NAS Advice

[steviej233]

Hi All, I am looking to take my iTunes off of my laptop and have it somewhere that is backed up or in RAID as i have about 130 GIG's of it to loose at the moment. I have been reading about NAS drives and i was wondering if anyone has any advice if this is the best route or if there is another route i can go down.

[twelvebears]

Plenty of options depending on budget.

I've long used and had good experiences with Data Robotics' DROBO products:

http://www.drobo.com/products/index.php

Started of using the basic Drobo which is basically an easy to use 4 drive RAID USB drive, and a good option if you don't need network access for multiple machines (or can do it via a machine that you will leave on).

I now have the 5 drive Drobo FS which gives me dual-drive redundancy (reassuring with 5TB of data at stake) and Gigabit network access, easily enough for multiple HD video streams.

May advantage of the Drobo products is the ease of use compared to traditional RAID and not having the usual restrictions of having to use identical size drives OR having to upgrade all drives before being able to expand the available storage space.

[Welder]

130 Gigs isn't really a lot of data. I dare say that will increase. :)

There is nothing wrong with Network Storage (NAS) but it would seem a fairly expensive and complicated option to consider atm.
I'm not a fan of RAID i must admit but that's only because its all gone horribly wrong for me on a gaming machine. :doh:

I use individual mains powered ITB storage discs for my music data. This method isn't as convenient as a NAS with auto back up but if anything goes wrong, hopefully just one drive goes down.
It's reasonably cheap (two drives,one for use and one for backup being the bare minimum imo). I've got six atm. :doh: but I've got a lot of tunes and i have two backups.

[Vincent Kars]

The great thing about RAID is that if one HD fails you, the other takes over.
You can go on. This is because of the redundancy.
The downside is that all your errors like deleting the wrong file, applying the wrong tags will be faithfully carried out redundantly too.

If you are in need of a networked solution (can be very convenient) get a NAS.
If you are in need of a Backup get a separate HD.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/NAS.htm

[keiths]

RAID is great to have, but it's an extra level of protection to be used WITH a backup strategy, NOT to replace backups.

[sburrell]

Hi,

A NAS can be used to supply data to iTunes by either "serving" it via, say Firefly or MT-DAAPD, so that it appears in any copy of iTunes as a Shared library; or by simply acting as remote storage by offering up a mounted share or what-have-you that you direct iTunes to store its library on.

If your router supports external USB storage (like an Airport Extreme Base Station), you could just get any device and plug it into that, then mount the drive on your laptop and direct iTunes to store its library on that.

If your router doesn't support external storage, then a NAS is probably the right thing to do. You could set it up as above, to mount as a drive and then direct iTunes to use it for the library; OR you could set up the NAS (if you buy the right one) to offer up your music as a Shared iTunes library. The latter is probably more robust, but there's a big caveat: Apple keeps breaking the servers that share with iTunes by modifying iTunes in some way. Many NASs (like my WD MyBook World Edition) have been caught out by this, and some have patches available to rectify the situation.

Here's what I do: I have a Mac mini running iTunes. It has all the music stored on it, and shares it over my network over Home Sharing. Home Sharing is preferable over bog-standard "Shared Libraries" because it allows you to update play counts and so forth on the remote library. This Home Sharing is compatible with my iPhone, MacBook Pro and Mac Pro.

For backup, I have a clone of my entire iTunes Media folder on a separate HDD that is disconnected and stored elsewhere when not being used to to receive a clone.

HTH.

[stu.dio]

Western Digital do a reasonably cheap 4tb NAS called Sharespace (x4 drives) or cheaper MyBooks again at 4tb but w/ two disks both run RAID5 - I have the Shsrespace and it works well - pretty much plug and play. I also have a Thecus 4100B (much older but with 5 HD bays) I can reccomend either (the Thecus operates better under multiple user access)
As mentioned earlier - you could also try attaching a dual drive USB drive to a wireless router (if it allows - it works really well and is a very cost effective method) or machine that is permanently on - like an apple airport extreme. Whatever you choose will do the job. Would suggest you go for hot swaping capable NAS with one same spec extra drive for spares. And in-case your NAS is near your listening position - keep in mind some cheaper servers are fan cooled and sound like 747s taking off
Stu

[Ali Tait]

Nother shout for Drobo, good bit of kit IMHO, though not the cheapest. They do come up secondhand on ebay regularly though. They really are plug and play, and automatically back up your data for you.

[Mark Grant]

Synology fan boy here:

http://www.synology.com/index.php?lang=default

always keep a backup of what's on the NAS, easy with free utilities such as synctoy set to 'contribute' so no risk of deletions from the backup.
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=15155

[steviej233]

Blimey overwhelming response lads, thanks for that. I have been looking at Synology for a little while as it's not to expensive, but all of the above is VERY helpful now all i need to do is work out what i can afford and what works best with what i have...

[koowat]

Synology/Drobo are great - cant fault them but if you're looking into a bit of DIY - FreeNAS using the HP Proliant is a great option. I think the Proliant can be had for £160 after rebate and you get 4 bays.

[glaringanomaly]

I have just ordered a Synology DS212 - will be for the photo archive, MP3 archive for the family Itunes/Ipod, and the same library in Flac for me to feed via laptop into my Beresford - that's the plan anyway.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Synology-DS212-Bay-NAS-Enclosure/dp/B005TOXI6A

Will be steaming around the house over 200Mpbs ethernet-over-mains widgets.

<Thinks> Has anyone produced audiophile grade homeplugs yet? :eyebrows:

[Canetoad]

Any thoughts on

QNAP TS-219P+ Turbo NAS dual Bay with 1.6GHz 512MB iSCSI and RAID, iTunes Server, Media Server, Web Server, Surveillance Server, iPhone Streaming.

I was thinking of one of these. :scratch:

[Mark Grant]

Should be OK although never used that particular make and model.

A Synology 212+ is about the same price. ( latest 212 model with fast performance and low power consumption)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Synology-DS212-Bay-NAS-Enclosure/dp/B005TOXIC4/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1331293055&sr=1-1

http://www.synology.com/products/product.php?product_name=DS212%2B&lang=enu#p_submenu

http://jasonnash.com/2012/01/19/lab-gear-review-synology-ds212/
that's a review based on DSM 3 firmware,

The latest synology DSM 4.0 firmware is very slick.

A live demo here (very slow as it is an over the internet login with lots of users logged into a NAS somewhere on the internet, on your own network they are instant)

http://www.synology.com/us/products/demo/index.php
-

[sburrell]

Any thoughts on

QNAP TS-219P+ Turbo NAS dual Bay with 1.6GHz 512MB iSCSI and RAID, iTunes Server, Media Server, Web Server, Surveillance Server, iPhone Streaming.

I was thinking of one of these. :scratch:

If you're going to use the iTunes Server aspect, make sure it has been, or will be, patched to work with iTunes - there are no guarantees at the moment, and Apple seem to break Servers with each new iteration now. The current iTunes vsn. is 10.6.

[Canetoad]

Actually, I think I'll go with the Synology 212+! At the moment I just want to use it as a server for my Squeezeboxes anyway. Later it will feed my HTPC.

I already have a 1Tb Seagate drive that's compatible. I'll get another and I'll
be set. I can still backup to the Hitachi external 1Tb drive as well.

Thanks Mark. :)

[ursus262]

We've got two old HDDs from our old desktop PCs - one being an ATA and the other an IDE. It looks like the latest ones only accept SATA drives. Is that right? We wanted a NAS drive enclosure that could take both.

[stu.dio]

network dongle for usb drives (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-2-0-NAS-Dongle-Make-your-HDD-enclosure-networked-/110834153333?pt=UK_Collectables_HardDriveEnclosure s_RL&hash=item19ce3af775#ht_1327wt_934)

you could try this alternative also if you have a bunch of USB drives already. (to be fair if your drives don't have RAID already then you won't be able to do so - but if they do it's definitely the cheapest option)

[dave2010]

stuart

Have you tried that Ethernet/USB dongle thing? Is it any good?

Not sure I want to do it, but if others find it works then might be worth a punt. I've got a few older drives which this could make accessible.

[stu.dio]

About the only issues I can see you having with it is
• it's only 10/100mbps you may run into trouble when say more than 2/3 people are accessing the drive all playing hires audio - it would definitely spit out it's dummy
• there is an added SMPS (x1 for the drive and x1 for the adaptor)

as it happens I just did a quick search on the net - there is a cheaper one (not by much) that does gigabit ethernet so multi playing hires won't be an issue and has some user reviews - USB 2.0 Gigabit NAS Dongle (http://www.amazon.co.uk/USB-Gigabit-Dongle-XBOX-Itunes/dp/B003OSX106)

[nat8808]

Any thoughts on

QNAP TS-219P+ Turbo NAS dual Bay with 1.6GHz 512MB iSCSI and RAID, iTunes Server, Media Server, Web Server, Surveillance Server, iPhone Streaming.

I was thinking of one of these. :scratch:

QNAP are a good make - I went to Taiwan once for a bit of training on their industrial NAS and SAN back when my Dad used to sell them.

I did find that their consumer models weren't competitvely priced though when they were new to the market compared to say the bigger names but hopefully things have changed.

[nat8808]

What is NAS?

Although there are lots of handy features involved these days with off the shelf products, all it is is a computer with some storage, err... on the network.

Why not just get an old PC off free cycle and put a cheap RAID card in it ~ £30 and buy some drives? Set it up as a shared folder on the network.

Just set it up with XP Pro and you'll probably find some automatic backup software utilities out there for free on the web (that automatically copies over a particular folder or drive from another location on the network at timed intervals).

Hell, don't even bother with the RAID card - Win XP will be so freed up from having nothing to do all day, it can handle RAID in software.. Get a cheap Firewire multiple drive caddie thing (I got one from Freecycle) and get XP to set up the RAID on that.

[nat8808]

Or failing that, I've seen Apple XRAIDs sell on eBay for under £100 with a few terrabites in..

[steviej233]

Just thought i would let you know i went with a DROBO unit in the end, and it is brilliant. It's almost silent it's fast and the GUI is easy to interact with. Got some 300GB drives in there for the moment but i will change them up for TB drives when i have some spare cash.

[Canetoad]

I've just set up my NAS and all is working OK. I have a problem though. I installed the SqueezeServer app on it and it runs, but when I go into the Setup->Advances->File Types and disable Flac processing on my Touch I get an error saying it doesn't recognize the file type. Won't the NAS convert to PCM and send the result to the Touch?

This worked OK running Squeezeserver on the PC. :scratch:

[Stratmangler]

I've just set up my NAS and all is working OK. I have a problem though. I installed the SqueezeServer app on it and it runs, but when I go into the Setup->Advances->File Types and disable Flac processing on my Touch I get an error saying it doesn't recognize the file type. Won't the NAS convert to PCM and send the result to the Touch?

This worked OK running Squeezeserver on the PC. :scratch:

No, because the processes involved require a lot more processing grunt than your NAS can supply.
I've gone over to using a Zyxel NSA310, and, with the recent firmware updates it's more than capable of running LMS, with one caveat.
It doesn't have the processing grunt to transcode stuff on the fly.

Which is why I ended up buying a second Squeezebox Touch to replace the SB3 on my home network - the SB3 doesn't play as many file formats natively as The Touch does, so there was a fair bit of stuff that couldn't be played on the SB3.

That said, I'm not going back to running LMS on a PC, as the NSA310 is a lot less power hungry, using only 16W when running flat out.
When it spins down it's using something like 0.004W.
Neither of which is not a great burden on the leccy bill.

It's horses for courses really - depends on where you want to make compromises.

[Canetoad]

I would have thought with a 2GHz processor it would be able to handle it fine. :scratch:

Anyway, seems obvious that it doesn't to do, so I figure that's a bit of a step backwards.

[Stratmangler]

I would have thought with a 2GHz procesor it would be able to handle it fine. :scratch:

Anyway, seems obvious that it doesn't to do, so I figure that's a bit of a step backwards.

The RAM is small.


Memory : DDR2 256MB

There's only so much data you can shovel through that small an amount of memory, and on top of that there won't be a memory cache on the HDD either - it's all real time processing.
File serving doesn't require much in the way of processing ability, so it's apps that utilise the small amount of memory on offer.

[Jamtoast]

I've been using a Thecus N5500 5 bay NAS for over a year. It's been very reliable and very fast, and is very full featured - and is significantly more competitively priced than the better known brands like QNAP.

www.thecus.com/

The only downside is that the interface and documentation are good but not fantastic - so may not be the best choice for the non-IT savvy vs some of the bigger brands.

[AlexM]

Another thumbs up for Thecus - I have used an n5200 pro five drive raid for four years, and it.works like clockwork with Logitech Media Server, currently at 7.7.2

I upgraded mine with a 2.13Ghz pentium m and a gig of ram and it is more than fast enough enough to do 24/192, wav to flac transcoding and up and down sampling at high bit rates. It has two GigE lan ports that I load share with my network switch, so I get very fast file transfers.

I use five 1.5TB drives as raid 5 so plenty of space for any imaginable library.

Cheers,
Alex

[JimR]

Don't confuse RAID with backup. If you accidentally delete some files (it happens) RAID won't get them back.

Buy a second cheap, non-RAID, NAS, copy everthing to it periodically and keep it at a friend's house.

[Jamtoast]

I upgraded mine with a 2.13Ghz pentium m and a gig of ram and it is more than fast enough enough to do 24/192, wav to flac transcoding and up and down sampling at high bit rates. It has two GigE lan ports that I load share with my network switch, so I get very fast file transfers.

Hi Alex
Interested in the mods you've done - is there a good site you know of for hacks/mods to Thecus NAS?

[webby]

I'm need some advice regarding setting up iTunes on a synology ds212j NAS.

Seems to me that there are two options:

1 use it as an iTunes server which means it shows up as shared in iTunes, or

2 use it to store the iTunes media but keep the library files on the mac like I do with my external USB drive.

What are the pros and cons of each? Not having a NAS myself I'm not sure I fully understand the iTunes server option. I'm not too familiar with NAS software and features I'm afraid.

Edit: oh, and then there's Audio Station, whatever that is.

Thanks,

[sburrell]

Wow, this is my first reply in ages. Hopefully it's a good one :)

The main drawback of using a NAS to "serve" your files as a share is that you won't be able to sync that share to an Apple device through iTunes. If you wanted to sync your library to an iPod, it has to be stored like option (2), not (1).

I think the main drawback of using the server like an external drive, in (2), is that changes made to the files (eg. adding a new album) will only be available to the copy of iTunes through which the changes are made. So, if you add an album to the server using iTunes on Mac mini through User1, if you log into User2 that album won't show up in its copy of iTunes. There's also the issue that if more than one copy of iTunes is using the files at one time, changes could be made simultaneously and screw up the files.

Does that help?

[Stratmangler]

I would imagine that iTunes and synchronisation compatibility would depend on the NAS manufacturer.

The NAS I use has the option of supporting iTunes - I don't use it because I don't have any Apple devices, and 99.99% of my digital library consists of FLAC files, which iTunes didn't (and probably still doesn't) like.

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/cdf_1962/iTunesNSA.png

[webby]

Wow, this is my first reply in ages. Hopefully it's a good one :)

The main drawback of using a NAS to "serve" your files as a share is that you won't be able to sync that share to an Apple device through iTunes. If you wanted to sync your library to an iPod, it has to be stored like option (2), not (1).

I think the main drawback of using the server like an external drive, in (2), is that changes made to the files (eg. adding a new album) will only be available to the copy of iTunes through which the changes are made. So, if you add an album to the server using iTunes on Mac mini through User1, if you log into User2 that album won't show up in its copy of iTunes. There's also the issue that if more than one copy of iTunes is using the files at one time, changes could be made simultaneously and screw up the files.

Does that help?Thanks Simon.

If I chose option 2 I would at least be able to share that library via iTunes home sharing wouldn't I, which would make it available to other users via the Shared list? With option 2 at least the main library would appear to be local, yes?

In option 1, would new tracks ripped to iTunes show up on the server? Or do tracks have to be added manually through the server file system?

[Jamtoast]

I'm need some advice regarding setting up iTunes on a synology ds212j NAS.

Seems to me that there are two options:

1 use it as an iTunes server which means it shows up as shared in iTunes, or

2 use it to store the iTunes media but keep the library files on the mac like I do with my external USB drive.

What are the pros and cons of each? Not having a NAS myself I'm not sure I fully understand the iTunes server option. I'm not too familiar with NAS software and features I'm afraid.

Edit: oh, and then there's Audio Station, whatever that is.

Thanks,

Option 2 will give you much more functionality than option 1. When a NAS has an 'iTunes server' all that means is that the music will show up as a shared iTunes library in iTunes on your Mac which kills a lot of functionality as others have said.

Unfortunately there's currently no elegant way of providing full functionality across several Macs using a single shared iTunes library (with common play counts, ratings, etc.). Shirt Pocket (makers of cloning tool Super Duper) had a product called netTunes which was great but hasn't been supported since OSX Tiger.

The best solution I've managed so far is iTunes on a single media centre Mac with an iPad running Remote as a full featured remote control.

[guyhayton]

Unfortunately there's currently no elegant way of providing full functionality across several Macs using a single shared iTunes library (with common play counts, ratings, etc.).

I have one iTunes library running on a laptop which is then shared by using Home Sharing within the iTunes software. Yes this laptop has to be switched on but it shares out the library across other computers on the network, including my iPad.

Play counts and ratings are all updated. I too use the Remote app on the iPad to control the library through an Apple Airport into my Stan-DAC

At some point I intend to invest in a Mac mini that will act as a server, but at present my old Toshiba laptop is providing that functionality.