 2 feet of your power amp.

Marco

18-03-2012, 18:24

Nope, that's not likely. But I might just do it anyway, for the hell of it, as I'll likely have some off-cuts left over from the sheet(s) I'm buying . Nothing wrong with a bit of 'over-engineering'! :)

Marco.

Ali Tait

18-03-2012, 19:00

Jimmy Choo step ups eh? Very upmarket Marco! :lol:

Marco

18-03-2012, 19:49

Cheers for the comments, guys. They really are rather good!

An interesting choice Marco. I fitted a set of those into an ABS box for a friend not long ago.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/JorgenSchouNo41small.jpg

Nice one, Guy. I didn't realise you'd tried them - otherwise I'd have asked for your opinion! Those ones above also look in pretty good nick.

They do seem to have been quite a high price though...

Oh absolutely. There is no way whatsoever that I'd have bidded so high though, had I not enjoyed the opportunity of listening to them first extensively in my own system.

I contacted the seller (who had invited potential buyers to have a listen to the transformers at his place, prior to bidding on them), with a view to arranging that, and had asked him when was suitable. Even though the transformers were in London, I was suitably intrigued (after having done some research on the JS units), to take my T/T (with SPU), Croft preamp and existing A23 SUT, down there to hear what the they sounded like with them.

When the seller noticed my eBay handle 'artofsound102', he obviously knew of the forum. He asked who I was, and I told him. He told me that he was Richard (Sonndek), and that he posts on some of the forums. I recognised his name, from pfm and here, and he gave me his phone number. I was quite willing to go down to his place and have a listen, but he kindly offered to send the transformers to me, as long as I returned them before the auction ended, if I didn't want them or win them.

That was great, as I had them then for four and a half days to listen to, during which an Ortofon ST80SE arrived, on loan from a dealer, which allowed me not only to hear the JS transformers properly in my system, but compare them to something 'serious' of current production. The ST80SE is very good, but it doesn't have the exquisite tone, musical texture, gloriously 'liquid' midrange and limitless high-frequency resolution (in my system), of the JS SUTs.

How would you feel they compared with the HM7's?

Dunno, as I haven't done the comparison properly yet. Once I've re-cased them into something a little more respectable, then I'll take them down to Martin's for a play. I heard the HM7s with my SPU at Scalford, and they were excellent.

I'm not sure that the JS transformers will be as good with Martin's Shelter 5000, but they do match the SPU exceptionally well, or rather, more accurately, they form an exceptionally synergistic partnership with the SPU, in conjunction with the valve MM phono stage in my Croft preamp :)

Those must be a similar sort of price and on their 1:40 setting they should offer an interesting alternative.

Yup, I'm looking forward to listening to the results in his system, as it's a reliable and known reference. There are only two systems, other than my own, which I trust as reference points, in order to evaluate equipment I'm interested in, and that's Martin's and Ian Walker's. They both have the necessary resolution, in order for one to hear properly what's going on.

I tried them with the Io and the SPU I have here as well as a couple of other MC's. I quite liked them feeling they were certainly on a par with some of the other studio trannies from the likes of Altec & UTC. (4722 & A12)

Nice one. I guess that results will very much depend on the characteristics of the partnering phono stage, and of course those of the rest of the system.

I did think that 1:120 was a bit excessive for the SPU (it's excessive even for the Io!). I feel the SPU is happier seeing 30-40 ohms rather than 3 ohms.

I think that much depends on the gain structure of the partnering preamp. Dunno about 30-40 Ohms, for an SPU - I normally prefer <10 Ohms. I also like having the same listening level on the volume control of my preamp, with vinyl, as I do with CD - and the JS SUTs provide sufficient gain in order for me to do that. I hate it when you have to crank the volume up much more when listening to vinyl, in order to reach the same listening levels, as you do with CD. In that respect, I prefer parity.

I think the lamination materials available nowadays to transformer winders do offer the potential for exceptional designs which weren't perhaps possible 40-50 years ago.

Possibly (the key is perhaps in the word "potential"), but in terms of ultimate fildelty, it's not what I heard when I compared the JS SUTs with the brand new £1000 Ortofon ST80SE, which had supposedly been 'optimised' for use with the SPU. In that respect, having now looked into things in a bit more detail, I suspect somewhat surprisingly that their (less costly) Verto on <10 Ohm, gain 1kHz: 30dB mode (note Ortofon's chosen impedance setting), would be a better match for an SPU.

I love Martin's Hashimotos, which are undoubtedly a class act, but I suspect that in some ways vintage transformers are rather like vintage valve microphones, in that there's a 'wide-open' quality, richness of tone (not bloom or warmth) and naturalness, which one gets with the best vintage transformer designs, that isn't quite equalled by their modern counterparts. These perhaps excel more in other areas.

I hear the same thing with good vintage cartridges, in comparison with modern designs - and that 'richness of tone'/naturalness, and in essence, 'musicality', is very important in terms of how I like recorded music to be reproduced :cool:

I detest anything that sounds too 'hi-fi' (read as superficially 'impressive', but ultimately not representative of how real, live and un-amplified, music actually sounds).

Marco.

Marco

18-03-2012, 20:25

Nice find, Marco. I've never heard of those step-ups but it sounds like they're cutting the audio mustard. Love the tobacco tin!

Guess we'll need that bake-off in late April to hear them against the HM-7s.

Thanks, matey. The tobacco tin is rather fun. It'll be removed, however, along with the 'vintage phono cables', when I house the transformers properly, although I'll keep both for historical value.

Yup, I'm looking forward to having a sesh at your place again, as it's always fun. I'll get the PH regulator mods fitted to my T/T first, which is imminent, and give you a shout when that's been done :cool:

Marco.

BTH K10A

18-03-2012, 20:29

I can certainly vouch for the quality of the JS SUT's. I bought my pair as singles. After finding the first one it took 18 months to find it's companion. I never got a look in on epay as the eastern market was so strong. I used them for a couple of years with an SPUGE and a TSD15 mounted in ans ADC headhell. I then discovered the Haufe T42 and found I preferred them to the JS, particuarly with the TSD. The JS's went on epay and, bearing in mind this was six or seven years ago went for way more than these cost. So maybe not as expensive as they ould have been.

One of the pair I bought had the original purchase receipt from 1959 and the JS cost £2 7s 6d. I've still got the receipt somewhere.

After bending the cantilever of the TSD I sold the T42's which fetched about 20% of the money I got for the JS SUT's which indicates how sought after they are.

On the subject of shielding. The cans are mu metal and as long as theey are not mounted near a big mains transformer adding any more shielding won't make much of a difference sonically but might look more asthetically pleasing. I quite like the old tobacco tin approach and certainly prefer the cans exposed but that's just me.

Marco

18-03-2012, 22:02

Hi Andy,

I can certainly vouch for the quality of the JS SUT's. I bought my pair as singles. After finding the first one it took 18 months to find it's companion.

Now *that* is dedication for you! :respect:

Before I noticed a thread about the JS SUTs on pfm, I'd never even heard of them. However, that quickly changed after I'd done some research, which is when I realised just how special and sought after they are amongst experienced SPU users :eek:

I never got a look in on epay as the eastern market was so strong. I used them for a couple of years with an SPUGE and a TSD15 mounted in ans ADC headhell. I then discovered the Haufe T42 and found I preferred them to the JS, particuarly with the TSD.

Interesting... I believe that Haufe transformers (not sure if they are T42s or not) are used in the Auditorium 23 SUTs, which I've used extensively.

I loved them, but in my system, with the SPU Classic GM(E), the JS SUTs are at another level, sounding more 'alive' and extended at the top end (in fact, their openness and clarity here is quite exceptional), are also more communicative in the midrange, and have a tighter, but notably more extended bass.

Both SUTs, however, have that beguiling 'vintage tonality', which makes listening to vinyl come alive and sound so alluring and seriously addictive.

The JS's went on epay and, bearing in mind this was six or seven years ago went for way more than these cost.

Such as, if you don't mind me asking?

One of the pair I bought had the original purchase receipt from 1959 and the JS cost £2 7s 6d. I've still got the receipt somewhere.

Bloody hell, that's a tad less than I paid for them! Still the nice thing about quality (and rare) vintage gear is that it generally holds its value, rather than depreciates rapidly, like brand new kit does. Therefore, I suppose that I also now own a bit of an investment!

After bending the cantilever of the TSD I sold the T42's which fetched about 20% of the money I got for the JS SUT's which indicates how sought after they are.

Lol... But then, I wouldn't have put the Haufes in the same league, sonically. Perhaps it was simply a synergy thing in your system? :)

On the subject of shielding. The cans are mu metal and as long as theey are not mounted near a big mains transformer adding any more shielding won't make much of a difference sonically but might look more asthetically pleasing.

Noted, but as I said, there will likely be some off-cuts left from the Mu metal sheets I buy, so I guess that I might as well use it up...

I quite like the old tobacco tin approach and certainly prefer the cans exposed but that's just me.

I don't mind the old tobacco tin, but I suspect that it might be a bit of a bitch fitting the WBTs to it! ;)

I guess that I could expose the transformer cans, by putting some cut-outs into the top of the enclosures I'm getting from Italy? Mmm... Might be nice with the bespoke copper 'shielding' cans around them, particularly as it would be a cool looking contrast against the black anodised finish of the casing... I think you've given me an idea!

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

18-03-2012, 22:09

I don't mind the old tobacco tin, but I suspect that it might be a bit of a bitch fitting the WBTs to it! ;)

Marco.
I'd buy that for a Dollar, if it was full of tobacco that is :D

Marco

18-03-2012, 22:12

Lol - I'll send it down to you, dude, with something nice and spicy in it, if ya gets me? :peace:

;)

Marco.

chris@panteg

18-03-2012, 22:40

Nice find Marco , very interesting and a history behind it .

Shame your losing the tobacco tin , I rather like that , the soldering looks top class too , I wonder who the original owner was ? I'll take a stab at Ted Heath or some famous conductor maybe ?

Marco

18-03-2012, 22:55

Hi Chris,

Cheers, mate. The soldering (and obssessive attention to earthing) is first-rate.

However, at the moment (not shown in the pic from eBay) is a rather 'Heath Robinson' arrangement, consisting at one of the heavy-duty phono plugs of my tonearm cable being connected to some dangling phono sockets, soldered to some dodgy thin wire, and at the other end exists some VERY basic looking 'vintage phono leads'...

I want to replace all that with some proper RCA sockets, plugs and cable, as although the JS SUTs sound amazing, underneath it I can still hear what the above is doing, and so know that there is even more to come when those areas are modernised and upgraded :)

I know who the two famous ex-owners are, but I've been sworn to secrecy! Let's just say that one of them is VERY famous indeed ;)

Marco.

BTH K10A

18-03-2012, 23:01

Hi Marco

It seems that the JS SUT's were sold with the mono arms & cartridges and very few in stereo pairs as most people opted for the GT version of the SPU. Also most have been snapped up by the far east cogniscenti long ago. They are not easy to find in the UK. Ortofon replaced them with the type 2 - 15k stereo SUT unit (still have one of those for my early SL15TE) which was basically the trasformers that were used in the SPUGTE headshell and the S15TE (have one of those too) :D

The T42's are not the same as those in the Auditorium 23. See link for some info. http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Klangfilm/MCPre/MCPreSieMounted.htm They are a near perfect match for EMT & SPU cartridges.
These are my T42's I aquired to replace those I sold although These may go to offset the cost of a new set of output valves for my new (old) amps
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1411.jpg

My pair of JS SUT's sold for just over £1.6k. The eastern market was very strong then and the price was driven up by two bidders.

Don't forget that Haufe made probaly the best SUT ever in the one used in the Neumann WV2. If you think the JS ones were pricey you should see what a T42 SUT fetches.:eek: EMT used Haufe transformers too and, for the TSD cartridge, changing to the T42's highlighted a very slight stifling of the dynamics by the JS SUT's.

If you are going to use mu metal sheets cut it to fit. It doesn't like anything other than gentle curves or it can lose it's properties.

In my experience, keeping the distance between cartridge and SUT/phonostage as short as possible does brings the greatest benefits

Oh yes, If you don't want the tobacco tin, I'll have it. :D

Reid Malenfant

18-03-2012, 23:13

Marco, you have the perfect opportunity here to go for a balanced input, which should reduce noise & hum & still have a single ended output.

Just thought about it. You'd probably need a new cable from the deck to the SUT, maybe a custom one... But imho at the output voltages of the SPU that increase in common mode rejection would be more than worthwhile.

You'd need XLR inputs, but could feed a single ended phono output.

Marco

18-03-2012, 23:18

Hi Mark,

That's a very interesting thought, which I'll explore and comment on more later! Andy, some very interesting info there, too - particularly what your JS transformers sold for!! :eek:

Bet you did a merry little jig on the lawn after that auction ended... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Barry

18-03-2012, 23:34

Congratulations on your newly acquired purchase Marco.

I’m sure you know that Jörgen Schou are a Danish company and made the inbuilt transformers for the original SPU, the ST-15 and for the “kabelübertrager” used with the SL-15 (the latter of which I loaned to you some time ago for you to try).

The ones you have bought do look to be in excellent condition, unlike many of the ratty-looking samples that appear on eBay. I have to disagree on the quality of the soldering, but you will be re-housing them and fitting better leads and connectors.

There are many JS transformers that are sold as being suitable for use with the SPU, with voltage step-up ratios varying from 10:1, to yours at 120:1. At first sight, I have to confess, I didn’t think this was a particularly good choice, for reasons I will outline.

Taking into account the resistance of both the primary and secondary windings, your transformer will present a reflected load of 6.15Ω, when the secondary is loaded by the 47kΩ of your preamp. Now the source resistance of your SPU GME is 6Ω, and Ortofon recommend a load of > 10Ω. But no matter, because the effective load is similar to the source impedance, the two will form a voltage divider and the output voltage (at 5cm/s) of 0.2mV from the cartridge will be reduced to 0.098mV. This will then be boosted by 120x to produce a more than healthy 11.85mV into your preamp.

There is also the concern that with transformers having a high step ratio (and thus high leakage inductance), the transformer secondary can be extremely sensitive to the capacitance of the load to which it feeds (Miller effect). At worse it can actually produce a resonance in the upper treble.

But all of this is theoretical and the “proof of the pudding is in the listening”; which you have done and it would seem has passed with flying colours.

Regarding additional (copper) screening - frankly I wouldn’t bother. The mu-metal of the can is there ostensibly to screen against magnetic fields, but is a sufficiently good conductor for it to act as an electrostatic shield. Likewise I wouldn’t go to too much trouble applying mu-metal lining to the new enclosure. The magnetic properties of mu-metal are severely reduced, if not destroyed, close to where it has been cut with tin-snips as well as by being bent too sharply to fit into corners.

Suitable cables? Any good quality screened cable, having a low resistance and a low capacitance per unit length will do. If it has an additional electrostatic screen, to eliminate triboloelectric effects, then so much the better. Any good microphone cable should do. How about mine? I made some up for you; and at the time they were well received.

Regards

pure sound

19-03-2012, 10:06

Interesting comments Barry. After some experimentation I (& my friend) found the 1:120 units somewhat 'shouty' and forward. I think he sold them to someone in the far east.

I understood that one of the most sought after varieties was 0,32M 6717 as below. These are hen's teeth though. I'm not sure what ratio they had.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/JS6717.jpg

Marco

19-03-2012, 10:20

Interesting comments Barry. After some experimentation I (& my friend) found the 1:120 units somewhat 'shouty' and forward.

It'll be a system synergy thing, Guy, particularly I suspect, in terms of the phono stage and preamp used.

The Croft has a very lucid, musically enticing and 'unforced' sound (the partial result I suspect of it using NOS 1940s and 50s 6SL7s 'octal' tubes, as opposed to IME, rather shouty-sounding current production small signal valves, like ECC83s, and such like, commonly found in modern tube preamps), which marries very well with the vivid clarity and 'open window' effect of the Schous. They certainly sound nothing like you describe in my system. Shouty and forward is definitely one thing that I couldn't live with! :nono:

One other consideration, in terms of our rather diametrically opposed views of the 1:120 Schou SUTs, is the possibility of sample variation - we are after all talking about 50+ year old transformers... No way are they all going to sound the same, even if they have supposedly the same specs! ;)

I understood that one of the most sought after varieties was 0,32M 6717 as below. These are hen's teeth though. I'm not sure what ratio they had.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/JS6717.jpg

Interesting that there are a few of the little buggers around... I think that I might start a Jörgen Schou fan club! :D

Barry, I'll get to your post shortly, matey :cool:

Marco.

pure sound

19-03-2012, 10:21

I think that much depends on the gain structure of the partnering preamp. Dunno about 30-40 Ohms, for an SPU - I normally prefer <10 Ohms. I also like having the same listening level on the volume control of my preamp, with vinyl, as I do with CD - and the JS SUTs provide sufficient gain in order for me to do that. I hate it when you have to crank the volume up much more when listening to vinyl, in order to reach the same listening levels, as you do with CD. In that respect, I prefer parity.

Possibly (the key is perhaps in the word "potential"), but in terms of ultimate fildelty, it's not what I heard when I compared the JS SUTs with the brand new £1000 Ortofon ST80SE, which had supposedly been 'optimised' for use with the SPU. In that respect, having now looked into things in a bit more detail, I suspect somewhat surprisingly that their (less costly) Verto on <10 Ohm, gain 1kHz: 30dB mode (note Ortofon's chosen impedance setting), would be a better match for an SPU.

Marco.

If the Verto transformer applies 30 dB of gain, then into a typical 47Kohm MM input it will be showing the cartridge closer to 50 ohms not 10 ohms.

When you say that you've been preferring <10 ohms, where are you getting that figure from? How do you know it actually is 10 ohms other than what is printed on it? It implies a transformer with a ratio of around 1:69 (37dB) and there are very few transformers about with that high a ratio.

Marco

19-03-2012, 10:30

How do you know it actually is 10 ohms other than what is printed on it?

Short answer: I don't. I was just under that impression from what I'd read from some of the specs, and on how some SUTs I've used appear to operate. Seems like I'm wrong. Anyway, all that matters is that the Schous sound amazing with my SPU. When Stratmangler (Chris) visits shortly, we'll be doing some needledrops, so you can have a listen then and see what you think :)

Incidentally, in terms of gain (and step-up ratios), the Ortofon ST80SE doesn't provide the optimal amount (the way I like it, as described) in my system, sounding distinctly lacklustre and shut-in, in comparison to the Schous. In that respect, the JS SUTs optimise things perfectly.

Here are some specs for the ST80SE:

Recommended cartridge impedance < 10 Ohm
Gain 27 dB at 1kHz
Freqency response 10 Hz - 100 kHz (-2,5dB +0,5dB)
Trafo output loading 47 kOhm // 200 pF.

Specs for the Verto (Configuration B technical data):

•Recomended cartridge impedance: < 10 Ohm
•Gain 1kHz: 30 dB
•Freq response: 10 Hz - 80 kHz ± 1 dB
•Output loading: 47 kOhm / 200 pF

I note that the Verto, on 'Configuration B' mode (above), provides an extra 3db of gain (30db, as opposed to the 27db of the ST80SE). I suspect that with the Croft this could be crucial, as it's not super-high gain, like current production Crofts appear to be, and many other modern preamps, from what I've heard, where one has very little adjustment over the volume control, particularly when using high-output digital sources.

What would you conclude from those specs, and also from the results I've heard with both the ST80SE (which notionally should optimise an SPU, but in practice doesn't) and the JS SUTs that I have?

Marco.

pure sound

19-03-2012, 12:04

From an advert for the Verto currently on ebay

Technical data Configuration A:

Recommended cartridge impedance: 5-50 Ohm
Gain 24dB at 1kHz
Frequency response 10 Hz - 100 kHz ± 1 dB

Technical data Configuration B:

Recommended cartridge impedance < 10 Ohm
Gain 30dB at 1kHz
Frequency response 10 Hz - 80 kHz ± 1 dB

With 24 dB of gain when loaded by 47Kohms the Verto is actually showing the cartridge more like 187 ohms or thereabouts. They are recommending it be used with a cartridge with a source impedance of <10 ohms (which the SPU certainly is) on the 30dB setting which shows the cartridge ~50 ohms.

I've always found the SPU to be happiest into 30-40 ohms ie a ratio of about 1:36 (31 dB). Obviously the way the transformer is wound and the core material used also affects the result. Two 1:36 transformers from different makers probably wouldn't sound alike despite presenting an ostensibly similar load to the cartridge.

To compare the JS with the Verto you must need to be making a substantial adjustment to the volume to get matched levels.

I look forward to the Needledrops!

Marco

19-03-2012, 12:25

alfie2902

19-03-2012, 12:33

I was watching this pair of JS transformers on ebay, Marco, but didn't bid as these were ones I was told didn't suit the SPU so very well. :scratch:

So, I'm interested that you're getting such good results from them. I suspect the Wammer I had a PM chat with about JS SUT's is the same chap Guy listened with, as he recommended the same Type. 0.32M's No: 6717's to me & also said the No.41's had to much gain.

It's interesting what you are finding & I will have a listen to the needle drops later. I'm still using the Altec Peerless 4722's with my SPU, which seem to work very well, but was looking towards the HM7's.

alfie2902

19-03-2012, 12:37

Taking into account the resistance of both the primary and secondary windings, your transformer will present a reflected load of 6.15Ω, when the secondary is loaded by the 47kΩ of your preamp. Now the source resistance of your SPU GME is 6Ω, and Ortofon recommend a load of > 10Ω. But no matter, because the effective load is similar to the source impedance, the two will form a voltage divider and the output voltage (at 5cm/s) of 0.2mV from the cartridge will be reduced to 0.098mV. This will then be boosted by 120x to produce a more than healthy 11.85mV into your preamp.

Hi Barry,

I have very little understanding of electronics etc can you explain the voltage divider a little, in simple terms please & does this happen with all SUT's?

Cheers, alfie.

Marco

19-03-2012, 12:54

Hi Alfie,

I was watching this pair of JS transformers on ebay, Marco, but didn't bid as these were ones I was told didn't suit the SPU so very well. :scratch:

You have to ask yourself the question that if they were that unsuitable for an SPU, then why were there 36 bids placed on them (and why did they fetch such a high price?), particularly as Guy has stated that the gain which they have, in his opinion, is too much even for the Io - surely one of the lowest output MCs on the planet?

Therefore, what on earth were the other 35 bidders, on the JS SUTs, intending on using them with? ;)

Marco.

Barry

19-03-2012, 13:06

Hi Guy,

Just a quick clarification, mate... It's the ST-80SE I'm comparing the JS SUTs against, not the Verto. However, I'm going to try and obtain a Verto, to assess how it performs against the ST80SE (Ortofon's current top SUT), and of course, the Schous.

And yes, there is massive difference in where I need to position the volume control for normal listening levels, when switching between the JS SUTs and the ST80SE... With the Schous, my normal listening level is achieved at between 8 and 9 o'clock on the dial (with 'zero' being at 6 o'clock), whereas with the ST80SE, it's more like 12 o'clock!

This is likely one of the reasons why it sounds rather 'weedy' and lacklustre in comparison with the JS SUTs, quite simply because the gain structure isn't right between my SPU, the Croft's valve MM phono stage, and the ST80SE.

It's a bit like in the old days of tape, when you didn't dial-in enough level, and thus recordings would sound rather 'soft' and lacking in dynamics, no matter how much you turned up the volume on your amp: increasing the volume simply resulted in more noise/distortion. It's exactly like that when I compare listening to music through the ST80SE, and then with the JS SUTs.

The gain structure is bang-on, with the Schous, and consequently the sound is incredibly good!! :cool:

Marco.

When I commented that your SPU/JS combination would produce a "healthy 12mV", I was implying you could easily have far too much gain. The fact that your "normal listening level" (and from my understanding, that is a lot louder than mine!) is with the volume control at 8 -9 o'clock (with the 'off' position at 6 o'clock) does indeed imply you do have far too much gain.

I don't think your Croft preamp is being allowed to operate optimally as regards gain and noise. The general rule of thumb is that input voltage levels and amplifier gain should be such that for 'normal' listening levels the volume control is around the 12 o'clock position.

With your set up, you have very little adjustment for 'late night listening' and will be running into noise.

MartinT

19-03-2012, 13:14

Not just that, Barry, but there is a real danger of phono stage overload with that kind of gain. With my Hashimotos set to 29dB and phono stage set to 40dB gain, the overall system gain of 69dB matches CD for volume setting.

Frankly, my system could not take any more SUT gain as the Whest's minimum gain setting is 40dB. 12mV would simply run it into distortion.

Marco

19-03-2012, 13:15

Hi Barry,

Trust me it doesn't sound that way, mate.

What you should also know is that the position for my normal listening levels on the Croft has changed since a lot of feedback was removed from my copper amp, therefore its sensitivity has increased in line with that, and also the gain from the Croft. Indeed, as a result, the copper amp now also sounds STUNNINGLY good!!

Indeed, it now also has variable feedback, which is excellent. Also, when I say "normal listening levels", I don't mean the levels that I 'subject' you to when you're down, lol. I mean the level that I normally listen at when alone, which is substantially less!

The 9' o'clock position on the dial is where I listen to both vinyl and CD, at my 'normal levels'. 11-12 o'clock, is the level I play at when 'the lads are round for a blast', and at that position on the dial, the sound is very loud indeed (but controlled) :gig:

In fact, just as it would be on Anthony's Soul Mate preamps, and on the likes of Naim preamps. Playing music at the 12 noon position (where you suggest that "normal" listening levels should be), on either of those amps, results in near-deafening listening levels - far from normal!

I trust that this now explains things a little better? :)

Marco.

Barry

19-03-2012, 13:16

Hi Barry,

I have very little understanding of electronics etc can you explain the voltage divider a little, in simple terms please & does this happen with all SUT's?

Cheers, alfie.

Hello Alfie

Yes it happens with all step up devices (regardless of whether they are active (head amps) or passive (transformers)).

What happens is the the output voltage generated by the cartridge (again regardless of type) is developed across both the internal resistance of the coil and the (effective) load impedance presented by the step-up device.

In the present case, the presented load is virtually the same as the coil resistance and since these are in series, the voltage across the load will be about half the voltage generated.

This is one of the reasons why it is recommended the load impedance is at least 10x the coil impedance (or resistance, since the inductive reactance can for this purpose be ignored). That way there will be less than 1dB distribution loss.

pure sound

19-03-2012, 13:22

I suspect that JS transformers have the same cachet in the Orient as Western Electric, old Tannoy, Garrard, EMT etc. They'll always be popular with enthusiasts for that kind of equipment. They were available in various ratios presumably for different types of microphone back in the day. I saw another pair with a staggering 1:230 ratio printed on them. Lord only knows what they were for but it's a fact that as the ratio increases the bandwidth starts to suffer (as can be seen to a small degree in the Verto spec above).

I doubt you'll be overloading a valve pre like the Croft but an SS pre might not be so comfortable with them!

Darren

19-03-2012, 13:30

Hi Marco,
Glad you are pleased with your new SUTs. It increasingly strikes me as an area where you really have to know what you are doing to get a good result.

They do seem to be have been rather a lot of money. Did you not ask the seller to take some magic beans? As we all know these are worth the same as gold bullion............

Marco

19-03-2012, 13:31

Hi Guy,

I suspect that JS transformers have the same cachet in the Orient as Western Electric, old Tannoy, Garrard, EMT etc. They'll always be popular with enthusiasts for that kind of equipment.

Could be, although I suspect that there were also a few SPU users amongst my fellow bidders, because they knew how bloody good the Schous were!! ;)

Also, one should consider this information, provided by the seller, on the eBay advert:

JS Jorgen Schou step-up transformers in unusually good condition. They appear to have been installed only once, extremely competently. They were part of a beautiful Garrard/SME/Ortofon SPU/Leak system.

Therefore, if they suited that "beautiful Garrard/SME/Ortofon SPU/Leak system", where they had been installed (and presumably enjoyed for 49 years, by the previous owner), then why wouldn't they suit another valve-based system like mine??

And (again from the advert):

I have tested these by connecting to the moving magnet inputs of a Linn Uphorik, and then also listening to the same AT OC9 II through the Uphorik's MC inputs. These transformers sounded sensationally good and I couldn't say confidently which arrangement I preferred.

It certainly confirms what I'm also hearing...

Surely Richard (the previous owner), who posts here and on pfm as 'Sonndek', would've noticed the overload suggested by some, particularly as he was using it with an OC-9 (a MUCH higher output cartridge than an SPU), through a Uphorik, and then presumably through the rest of a solid-state system! :eyebrows:

Perhaps you should ask him that question on pfm?

I doubt you'll be overloading a valve pre like the Croft but an SS pre might not be so comfortable with them!

Indeed. But trust me, in my system, it's a non-issue. I guess it's also another valid instance which proves that measurements don't always tell the WHOLE story!!! ;)

Marco.

Marco

19-03-2012, 15:27

They do seem to be have been rather a lot of money. Did you not ask the seller to take some magic beans? As we all know these are worth the same as gold bullion............

:lolsign:

Marco

Barry

19-03-2012, 17:31

Therefore, if they suited that "beautiful Garrard/SME/Ortofon SPU/Leak system", where they had been installed (and presumably enjoyed for 49 years, by the previous owner), then why wouldn't they suit another valve-based system like mine??

Despite the rather high turns-ratio of Marco’s JS SUTs, they could well have worked very nicely in conjunction with an original Leak ‘Varislope’ preamplifier.

Depending on the exact model, one (old) version had a PU sensitivity of 35mV into 100KΩ. With JS transformer the reflected impedance would be 9.8Ω and the effective output voltage into the preamp 15mV. No fear of overload, in fact quite the opposite!

Yet another version had a PU sensitivity of 15mV into 10KΩ. The reflected impedance is now only 3.6Ω and the effective output voltage into the PU input is 9.0mV. Given the sensitivity of 15mV, this would seem to be about right.

As Marco must be tired of stating, he has heard the JS transformer in use with his system, is very happy with it, so all this idle speculation is all rather academic (it’s just that I rather enjoy doing it! :eyebrows:).

I could go on to say that depending on the capacitance of the Croft PU input and of the connecting cable, along with the coil inductance of the SPU cartridge, there may or may not be a high frequency resonance. None of these parameters are known, though the coil inductance is likely to be quite low; say 12.5μH - 25μH. Assuming a total (secondary) capacitive loading of 100pF, then the resonance will either be at 37.5kHz (ultrasonic) with a Q ~2 (and thus very noticeable were it not ultrasonic), or at 18.8kHz with a Q ~1 (just noticeable),

…….. but I can already see Marco’s eyes starting to glaze over, so I’ll stop! :rolleyes:

Marco

19-03-2012, 17:39

Lol - knock yourself out mate, if it gives you a grin! :D

Btw, I meant to ask if you knew of any contact details for Jörgen Schou?

During my research, prior to purchasing these units, I read somewhere that apparently JS still offer a 'rewinding service', for all of their transformers, which is recommended after a certain period of time, in order to maintain their optimum sonic performance.

Well, if this is still possible, I'd like to investigate it further :cool:

Marco.

Barry

19-03-2012, 18:10

Googling "Jorgen Schou transformers, Denmark" is most unhelpful! I'm not even sure if they are still in business. :scratch:

Suggest you telephone the Danish embassy and ask to speak to their trade department. If JS are still in business, they will be able to provide contact information.

Cheers

sq225917

19-03-2012, 18:13

You can't make an inter forum 'magic bean' exchange, everyone knows that, there's no accepted clearing house for them... ;-)

Marco

19-03-2012, 18:27

Googling "Jorgen Schou transformers, Denmark" is most unhelpful! I'm not even sure if they are still in business. :scratch:

I know that's why I asked! :D

I thought that you may perhaps have had something filed on your computer about the company, being as you're often a mine of knowledge about these things...

I'll leave it for now, as the rewinding thing was just an idea and certainly not something that I'd be doing soon.

Marco.

MartinT

19-03-2012, 18:32

Hi Marco

Not sure if you saw my post #58 but I'm not sure your SUT is going to work in my system. When I tried an Audio Note transformer wound for 32dB gain some time ago it definitely overloaded the Whest. Shame, as direct comparison with the HM-7s is going to be tricky whatever we do due to the gain difference.

Marco

19-03-2012, 18:44

Hi Martin,

Noted, dude, but it might be different with my SPU in the equation... Also, there's nothing stopping me from bringing my Croft preamp down too, which I know works with the JS SUTs.

Therefore, we could do the comparison with the Hashimotos, using my preamp in your system, which of course you've heard at Scalford, in conjunction with the H7 :cool:

Marco.

Barry

19-03-2012, 18:47

A bit of a long shot, but you could try asking Ortofon themselves. I suspect Ortofon now have their transformers made in Japan (along with their arms), so they may not be interested in telling you - but it's a thought.

Cheers

Marco

19-03-2012, 19:03

Cheers, Barry. I'll bear that in mind :)

Marco.

HoraceW

19-03-2012, 19:30

This takes me waaaay back. These are JS "Indgangstransformere" (input transformed) and the 0,32 is the series the M means it is a transformer with mu-metal shielding (if it had an X instead of an M it would be open cased) and the -41 means it has 1.5 ohm primary with 20Kohm secondary and originally intended for general Ortofon FFR (full freq range) use. The ones that were designed specifically to work with Ortofon cartridges were -75 meaning they had 1.5ohm primary with 90kohm secondary. Be careful using the -41 with the SPU as you may well saturate the phono stage as well as get all sorts of strange artefacts (it looks like Barry has already touched on this in a previous post above). The ones you really want are the 0,16S which were the inline types for connecting directly to the cartridge.

Marco

19-03-2012, 19:33

Hi Hugh,

Thanks for the info - most interesting. It's always good to have a bit of the history behind these things :)

Marco.

MartinT

19-03-2012, 19:37

Noted, dude, but it might be different with my SPU in the equation... Also, there's nothing stopping me from bringing my Croft preamp down too, which I know works with the JS SUTs.

Therefore, we could do the comparison with the Hashimotos, using my preamp in your system, which of course you've heard at Scalford, in conjunction with the H7 :cool:

Yup - that should work.

Marco

19-03-2012, 22:27

No worries, Martin - sounds like a plan! :cool:

Ok, as I've still got the Ortofon ST-80SE SUT here, I decided to give it one last go before sending it back to the dealer, thinking that as it was brand new out of the box, perhaps the reason why it sounded a bit lacklustre was because it hasn't been burnt in....

Do SUTs burn-in? I didn't think so, but I can confirm that they most certainly do - well the ones in the ST-80SE do at least! :eek:

After having used it non-stop now for the last few hours, the ST-80SE has really opened up and is now sounding very good indeed. Comparison now with the JS SUTs is much closer than it was before, and indeed, in some respects, such as channel separation and the width of the stereo image and soundstage, the ST80-SE is notably better.

The JS SUTs still trump it, in terms of the beguiling 'vintage tone' I decribed earlier and ultimate midrange clarity, but I'm going to put more hours now on the ST-80SE before coming to a final conclusion on which SUT I ultimately end up with! I'll keep people posted in due course :)

Marco.

MartinT

19-03-2012, 22:39

Do SUTs burn-in?

They certainly do, and John Parker of Choir Audio took great pains to warn me that the Hashimotos required a goodly period of burn-in. He recommended 30-50 hours.

Marco

19-03-2012, 22:44

Ah... In that case, I've been rather too hasty in dismissing the ST-80SE! :doh:

There are more than a few hints of greatness with this unit now, as it burns in, so I guess that I'm going to have to reserve judgement until I've put a few more hours on it with some music.

I'll use it constantly until the weekend, and then report back. It's certainly a luxury having access to two superb SUTs like this! :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

19-03-2012, 22:47

I can support the view that they need a good work-out before coming on song. I've noticed it with several different models & my Mu's were attached to the Bent Audio 'cooker' to burn them in before they were shipped.

Marco

19-03-2012, 22:53

Interesting, Chris... It's seems pretty clear that this unit is still sounding 'tight', as it's brand new. I suspect that it needs to 'loosen up' a bit, if you know what I mean?

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

19-03-2012, 22:59

Interesting, Chris... It's seems pretty clear that this unit is still sounding 'tight', as it's brand new. I suspect that it needs to 'loosen up' a bit, if you know what I mean?

Marco.
:eyebrows: All these audio expressions... To me I'd describe 'tight' as stopping & starting quickly - more likely in the bass - clean. Things that get loose tend to sound flabby imo. Bloated & a tad out of control...

Ah, but you trust my ears apparently from Scalford... It's the expressions we need to come to an agreement on I reckon :cool:

We'll get there in the end no doubt!

Marco

19-03-2012, 23:06

Lol, Mark... I meant "tight", as in constrained: unable to 'let go', rather like the engine in a brand new car is 'tight', and gets better ('loosens') with use.

It's not really a tonality thing, with the newness of the ST-80SE, but rather the need to lose its shackles, 'breathe', and allow music to 'escape' and flow properly.

Does that make any more sense? :)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

19-03-2012, 23:11

Ah, yes... I'll take a breath now I understand :)

Constrained, that's the one....

The Grand Wazoo

19-03-2012, 23:29

I think you can speed things up by connecting the output of a tuner into the output ends of the trannies - I seem to remember that was a method being suggested for burning in.

Darren

19-03-2012, 23:30

You can't make an inter forum 'magic bean' exchange, everyone knows that, there's no accepted clearing house for them... ;-)

Dont you start trying to make it right now young man. You are still on the naughty step as far as I'm concerned. :wanker:

Marco

19-03-2012, 23:39

I think you can speed things up by connecting the output of a tuner into the output ends of the trannies - I seem to remember that was a method being suggested for burning in.

Good tip, Chris! I'll try that, too. Things are already starting to improve quite considerably. I can't believe just how much things can change.

Mmm... I think that in the end this is gonna be a tough one to call! I guess that if I decide to let the JS SUTs go, they shouldn't have too much trouble finding a new home ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

19-03-2012, 23:42

Here's a refinement of that from Thorsten Loesch:

"Please consider connecting a CD-Player to the secondary (Output) of the TX-103 and then terminate the input with a low resistance resistor (quality uncritical), I'd say 27 Ohm when connected for 14db gain, 6.8 Ohm when connected for 20db gain and 2.2 Ohm when connected for 26db gain. Leave with a highly dynamic, wide bandwidth signal CD to play for a week or two. I would use music, but I'd expect pink noise to work well too."

Marco

19-03-2012, 23:48

Sounds like then I'll need to give them a good week of thrashing! :fingers: :hairmetal:

It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it!!

Marco.

Barry

19-03-2012, 23:48

Marco

19-03-2012, 23:55

I completely agree, Barry.

If hadn't persevered with the ST-80SE and given it another chance, as my experience suggested was necessary, it was going back on Monday, and I might have lost out on owning another superb SUT, and (Ortofon) and my dealer would've lost out on a sale!

I simply have to give it some time now and decide what to do in due course. I won't be keeping both units :)

Marco.

sq225917

20-03-2012, 00:04

Dont you start trying to make it right now young man. You are still on the naughty step as far as I'm concerned. :wanker:

I'm not trying nuthink, it's just taken 'yous' this long to get the gag. :doh:

Marco

20-03-2012, 00:05

And on that note, we'll leave that particular part of the discussion there. Churz! :cool:

Marco.

A.Grail

20-03-2012, 09:02

The JS traffos are good fun to play with. I've toyed with the following:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/AG%20Ebay%20Shop/DSCN3518.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/AG%20Ebay%20Shop/DSCN0938-2.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/AG%20Ebay%20Shop/audiograil_oct_4th_201123.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/AG%20Ebay%20Shop/Audiograil_dec22.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/AG%20Ebay%20Shop/DSCN4745-1.jpg

The 6717's are without doubt the best and were developed to match the Ortofon new fangled Stereo cartridges. The one I liked best with the 6717's was:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/AG%20Ebay%20Shop/DSCN09812.jpg

Avoid the 251's BTW regardless of what eBay sellers may remark, these do not pair well with cartridges.

pure sound

20-03-2012, 10:02

Matt, which were the ones with the ridiculously high ratio?

Marco

20-03-2012, 11:08

Wow, Matt - some great pics and info there... I had no idea that so many of our members had experience of using the JS SUTs - superb stuff! :)

Marco.

A.Grail

20-03-2012, 19:21

Matt, which were the ones with the ridiculously high ratio?

The 251's
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/AG%20Ebay%20Shop/JSNO41.jpg

Marco

25-03-2012, 10:38

Well, after having given the ST80SE plenty of time to burn-in, which the unit has responded very well to indeed, and thus is now sounding superb, I've decided to keep it and put the vintage JS SUTs back up for sale.

The ST80SE doesn't have the richness of tone or beguiling midrange projection of the JS SUTs (if you value those traits, then the latter have little equals), but in my system, the ST80SE produces a most musical sound, and one to my ears which synergises beautifully with my SPU Classic GM (E) and Ortofon RS-212D tonearm. The ST80SE's dual-mono design, in particular, gives music a stunningly wide stereo image and adeptness with instrumental separation which is most appealing, not to mention very realistic sounding.

Overall, there is just a relaxing sense of 'rightness', with the ST80SE. Thus it seems clear to me that these items from Ortofon were designed to work together as a partnership, which is why I intend to use them that way, as I have always valued a 'holistic' approach to system-building. The ST80SE is now an integral part of my vinyl replay system:

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6143/st80secontentimage.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/st80secontentimage.jpg/)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9655/st8020se20back20white20.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/141/st8020se20back20white20.jpg/)

:)

Therefore, if anyone here with an SPU fancies bidding on the (utterly superb) JS SUTs, then they're now up for sale on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160771121940

Good luck, chaps! :cool:

Marco.

P.S If anyone wishes to make me a realistic offer for their value, before the auction ends, then please send a PM :)

Marco

01-04-2012, 12:14

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160771121940?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649&autorefresh=true

Well, that was sweaty for a bit, but I managed to make £12 on them in the end (on the £908 that I paid)! :D

I think that I've pretty much settled on the ST-80SE, as it does sound superb, with my SPU, but someone alerted to me to the existence of this chap, the Silvercore, which apparently is meant to be stunning:

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/9627/silvercoremcsut.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/silvercoremcsut.jpg/)

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/187/silvercore2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/silvercore2.jpg/)

Info from the Website on Deco Audio:

The Silvercore MC is an all 99.99% pure silver wired step up transformer which uses amorphous toroidal cores for wide bandwidth. The case is made from a solid block of hard plastic that is milled to provide a well damped non resonant enclosure. The transformers can be made to individual requirements of between 1:10 and 1:30 ratio, with different loading impedances available, standard setups include the following versions, but please enquiry about any specials required:

Silvercore MC AG100 100 Ohm 1:10 ratio, recommended for up to 40 Ohm cartridges (suitable for most MC cartridges)

Silvercore MC AG25 25 Ohm 1:20 ratio for low impedance cartridges (up to 12 Ohm with lower output voltage)

Silvercore MC SPU intended for use with the Ortofon SPU cartridge series

Silvercore MC all models listed above: £935.

http://www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_step_up_tx.html

So I've ordered a loaner that should be here in a few weeks, which I will then compare with the ST-80SE, and then make my final decision and put the SUT thing to bed! Look out for a full comparison between both units, soon! :cool:

Marco.