Please read: USB DACs and OS X (Caiman and Fiio E7 in particular)

[sburrell]

Hi,

I have a Fiio E7 and a Beresford Caiman. To start things off simple, can I just ask those who own either of these devices, and have a Mac running 10.6+ to attach it to, to answer the following question:

What happens to the volume controls in the operating system when you attach either of these devices over USB, and select them as your output device?

When I say "volume controls", I mean:

a) the menu bar item that allows you to modify the system volume

b) the volume control and balance control that exist in the Sound preference pane

c) the volume control keys on your notebook or keyboard (or equivalent) if your Mac supports them

In order not to complicate things, please bear with me if I don't explain why quite yet.

Many thanks in advance :)

[twelvebears]

I own a Fiio E10 rather than E7 but would expect the USB implementation to act much the same.

With the E10, any digital volume control, either system or application, still works but should obviously not be used as doing so will reduce the output quality. Basically keep everything at MAX and control using the Fiio.

My CEntrance DACport doesn't do this and disables the digital volume control automatically.

[sburrell]

With the E10, any digital volume control, either system or application, still works

I'd ask you to clarify, if you don't mind. My E7 has a built-in volume control that ranges between 1 and 60. If your E10 has something similar, then, when you adjust the master volume in the OS on the computer (not applications - applications are not related to this) does it:

a) modify the volume of the audio by directly adjusting the volume setting on your E10 (ie. if you've set the volume on the device to 10, does adjusting the OS volume change the setting on the E10 to, eg. 9 or 11)?

b) modify the volume of the audio before it actually reaches your E10 (ie. the volume of the audio coming out of the headphones or speakers attached to your E10 varies in accordance with changes made on the computer, even though the E10 still reports itself as having a volume setting of 10)?

or

c) make no difference to the output volume from the E10?


My CEntrance DACport doesn't do this and disables the digital volume control automatically.

Does your DACport use a manufacturer-supplied driver (ie. one you had to install yourself, perhaps from a CD or a download from their website) or drivers already present on your Mac?

Thanks Twelvebears.

[Rambaud]

I have an E7 (and E10).

When using the E7, only its Volume Control works - apart from the slider in iTunes.

[sburrell]

That's the behaviour mine exhibits too, Doug. I'm assuming that's the way it's supposed to be, though the reply I got from Fiio themselves was in such poor English I really couldn't say for sure:


[I]f you are saying about E17, it is normal that you connect E17 to your computer,, you can't control it. […] If you are saying about E7, it is impossible that you will not control the volume,

If the double-negative was intentional, then both you and I, Doug, have faulty E7s. :scratch:

It'd be very useful to get a response regarding a Beresford DAC. Anyone with one also own a Mac? Please post your experience.

[Alex_UK]

On the assumption that the E7 works the same on a Mac as it does with Windows then yes - audio is completely given over to the E7, so the computer's volume (etc.) controls have no effect.

[sburrell]

Hey Alex,

I suspected that would be the case, but it's good to have it confirmed - thanks.

By the way, I do intend to reveal the reason for this discussion once enough info has been collated to offer a more-or-less objective assessment. ;) At the moment, though, it's less confusing to simply keep schtum for now.

[Darren]

Confusing? Are you under the impression that we are a bit fick and easily overwhelmed by the intellectual demands of your thread? Duh!

[sburrell]

intellectual demands
Lol, this topic has no intellectual demands whatsoever. It's just that I have several competing opinions (from devs, manufacturers, component providers, and users) all coming together to form a bit of a chaotic mess. I'd rather dig a nugget of truth out of the mud first before saying anything too concrete.
That's all, thicko. :)
As for the Fiio E7 - Fiio are now willing to accept there may be a flaw in the way they've produced it, and are asking advice on how it might be corrected. You see? Fiio are asking _me_ for advice - and I know F all.
Thank god for crack...

[jon1]

Lol, this topic has no intellectual demands whatsoever. It's just that I have several competing opinions (from devs, manufacturers, component providers, and users) all coming together to form a bit of a chaotic mess. I'd rather dig a nugget of truth out of the mud first before saying anything too concrete.
That's all, thicko. :)
As for the Fiio E7 - Fiio are now willing to accept there may be a flaw in the way they've produced it, and are asking advice on how it might be corrected. You see? Fiio are asking _me_ for advice - and I know F all.
Thank god for crack...





Can spare a bit simon?:D


jon

[Reid Malenfant]

Can spare a bit simon?:D


jon
It's not all it's cracked up to be :rfl:

[jon1]

It's not all it's cracked up to be :rfl:





Mark is that pic of a cat in the avatar is it your drinking buddy?:D


jon

[Reid Malenfant]

Not right now as I haven't got the TV on ;)

:eyebrows:

[jon1]

But he will be joining you later :cool::eyebrows:



jon

[Reid Malenfant]

:D Pussibly, I'm thinking of putting a film on :)

[jon1]

:D Pussibly, I'm thinking of putting a film on :)





what Paws 2?:D



jon

[sburrell]

Can spare a bit simon?:D


jon

Are you kidding? I've got to call the Council tomorrow, and I'm out of temazepam. :eek:

[jon1]

Are you kidding? I've got to call the Council tomorrow, and I'm out of temazepam. :eek:





This thead has gone to pot:smoking::D



jon

[Reid Malenfant]

6369

[sburrell]

I guess this is as good a time as any to explain the impetus behind this thread.

It looks as though Fiio and our own Mr. Beresford may be guilty of not programming the USB Audio Class hardware on their devices properly, with the upshot that they do not report themselves correctly to the system. This is why both my Caiman, and the E7 in general, leave the OS-level volume controls available to the user, when in fact they do nothing and should be disabled.

Fiio themselves seem utterly clueless when made aware of this:

Sorry,We now don't have any firmware to correct this, have you seen any similar product can correct this problem, if yes, please kindly let me know ,we will try our best to improve it ,thanks.

Mr. Beresford himself got in touch with Texas Instruments (the providers of the USB chip he uses in the Caiman) but they don't seem to have given him the full picture regarding what must be done to make this chip properly represent the device they go into.

The behaviour that should be exhibited by OS X (and presumably Windows, though I can't test this) when the E7 and the Caiman are selected as the output device is that the OS-level balance and volume controls should be disabled in the same way they are when the Optical Digital-Out is chosen.

It's unlikely that this is anything more than an interface glitch - I'm doubtful it affects the audio - but personally I'd like this fixed in both devices.

So, there 'tis, folks.

PS: Please refrain from more OT posts. Ta :)

[twelvebears]

Sorry for the tardy reply! Option number 2!

Any system volume adjustment changes the digital output level and the volume control on the E10 is untouched but the audible volume does change.

In the case of the E10 the volume is manual in any case.

Oh and regarding the DACport, no, there's not proprietary driver, just works straight out the box

[twelvebears]

You're correct of course. When selected as the output device any system volume controls (iTunes or system) should be disabled, as I said, this is how my DACport functions.

That said, as long as you leave everything at maximum and just use the device volume you shouldn't be any worse off. If you don't of course, you will be losing digital resolution.

Should be pointed out that CEntrance are very much a big-bucks digital company - they licence their tech to Benchmark plus others. Also the DACport cost about 5 times the price of the E10.

[sburrell]

Option number 2!
Any system volume adjustment changes the digital output level and the volume control on the E10 is untouched but the audible volume does change.
Interesting. According to the devs I've spoken to on the CoreAudio mailing list, that's an unexpected behaviour. The OS volume control (as opposed to application level, such as iTunes) apparently has no contact with the audio stream, communicating instead with actual potentiometers or what-have-you. iTunes, on the other hand, _does_ directly fiddle with the audio stream to modify the volume, which is why you should always have Audio MIDI set to output 24-bit audio. I suppose it's possible the OS is interacting with an unadvertised volume control somewhere between the iTunes output, and the manual controls on the E10.:scratch:

Oh and regarding the DACport, no, there's not proprietary driver, just works straight out the box
That's probably because they're more on the ball, seeing as their devices sell for a good deal more, as posted in your follow-up.

Thanks for following up :)

It's a shame that Fiio and Mr Beresford seem to be unaware of the importance of tweaking the settings on their devices to produce the appropriate result in the OS.

Hopefully a post-purchase firmware flash is possible and will become available. :)

EDIT: Does the DACport really disable iTunes' volume control too? That's interesting if it does - that goes beyond what the built-in Optical Digital-Out gets.

[mkrzych]

Hello,
I've just found this thread searching for the similar answer, so I would like to ask you if it is normal that connecting Caiman (in my case MKII) over the USB I have volume slider still available in Audirvana Plus and I can change the volume on the DAC and on the player as well? If TOSLINK is used there is not possiblity to change the volume in the software, but in case of USB it is, but I am not sure what quality? If I change the volume on A+, what and where it's being changed - if in the digital area it seems it will reduce some bits in the digital stream and is not bit-perfect? Am I correct?