Would you have perfect sound?

[realysm42]

If there was a breakthrough in technology and developed the perfect speaker, the one the represented everything as it was meant to be heard and the perfect amp to drive it, would you take it?

I know one mans perfect might not be anothers, but humour me here, I'm saying one that gives perfectly neutral and life-like sound reproduction at any volume (let's got really crazy and say regardless of your mains quality or listening environment).

The reason I ask is due to other threads on here, for example Marco's one that challenges you on how confident you are in your knowledge and how open minded you really are (sorry if that's not an accurate description of the meaning, you know what I'm saying :ner: ) and my own tinkering.

Am I asking are you in this for the music or the technology and fiddling? I don't think so; I venture we're all in it for a bit of both (I'd guess and to differing extents for everyone).

Personally I'd not take the wonder gear. I love the way my stereo sounds and look forward immensely to improving it in future and learning along the way. I think perfect hi-fi is a destination and I'm all about the journey.

I'm 100% satisfied being 90% satisfied all of the time :eek:

[morris_minor]

Yeh! I like a bit of fiddling :eek:.

You know when you dream of how you'd spend that big lottery win - well I know I'd never be satisfied with whatever mega-kit I got. I'd always be, er, fiddling with this or that.

Having a finite budget forces you to get to know what you've got, and hopefully like it. If the perfect system ever came along the hobby aspect of hi-fi would cease to exist. Knowing us lot here, we'd all try and improve on perfection. :lol:

[snuffbox]

Didn't B&O have a speaker a few years back that listened to the room then adjusted itself to suit.

[alan47]

I agree with you completely,the only trouble is that the majority of manufacturers think that they have already done it.:rolleyes:

[Tim]

Well I have reached the end of my journey and I'm 100% happy right now. The only thing I would 'possibly' consider changing is my DAC or the amp if it gave up the ghost - but it's all good here are Tim Towers, my tinkering days are over :)

(apart from sorting out my power delivery, but as I'm in a rented apartment and moving again, that can wait till I retire and move to my final home and set some roots down)

[realysm42]

Interesting answers all.

Tim, it'll be interesting to see what you reckon you to my dac tomorrow.

[alan47]

Tim..OOO,Don't speak to soon,,I have spent more time and money on gear since i retired than i ever spent in the thirty five years of listening when i was working.To busy then,not busy enough now,or so her indoors says.:lol:

[sq225917]

Yes, but it probably wouldn't be my sole hifi.

[Reid Malenfant]

Didn't B&O have a speaker a few years back that listened to the room then adjusted itself to suit.
B&W made a digital box of tricks that I don't think ever went into commercial production that listened to the output of the speakers & the room interaction. It then adjusted things in the digital domain to "get rid of the room" & get a flat response from the speakers.

A similar thing is available on a good few of the more expensive AV amplifiers which I believe is called Audyssey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audyssey_Laboratories).

While it may at first appear to be a good idea & while I use digital room correction myself, I wouldn't want to use it above bass frequencies which have the largest room interactions. It does work incredibly well in my system, but it's restricted to a maximum frequency of 150Hz.


On a different note there are some "perfect" loudspeakers out there, however they are restricted to treble frequencies. While they are musically perfect there are other non musical problems :eyebrows: Look up plasma speakers, I'm sure there is one in production, but if you can't find it look for info on the Ionofane :) Perfect reproduction as there are no moving parts so it's infinately fast with perfect transient response... They just chuck out a bit of Ozone as an unfortunate side effect & they don't last forever as there is some ware due to heat from the plasma & charge migration eating away at the electrodes :rolleyes:

[WOStantonCS100]

Most of my listening is done late at night/early morning. Since I lost my cave, headphones are a necessity. Despite the fact that headphone listening essentially "removes" the room, I do not prefer headphone listening over speakers, even with their imperfections and room interactions. In fact, like adjusting to the differences between various performance halls, clubs, etc., I adjust to the listening room. I do use eq to even out any egregious frequency imbalances and sparse room treatments to eliminate obvious and/or distracting echo; but, I don't go to extremes with it. There's a certain thing about listening to music "in the air" which pleases me. Some days I'll want to sit in the sweet spot and not budge. Other days, I'm completely happy listening off-axis, marveling at how the music is "living" in the room; kind of like not being dead center in front of the stage in a small jazz club. Even sitting off to one side... there's an ambiance. I think that little 10% that's left over is always going to be there irrespective of the gear. In that space resides our psyche at any given point. This is probably all just jibberish. Maybe not. Maybe so. Maybe not. :)

[realysm42]

Mark, how can anything be infinitely fast? If the plasma has to move, surely it's not faster than the speed of light (although no instruments played are either, but you get my question).

Biff yeah I get you, when I lay on my bed for music it's not optimal and yet it's almost quite enjoyable hearing the 'flaws'.

One day, when we have this perfect stereo I imagine surgery will be more easily available and advanced I wonder if the audiophile will begin to look inwards; we don't all hear the same and some certainly hear better than others, I wonder what the top spec ear drum would look like and indeed would it be natural, or are there better materials?

I wonder what this would do to reviews which are partly subjective, no matter what people say, would they become more aligned?

[Werner Berghofer]

Tim,


my tinkering days are over :)

What? No interest anymore in Schiit headphone amps or Schiit DACs? ;-)

Puzzled,

Werner.

[Reid Malenfant]

If there is no mass to move it can accelerate as fast as the soundwave it produces, there is no delay. Apologies as I guess I shouldn't have said infinately :eyebrows:

But as fast as the sound as no mass is involved in it's reproduction ;) This is why these things have no problem reproducing 100KHz, time for bat ears :D No breakup modes as nothing to break up, I think you get the picture...

[realysm42]

Oh I see, fair enough. Have you ever heard these things Mark?

Also (and I know this is partially side stepping your point, which is valid) aren't the speakers only as good as the amp (and every other part of the chain). So these plasma would perfectly replicate the 'flawed' signal they receive?

[Reid Malenfant]

Amplifiers tend to distort far less than loudspeakers & no I haven't heard any... Wish I was rich enough to own a set though :D If you think about it a speaker that doesn't suffer breakup modes & has no mass at all can't add a whole lot of distortion to the proceedings ;)

[realysm42]

What's a break up mode (in plain English please :eyebrows:)?

[Tim]

What? No interest anymore in Schiit headphone amps or Schiit DACs? ;-)

Ah, I don't count my headphone system Werner, I was talking about my main living room system, which I am very pleased with. Just about to get an iPad to control it as well ;) Now my money just goes on music and concerts.

[Tim]

Tim, it'll be interesting to see what you reckon to my dac tomorrow.
What do you have Martin?

[realysm42]

What do you have Martin?

Got an M-dac, with some RDC accessory loving. It's what you can demo the Grados on if you wish :eyebrows:

[Tim]

Not heard an M-Dac, so yes please.

[Reid Malenfant]

What's a break up mode (in plain English please :eyebrows:)?
Any diaphram material that a driver is made out of isn't infinately (there is that word again) stiff. At some point you'll feed this hypothetical driver with a frequency that it simply can't respond to as a pure piston. What we want is it to act as a pure piston so we don't get breakup. Breakup is the point where it is being asked to reproduce a frequency that it can't do accurately because of it's mass & stiffness. At the point of breakup part of the driver can't respond in a linear manner due to it's mass & stiffness so a bit of the diaphram will start going out of phase with the rest of it simply because it can't respond fast enough!

In soft dome tweeters it tends to be controlled to a certain extent because these tend to have a damping compound coated onto the soft dome. In the case of a metal dome they aren't & what can result is a nasty load of peaks in the high treble that sounds fizzy, hard & not very nice...

Now as you can now see, if you have something that weighs bugger all it can respond instantly to the waveform being fed to it & there will be no breakup :)

[realysm42]

Thanks for the description; it's very interesting that the way to get round something not being infinitely stiff is to simply 'remove' it from the equation.

Can they be used for bass aswell? And if not, why?

[Reid Malenfant]

I have heard that it is possible or has been used down to 400Hz, the only problem is they need to be horn loaded as they are not very efficient. All the units I have heard of have been horn loaded :cool:

[realysm42]

So if there's no mass to these, does it mean they're extremely easy to drive?

[Reid Malenfant]

No.... To generate the plasma they need what is effectively a radio frequency transmitter. This is then modulated by the audio signal. If I remember right the Ionofane ran at about the same frequencies as CB radio or 27MHz

So in effect you have an active tweeter & no real chance (unless you are an electronics engineer) of changing the amplifier :hmm:

[Darren]

If there was a breakthrough in technology and developed the perfect speaker, the one the represented everything as it was meant to be heard and the perfect amp to drive it, would you take it?

I know one mans perfect might not be anothers, but humour me here, I'm saying one that gives perfectly neutral and life-like sound reproduction at any volume (let's got really crazy and say regardless of your mains quality or listening environment).

Of course I would take such things. I'm always looking to make the music reproduced by my systems more realistic and closer to the real thing. Every time I upgrade I'm looking for the 'live' quality I experience when I hear real voices, real instruments.

[realysm42]

Fair enough.

I too upgrade with quality in mind (I guess everyone does) but I would be disappointed if I reached that hypothetical place I think, I love the thought of progress; although if shown this magical system, I don't know if I'd turn it down :eek:

[Reid Malenfant]

<snip> although if shown this magical system, I don't know if I'd turn it down :eek:
I know I wouldn't :eyebrows: I could then just buy music & not worry or think about improving the hifi ;)

[realysm42]

Fair play Mark. Would you not miss playing with the system to try and get some improvements out of it? For me that's part of the fun.

Having said that, I'm sure we're all at different stages of our journeys in hi fi, and for all the BTDT's (been there done thats) it might just seem tiring lol.

[Reid Malenfant]

Well there is always room for improvement isn't there :) After all there is no such thing as perfection with anything.

I'm sure no matter what it was it could be subtly tweaked, it's just that you wouldn't have to shell out all the big money :eyebrows: