LP12 rejuvenated

[MikeMusic]

I have my LP12 back at last.
Serviced and fault free.
The Karma was found to be dodgy on one channel so I have a 2nd hand Dynavector DVX20 (if I remember right)
First impressions last night - it's better, different.
First album on I didn't know Rainer and Das Combo-Barefoot Rock, but it sounded very 'real' and 'raw'.
Album both Sally and I know -
Eric 461 Ocean Boulevard - not good, think that is the production
Ry Cooder - Crossroads - much better, hearing more than before and again that raw sound.
Brand X - Moroccan Roll - very nice
More to come when I dig out more albums I love
Broadly it is better, but also different to the pre -service and Karma
Also - I believe I can hear there is more to come, by upgrading something I assume

[chris@panteg]

What PSU do you have with it again ? You can certainly get more from it , speak with Andrew (flatpopely) he loves his LP12 , and it seems pretty well sorted.

[DSJR]

A fettled LP12 may nt be quite what the Techie heads like here, BUT, it should help suspend disbelief on iffy pressings with luck. One thing the LP12 could ALWAYS do is to enable an emotional connection with the heart of the music. Hopefully, you'll grow to appreciate this aspect even more now :)

[MikeMusic]

The serviced Valhalla.
From what I heard here I thought a Hercules would be a good move.
I like my LP12 for what it delivers. If I can get noticeably better, not necessarily *different* I would change.
What's the best way to contact Andrew on this Forum ? (I'm still finding my way around)

[MikeMusic]

When I upgrade or service I expect 'better'
What I didn't expect was this is also so 'different'
461 is a favourite album and I was disappointed it sounded so off. Now has the sound of being knocked up in a shed last thing Friday afternoon, not crafted as it should have been

[chris@panteg]

The serviced Valhalla.
From what I heard here I thought a Hercules would be a good move.
I like my LP12 for what it delivers. If I can get noticeably better, not necessarily *different* I would change.
What's the best way to contact Andrew on this Forum ? (I'm still finding my way around)

Hi Mike

There's a good chance he'll see this thread and reply , interesting about 461 ? Might be the change of cartridge ? Don't know the DV20 , I used a Troika on my LP12 , probably the best cart for the Linn ?

[Audioman]

Mike.

If 461 Ocean Boulevard sounds crap all is not well. Frankly I think you may be better off selling the LP12 as they go for stupid money on ebay and look at something like a used Gyro or Spacedeck. Upgrading a Linn to approach the sound I suspect your looking for can be quite expensive. You could try the Inspire mods which I guess would transform it into a different beast at a fraction of the official upgrades.

[sq225917]

Mike I've spent a lot of time lately working with different PSU options for the Premotec style 120volt motors. Modding them, measuring them, listening to them. If you'd like some opinions...

The Valhalla is ok, it sounds decent but is electrically noisy even when new and limited by the lack of 45rpm. Also it's not exactly located in the best place for a pcb that radiates RFI- and it does.

The Hercules is a better option, it is electrically quieter, it has more accurate filtering of the regenerated AC sinewave and it provides 45rpm. If you site it externally to the deck then you eliminate the small amount of RFI it radiates. It is better than the Valhalla in terms of RFI, just waving a cartridge attached to a phonostage over the powered pcb will prove this fact- but being a separate box several feet away is better still.

There are some further, slight improvements to be had from modding the Hercules, replacing the diodes and up-rating the electrolytic capacitors can help provide an even smoother sinewave for your motor. replacing the onboard 0.2uf output phasing capacitor (which will likely measure about 10% off as mine did) with a sleected cap that measures 0.2uf exactly will provide the most accurate phase lag for the two AC phases fed to your motor, reducing vibration and cogging in the motor. This last swap is a not a subtle change.

There are other options, like a DIY Armageddon, which is my preferred choice on my Kuzma deck, (which uses a modded LP12 bearing, sub-platter and platter), but this is only really a workable option if you don't need 45rpm or are happy with the pulley adapter for 45rpm- which I am.

You'll find some pics here, http://www.flickr.com/photos/59684834@N08/sets/72157628898119387/

[flatpopely]

The serviced Valhalla.
From what I heard here I thought a Hercules would be a good move.
I like my LP12 for what it delivers. If I can get noticeably better, not necessarily *different* I would change.
What's the best way to contact Andrew on this Forum ? (I'm still finding my way around)


You rang sir?

Andrew dot popely at audioflat dot co dot uk

[DSJR]

461 Ocean Boulevard might have good music on it, but my LP (bought at the time) sounds like it really was recorded on a domestic reel to reel in a living room (judging by the amount of tape hiss, an Akai 4000DS must have been used ;))

In terms of absolute fidelity, an old LP12 couldn't be more coloured and "wrong" if it tried - and you can thank Linn themselves for giving me this education.

The thing is, as your turntable gets better at doing its job and not getting in the way, you should find a larger difference in recordings, even from track to track on occasion. This isn't the turntable's fault at all, since it's more accurately portraying what's there in the grooves. As long as it's not stripping the soul from the recording either..

From your early posts, I get the impression that your LP12 was really off, and as long as the dealer did a proper job on it, then the fettling it's had should make everything clearer and less "foggy," but on the other hand, not stomping all over the production, which some LP12 combinations did all too easily. A shame the karma appears to have a coil-winding fault, as a good one should be easily re-tippable to an excellent standard not realised when new, judging by the needle-drops Andrew P and Mark YNWOAN have posted from time to time, the EsCo rebuilds of their internally similar Troika's transforming them into something bang up to date in balance, while keeping all the great things they did before...

keep persevering, and experiment with siting and support if it's an old plinth with no huge corner fillets. These pre 1985 ones were very much more sensitive to what they were placed on..

[Audioman]

461 Ocean Boulevard might have good music on it, but my LP (bought at the time) sounds like it really was recorded on a domestic reel to reel in a living room (judging by the amount of tape hiss, an Akai 4000DS must have been used ;))

In terms of absolute fidelity, an old LP12 couldn't be more coloured and "wrong" if it tried - and you can thank Linn themselves for giving me this education.



Dave.

The point I was trying to make is that a first pressing of 461 Ocean Boulevard can sound realy good on a more precise neutral deck. I always found the technical problems especialy the tape hiss part of it's charm. I just think going for something with a more neutral presentation may be a more economic route to maximising enjoyment of music. That may include a good DD deck.

Paul.

[flatpopely]

Mike.

Is your deck fitted with a Cirkus kit, if not that's number one priority if you want a less coloured accurate sound. It looses non of the get up and go an LP12 has.

Andrew.

[MikeMusic]

Need to check the number of the cart.
And also play 461 again as well as a few others
Tony Williams - Million Dollar Legs was ok last night, was hoping for better

[MikeMusic]

Got some more listening to do for sure to get a handle on this
Anyone live near enough to Chobham free on Sunday .........?

[MikeMusic]

Thanks Simon
I was some way done the path at least mentally to changing the Valhalla. Hercules being the favourite with the rare Norton next. The Armageddon seems pricy in comparison.
For modding I would rather someone who is competent does that for me. Happy to watch and be involved, not do it myself. Would Stamford or someone make those changes - or anyone here I could arm twist ?

What is a DIY Armageddon, a modded HiCap or similar ?

Nice looking deck

[MikeMusic]

Hello Andrew !
I find this occasionally with some favourite albums. Punishment of Luxury is a real case in point. I can see different tracks could sound different as they may be fettled in different parts of the world.
Derek, working at Infidelity was the man working on it. He seems to be known around

The LP12 had been 10-15 years from last service, when the Aro was put in.
I have the Karma so it might be able to be mended and made nice.
Its sitting on new rubber feet on a Mana reference top on a Mana Rack - which houses the PS Audio PPP and the Naim 500/PSU

[MikeMusic]

Hmm
I was talked out of a Cirkus in this very emporium !
Not a cheap fix - or is there one ?

[chris@panteg]

Hmm
I was talked out of a Cirkus in this very emporium !
Not a cheap fix - or is there one ?

Hi Mike

The Cirkus does tighten and clean up the LP12 sound , many argue it removes the musicality of the Linn ? I just felt it tightened and cleaned up the sound :confused:

[DSJR]

The thing to look out for is a used Cirkus from those going to a Keel, or does the Keel not include a bearing for the price charged?

The Cirkus makes an Lp12 sound a little more like master tape, but when did that ever stop anyone having a pop, especially if they own kans and other such abominations for speakers...

[chris@panteg]

No bearing with a Keel Dave , bunch of skinflints lol

[flatpopely]

The thing to look out for is a used Cirkus from those going to a Keel, or does the Keel not include a bearing for the price charged?

The Cirkus makes an Lp12 sound a little more like master tape, but when did that ever stop anyone having a pop, especially if they own kans and other such abominations for speakers...

Kans, currently in residence.

[MikeMusic]

Thanks Chris
Was quoted £460. Assume that would be more if I took it back just for the Cirkus
Is there a cheaper way ? - Yes one 2nd hand on Ebay, 290680502208
How much could I trust that and could I fit it ?
One went for £93 recently
Any other thoughts gratefully received.
I go for accuracy. "Musicality" is a broad brush that could mean awful and I've been through upgrades like that

[MikeMusic]

So a Keel is the very latest ?
Fittable by a semi competent fettler like me ?

[Macca]

Hi Mike - just wondering if the problem may be with the cartridge? You may already have discounted that idea but if not I would look at that first before upgrqading power supplies etc. It is intersting that you thought 461 sounded bad as it is one of my test LP's because it always sounds good so when it doesn't It confirms to me I have something badly wrong!

Do you have the gatefold version or the later single sleeve 'nice price' repressing as that one does not sound as good by half. The older pressing should be warm, rich and lush.

[chris@panteg]

Thanks Chris
Was quoted £460. Assume that would be more if I took it back just for the Cirkus
Is there a cheaper way ? - Yes one 2nd hand on Ebay, 290680502208
How much could I trust that and could I fit it ?
One went for £93 recently
Any other thoughts gratefully received.
I go for accuracy. "Musicality" is a broad brush that could mean awful and I've been through upgrades like that

Hi Mike

If you can get a cirkus kit cheaper ! Buy it and worry about the fitting later , there are some good guys on here and other forums who I believe would be willing to help ?

I think you need to hear a deck with the cirkus and either a Lingo or Norton PSU 1st though , see if that's what you're looking for ? With the Lingo the LP12 sounds leaner and much more precise ! Some find it clinical though .

If you can afford the Keel ? Also consider the Rubikon at half the price ! There is the Sole as well , lots of options , Hifi Dave is not far from you and he knows the Linn well .

[MikeMusic]

Aargh. So many alternatives, most I've never heard of
Sounds like a visit to Dave on the cards soon

[MikeMusic]

Could well be. It is 2nd hand. I have the later pressing. Reminds me I have a later pressing of Layla - appalling tape hiss you can hear coming on and off
Another reason to go see Dave

[flatpopely]

Mike.

I have your email and will respond next weekend (away this week).

Andrew.

[YNWaN]

Hi Mike

The Cirkus does tighten and clean up the LP12 sound , many argue it removes the musicality of the Linn ? I just felt it tightened and cleaned up the sound :confused:

I wouldn't say many claim it removes the musicality, but some do. If by musicality they mean bass bloom, then I would agree. However, it's difficult to see how a mod that improves the ability to pitch bass notes could be called less musical!

[chris@panteg]

I wouldn't say many claim it removes the musicality, but some do. If by musicality they mean bass bloom, then I would agree. However, it's difficult to see how a mod that improves the ability to pitch bass notes could be called less musical!

I agree entirely Mark

I've read posts on the Naim forum where some guys actually had the Cirkus removed and put the old bearing back in .

I just think it sounds much better with Cirkus.

[YNWaN]

Chris, I quite agree. I think, for some, they genuinely like the syrupy, thick sound that vinyl can have and look for the coloration in their turntable to remedy issues elsewhere (essentially using it as a mechanical tone control). My experience is that it is easy to make tonal shifts by modifying a turntable, but it is significantly more difficult to actually improve the resolution.

[chris@panteg]

Chris, I quite agree. I think, for some, they genuinely like the syrupy, thick sound that vinyl can have and look for the coloration in their turntable to remedy issues elsewhere (essentially using it as a mechanical tone control). My experience is that it is easy to make tonal shifts by modifying a turntable, but it is significantly more difficult to actually improve the resolution.

Quite right , in fact I'm happy to admit when I got the Lingo , it highlighted a weakness in my system at the time ! And I was in denial for quite a while but eventually the penny dropped :eyebrows:

[Marco]

I think, for some, they genuinely like the syrupy, thick sound that vinyl can have and look for the coloration in their turntable to remedy issues elsewhere (essentially using it as a mechanical tone control). My experience is that it is easy to make tonal shifts by modifying a turntable, but it is significantly more difficult to actually improve the resolution.


:clap: :clap:

Well said, Mark - I completely agree!!

The fact is some people don't want, and indeed can't handle, true resolution - not just with turntables, but with audio equipment and the systems that they own in general.

Indeed, that fact is borne out when reading some of the comments made here and elsewhere after Scalford....

Marco.

[YNWaN]

I think the balancing of a system is an interesting point and largely why so many superficially humble systems can outperform much more complex ones.

In general, I would support the idea that you want the best possible source, then amps etc, on the basis that rubbish in rubbish out. However, I would also say that a system is only as good as it's weakest link. Sometimes improving an aspect of the front end can throw other system aspects rather more into the spotlight (rather a mixed analogy I'm afraid - sorry).

I think the Scalford show was rather a good example of the issues surrounding system matching as many rooms were made up of components from different systems that had only been put together that day. A good example is the system exhibited by my friends Simon and Dave. Now this system received quite a lot of praise (deservedly so) and consisted of active Tannoys (from Dave) and analogue and digital front ends (from Simon). The combined system did work pretty well, but I am familiar with the sound of these components in their owners systems and they genuinely perform significantly better than they did at the show.

[Marco]

Nope, I know exactly what you mean, and again I completely agree.

It's why the 'speakers first' crew, or more accurately, 'only the speakers matter' crew, will never EVER 'get' it! :rolleyes:

I couldn't believe last year at Scalford how many people came up to me and said, after listening to our system, 'awesome speakers, Marco', referring of course to the Celestions we used, and indeed similar comments on our system were echoed throughout the forums.

There was little mention, however, of the rest of the system which contributed just as much (and in many ways more) to the sound we achieved, than what the speakers were doing! :doh:

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Couldn't agree more.

In my opinion, the speaker first supporters confuse quality with quantity.

[Marco]

And focus on 'sound' (the 'noise' that comes out of speakers) instead of music! ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

I couldn't believe last year at Scalford how many people came up to me and said, after listening to our system, 'awesome speakers, Marco', referring of course to the Celestions we used, and indeed similar comments on our system were echoed throughout the forums.

There was little mention, however, of the rest of the system which contributed just as much (and in many ways more) to the sound we achieved, than what the speakers were doing! :doh:

Marco.

I suspect that was becasue most people are used to teeny-tiny loudspeakers and hearing some loudspeakers capable of proper scale and authority tends to mesmerise them a bit IME, rather than it being due to their adherence to some sort of skewered hi-fi philosphy.;)

[Marco]

Could well be, Martin :)

But I also know what I read on forums (not necessarily here), where people's system-building methodology is 'buy a big pair of Tannoys (for example), a half-decent amp, and *any* 'competent' source, plonk it all down somewhere, and turn it on - job done'!

The notion of system synergy (or ensuring that everything is set-up properly, by filtering the mains supply, using proper equipment supports and cables, etc) completely escapes them - all of which was a BIG reason why our system sounded so good.

Oh, and why the sound (music) coming out of the Celestions was "awesome"! ;)

Marco.

[Welder]

Could well be, Martin :)

But I also know what I read on forums (not necessarily here), where people's system-building methodology is 'buy a big pair of Tannoys (for example), a half-decent amp, and *any* 'competent' source, plonk it all down somewhere, and turn it on - job done'!

The notion of system synergy (or ensuring that everything is set-up properly, by filtering the mains supply, using proper equipment supports and cables, etc) completely escapes them - all of which was a BIG reason why our system sounded so good.

Oh, and why the sound (music) coming out of the Celestions was "awesome"! ;)

Marco.

Just got back from listening to a system set up very much as you describe Marco. :doh:
Nice pair of Ditton 44's wedged against the wall to keep in line with decor etc.
Rather nice McIntosh tuner amp supplying the grunt.
Standard Win PC tower computer feeding the lot.

Sounded awful.
Nice guy, but heard a mutual friends set up having not really been into audio for a long time and suddenly decided he was going to get himself a feck off Hi Fi. :D
Been there all morning trying to sort it out. :doh:

[YNWaN]

People just love 'big dick' speakers, they look impressive; and even if they tell themselves otherwise, that is often more important than the actual sound quality.

[Macca]

People just love 'big dick' speakers, they look impressive; and even if they tell themselves otherwise, that is often more important than the actual sound quality.

There is some truth in that but speaking personally I lived for several years with small speaker/nearfield set ups and always felt they were a compromise compared to what my 'idea' of a hi-fi system should be - probably comes from hearing big JBLs at an impressionable age ;)

[Welder]

Hey Martin.
I see you have Ditton 44's.
This was the first time I've heard a pair and I thought they were better than decent. :)
I wondered if you had yours on stands?
This guy has bouncy wooden floors and I thought that perhaps a very low properly built stand might improve things.

As for big speakers....depends doesn't it. There are more ways to shift a volume of air than a stack of wobbly 15" drivers wedged into a wardrobe. ;)

[Reid Malenfant]

People just love 'big dick' speakers, they look impressive; and even if they tell themselves otherwise, that is often more important than the actual sound quality.
Hmm :eyebrows: Well there are a few members on here that do like a set of speakers that can move some air...

While small speakers can be very good indeed they simply fall over when asked to do deep bass or indeed a realistic (ish) volume level of an orchestra.

Now while I certainly agree that I'd rather have accuracy for most of my listening, I'd also like it for when I go a bit mad & crank things up. At that point small speakers either distort or give up entirely.

So I'd rather have a decent sized sensibly thought out set of speakers that can reproduce any volume levels I'll ever listen to comfortably with consumate ease.

[Macca]

Hey Martin.
I see you have Ditton 44's.
This was the first time I've heard a pair and I thought they were better than decent. :)
I wondered if you had yours on stands?
This guy has bouncy wooden floors and I thought that perhaps a very low properly built stand might improve things.

As for big speakers....depends doesn't it. There are more ways to shift a volume of air than a stack of wobbly 15" drivers wedged into a wardrobe. ;)

I had serious difficulty locating stands short enough so the ones I got where 12 '' which is about 4 inches too tall - plus for room reasons I have to set them up in open space so not ideal in all. Stands of 6-8 inches would be ideal.

[MikeMusic]

I wouldn't say many claim it removes the musicality, but some do. If by musicality they mean bass bloom, then I would agree. However, it's difficult to see how a mod that improves the ability to pitch bass notes could be called less musical!

I'll go for accuracy.
I'v had a few surprises on the upgrade path and going backwards, while more 'comfortable' and 'musical' is not for me

[MikeMusic]

The speakers are where the sound comes out so it can only be down to them !
:-)

[MikeMusic]

I used to have Leak 2075s.
Wonderful speakers. Couldn't believe the 'little' Isobariks sound better

[YNWaN]

Hmm :eyebrows: Well there are a few members on here that do like a set of speakers that can move some air...

While small speakers can be very good indeed they simply fall over when asked to do deep bass or indeed a realistic (ish) volume level of an orchestra.

Now while I certainly agree that I'd rather have accuracy for most of my listening, I'd also like it for when I go a bit mad & crank things up. At that point small speakers either distort or give up entirely.

So I'd rather have a decent sized sensibly thought out set of speakers that can reproduce any volume levels I'll ever listen to comfortably with consumate ease.

I'm not saying that big, full range, speakers are not valid - on the contrary. What I'm saying is that they will only perform well if the equipment ahead of them is up to the task.

[Macca]

I'm not saying that big, full range, speakers are not valid - on the contrary. What I'm saying is that they will only perform well if the equipment ahead of them is up to the task.

Which is true of any size of speaker, surely?

[Marco]

Yes, although small speakers, in general, present less of a challenge for the partnering (amps) to sonically optimise.

But the crux of the point being made is that your 'source and control' components should be just as 'musically capable' as your speakers, in order for the most sonically satisfying results to be obtained. (Note that being 'musically capable' is a different thing entirely from audio equipment conforming to the notion of 'transparency', based on satisfying some superficial measurement criteria).

Assembling a sonically balanced (and most importantly, synergistically matched) group of components, with perhaps a slight emphasis placed on the quality of the source(s), in my experience is the best way of producing the most musically involving and realistic sound from a hi-fi system.

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Which is true of any size of speaker, surely?

Yes it is; to be honest, none of this is relevant to my original point. I was trying to say that when people appointment budget to different components, they find it easy to spend big on speakers that are large and look impressive; when their money would often have been better spent on improving the front end and amplification (nothing to do with whether small speakers are better than big ones).

[Reid Malenfant]

Yep, Marks last comment I agree on entirely...

At least we have that cleared up :)