NVA 'TFS': 'The Future Statement' lands at Marco Towers... [Archive]

Marco

27-02-2012, 02:54

Guys,

This is just a quick introduction to say that Jason 'figlet108' dropped a TFS off at my place on Saturday:

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9789/img2850wt.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/img2850wt.jpg/)

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/6711/img2855bk.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/img2855bk.jpg/)

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9311/img2857w.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/img2857w.jpg/)

...and after spending a very pleasant afternoon and evening listening to the beast with Jason (who is a thoroughly helpful and nice chap), I've been playing a multitude of music through it over the weekend, from ripped CDs to tunes from Spotify and YouTube, I have to say that, sonically, it is very impressive indeed, and it is also very user friendly (vital for a computer numpty like me)!

I'd been looking for a high-quality music streamer, well not actively as such, but if one came up that looked interesting and did what I wanted, then I'd take it further, and the TFS duly tripped my radar. First impressions suggest that this is a very special piece of kit, which has been shrewdly voiced to reproduce music not only convincingly, but with in a way which is extremely addictive. The TFS is a seriously fun listen and has all the usual hallmarks of equipment which has been tuned judiciously by ear.

I'll go into more detail about my experiences with the TFS in due course, as through using it, I become more familiar with its talents. This is simply a short introduction, but so far, connected up to my modified Sony DAS-R1 DAC, the TFS is showing signs of producing the finest sound I've heard to date from computer audio; in fact it's shaping up to be the finest sound I've ever heard from digital music replay - period!! :eek:

Watch this space, folks, for more updates and detailed analysis.....

Marco.

John

27-02-2012, 04:16

I heard this at Richards about a year ago and was also preyyu impressed with it

Ammonite Audio

27-02-2012, 08:25

It was hearing an early TFS at Richard Dunn's house that really piqued my interest in this sort of music PC. So, inspired by Jason and the TFS, I have just built my own music PC, based on the same Asus motherboard, with a single Solid State Disk for the operating system and J River Media Center software, but without the modded Asus soundcard that the TFS uses. The TFS has a very large external linear PSU feeding the motherboard and (I believe) the sound card and the results speak for themselves, as Marco has pointed out. My PC just needs one external PSU (a Paul Hynes SR5) since I only use USB for audio, and it shows great promise. I am using all internal HDD storage for music, though, and with a pair of enclosed and silenced notebook drives spinning inside the case, my PC will probably never be as good as the TFS, but it will be good enough and it's certainly better than my CD player. Another reason why the TFS will probably always be better is the bespoke acrylic case, which has to be better than my pretty Wesena E5.

For the past week I've been ripping my CD collection to the new PC, using the secure rip facility in J River Media Center. It's been interesting to see how it copes with the few poor CDs that I have, some of which have required a lot of re-read attempts. Interestingly, I never realised which ones were poor before this, so presumably the CD player just made a best attempt at playing them, presumably with less than optimum results.

Welcome to the future, Marco!

DSJR

27-02-2012, 08:45

At last, and by unconventional means, Marco has joined the 21st century :lol: WELL DONE SIR!!! You'll be buying AVI speakers next (the ADM40 of course :D) seriously though, there's a place for all forms of music making sources and hopefully, this one will complement all the others :)

Mr Figlet did give some chapter and verse on the basic design of this unit. T'would be interesting to know some more on here, if he wouldn't mind?

Am I now going to be accused of shilling for NVA????? :scratch: It does look rather more "our" kind of thing than a tinny small PC box or an array of laptops linked together AKA Alex's excellent streaming solution :)

Covenant

27-02-2012, 08:46

I know Richard is not a valve man, is it right therefore to assume that the glass (or plastic) columns have no function other than to look pretty?

Theo

27-02-2012, 09:53

I'm enjoying my TFS at the moment: hadn't explored any additional DAC options, as it seems to "gel" as it stands. It will be interesting to experiment though, as it's still not as coherent as my Esoteric CDP.

The columns are acrylic and light up blue when the beast is switched on. I'm sure that Jason would be happy to oblige if the preference was for red. Looks good though...

synsei

27-02-2012, 09:53

Hmmm, whatever NVA are charging for this will be way over the top. Such a system could be built for very few sponduliks and you wouldn't even have to live with that awful case... :ner:

Ammonite Audio

27-02-2012, 10:06

Hmmm, whatever NVA are charging for this will be way over the top. Such a system could be built for very few sponduliks and you wouldn't even have to live with that awful case... :ner:

I don't know what the TFS costs nowadays, but my new media PC costs do add up to well over a grand, so it's not exactly dirt cheap to go DIY. Yes, you can build a cheap PC, but not a completely silent one that is optimised for audio, nor one that looks acceptable in the living room (IMO, of course ;)).

StanleyB

27-02-2012, 10:07

Hmmm, whatever NVA are charging for this will be way over the top. Such a system could be built for very few sponduliks and you wouldn't even have to live with that awful case... :ner:
You can't really blame Richard for the price. As is well known in the audio trade, a product is judged by its price. A higher price takes it into the high-end perception range. A low price would classify it as a budget product.

synsei

27-02-2012, 10:12

I'm not criticising for the sake of it, I'm sure there are people out there who wouldn't want to go through the hassle of building their own PC or haven't got the skills, just pointing out the route I'd take to save money. My PC sounds pretty damn good. it's silent and it stands me at 300 quid ;)

I still think the NVA case is fugly though...

Marco

27-02-2012, 10:14

Where has a price been mentioned? I haven't even asked yet...

'Value', for me, in audio is ultimately judged by the sonic prowess of the kit in question, and so far, the TFS has ousted my £2k highly-modified Sony X-777ES CDP, for transport duties.

I was up until 4am this morning listening to music, through the TFS, and so that should also tell you something! ;)

Just having my morning cappuccino and croissant - I'll be back with more input later.

Marco.

tubehunter

27-02-2012, 10:17

synsei

27-02-2012, 10:21

Each to their own Marco ;)

I'm just as passionate about the sound I'm getting out of my 'puter and what's more I built it myself which puts an even bigger smile on my face... :D

Theo

27-02-2012, 10:22

I still think the NVA case is fugly though...

The power supply (bottom box) sits away from the top section in my set up, and I think its a rather elegant piece of product design. Each to their own I suppose...

synsei

27-02-2012, 10:23

yes mine cost me around £200. i just built my own linear ps.

It is well over priced
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NVA-TFS-Computer-Hifi-Digital-Streamer-/220905606633?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item336f000de9

Jesus wept, I could build something very special indeed for that kind of money and it would have a much, much better soundcard than the old Asus effort... :lol:

Marco

27-02-2012, 10:25

Hi Dave,

You're a bit negative today, no? So much for congratulating me on my new toy! ;)

I'm not criticising for the sake of it, I'm sure there are people out there who wouldn't want to go through the hassle of building their own PC or haven't got the skills, just pointing out the route I'd take to save money. My PC sounds pretty damn good. it's silent and it stands me at 300 quid ;)

I still think the NVA case is fugly though...

Fugly? I guess it's a personal taste thing. Then again, I've always loved shiny black acrylic, since I first saw DNM gear. Sonically, it's also a great material to make audio kit from: non-ferrous and totally free from eddy currents! In the flesh, to my eyes, it looks really smart, and blends in nicely with my black Mana racks - love the blue glow at night, too! :)

What makes the TFS sonically special for me, is the effect of the huge off-board linear power supplies, which incidentally won't have been cheap to produce. They remove that horribly 'peaky' and tonally bleached processed quality I hear every time with file-based systems, powered by cheap and horrid little switch mode PSUs.

Marco.

Marco

27-02-2012, 10:32

yes mine cost me around £200. i just built my own linear ps.

It is well over priced
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NVA-TFS-Computer-Hifi-Digital-Streamer-/220905606633?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item336f000de9

I have to say, Dunc, not for the sound quality it produces. It pisses all over many much more expensive 'audiophile' solutions I've heard, and similarly does the same with any DIY efforts I've heard so far :)

Marco.

synsei

27-02-2012, 10:33

Marco

27-02-2012, 10:34

Jesus wept, I could build something very special indeed for that kind of money and it would have a much, much better soundcard than the old Asus effort... :lol:

Have you heard the TFS? If not, then sorry, you're in no position to judge it.

Marco.

Gromit

27-02-2012, 10:37

Nice one Marco - I keep meaning to pop round Theo's to have an ecoutez to his TFS. :)

Oh...and congrats on the new toy. :)

Marco

27-02-2012, 10:38

I'm sorry Marco but it really isn't my cup of tea at all, I think it looks rather tacky and the rear panel is a real let down. If one is going to produce a dedicated music PC for megabucks then at least make the bloody effort to not to use a standard, cheap backplane on the rear of it. Incidentallly, the PS used in my PC was anything but cheap, it's a BeQuiet 650 watt'er and injects no noise into the system...

ALL digital kit injects noise into systems, especially ones using switch-mode PSUs.

It is the nature of the beast, primarily due to the switching noise they generate when digital to analogue signal conversion takes place - and there are no exceptions. As such, the TFS, just like my Sony CDP before it, benefited greatly from being plugged into my Tube Distinctions digital noise filter.

What you say is fine, but I couldn't really give a flying shite what the "backplane" is like (which you can't see from the front, anyway!) I'm judging the TFS purely on its sonic qualities and user friendliness, both of which are in the highest rank. Remember that this is the first time a computer audio set-up has remotely earned my respect for its sonic ability.

Why don't you bring your 'thingy' round for a listen sometime and we'll do a comparison? I'm always up for learning something new :cool:

Marco.

Marco

27-02-2012, 10:40

Nice one Marco - I keep meaning to pop round Theo's to have an ecoutez to his TFS. :)

Oh...and congrats on the new toy. :)

Cheers, Richard. At last some positivity!! :rolleyes:

Marco.

synsei

27-02-2012, 10:41

Marco, I don't doubt it sounds good, I just know I could build something better for myself for that kind of money... ;)

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 10:44

Glad you are enjoying it Marco. What's the max resolution it puts out?

Marco

27-02-2012, 10:45

I just know I could build something better for myself for that kind of money...

Jeezuz, you're like a bloody broken record, mate! :doh:

How on earth can you say that when you haven't even heard the TFS?? And remember, you're not making a commercial product, with all the costs which that entails. If you want to let me hear what you've built in comparison, I'll soon let you know what I think is better!

I'm afraid that people who make unqualified judgements on the sonic abilty of audio equipment really do my tits in (and the fact is, if you haven't heard the equipment in question, then you're unqualified to judge it, sonically). Such opinions, I'm afraid, are worthless. People who know me will know that I wouldn't be raving about this piece of kit, if it wasn't worth raving about.

I suggest now you've said your piece, Dave, that you keep quiet, unless you have something constructive to add, as you're now in danger of thread crapping and seriously pissing me off!! So if that's what you've set out to do, you've done a bloody good job!! :steam:

Marco.

Marco

27-02-2012, 10:48

Glad you are enjoying it Marco. What's the max resolution it puts out?

Not sure, Ali. That's one for Jason to answer. I'm sure he'll contribute to the thread in due course :)

Marco.

chris@panteg

27-02-2012, 10:59

How on earth can you say that, Dave, when you haven't heard it?? And remember, you're not making a commercial product, with all the costs which that entails!

I'm afraid that people who make unqualified judgements on the sonic abilty of audio equipment really do my tits in, and indeed such opinions are worthless.

I suggest now you've said your piece, Dave, you keep quiet, as you're now in danger of thread crapping and seriously pissing me off!! So if that's what you've set out to do, you've done a bloody good job!! :steam:

Marco.

I think if someone makes such a statement then they should prove it !

looks interesting :)

kininigin

27-02-2012, 11:01

Congrats marco,welcome to the computer audio age.I think it looks ok,not sure about the clear tubiing though,having said that as long as it sounds good,who cares.My last pair of monitors being an example,looked ugly as fook,but did i care? not one jot.

There is definitely a market for something like this,for those who wouldn't want to take on such a project.

Is it worth the cost? i don't know,but i'm sure if you say it beats your sony transport,which you rate highly,then it must be doing something right.

A quick question,to any that can answer,is it possible to use a linear psu in a 'normal' pc?

tubehunter

27-02-2012, 11:03

it handles 24bit 192khz files but if you are using your sony dac you will be limiting it to just 16bit 44.1/48khz.

have you tried it direct ino your pre with some hi rez stuff?

should sound really good

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 11:04

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 11:05

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:08

Nope, Dunc. I certainly don't mind trying that, although as you know, I would miss the sonic effect of my valve preamp - and you know how good the Croft is...

I may indeed buy a seperate modern DAC, simply for hi-res duties, as your point is valid, however the Sony DAC did considerably outperform the built-in one in the TFS, and so for my main purpose of ripping my CD collection to a hard-drive (it'll need to be much bigger than the standard one in the TFS), and streaming the music that way, the Sony would take some beating! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:09

I think if someone makes such a statement then they should prove it !

looks interesting :)

Too bloody right, mate. Words on a screen are cheap!!

Marco.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 11:11

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:13

BTW I agree with you mate, once you factor in the cost of manufacturing the acrylic case, (acrylic is not cheap) assembling the thing, setting it up and then allowing a profit margin for Richard and Jason, it's not that rediculous. They both have to make a living, and it's not as if they can benefit from the economy of scale by selling thousands coz they won't, it's a cottage industry like Croft or Stan's dacs. Consider the cost of Richard's other Statement products also, it's certainly in line with those.

Precisely, Ali. But those facts are almost NEVER taken into consideration by the 'I can build it better myself' brigade....! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Maybe Dave was just in a bad mood this morning? His rather inconsiderate comments were completely out of character. Who knows? We're all human...

Marco.

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:17

I assume it has analogue outs? just plug it into your pre mate.

Ah yes, sorry, I totally misunderstood that :doh:

Yup, I tried that briefly when Jason was here, and it did sound pretty good. I guess then I could use the in-built DAC in the TFS for streaming hi-res, and the Sony for playing my ripped files from CDs - sounds like a decent plan! :)

Marco.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 11:20

Marco, if you want a good dac for hi rez, try this one -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Finished-2496-AK4396-CS8416-DAC-R-core-Transformer-case-115V-230V-/110747160549?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item19c90b8fe5

Don't let the low price put you off, it saw off a MF M dac in my system.

bobbasrah

27-02-2012, 11:25

A quick question,to any that can answer,is it possible to use a linear psu in a 'normal' pc?

You can use one but it is physically a larger beast than the standard SMPS. There are many qualities of PSU available these days, just are there are cleaner motherboards.

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:27

Hi Darren,

Congrats marco,welcome to the computer audio age.I think it looks ok,not sure about the clear tubiing though,having said that as long as it sounds good,who cares.

Precisely. I'm sure that if I were to see the results of some people's DIY efforts, they'd be, erm, equally as 'hideous' to my eyes! ;)

There is definitely a market for something like this,for those who wouldn't want to take on such a project.

There most definitely is. People like me who have no interest or love whatsoever for computers or DIY, want a piss-easy user-interface that your granny could use, thus no hassle whatsoever, and a plug-in music streaming solution that sounds utterly sublime! And also who can afford to have the luxury of such convenience. I suspect that there are a few of us around :eyebrows:

Is it worth the cost? i don't know,but i'm sure if you say it beats your sony transport,which you rate highly,then it must be doing something right.

Indeed. Trust me, the TFS is sonically quite special. When it comes to modern audio equipment, I don't say that lightly.

Marco.

Clive

27-02-2012, 11:29

There are a number of ways to get good file-based sound; the TFS is a perfectly valid approach aimed at a specific market. There are parallels with DIY amps, valves ones in particular.

There are those who can build a valve for let's say £600 but to buy an off-the-shelf equivalent item you might have to pay £3,000.

Then you have usability - quite possibly the TFS can be used by anyone, not just some hifi geeks who don't mind a few quirks in name of music.

Thinking about the main approaches for high quality file-based sound are there serious contenders I've missed?

1) specialty developed/assembled computer purchased as a product

2) diy version of 1)

3) media player with sexy GUI for mac or pc (easy but not the best sound)

4) in-memory player (restricted functionality but good sound) - best with a dedicated PC

tubehunter

27-02-2012, 11:30

the tfs has a very nice sounding dac/sound card the Xonar Essence DAC, i use one myself on my upstairs pc.

i think nva have tweeked it a bit, not sure what

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:30

Darren

27-02-2012, 11:36

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:37

There are a number of ways to get good file-based sound; the TFS is a perfectly valid approach aimed at a specific market.

Then you have usability - quite possibly the TFS can be used by anyone, not just some hifi geeks who don't mind a few quirks in name of music.

Thinking about the main approaches for high quality file-based sound are there serious contenders I've missed?

1) specialty developed/assembled computer purchased as a product

Regarding the bit in bold - precisely! I ain't no computer or tech geek, and nor will I ever be.

1) (above) fits my needs exactly :)

Some of the Linn/Naim (the background I originally came from) computer audio users, with rather more expensive solutions (!) would get a big shock if they heard the TFS, as it has all the sonic traits thay they value (PRaT) - and then some!

Marco.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 11:37

Interesting, Ali. Noted. Would it be any better, though, than the in-built on in the TFS? That's the question...

Marco.

Only one way to find out mate. :)

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:40

Well.... I think it looks wonderful and I'd love to have a play with one myself. You are very fortunate Marco.

But, please dont tell me this means we have to put up with the madness of king Richard again....

Lol... Thanks, Darren. Richard and I get on very well now, and I have always had a lot of respect for his ability as an audio designer. Neither of us are ones to hold grudges.

However, we also both realise that on the platform of an audio forum, we're not ideally compatible ;)

Marco.

Marco

27-02-2012, 11:42

Only one way to find out mate. :)

True. I'll bookmark the link for reference. Right now, as you'll appreciate, I'm still getting my head properly around just what the TFS can do, so that later I can articulate it properly into words.

Marco.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 11:53

Aye, no worries mate. I do think this dac is very good, and unmatched in the SPPV stakes of anything else I've heard so far.

keiths

27-02-2012, 12:18

Nice one Marco. Seems like the ideal solution for you.

Welder

27-02-2012, 12:26

First, congratulations NVA. This would certainly seem to follow more closely my views regarding building a music server.
From what little I have been able to find out about the product there are still a few things that could be improved upon but overall, a far more versatile and well thought out product than most of the servers I've either heard or read about.

There have been a few comments about the price. When I costed my design, if built with new components the total cost came well above £2000 and that doesn't account for much of the experimentation and doesn't include any marketing.

Oh yes, congratulations Marco. Perhaps we'll read slightly less dismissive comments on file based audio from now on. Ripping your CD's is going to be a major task and you will have to do it if you take to file based because CD replay just wont cut it. :)

kininigin

27-02-2012, 12:38

You can use one but it is physically a larger beast than the standard SMPS. There are many qualities of PSU available these days, just are there are cleaner motherboards.

I'll look into it,to see if it's a route i want to take.

Cheers bob.

DSJR

27-02-2012, 13:12

Hey Marco, just to let you know that THIS Dave is very happy for you :) As you've said to me here, money isn't the deciding issue for you if you like the sound it makes - and I'm sure this unit can be upgraded in the future should Jason feel it appropriate. The thing is, many of us could learn from it and build simpler, less "elegant" alternatives if they felt that way inclined.

I'm just glad you've found a way into this way of delivering music that suits you and your system - and to the rest of you chaps, Marco's DAC was pretty damned good even before he had it "done up...:D"

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 13:13

Yup, it's a nice dac, I've heard it.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 13:13

Won't play hi rez though.

Clive

27-02-2012, 13:20

Won't play hi rez though.
Some of the hi rez stuff is stunning and worth being able to play, so a hi rez dac is important.

Some of the hi rez stuff either shows up tape saturation on old recordings (plus other issues) and exposes problems with new recordings.

When it's good it's magnificent!

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 13:25

Yes agreed, though I still think the original mastering is more important. You can't polish a turd.

StanleyB

27-02-2012, 13:26

Clive

27-02-2012, 13:29

Yes agreed, though I still think the original mastering is more important. You can't polish a turd.
Yes, that's what I had in mind. Take Rumours....some parts of it in hi rez show how the original recording is screwed. Ie the last 15 secs of The Chain. It's better as redbook because it's lower rez! Hi rez material is expensive, there's needs to be a way to check it's quality. It's hard to return a download!

Sorry for the digression.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 13:34

Yes agreed Clive, I have both versions of that album. If you like FM, I bought the DVD of "The Dance" and a mate ripped the soundtrack for me. A great sound. DVD's are a good source of hi rez stuff.

Darren

27-02-2012, 13:34

Aye, no worries mate. I do think this dac is very good, and unmatched in the SPPV stakes of anything else I've heard so far.

Hi Ali,
That DAC seems like very good value. Can I ask what you have tried it against? How quickly did yours arrive?

Marco

27-02-2012, 13:38

The "elephant in the room" question is whether Richard will appreciate Marco's positive comments on the TFS, or see it as the death knell of the new product. I look forward to that topic on the Subjectivist :eyebrows:.

Why should he think that, Stan? I should think that it'd be the exact opposite (in fact, Richard is more than happy), as let's face facts, without me being too immodest, stuff that I love and recommend sells and thus tends to become successful. Just look at how popular modded Techies are now ;)

I certainly can't take all the credit for that (no chance), but I've definitely successfully planted a few seeds in people's heads, if the contents of what's written here and elsewhere now about modifying SL-1200/1210s, not to mention my PM inbox, are anything to go by!

A few years ago, no serious audiophile would've even considered owning an SL-1200... I predict a similarly bright future for the TFS, in the sonically discerning non-DIY computer audio market. And there are plans afoot to make the TFS even better, so watch this space!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Clive

27-02-2012, 13:40

Yes agreed Clive, I have both versions of that album. If you like FM, I bought the DVD of "The Dance" and a mate ripped the soundtrack for me. A great sound. DVD's are a good source of hi rez stuff.
Good point about DVDs, I'll look out for some charity shop ones.

I was comparing redbook, 24-96 and vinyl over the weekend, specifically with the chain as I wanted to understand the recording issue as best I could. An interesting exercise though I can't know how the mixes really compare.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 13:47

I've heard it against in my system - 7520, Valab two - box 1543 dac, Audio Note Dac Zero and the new Musical Fidelity dac. Better than all except probably the AN, which was not really better just different ( I like valves and how they sound). My main dac uses the AK4396 board used in the Chinese dac with a valve output stage which was built for me by Nick. See the thread here -

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13204

I use the valve one for music, and have one of the finished ebay ones on the end of my Sky box. It runs the valve version surprisingly close and is easy to upgrade, try swapping the opamp for OPA627 - the opamp is socketed on the board.

There is a marathon thread on diy audio about this dac, and full set of instructions for upgrading all the board components should you wish to do so.

Welder

27-02-2012, 13:48

Comparing MFSL to some of the so called Hi Res remasters should put a wry grin on your face.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 13:49

Good point about DVDs, I'll look out for some charity shop ones.

I was comparing redbook, 24-96 and vinyl over the weekend, specifically with the chain as I wanted to understand the recording issue as best I could. An interesting exercise though I can't know how the mixes really compare.

Good idea. Just check the back as not all are hi rez and it usually says on the back or the disc what the resolution is.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 13:50

Comparing MFSL to some of the so called Hi Res remasters should put a wry grin on your face.

Yes, can be very good, as can SHM-CD. As I said, I think the original mastering is more important.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 13:51

Darren, sorry forgot to say, can't remember for sure but I think it was about 10 days.

Theo

27-02-2012, 13:52

The "elephant in the room" question is whether Richard will appreciate Marco's positive comments on the TFS, or see it as the death knell of the new product. I look forward to that topic on the Subjectivist :eyebrows:.

Well, the TFS has never been marketed proactively, apart from (I believe) 5 users talking about it on the Subjectivist forum over the past 12 months, and a lot of that chat surrounds best practice in getting the most out of the beast (Jason helped me out enormously in tweaking mine). I think that there is now a genuine opportunity - via this forum - for a wider audience to at least be curious as to what it provides.

If you already are a keen digital diy-er, this probably isn't for you. If you are happy with the standard PC or Mac/DAC solution, you might not be interested. There are those who have yet to tread the water in digital streaming/downloads, and this purpose-built sound quality-focussed device might be a great introduction. It's just another alternative: it just happens to be one that sounds great and ticks my boxes.

Marco

27-02-2012, 13:57

There are those who have yet to tread the water in digital streaming/downloads, and this purpose-built sound quality-focussed device might be a great introduction. It's just another alternative: it just happens to be one that sounds great and ticks my boxes.

Me too, and what you say, in a nutshell, is the reality of the situation. There are many people like me who were holding back and waiting for the right product to come along.

Also, AoS reaches a worldwide audience, and what's written here about the TFS will most certainly not do it any harm... It's rather interesting that we currrently have 224 people on line, and most of them are reading this thread! Also, look how many hits this thread has had in the short time since it's been 'born' ;)

I will always champion what I consider as genuinely superb audio equipment and ancillaries; especially ones which are high in SPPV (and that's SPPV based on the cost of commercial products, not those from the DIY arena).

Marco.

Welder

27-02-2012, 14:05

Mileend

27-02-2012, 14:19

FWIW I own the TFS prototype ( 'Nexus') that I bought from Jason. The TFS is the production version with several upgrades the main one being the dual NVA linear power supplies. One powers the motherboard and the second the Asus dac/soundcard. I believe Jason also tweaked the Asus with different opamps.
It is my first server and allowed me to happily ditch my cd player which it beat by a considerable margin. For me cd is a dead medium not that I ever accepted it fully anyway much preferring vinyl. I now use a stand alone dac but having said that the Asus gels well as a complete music server/dac. Jason is a very helpful guy especially if you are not techy and are intrepid about getting into computer audio. It is the most analogue computer audio system I have heard and deserves a lot more recognition and sales.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 14:21

Perhaps a cheaper version with just a digital out could be produced?

Marco

27-02-2012, 14:27

Hi Mervyn.

FWIW I own the TFS prototype ( 'Nexus') that I bought from Jason. The TFS is the production version with several upgrades the main one being the dual NVA linear power supplies. One powers the motherboard and the second the Asus dac/soundcard. I believe Jason also tweaked the Asus with different opamps.
It is my first server and allowed me to happily ditch my cd player which it beat by a considerable margin. For me cd is a dead medium not that I ever accepted it fully anyway much preferring vinyl. I now use a stand alone dac but having said that the Asus gels well as a complete music server/dac. Jason is a very helpful guy especially if you are not techy and are intrepid about getting into computer audio. It is the most analogue computer audio system I have heard and deserves a lot more recognition and sales.

Well said, especially the last bit!

It is *precisely* the "analogue" nature (and that's analogue when done well, not when euphonically coloured and just 'wrong'), of its music reproduction that is so different from any other file-based system I've heard, where it often exhibits an overly explicit 'in yer face', tonally thin sound, that gets on your nerves after about 10 minutes.

The TFS is nothing like that; it's like listening to mint condition audiophile pressings of 180g vinyl, played on a top-notch T/T, only with no surface noise whatsoever - awesome stuff! There is simply no hint of any digital artifice.

This is the only music streamer I've heard which has got the fundamental building blocks of the music right - and the huge linear PSUs employed, no doubt are playing a big part in that.

Quite simply, this is digital audio for those who love vinyl at its absolute best. As such, vinyl diehards and/or computer audio sceptics, willing to lose their ingrained prejudices would do well to hear just what the TFS is capable of, in conjunction with a top-notch DAC and/or stock DAC playing hi-res files.

The comparison with my Techy, incidentally, has been very interesting. I'll go into that in more detail later :cool:

Marco.

Welder

27-02-2012, 14:29

keiths

27-02-2012, 14:31

I've just looked at the price on NVA's ebay listing.

I was quite surprised - I had it in my head that it was way more expensive. £1800 doesn't really seem that bad for this considering that it's a commercial product. It's maybe not the way I'd go if I was fortunate enough to be able to spend that sort of money on a digital front-end, but for those who aren't computer-savvy, or simply don't want the hassle, I feel it's a very good solution - especially as the sound quality is reputed to be top-notch.

Oh, and I think it looks great too :ner:

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 14:34

I do wish people would stop saying things like "It is the most analogue computer audio system I have heard". :doh:

If a digital system sounds like analogue replay then its broken. The only differences you should be hearing that would suggest analogue replay on a decent system are things like needle tracking error/noise, bearing rumble, tape hiss etc.

While such stupid analogies keep getting bandied about digital replay is going to get represented as the second best and it just isn't true.

How about saying my record player almost sounds as good as the best digital. ;)

But the problem is IMHO that vinyl can still produce the best sounds. Certainly all the "oh my god" moments we've had at our Owston get-togethers have all been from vinyl systems. OK, perhaps I just haven't heard a good enough file system yet, but there are quite a few folk bringing file based systems to the Owston do's. I think it's still got a ways to go. It is getting there though. IMHO.

Marco

27-02-2012, 14:37

I do wish people would stop saying things like "It is the most analogue computer audio system I have heard". :doh:

If a digital system sounds like analogue replay then its broken.

Sorry, John. We've been here before, and I strongly disagree. Jason heard my Techy, in comparison with the TFS/Sony DAC, and knows *exactly* where I'm coming from when I say that.

Trust me, you would too, if you heard it!! ;)

Marco.

P.S Exactly, Ali!

John

27-02-2012, 14:41

I like both approaches Computer audio has really moved on so much in the last few years and opens a lot of different possibilties to hear music and for me that is the key I have more access to music
Marco i think it is brillant you got into the whole computer audio side

Welder

27-02-2012, 14:49

I'm beating a dead horse here :doh:

I don't disagree that a top quality vinyl system still probably leads the field in audiophile sound reproduction and I am quite willing to accept that for many, analogue produces the more pleasing sound. I believe I've said this on numerous occasions.
But, it is a matter of preference and has nothing to do with transparency, accuracy, or any of the other meaningless audiophile terms that get bandied about.

There is no digital sound. Ones and zero's don't have a sound. It's data!
Fine if people prefer one over another but these witless comparisons just demonstrate ignorance of the digital replay process.
It will eventually grind to halt thankfully as more and more analogue enthusiasts actually sit down and listen to a decent quality digital system without dragging along all their preconceptions.

Clive

27-02-2012, 15:03

Audioman

27-02-2012, 15:15

Yes, that's what I had in mind. Take Rumours....some parts of it in hi rez show how the original recording is screwed. Ie the last 15 secs of The Chain. It's better as redbook because it's lower rez! Hi rez material is expensive, there's needs to be a way to check it's quality. It's hard to return a download!

Sorry for the digression.

I know this is a digital thread but Rumours in high res is fantastic - just get the Hoffman/Gray 45rpm USA vinyl. I think as been said before 'it's all in the mastering'.

As for the TFS I'm glad Marco has found something great sounding. My view is it could do with loosing some unecessary physical adornments. It also appears to lack visual indication of track selection as per music server or PC ?
I would also want such a device to accomodate internet radio. If the on board DAC could be tweaked it may possibly rival the Sony on all material.

Looks like you need a monitor/ipad/smartphone for control and display. Not a bad price for a commercial product but there are extras to pay for.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NVA-TFS-Computer-Hifi-Digital-Streamer-/220905606633?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item336f000de9

Marco

27-02-2012, 15:18

Let's face it, records decks are not going to get much better than the very best achieve today. They've been developed for several decades, there will be refinements but the technology is pretty stable and capable of producing lifelike sound. File-based audio is only just past it's early development stages and is at a point now where it bears comparison to highly developed record decks. These points make it reasonable IMO to use analogue as a benchmark. And yes, tape can be even better!

Too right, Clive!

John, digital *does* have an intrinsic sound, which is attributable to many factors. Why else do various types of DAC chips sound so completely different, when implemented in their respective correct ways?

Also, the comparison between my mulit-bit TDA-1541-based Sony DAC, and the bitstream Burr-Browns of the DAC inside the TFS, reveals very distinctive sonic differences between both. Such listening experiences really are rather enlightening. Much depends, too, on how digital music reproduction is implemented, and the sonic impact of the 'infrastructure', in terms of components, used around it - not to mention the MASSIVE effect PSU quality has.

One major difference in the intrinsic 'sound' between digital and analogue is the 'hardness' that switiching noise imparts on the former, giving it a relentless and 'in yer face' quality (in comparison with the best of analogue), *until* that noise is successfully filtered out. Indeed, this was most obvious before I plugged the TFS into my TD digital noise filter. The effect with my Sony CDP is exactly the same - and remember that it also uses huge linear PSUs! But that's not the issue here..

Analogue equipment possesses no such switching noise, which is why my T/T sounds markedly worse going through the same filter that transforms the sound of my CDP, DAC, and now the TFS. Go figure.

I like you John, but I don't think you realise that you're often 'dragging along your preconceptions', regarding certain issues that you appear to have a rigid mindset in, the exact same way as you're accusing others from the 'analogue camp' of doing! ;)

Marco.

MartinT

27-02-2012, 15:30

I do wish people would stop saying things like "It is the most analogue computer audio system I have heard". :doh:

Methinks you're forgetting something fundamental. Music and soundwaves are analogue.

Converting them to digital and then back to analogue is a non-natural process.

Marco

27-02-2012, 15:40

Indeed, Martin! And you can hear it, until the effect is minimised to the point of insignificance, such is the case when the best digital equipment is used in conjunction with effective noise filtering.

However, the fact that noise intrinsic to digital music reproduction can never be fully eradicated, is the reason why, as superb as the TFS/Sony DAC combo is (and it is really, really good), my heavily-modded Techy (playing the finest audiophile vinyl pressings) still currently edges ahead :)

Marco.

Joe

27-02-2012, 15:41

Methinks you're forgetting something fundamental. Music and soundwaves are analogue.

Converting them to digital and then back to analogue is a non-natural process.

<Heads off to join Amish community>

Welder

27-02-2012, 15:42

I think the issue is getting confused here. ;)

Yup, comparing the sound of Dacs and or other components in the replay chain may indeed be valid and an analogue and digital replay chain can indeed sound different.
It all gets a bit more complex when you play digitally recorded vinyl. Given, according to some at least, the differences between analogue and digital are obvious then these people should have absolutely no problem identifying a digitally sourced recording on any medium.
This certainly hasn't been a resounding success in my experience.
So, lets not get the source and replay chain mixed up.

Regarding my preconceptions. Of course, I have to accept this may be true but bear in mind it wasn't that long ago I was all Vinyl and viewed digital with the same scepticism as many here.
It was only after sitting down and listening, hopefully with minimum preconceptions, but some will have been present, to a first class digital replay system that I had to finally acknowledge it beat my Vinyl system to a pulp.

Perhaps my Vinyl system wasn't what some would consider first class, but a London Decca Gold with Hadcock 228 built on a custom Thorens TD 160S produced a fairly decent sound against the vast majority of turntables I had heard.
Add to this I decided to sell my entire record collection, record deck which i had spent years modding, my SUT, Pre amp etc etc and start from scratch, I would argue that my preconceptions didn't stop me taking what was at the time some very painful decisions based purely on quality of sound.

Welder

27-02-2012, 15:47

Methinks you're forgetting something fundamental. Music and soundwaves are analogue.

Converting them to digital and then back to analogue is a non-natural process.

Martin, the whole audio replay chain is a very non-natural process when one considers music is the final objective. ;)
Suppose we don't do any conversion Martin and stay digital right up to the transducers?

Marco

27-02-2012, 15:51

I think the issue is getting confused here. ;)

Nope, not really. What are you views on this, which I wrote earlier:

One major difference in the intrinsic 'sound' between digital and analogue is the 'hardness' that switiching noise impacts on the former, giving it a relentless and 'in yer face' quality (in comparison to the best of analogue), *until* that noise is successfully filtered out. Indeed, this was most obvious before I plugged the TFS into my TD digital noise filter. The effect with my Sony CDP is exactly the same - and remember that it also uses huge linear PSUs! But that's not the issue here..

Analogue equipment possesses no such switching noise, which is why my T/T sounds markedly worse going through the same filter that transforms the sound of my CDP, DAC, and now the TFS. Go figure.

It is the switching noise I'm referring to above which defines the 'sound' of digital data (such as has been described) when converted to an analogue audio signal. Therefore, the situation is not as 'cut & dried' as you think.

Marco.

Welder

27-02-2012, 15:52

Still getting shortfalls in the conversion chain confused with digital as a medium here Marco.

I know it seems knit picking but its important.

Marco

27-02-2012, 15:57

Nope, I don't think so. I'm still waiting on your comments on what I've quoted in post #88, above.

Come on, let's be 'avin ya! Or are you not able to give a proper answer? ;)

Marco.

Welder

27-02-2012, 15:57

What happens for example when we take more samples?
Suppose we sample the waveform well beyond 44.1 and have greater bit depth?
Extend this to infinite samples. Its still digital.

DaveK

27-02-2012, 16:05

Hi guys,
Aren't we in danger of getting sucked into a similar irresolvable vortex here as the subjective/objective one - let it lie and each listen to your own music :).
Now, to get back nearer to the topic, can anyone advise me where I can get more info on the offboard linear PSUs for such a beast please?
I bet Marco never thought he'd see the day when he was trying to catch me up on the subject of audio hardware :lol: . I have a self built HTPC with the same motherboard and sound card as this, connected to the same DAC that Ali referred to - c'mon Marco, you're behind the times!!;)
BTW I'm very happy with my set up and see it as money very well spent.
Cheers,
Dave.

Welder

27-02-2012, 16:10

Nope, not really. What are you views on this, which I wrote earlier:

It is the switching noise I'm referring to above which defines the 'sound' of digital data (such as has been described) when converted to an analogue audio signal. Therefore the situation is not as 'cut & dried' as you think.

Marco.

I cant actually hear this Marco.
I can hear less well implemented Dacs but whether that is because of switching noise I couldn't say.
However, this has more to do with conversion than digital source as such.
Maybe you and others can hear the difference between a good quality digital source and an analogue source. I can only refer you to comments you and Martin and others have made elsewhere that in your current systems digital and analogue replay were virtually indistinguishable.

DaveK is right.
I'll leave it here and just write that I hope your music centre gives you as much pleasure as your record player Marco and maybe you'll even develop an interest in computers.

John

27-02-2012, 16:16

I understand what John is saying data is data what is changing is how we get hold of that data and transfer it through the audio chain; this is where the differences between DACS lies. Also the approach towards digital playback seems to a real key to good sounds

Paul Hynes

27-02-2012, 16:23

Richard D,

Well done. It’s nice to hear that British cottage industry can still produce exceptional products.

For those questioning the cost of the TFS, which IMHO is low, if you were to factor in the time you spend researching and building a DIY version at a reasonable rate of pay you would be surprised how much it actually costs you to make. Getting it to work at the quality level the TFS is working may also be harder than you think.

DaveK,

The SR7EHD that Marco uses on his Techie can be configured to power motherboards. The multi-rail version can also provide galvanically isolated independent rails for hard drives, sound cards etc. PM me if you want more info.

Regards
Paul

Marco

27-02-2012, 16:38

Hi John.

I cant actually hear this Marco.

That's only because the effect has never been demonstrated to you. Should you ever make it up to mine, then I'll gladly enlighten you. You often don't realise that something is there until it's gone! :)

In fact, if you can make it to Scalford on Sunday, I'll do it there, as I'm taking my TD digital noise filter with me. I'll also be able to let others analyse the same effect. Honestly, it's not a difficult one to hear!

I can hear less well implemented Dacs but whether that is because of switching noise I couldn't say.

I can also hear the effect of inferior and/or less well-implemented DACs, but what I'm referring to has got nothing to do with that. It's an entirely seperate issue. This is noise which is intrinsic to digital music replay, after data conversion has occurred.

However, this has more to do with conversion than digital source as such.

Indeed, but the data source is not an audio 'entity' without the subsequent conversion. It's the absence of the noise generated by the associated switching that defines why good analogue equipment doesn't possess the sonic 'hardness' of even the best digital gear.

The TFS sounds so remarkably 'analogue-like', when connected to a very high quality DAC, because of the attention to detail paid by Jason, its designer, in terms of 'noise management' throughout its design, and also when switching noise has been effectively filtered out by an appropriate device, making the sound that the TFS produces comparable with the best analogue sources.

Maybe you and others can hear the difference between a good quality digital source and an analogue source. I can only refer you to comments you and Martin and others have made elsewhere that in your current systems digital and analogue replay were virtually indistinguishable.

The term "virtually indistinguishable" is of course subjective. I'd say that it was very close. However, my Techy, playing the finest audiophile vinyl pressings, from the likes of Pure Pleasure and Mo-Fi, is still about 5% ahead of the TFS/Sony DAC, playing the finest (non high-res) digital recordings.

But it's that final 5% (the stuff that is hard and usually expensive to achieve) which unlocks the true magic in the best hi-fi systems.

I'll leave it here and just write that I hope your music centre gives you as much pleasure as your record player Marco and maybe you'll even develop an interest in computers.

No chance of the latter, matey, but thanks for your kind sentiments. The TFS is proving to be somewhat of a revelation! :cool:

Marco.

Welder

27-02-2012, 16:56

I'll be making a point of hearing the TFS....given its an area that very much interests me.
Not many products these days that stimulate my interest.

As Paul mentions, getting a digital music centre to sound right isn't as straight forward as some of the bits are bits advocates would have us believe...in my experience anyway.

I think I've heard some excellent DIY music severs so comparison to a commercially available product at what I also think is a reasonable price might prove interesting.
It's recent exposure to a decent Vinyl replay system I'm lacking. :eyebrows:

Post conversion noise filters, yep some are very good......some not so ;)

Good luck to Richard with the TFS is what I think. Perhaps more people will consider this product rather than some of the rather mediocre and overpriced offerings from Bryston and Linn for example.
It's a shame Richard no longer posts here because I've got some questions. ;)

Marco

27-02-2012, 16:59

He'll certainly welcome such questions here, John:

http://thehifisubjectivist.noadforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=341&start=130&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

So, sign-up and offer them to him :)

Bear in mind though, that Richard played no part in the computer (OS) software side of the TFS design. For that you should speak with Jason, who posts here (and elsewhere) as 'Figlet108'. You can PM him. Richard was responsible only for the aesthetics and PSU design.

I also wish to stress that Richard makes no money from sales of the TFS, nor has he set the retail price. This is Jason's business. Richard only advises and helps with anything technical within his particular area of expertise.

Marco.

aquapiranha

27-02-2012, 18:29

Jeez Marco, you will be getting one of them there magic electric picture boxes next! :lol:

So, essentially the TFS is a PC runing W7 and JRiver with an Asus sound card? The obvious difference being the PSU of course. Can anyone shed any light on which board is in use here? I imagine it may be an Atom board?

I have been experimenting with Boxee and XBMC running on Linux lately and I have to say I am very impressed with the software at least.

Good news Marco, I am glad you are enjoying yourself! :)

Welder

27-02-2012, 19:07

Thanks for the link Marco.

I must admit,I was a bit surprised at the Win7 JRiver combo.
It's the OS and hardware tweaks that interest me and I cant see these getting discussed.

Cant go wrong with the glowing Perspex tubes. ;)

jon1

27-02-2012, 19:12

Marco enjoy it mate:thumbsup::)

jon

Rare Bird

27-02-2012, 19:39

Marco has joined the 21st century :lol: WELL DONE SIR!!!

:rolleyes:

sq225917

27-02-2012, 19:52

Where has a price been mentioned? I haven't even asked yet...

'Value', for me, in audio is ultimately judged by the sonic prowess of the kit in question, and so far, the TFS has ousted my £2k highly-modified Sony X-777ES CDP, for transport duties.

Marco.

You see, that's where you are going wrong, wasting money on the transport- what you need is an impervious dac not a bodged and bootstraped transport that mollycoddles a less than technically excellent digital stage.

Truth is you can bolt any output stage that finds your favour to almost any dac chip and receiver these days, there's very little point spending big money on a transport unless you simply have to survive with some arcane DAC.

Knowing you it's probably the latter.... ;-)

Marco

27-02-2012, 20:02

Not quite sure how to take that, Simon, or what you're *really* trying to say? :scratch:

First of all, the Sony X-777ES CDP features one of the finest transport mechanisms ever built. Testament to that is the fact that it's still working after 25 years of continual use!

Secondly, my highly-modified Sony DAS-R1 DAC is far from being "arcane", in a sonic sense, otherwise it wouldn't significantly outperform the (very good) modern DAC built into the TFS.

Fancy sometime comparing the Sony to your Weiss? I'm more than up for that! ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

27-02-2012, 20:07

arcane

Pronunciation: /ɑːˈkeɪn/
adjective
understood by few; mysterious or secret:

Marco

27-02-2012, 20:17

Indeed, that's the dictionary definition, but given what Simon wrote prior to that, I'm not sure that's necessarily what he meant....

Marco.

Alex_UK

27-02-2012, 20:22

Nice one Marco - welcome to the world of File Based Audio. :)

I think this is a great product for those that don't want to build their own, or want something to put in the rack to compliment a proper hifi - and as you know, I'm already sold on the sonic benefits of eliminating an optical drive from the replay chain...

Enjoy!

Marco

27-02-2012, 20:33

Cheers, dude. It's getting even better as it's being used more! Let's make the difference 3% now between the TFS/Sony and the Techy :eek:

Marco.

StanleyB

27-02-2012, 20:37

I'm already sold on the sonic benefits of eliminating a optical drive from the replay chain...
Don't be too hasty. For serious listening I still prefer to spin a CD. Music is ripped from a CD at a far higher speed than the disc would normally be played at. I am not convinced that the ripped data is always the same as the slowly played data. The Reed-Solomon error correction employed in a CDP during playback is lacking in documentation as far as its operation is concerned during the CD ripping process. So I am not satisfied that the R-S truth table is adhered to during a rip.

Welder

27-02-2012, 20:38

Awwww, comon Marco, what's 3% between enthusiasts. ;)

Marco

27-02-2012, 20:41

Is that what you say to the missus when you're, erm, 'found wanting'? :lol: ;)

Marco.

Welder

27-02-2012, 20:52

Me! found wanting! :eek:
You've got me muddled up with someone else mate. Bear in mind I don't object to cheating :lol:

sq225917

27-02-2012, 22:14

Darren

27-02-2012, 22:17

Cheers, dude. It's getting even better as it's being used more! Let's make the difference 3% now between the TFS/Sony and the Techy :eek:

Marco.

So, your digital and analogue front ends are now on the same rung of the performance ladder? Add in the much higher availability of new music on digital media, the superb convenience and accessibility and the much lower cost of achieving this level of performance and you have to smile about the future of digital music at home.

Marco

27-02-2012, 22:34

Marco you're welcome whenever you like, open Invitation. The Mrs is away this weekend from early Thursday AM. Pop up if you like, bring dac and technics. I think the Kuzma is finalised, physically and electrically, if not visually.

Too near to Scalford, Simon, and I've got friends coming up before then. However, we'll defo do it sometime after Scalford.

I think you'll be surprised at what both the Techy and Sony DAC are capable of, sonically.

Trust me, I don't use kit just because it's "arcane" ;)

Marco.

Ali Tait

27-02-2012, 22:34

Yes indeed, have to agree. (with Darren's post)

aquapiranha

27-02-2012, 22:38

Marco

27-02-2012, 22:43

Hi Darren,

So, your digital and analogue front ends are now on the same rung of the performance ladder?

Definitely not far off each other now!

Add in the much higher availability of new music on digital media, the superb convenience and accessibility and the much lower cost of achieving this level of performance and you have to smile about the future of digital music at home.

Sure, but not everything on the market has the performance capability of the TFS. And remember that, hi-res files aside, I'm using it in conjunction with the best of old digital technology, in order to achieve optimal sound quality, to my ears.

But, it certainly does open up a whole new world of music - even Spotify now sounds pretty good! :cool:

Marco.

Darren

27-02-2012, 23:24

Sure, but not everything on the market has the performance capability of the TFS.

I'm sure that's right but, I think you can do great digital sound really well now on a budget. Especially with a squeezebox touch or laptop and a good DAC
My vinyl collection, precious though it is, is essentially stuck in a time warp ( I aint paying £25 for new vinyl)and Im totally addicted to new rock, pop and dance music.... so digital is the way fowards and using downloads I can try before I invest in physical media.

To be honest I feel spoiled as a music lover. More now than ever before.

PS. I'll give you a few quid for that old jap turntable of yours. You wont be using it soon. - just remember my offer.

sq225917

27-02-2012, 23:39

Too near to Scalford, Simon, and I've got friends coming up before then. However, we'll defo do it sometime after Scalford.

I think you'll be surprised at what both the Techy and Sony DAC are capable of, sonically.

Trust me, I don't use kit just because it's "arcane" ;)

Marco.

I have a fair idea what the techie can deliver, less so with the Sony. It'll be interesting to see how either of them stack up against current offerings.

Paul Hynes

27-02-2012, 23:45

Marco,

I think you might be ready for a few SL1200 internal regulator modules. Damn, my Lagavulin has run out so I will have to cheers you with Guinness. :cool:

Regards
Paul

Marco

27-02-2012, 23:47

Absolutely, Simon. I always view these comparisons as being 'no-lose' situations. If the kit I'm using 'loses', then I simply upgrade, by buying what to my ears beats it. Simples!

If the opposite happens, then at least I know that I'm not deaf! :lol:

Besides, I'm really looking forward to hearing your Kuzma. Now *that* truly is a top-notch piece of kit!! :stalks:

Marco.

Marco

27-02-2012, 23:51

Marco,

I think you might be ready for a few SL1200 internal regulator modules. Damn, my Lagavulin has run out so I will have to cheers you with Guinness. :cool:

Lol, Paul. Tell me more :)

Marco.

Paul Hynes

28-02-2012, 00:11

If your deck has settled after all the recent fettling it’s time for some more upgrading. Let me know when you are ready for this and I will drop a set of modules into the build schedule and confer with Anthony about a time scale for the work he will need to do. It looks like the TFS will keep you happily occupied while the deck is with Anthony.

I’ve ordered some more Lagavulin. It’s nicer than Guinness IMHO of course.

I congratulated Richard earlier but had not read the history of the TFS. I should have included Jason. Sorry for the oversight Jason. Good work from both of you.

Regards
Paul

Marco

28-02-2012, 00:21

Hi Paul,

If your deck has settled after all the recent fettling it’s time for some more upgrading. Let me know when you are ready for this and I will drop a set of modules into the build schedule and confer with Anthony about a time scale for the work he will need to do.

Nice one, mate. Go ahead and do what you need to do! :)

It looks like the TFS will keep you happily occupied while the deck is with Anthony.

Oh, most definitely. I could leave my T/T with Anthony, for 'surgery', after the Scalford show at the weekend, as he's coming up to my place. Therefore it would save me making a journey all the way down to South Wales just to deliver the T/T (no way would I trust any courier!)

I’ve ordered some more Lagavulin. It’s nicer than Guinness IMHO of course.

Lol - indeed. I think that the Lagavulin is on me, mate! ;)

I congratulated Richard earlier but had not read the history of the TFS. I should have included Jason. Sorry for the oversight Jason. Good work from both of you.

It's definitely a team effort. The TFS is the culmination of both of their respective design skill sets. You must try and hear one sometime - I think that you'd be very impressed with what you heard :cool:

Marco.

docfoster

28-02-2012, 01:26

Done a bit of digging and it looks like this board may form the basis of the TFS (of course they may have modified it) notice the RCA's. I can see the word ASUS through the grille in the top of the unit!

http://www.bit-tech.net/modding/2010/07/09/how-to-build-a-touchscreen-all-in-one-pc/2

http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2010/07/how-to-build-a-touchscreen-all-in-one-pc/at3iont-i-rearios.jpg

http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2010/07/how-to-build-a-touchscreen-all-in-one-pc/at3iont-i-overview-300x292.jpg

The search continues! :)

Yes. I believe that's the one. I think I've got the box for the board in the attic somewhere from when Jason delivered it last year. I'm not sure if the motherboard has been modded. It's the op amps on the Xonar soundcard that I seem to remember Jason said he'd played with. Somehow.

Also, don't think this has been mentioned here - the TFS has a Bluray drive (AnyDVD or similar needs to be installed to give JRiver access to bluray, or one can try a stand alone like PowerDVD (which I found to be terrible)). And it plays Blurays brilliantly. JRiver can rip them to the SSD too, so playback can be silent.

I control via my TV, using a mouse or the included remote control. Smartphone/tablet control is I think possible.

All in all it sounds fanastically realistic and is a very user friendly solution for a low-tech music lover like me. I now enjoy it more than I do my lovely PL-71 / Decca SG combo.

Importantly, Jason's after sales care is fab. Though may be he'll need to take on staff if this enthusiasm continues!

I'm really pleased that Jason's NVA product is getting some recognition on the big boy forums. It deserves to do well.

Marco

28-02-2012, 08:53

Thanks for the info, Doc, and good to see you here. Btw, what's your proper name, matey? We like referring to each other by our first names here. Also, where are you from? :)

Marco.

jostber

28-02-2012, 09:16

Ali Tait

28-02-2012, 09:18

£1800 I believe.

Clive

28-02-2012, 09:19

What is the cost of the TFS?
Seems like it's £1,800.

It would be interesting to compare JPLAYmini with it, even though the approaches are different, I suspect the end results are similar.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 09:46

Hi folks.

Only just managed to get online after a v. busy yesterday and er.. we're already on 13 pages. That's somewhat intimidating.

First a great big thanks to Marco and Del for their wonderful hospitality - Del's cooking was delicious and a big treat (including the doggy bag :)), and Marco's system was simply stunning. It was hard to tear myself away.

I appreciate the kind and supportive comments in this thread and believe it or not I very much welcome the negative comments and criticisms (as long as it's not rude and nasty). I'm from the school of tough love and I very much want to keep improving the designs and implementations of products and make sure I haven't missed a trick.

I will try and address the questions so far in the thread throughout the day (although it's another busy one for me) and will definitely address the question of price, and future product plans.

Jason

jostber

28-02-2012, 09:56

Thanks, Jason. Do you have a spec sheet for the TFS? And are the glass sylinders purely visual or do they have a function?

Marco

28-02-2012, 10:04

Hi Jason,

Nice one, matey. Glad you've joined us. There will be plenty of questions for you to answer now, I suspect! It was great meeting you on Saturday. Del and I really enjoyed your company, so we must do it again soon :cool:

Glad you enjoyed me 'ol Dansette. The system you heard is the culmination of years of listening and fine-tuning, and so it does what I enjoy with reproducing recorded music.

Most importantly, a BIG thanks to you for introducing me to the TFS. It has succeeded to do what no other music streamer has managed so far: open up a whole world of new music to me, with the minimum of fuss, *AND* make my fav choons sound more stunning than ever!! :youtheman: :respect:

Marco.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 14:50

Do you have a spec sheet for the TFS?
Hi Paul,
not sure the exact specs you're interested in, but here are some and you can let me know if it answers your question:

Mobo: Asus AT3IONT-I Deluxe (as some have commented already)
Proc: Dual core Intel Atom 330
FSB: 533MHz
Graphics: NVIDIA ION™ Graphics Processors
Memory: 4 GB, DDR3 1066/800
Storage: 128GB SSD (provision for 2 more SSDs - so 3 in total)
Drives: Slot-loading Sony bluray drive with the usual DVD-RW facilities etc
Connectivity: GB ethernet, wireless n, bluetooth
Ports: HDMI, VGA, USB
Audio Ports: RCA analogue, Coax/Optical digital
Other Features: Analogue in for the odd needle drop; a half decent headphone amp built in.

This level of spec means that, (with the 2 cores in particular), playing music while at the same time doing other stuff like creating playlists, ripping CD's, researching music on the internet, downloading hi-res files etc etc, can be done simultaneously without hiccup.

The significance of the level of graphics spec means that full HD video and blurays play with ease.

The power supply contains two separate dual rail supplies both with 300VA transformers.

The whole system is low power and passively cooled - so no physical or electrical noise and no moving parts (other when ripping CDs)

Software:
Windows 7 Pro - this allows remote control via a PC or Mac laptop using RDC
JRiver is the software player / organiser
dbpoweramp is the CD ripper

I don't bundle bluray playing software as most pefer to use their own or won't make use of it. FWIW I am happy with PowerDVD 11 Ultra, although I know Ben (docfoster) didn't like it and uses something else.

What else do you want to know?

And are the glass cylinders purely visual or do they have a function?
Yes they provide a purely visual function :)
There are 4 blue LEDs at each cylinder that come on when the machine is switched on. When the machine goes into sleep or standby the lights flash to indicate the sleep state.
The cylinders act to 'project' the light and create a nice effect.

Not everyone likes the lights, and that's fine. It's very easy to lift of the screwless lid and disconnect the LEDs.
Although as Theo pointed out they also act as a deterrent to thieves especially when they flash :)

Audioman

28-02-2012, 15:07

Thanks and welcome to the forum. So basicaly TFS is a high spec PC in fancy case sold under a hi-fi brand. Now I will research the cost of parts. For audio it would be easy to lose the Blue Ray. Also file storage could be NAS server over network.

Ali Tait

28-02-2012, 15:42

Hi Jason, I'm sure plenty here would be interested in the forthcoming transport version.

jostber

28-02-2012, 16:09

Hi Paul,
not sure the exact specs you're interested in, but here are some and you can let me know if it answers your question:

Mobo: Asus AT3IONT-I Deluxe (as some have commented already)
Proc: Dual core Intel Atom 330
FSB: 533MHz
Graphics: NVIDIA ION™ Graphics Processors
Memory: 4 GB, DDR3 1066/800
Storage: 128GB SSD (provision for 2 more SSDs - so 3 in total)
Drives: Slot-loading Sony bluray drive with the usual DVD-RW facilities etc
Connectivity: GB ethernet, wireless n, bluetooth
Ports: HDMI, VGA, USB
Audio Ports: RCA analogue, Coax/Optical digital
Other Features: Analogue in for the odd needle drop; a half decent headphone amp built in.

This level of spec means that, (with the 2 cores in particular), playing music while at the same time doing other stuff like creating playlists, ripping CD's, researching music on the internet, downloading hi-res files etc etc, can be done simultaneously without hiccup.

The significance of the level of graphics spec means that full HD video and blurays play with ease.

The power supply contains two separate dual rail supplies both with 300VA transformers.

The whole system is low power and passively cooled - so no physical or electrical noise and no moving parts (other when ripping CDs)

Software:
Windows 7 Pro - this allows remote control via a PC or Mac laptop using RDC
JRiver is the software player / organiser
dbpoweramp is the CD ripper

I don't bundle bluray playing software as most pefer to use their own or won't make use of it. FWIW I am happy with PowerDVD 11 Ultra, although I know Ben (docfoster) didn't like it and uses something else.

What else do you want to know?

Yes they provide a purely visual function :)
There are 4 blue LEDs at each cylinder that come on when the machine is switched on. When the machine goes into sleep or standby the lights flash to indicate the sleep state.
The cylinders act to 'project' the light and create a nice effect.

Not everyone likes the lights, and that's fine. It's very easy to lift of the screwless lid and disconnect the LEDs.
Although as Theo pointed out they also act as a deterrent to thieves especially when they flash :)

Thanks, that was what I wanted to know regarding the specs. :thumbsup:

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 17:37

So the Audio is setup to use ASIO to interface to the DAC.

This means that the music data is sent directly to the DAC without any intervention from Windows or even the Xonar audio console - it literally gets delivered at the DAC's doorstep.

This means that if you made a bit-perfect rip from a CD, you will get a bit-perfect delivery to the DAC. It also means that no jitter is introduced by the transport itself.

It also means that you don't have to do anything to switch between different sample rates or bit depths - it's transparent and hassle free.

One implication is that the windows volume control doesn't work (remember it bypasses Windows completely).

The options for attenuation are as follows:
1) Have the maximum signal go to a pre-amp and attenuate from there in the analogue domain.
2) JRiver has an option for changing the 'internal volume'. This effectively attenuates in the digital domain before the data is sent to the DAC. Now because JRiver user 64-bit data structures for processing the music data this kind of internal attenuation effectively has no negative effect on the audio.
Therefore this option allows for plugging the TFS directly into a power amp and bypassing the pre altogether.
3) As above but use a pre to set the ball-park volume in the analogue domain and tweak it from the comfort of your armchair in the digital domain with the 'internal' volume control.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 18:05

So basicaly TFS is a high spec PC...
Hi Paul,

well, no not really - it's a well spec'ed PC for the applications it was designed for and no more. I make this point because a high spec PC would be much more powerful, much hotter, much louder and more expensive.
Once you have enough power to do all your audio and in the case of the TFS bluray tasks you are done. Any more and you are wasting energy and heat for nothing.

Now I will research the cost of parts.
Aren't you lucky that someone told you what to buy so you didn't have to spend hours and hours researching and experimenting, and wasting money on speculative parts that didn't work out in the end.... :)

For audio it would be easy to lose the BluRay.
Well, not really. You need some kind of drive in there for folks to rip their CD collections. And since this is a Statement product and since in the early stages of development bluray playback was specifically requested (I'm looking at you now Ben :) ) it really had to be a slot-loading BD drive

Also file storage could be NAS server over network.
Paul, not only could it be NAS, IT SHOULD be NAS. NAS is definitely the best solution as I tell anyone who cares to listen. My own TFS at home has a measly 30GB SSD and a 8TB NAS (RAIDed and backed up) spinning away in the basement. The TFS is wired into the network with cat6.
However, not everyone is ready to go the NAS route yet, so including a 128GB SSD with provision for 2 more is a good compromise and a buffer until the uninitiated get initiated :)

jostber

28-02-2012, 18:08

Can it be used with a Linux PC?

tubehunter

28-02-2012, 18:17

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 18:25

Hi Jason, I'm sure plenty here would be interested in the forthcoming transport version.

Ok, so the plan is to produce a transport-only product next.
It will be similar to the TFS except:

smaller - the challenge is to make it as compact as possible
cheaper - it won't be a Statement product in a fancy case
audio only - I won't go out of my way to ensure bluray playback capability
optional external PSU - for those on a budget it will be available without the fancy linear PSU

My question to you guys is: what digital interfaces do you want?
Obviously it will have USB.
It will also need legacy S/PDIF in the form of coax and optical.
But do people care about AES/EBU?

Welder

28-02-2012, 18:30

Ali Tait

28-02-2012, 18:32

Jason, that's good news, that's exactly what I'd be looking for. As for your question, how much would it cost to add? If it doesn't add too much to the price I'd say add it in.

Any timescale on when it will be available?

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 18:33

Interesting, So if Marco is using his Sony Dac 16Bit 44.1/48khz and tries to play 24bit 192Khz files Asio downsamples it?

No, I think in that case what's happening is that the full unadulterated signal is passed to the Sony Dac through the S/PDIF connection and it's the Sony that downsamples it. After all, how does the TFS know the capability of whatever DAC is connected - I didn't think any information was passed back to the transport with the S/PDIf protocol.

I'm not 100% sure though so maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm.

Clive

28-02-2012, 18:34

Just imagine asking similarly detailed questions when buying a car! I bet Jason feels a bit overwhelmed...

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 18:37

Can it be used with a Linux PC?

Sure can, and in fact a TFS owner (Terry) that posts on hifisubjectivist does just that. He runs Ubuntu on it and swears that it sounds better than the Windows set-up.

jostber

28-02-2012, 18:38

Sure can, and in fact a TFS owner (Terry) that posts on hifisubjectivist does just that. He runs Ubuntu on it and swears that it sounds better than the Windows set-up.

That sounds good for me as I use Suse Linux. :thumbsup:

Welder

28-02-2012, 18:41

I wouldn't expect a salesman to know the answers Clive which is why I'm asking the guy who I believe is the geek in the pile.;)

Basically I'm trying to establish whether this is a basic Asus low powered MOB with a standard Asus sound card fed by a couple of linear power supplies in a box.

A modern music centre if you like :eyebrows:

+1 for Linux OS and one less question.

Marco

28-02-2012, 18:43

Well, if it is, it's a bloody amazing one!! ;)

Marco.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 18:44

Any timescale on when it will be available?
Ali it really depends on how many more questions I get asked on this thread :)

Ali Tait

28-02-2012, 18:48

:lol: Might be a while then! Seriously, some idea would be good, and any info on it you may care to share.

Welder

28-02-2012, 18:52

Well I would have asked and read more over on the subjectivists forum but Richard didn't seem to want me there :D

Shocking manners that man :eek::lol:

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 18:53

With my current workload I would estimate 6 months given that it's still at the requirements gathering stage.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 18:56

Well I would have asked and read more over on the subjectivists forum but Richard didn't seem to want me there :D

Shocking manners that man :eek::lol:

Yeah, I maintain that forum for Richard so I need to go take a look and see why it's not letting new member's join. Bloody computers.... they never work. I hate them.

docfoster

28-02-2012, 19:08

Well, not really. You need some kind of drive in there for folks to rip their CD collections. And since this is a Statement product and since in the early stages of development bluray playback was specifically requested (I'm looking at you now Ben :) ) it really had to be a slot-loading BD drive

Guilty as charged. But what happened to the vegetable jalfrezi dispenser...?
Ben

Ali Tait

28-02-2012, 19:10

Yeah, I maintain that forum for Richard so I need to go take a look and see why it's not letting new member's join. Bloody computers.... they never work. I hate them.

Yes, I tried to join today also and got nowhere.

Ali Tait

28-02-2012, 19:11

Jason, any idea what the price will be?

Marco

28-02-2012, 19:15

Guilty as charged. But what happened to the vegetable jalfrezi dispenser...?
Ben

Hi Ben?

Could you please add your first name and basic geographical location to your profile. You will also need to pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community, by telling us what system you use and what music you like.

Sorry, matey, but them's the rules! :)

Marco.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 19:28

Yes, I tried to join today also and got nowhere.

Yep, it's definitely broken. Need to raise a support ticket. Bear with me on this one...

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 19:29

Jason, any idea what the price will be?

Not yet Ali, but I promise to post here as soon as there's a ballpark figure.

Ali Tait

28-02-2012, 19:39

Ok, thanks Jason.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 19:49

Hi Jason :)

Lots of questions....sry :eyebrows:

Given you’ve Windows7 as the operating system I take it you’ve not optimised the cores for particular processes. If you have got around this problem I would be interested in knowing whose software you used and how much you had to pay for it.

I gather you’ve used one of the Asus on PCI sound cards (?) From what I’ve read it may be the ST (?)

Have you underclocked the processor (?)
If so did you match it to the bus speed (?)
I understand you have to linear regulated power supplies feeding the MOB (?)
I wondered how you had implemented the clock power feed and have you separated the power supply for RAM and processor on the board (?)
I haven’t seen any mention of USB connectivity, or galvanic isolation on any of the data outputs. Is this primarily built for S/PDIF ?

Is there any provision for the owner to change the operating system without breaking any hardware dependencies?
What if anything has been done to the sound card?
I’ve had a few Asus sound cards in my time and while they’re competent they aren’t the best performing cards out there so why choose it ?

My view is media storage should never be on the same drive as the operating system yet I see you’ve allowed for this and I wondered why?

That’s the first batch of questions.

Wow! sounds like you should be designing digital streamers and not me!

I'm not sure how to take all those questions, John. It's like asking a commercial enterprise to reveal all it's secrets publicly and give away all it's hard earned experience.

But anyway, let's take some of the easier questions and see where this leads...

My view is media storage should never be on the same drive as the operating system yet I see you’ve allowed for this and I wondered why?
First, from what perspective do you make that statement. Is it from a back-up and recovery perspective or from a optimal audio playback perspective?

If it's from an audio playback perspective, why do you think it matters? do you think that the storage device will be accessed by the OS and thus introduce some kind of jitter?

Given you’ve Windows7 as the operating system I take it you’ve not optimised the cores for particular processes.
Ok, this one really interests me. Why do you think it matters? What benefit do you think it gives to the audio playback process?

By the way, what formal or informal level of understanding do you have in computer architecture. I ask so I can frame my responses appropriately.

Let's start with those 2 questions and see how we get on.

docfoster

28-02-2012, 20:25

Hi Ben?

Could you please add your first name and basic geographical location to your profile. You will also need to pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community, by telling us what system you use and what music you like.

Sorry, matey, but them's the rules! :)

Marco.

Of course. Apologies.
Am on phone at moment. Will sort it when I get on the pooter later.
Ben

Marco

28-02-2012, 20:26

Cheers, Ben. Much appreciated! :cool:

Marco.

Welder

28-02-2012, 20:33

:lol: Lets start with the easiest. I'm a complete amateur equipped with a few large hammers and a propensity for bodging.

I have however partially designed and built a few servers now and the subject seriously interests me.

Dealing with core optimisation first.
Sending audio data through a core isn't usually particularly demanding at 16/44.1 but as the bit depth and frequency increases there is more data to process. So, should you wish to include some DSP, or even a basic room correction application having just one core dealing with audio and the other or others dealing with system processes may be of some benefit.
Whether any benefits gained give an audible improvement is of course debatable but it may give one a bit of "headroom" for running multiple applications.
Having tried bashing Windows about in this regard I am curious as to whether you've managed to achieve this without infringing Windows copyright etc.
There are applications that can be used on top of Windows but the good ones tend to be rather expensive.

Regarding Data and OS on same drive. If anything is going to feck up its going to be the OS and that could easily mean losing all those tunes you've spent so long ripping assuming one cant rescue the system.

My names John btw ;)

terrybooth

28-02-2012, 20:50

I would be interested in knowing how hard the Window operating system has been tied into the hardware.
There is absolutely no doubt remaining in my mind that ALSA drivers not only sound better than WMD drivers but develop at a faster pace.

Not sure that anyone has replied to this. My TFS is running Ubuntu 11.10, so Windows 7 isn't tied to the hardware.

Welder

28-02-2012, 20:53

Cheers Terry :)

I certainly wouldn't want to be running Windows on a music sever.

Audioman

28-02-2012, 20:56

Welder

28-02-2012, 21:01

Hi Paul.

Yes, it is a software issue. There is a lot of software out there that is built to take advantage of multiple cores.

Welder

28-02-2012, 21:18

I'm not trying to pick this product apart, I'm just curious as to the choices that have been made.
Windows is very difficult to work inside. Generally one has to lever something else into the OS to make major system changes.

Same interest in the choice of JRiver. While I think it sounds okay on Win7 with the supplied asio drivers for example, imo it doesn't sound as good as ALSA or even OSS drivers with a Linux player.
Also considering the starting point for Windows is have everything running just in case and Linux is having nothing running and let the feckers work out how to get anything to run, having the least running would seem the most sensible and most of the servers I've heard that I thought sounded good ran on Linux.
Then of course there is the cost; both Win and JRiver cost money.
Same with the audio card.
Generally audio enthusiasts would seem to prefer a separate Dac; it gives greater flexibility.
I can see the attraction and commercial sense in providing a complete music centre and if it can put a digital smile on Marco's face it's got all my thumbs vertical.
Does such a configuration give the best sound though and may some be paying for features they really don't need.
I appreciate this is an early product and changes may be coming later. I'm just curious.

Lodgesound

28-02-2012, 22:04

I have to say that overall the price of this unit seems entirely reasonable.

True one can build a PC for around 2 or 300 pounds which will process all the data you need and more - both image and audio.

The problem comes when taking the signal out of the computer and into the outside world. In the professional and archiving world we use high end audio interface units made by the likes of MOTU or Prism costing around £700 - £2200.

I have two production computers which I built myself to these kind of specs - including the interface and operating systems coupled with half decent production software they were around £2500 each (around one tenth the cost of a high end analogue tape recorder in 1987).

I would be intrigued to hear it - are you bringing it to Scalford Marco?

Mark Grant

28-02-2012, 22:16

It's good to see Marco has a computer in his system at last :)

Have you got Spotify on it yet Marco ?
You might be surprised how good it can sound.

Marco

28-02-2012, 22:16

Sadly not, Stewart, as we don't have a room of our own this year, and the system we're putting some bits into (John's) already has a computer audio source in it.

However, I'll be bringing my Techy, Croft preamp and Tube Distinctions power amp, so if you're interested in hearing any of those, pop along to Syndicate 15, on the first floor :cool:

Marco.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 22:49

... So, should you wish to include some DSP, or even a basic room correction application having just one core dealing with audio and the other or others dealing with system processes may be of some benefit.
Ok, I now see where you are coming from.
So, the question of optimal process and thread scheduling on multi-processor, multi-core and multi-threaded systems is both very interesting and very complicated. When I was doing my computer science PhD at Manchester Uni back in the 90s there was loads of research into this and it continues unabated.
I also ran a project for my employer in 2008-2010 for optimising enterprise systems' workloads dynamically and automatically by using processor and memory affinity algorithms.

Without getting too off-topic, the current wisdom and state of the art is to let the processor and the OS figure out between them how to best load balance a workload across all the available threads/cores/processors since they do this dynamically using real-time data and can make the best possible decision.

If you or the programmer force affinity you will almost certainly be running your system less efficiently, as the optimal affinity characteristics of any workload change constantly due to many complicated interactions that is impossible for the programmer or you to possibly know ahead of time.

It also turns out that Windows 7 already does a very good job of thread scheduling on Intel processors, and Intel and Microsoft always work very closely together to get the best out of a system - they have to as they depend on each other.

In your particular example you might be starving the audio playing processes of needed processing power by restricting them to just one core when they really wanted 1.5 cores worth of work and you end up with the audio stuttering and 3/4 of the other core sitting idle because the system is sitting there with not much to do.

My strong recommendation to you is to not waste time with that line of investigation and not only because of what I say above.

Consider also this. Most good audio playing software will buffer the audio data to reduce the likelihood of mis-timing. In the case of JRiver there is an option to load the entire track into memory before starting to play. Even with room correction the load on the processor is pretty minimal. Try it and see what load % you get with the ps command on linux.

Regarding Data and OS on same drive. If anything is going to feck up its going to be the OS and that could easily mean losing all those tunes you've spent so long ripping assuming one cant rescue the system.
Well all disks can and will die at some point - they have a limited life span. So all important data needs to be backed up whether it's on the same disk as the OS or not.
If your point is that the OS may somehow get corrupted and become unbootable, well that doesn't affect the data on it. Just put the disk in an enclosure and copy the data off it. Although as I said above, you should be backing up your data wherever it's stored.

Tim

28-02-2012, 22:59

Well I don't intend to get too embroiled in the complexities of this thread, but I have read the posts over the last 2 days with great interest. I was rather surprised by some persistently negative comments, but very pleased with the response from your good-self Marco. Hats off for embracing it and giving positive reviews to what is undoubtedly a good product.... in fact the specs provided by Jason earlier make it very nearly a dead ringer for my current system (apart from the PSU and DAC end) and I know how good mine sounds ;)

I feel rather pleased that file based audio is marching on from strength to strength. I do have to add a small comment about the digs on price by some..... yes some of us can probably build the same or similar for less, but that's a component price..... I'm not sure what price I would put on how many hours of blood sweat and tears I have spent getting to where I am now, how much is that worth? But much more importantly, the number of people that are capable of doing such a thing is very small, even on this forum. My best mate has been hugely impressed by my server, but wouldn't have a clue how to build one and would happily pay the asking price of the TFS. A fully developed and marketed product is never going to be anything near how much 'you can buy the bits for'. It's just ridiculous to compare the two IMO and then the producers also need to make a profit, or what's the point in doing it? :scratch:

Anyway, I'm chuffed you like it Marco and chuffed that NVA seem to have produced a great product that I think is realistically priced for it's place amongst similar products..... (I do think the case is fugly though :eyebrows:)

Nice one :cool:

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 23:04

I certainly wouldn't want to be running Windows on a music sever.

You know John I have to smile at that - :)

Over the past 20 years I've heard every religious war there is regarding all the infinite choices humans have to achieve the same thing.

That statement is just another one of those.

The truth is that Windows, Mac and Linux are all perfectly capable of producing exceptional audio depending on how the entire hardware and software stack are put together. There are pros and cons using each and where one is better or easier than the other in one respect it's worse in another...

Alex_UK

28-02-2012, 23:06

Amen to all that, Tim. :)

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 23:13

John.

Core optimisation ? Well as I understand it it's the other way round. This is a software issue. Basicaly programmes have to be written in a certain way to utilise multicore processors. Earlier programmes for instance will not benefit as they will use a single core. Try thinking from that angle.

Paul.

Paul it's actually much more complicated than that. For example a processor that contains an out of order processing architecture (as many modern ones do) can schedule a single thread of instructions to multiple execution units on multiple cores.
In other words the 'multi-threading' is done at the architectural level not the programming level.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 23:35

Windows is very difficult to work inside. Generally one has to lever something else into the OS to make major system changes.
John, nothing needs to be done to the OS. You are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist. The audio processes bypass the OS entirely and work directly with the audio hardware - it's really that simple.

Same interest in the choice of JRiver. While I think it sounds okay on Win7 with the supplied asio drivers for example, imo it doesn't sound as good as ALSA or even OSS drivers with a Linux player.
Another religious argument. I'm genuinely pleased for you that you have put lots of effort in setting up a Linux based server and that it makes you happy.
For me Linux wasn't the right tool for the job.

Also considering the starting point for Windows is have everything running just in case and Linux is having nothing running and let the feckers work out how to get anything to run, having the least running would seem the most sensible.
In general, for the reasons I've already stated this is a red herring and not based in any fact that I have been able to measure.

Same with the audio card.
Generally audio enthusiasts would seem to prefer a separate Dac; it gives greater flexibility.
Well I guess you are missing the point of this particular product. It's specifically designed to be used as an all in one. The product that is designed to be used with a DAC is the one I'm working on now - the transport-only version. Some audio enthusiasts want an all in one with a built in DAC and some don't. They are 2 separate products.

... may some be paying for features they really don't need.
Well not really, as the person that buys the TFS knows they are getting an all in one solution. If someone specifically just wants a transport to plug their existing DAC into then the TFS is a poor choice. Better to wait for the transport-only version.

Figlet108

28-02-2012, 23:49

Tim

28-02-2012, 23:56

Hi Tim,

thanks for your support - you are spot on with all your points. And it's not just R&D costs - the cost for supporting this kind of product is considerable, especially when done properly and with care.

It's not like selling an amp or a cable or a speaker - you sell those and you can more or less forget about them. You sell someone a computer and you are committed for years.

I'm sorry you don't like the case though - I put a lot of time and attention to detail in the case design and have got lots of compliments on it.

However regardless whether someone likes the case or not at least no one can say it looks like a computer...
Jeez, you got that right about a computer Jason - I learnt the hard way and now refuse to build them for my mates anymore!

Cases are personal and I'm a bit old fashioned I guess, square small and black for me which is a bit dull really, but yep you are right, it doesn't look like a computer and ultimately it's all about what it sounds like that counts :)

Good luck with it too, it's a long slog getting people to accept that a computer can produce good audio, but we're getting there ;)

Figlet108

29-02-2012, 00:06

Don't be too hasty. For serious listening I still prefer to spin a CD. Music is ripped from a CD at a far higher speed than the disc would normally be played at. I am not convinced that the ripped data is always the same as the slowly played data. The Reed-Solomon error correction employed in a CDP during playback is lacking in documentation as far as its operation is concerned during the CD ripping process. So I am not satisfied that the R-S truth table is adhered to during a rip.

Stanley I thought it worth quickly commenting on this.
The best way to rip a CD is use something like dbpoweramp that basically guarantees you have made a bit perfect rip.
First of all you need to have that error correction switched off for ripping. You don't want algorithms to be guessing at what the right data might be, you want it to be read properly off the CD with 100% certainty.
In addition programs like dbpoweramp compare the rip you have just made with a database of known bit-perfect rips and can validate that you have made a bit perfect rip.
In contrast a CD player will almost certainly never play a CD with bit-perfect precision when in stream mode as it needs to play in real-time.

Figlet108

29-02-2012, 00:11

I learnt the hard way and now refuse to build them for my mates anymore!

We've all been there :)
My friends and family know better than to ask anymore...

Welder

29-02-2012, 00:45

Thank you very much for taking the time to try to cover at least some of my questions Jason.

The proof of course is in the listening and I will make some effort to get to hear your product.

I find the whole computer/file based audio thing really interesting. A bit sad in a way that computers didn't figure more highly when I was at school and University.
I used to hate them but now I'm getting rather fond of messing about with them.

As you say, excellent audio can be had from all three of the major operating systems.
This doesn't alter the fact that the best servers I've heard have been Linux based. But, as you write, its a bit of a religion thing and there's plenty of that in audio anyway so I wont feel erm, unusual in this respect. ;)

I'm a fortunate in being able to build my own server and I'm also fortunate in having a friend who develops audio software for a living so you never know, we might just come up with something interesting when I've stopped scrapping boards and burning crystals and spending my money on building linear power supplies and USB interfaces. :)

Obviously I'm not likely to be a customer, but that doesn't stop me wishing you every success with the project.
Having spent; possibly wasted, quite a few pounds on building then scrapping and building again I can only state again that if at £1800, your server can deliver the benefits of file based audio to those not so happy messing about with computers and compete with CD players and vinyl replay systems way above this price line, you'll have achieved in a single product what I've been banging on about since I arrived at this forum. ;)

Oh, the glowing Perspex tubes, brilliant sales strategy.;)

StanleyB

29-02-2012, 07:31

Stanley I thought it worth quickly commenting on this.
The best way to rip a CD is use something like dbpoweramp that basically guarantees you have made a bit perfect rip.
First of all you need to have that error correction switched off for ripping. You don't want algorithms to be guessing at what the right data might be, you want it to be read properly off the CD with 100% certainty.
In addition programs like dbpoweramp compare the rip you have just made with a database of known bit-perfect rips and can validate that you have made a bit perfect rip.
In contrast a CD player will almost certainly never play a CD with bit-perfect precision when in stream mode as it needs to play in real-time.
I wish I had your level of confidence in the process, but after having had to endure years of training by some CDP manufacturers as part of my work then, I have a different level of insight into some of the "bit perfect" check sum validation process. I can't remember the exact value (it could be 27 or 30), but there is a checksum calculator that is used to validate the data on a CD. It is this validation process that allows for a hole to be drilled into a CD and the data to still be passed as correct.
I refer back to some training manuals that I lent to someone, but which contains some valuable technical information on this. It is infuriating to me that I don't have access to it any more. Basically what it boils down to is that bit perfect rip is a misnomer. A more accurate term would be checksum accurate rip.

Welder

29-02-2012, 08:45

I wish I had your level of confidence in the process, but after having had to endure years of training by some CDP manufacturers as part of my work then, I have a different level of insight into some of the "bit perfect" check sum validation process. I can't remember the exact value (it could be 27 or 30), but there is a checksum calculator that is used to validate the data on a CD. It is this validation process that allows for a hole to be drilled into a CD and the data to still be passed as correct.
I refer back to some training manuals that I lent to someone, but which contains some valuable technical information on this. It is infuriating to me that I don't have access to it any more. Basically what it boils down to is that bit perfect rip is a misnomer. A more accurate term would be checksum accurate rip.

Funnily enough, this is my understanding of the checksum too. Checksum perfect may not be perfect at all.
But then again interpolation isn't perfect either and sound still seems to come out. ;)

StanleyB

29-02-2012, 09:06

Funnily enough, this is my understanding of the checksum too. Checksum perfect may not be perfect at all.
But then again interpolation isn't perfect either and sound still seems to come out. ;)
That too is part of the whole Solomon-Reed error correction table.
I have somewhere in my CD collection in the loft a couple of test discs that were issued to a couple of engineers like me in the 80's as part of their training course in Belgium (some of the Philips CD players were once made in Belgium, where they also had a training center). The discs have some odd errors embedded in them. The one that is of importance to me when discussing bit accuracy is the 'fingerprint error test". Basically there is very little data on a quite considerable stretch of the disc, but it plays perfect!
BUT: the same musical track is used on another test disc in that collection. If you play both discs at the same time and using identical players, at certain parts in the music there is a distinct difference to be heard. It could be in the dynamics in some areas, or in the instruments. If you swap the discs round, the differences transfer themselves to the other player.
This has baffled me for years. Whilst I have devised my own theory why there is a difference in two identical pieces of music, but with one being covered by fingerprints on the disc, I am of course still short of concrete evidence if my theory is right or not.

Audioman

29-02-2012, 09:32

That too is part of the whole Solomon-Reed error correction table.
I have somewhere in my CD collection in the loft a couple of test discs that were issued to a couple of engineers like me in the 80's as part of their training course in Belgium (some of the Philips CD players were once made in Belgium, where they also had a training center). The discs have some odd errors embedded in them. The one that is of importance to me when discussing bit accuracy is the 'fingerprint error test". Basically there is very little data on a quite considerable stretch of the disc, but it plays perfect!
BUT: the same musical track is used on another test disc in that collection. If you play both discs at the same time and using identical players, at certain parts in the music there is a distinct difference to be heard. It could be in the dynamics in some areas, or in the instruments. If you swap the discs round, the differences transfer themselves to the other player.
This has baffled me for years. Whilst I have devised my own theory why there is a difference in two identical pieces of music, but with one being covered by fingerprints on the disc, I am of course still short of concrete evidence if my theory is right or not.

Hasn't there long been a theory that the harder the error correction has to work the more effect there is on sound reproduction ? Stan Curtis used to produce a device that displayed errors that went with his CD1 to show this if I am not mistaken. I think this is the reason behind the various CD cleaning and repair products on the market and perceived (by some at least) improvement in sound with their use. For my part I have always treated CD's with equal respect to vinyl never buying the 'will play with jam on it' marketing.

Clive

29-02-2012, 09:33

The whole concept of reading data optically in the way that CD does has always bothered me. It just goes to show that in an ideal world for file-based audio we could do with having the original files rather than relying on rips.

Welder

29-02-2012, 09:36

Oh well, i guess this is like a lot of the other digital "facts".
Some state that all players sound the same, yet when you mention that each may use a different algorithm and they measure differently you get told you cant hear this.

Same with operating system optimisation. Take the recent JPlay debates. It seems that some believe they can hear a marked difference between the standard Win install and one where the OS is sent into hibernation.

At least the vinyl chaps don't have to worry about this stuff; just need to develop a needle that adjusts to the groove width and depth and rejects surface friction noise and they're done. ;)

Best do some work. :(

Clive

29-02-2012, 09:43

Same with operating system optimisation. Take the recent JPlay debates. It seems that some believe they can hear a marked difference between the standard Win install and one where the OS is sent into hibernation.(
The nub of that discussion is not so much about whether or not having the OS mostly shut down makes a difference - clearly it helps make Windows work more like an RT/OS, The real issue is whether people believe the subsequent latency improvement improves the sound. There are those that believe re-clocking at the input of the DAC renders all players sonically identical.....

Welder

29-02-2012, 09:54

I knew I should have waited a few years and learnt C++ instead of wasting my time with Fortran and Cobalt. :doh:

Clive

29-02-2012, 09:57

I knew I should have waited a few years and learnt C++ instead of wasting my time with Fortran and Cobalt. :doh:
Cobalt sounds more fun....Fortran, Algol, PLAN, Ada, Pascal.....oh Cobol too - how's your Working Memory? Mine's fading!

StanleyB

29-02-2012, 09:59

There are those that believe re-clocking at the input of the DAC renders all players the sonically identical.....
I use reclocking, and recently discovered that my DAC input receiver is superior in jitter performance to the one used by John Westlake in the DM3. But I would never dare to claim that any of the above renders my DAC sonically identical to anything else. Such claims should be taken with more than just a pinch of salt.

Clive

29-02-2012, 10:01

I use reclocking, and recently discovered that my DAC input receiver is superior in jitter performance to the one used by John Westlake in the DM3. But I would never dare to claim that any of the above renders my DAC sonically identical to anything else. Such claims should be taken with more than just a pinch of salt.
Thank you Stan for that realistic and sane comment.

Welder

29-02-2012, 10:01

Memory is f****d Clive. :doh:

I've got a student struggling with partial differential equations atm and I have to keep sneaking off to look at the book. :lol:

I blame all them pills an stuff from my youf. :eek:

MartinT

29-02-2012, 10:16

We've all been there :)
My friends and family know better than to ask anymore...

I won't sell off old laptop or desktop PCs to our staff any more, having learned the same lesson. They honestly thought they had a licence for infinite support and free software forever.

MartinT

29-02-2012, 10:20

there is a checksum calculator that is used to validate the data on a CD. It is this validation process that allows for a hole to be drilled into a CD and the data to still be passed as correct.

It's a bit more than a checksum, Stan. The redundancy process on CDs is called CIRC (Cross Interleaved Reed-Solomon Code).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-interleaved_Reed-Solomon_coding

EDIT: oops, I see you went on to discuss it.

Ali Tait

29-02-2012, 10:21

Keep taking them John, or you'll end up back in the nuthouse! :lol:

Marco

29-02-2012, 10:40

Funnily enough, this is my understanding of the checksum too. Checksum perfect may not be perfect at all.
But then again interpolation isn't perfect either and sound still seems to come out. ;)

Yup. Most of this technical chat, however, is going way over my big daft nut...

The bottom line for me is that when CDs are ripped by the process which the TFS uses, that process seems to be making a much better job of maintaining the integrity of the data (and subsequent music signal) than when my (very high-quality and highly modified) Sony CD player was reading that data and transferring it to my Sony DAC - and the same applies when other file-based systems I've heard so far do the same job.

Quite simply, NEVER have I heard computer audio sound *THIS* good! :trust:

I'm only guessing, of course, but for me the fact that the sound the TFS produces is completely devoid of any digital 'hardness', common in my experience to every other digital audio source I've heard since I first listened to CD back in 1983, seems to confirm that the way the TFS reads data from CDs, and processes that data, is more accurate than any other similar device I've heard so far.

In my opinion, the nasty digital 'hardness' (relentless quality) I'm referring to, which makes listening to music tiring on the ears (you should all know what I mean by this), is derived both from the switching noise I mentioned earlier, and the effect of 'jitter' (or whatever you want to call it); basically a sonically adverse effect imposed on the music signal, as a result of errors in reading the data encoded on CDs, which then 'pollute' the signal, significantly affecting its integrity, that is subsequently converted by the DAC. And our ears find the resultant sonic effect most irritating.

To my 'layman's' ears, the TFS seems to be doing the job of accurately processing the raw data right more than anything else that I've experienced to date, which is why, when that digital 'hardness' is completely absent, one can settle down and listen to music for many hours with zero listening fatigue, but with all the natural dymamics of the music still present and correct - and yes, why, in that respect, listening to the TFS is akin to listening to music played on a very good turntable! :)

Therefore, whilst all this technical speculating is fascinating, and no doubt of interest to some, the bottom line for me is that the TFS is one of the most musically convincing digital audio sources I've ever heard, and has been responsible for significantly reducing my sleeping hours over the last few days, because listening to music on it is so bloody addictive!!

Quite simply, no other digital audio component I've owned has EVER done that... I think that says it all ;)

Marco.

Welder

29-02-2012, 10:58

How are you getting on with the Hi Res stuff Marco? Have you had a chance to play any through the onboard sound card?

Does all this mean you'll missing from the forum for a few months while you rip your CD collection? You must have loads to rip. :doh:

Marco

29-02-2012, 11:09

Hi John,

I've be revisiting that later today, when I collect some interconnects (2m Belkins), from a friend who had borrowed them, which will be long enough to connect the TFS transport to my Croft preamp, since I've relocated the former, in order to maximise its sonic performance, in terms of optimal placement on my rack.

Therefore, when I do that I'll be listening to some high-res music rips Jason left on the TFS, which my Sony DAC has been unable to play. I shall then report what I hear later! :cool:

Marco.

John

29-02-2012, 11:16

Getting rid of that harshness I used to associate with digital has made such a difference
Now the difference I hear is in the recording/mastering

Marco

29-02-2012, 11:19

Absolutely, John. That's, for me, what file-based music listening, when done properly, succeeds in achieving more than any CD player I've ever heard :exactly:

Marco.

anthonyTD

29-02-2012, 11:20

YNWaN

29-02-2012, 11:27

I'm only guessing, of course, but for me the fact that the sound the TFS produces is completely devoid of any digital 'hardness', common in my experience to every other digital audio source I've heard since I first listened to CD back in 1983, seems to confirm that the way the TFS reads data from CDs, and processes that data, is more accurate than any other similar device I've heard so far.

Well, that may be the case, but (and this has nothing to do with TFS which I've never heard) I have heard quite a lot of computer audio in the last few years. I realise that some might think that I hide in my cave and listen to just my TT, but unfortunately I do have to venture out. My experience of recent (upper end) CA is that it's the polar opposite of old CD. CD did lean toward a brash hardness, but the last two CA/DAC systems I heard (at length) were very smooth and delicate; in fact, perhaps too smooth...

Marco

29-02-2012, 11:28

Hi Marco,
Intersting stuff, as you know i have been toying with the idea of going down the streaming route myself for a while now, it has always had the potential to be very good, it will be intersting to listen to the TFS system when i visit, if like you my findings are favourable then i will deffinately be looking into it on a more serious level.

Absolutely, mate - which is why I've been spending time ripping some of your favourite choons, and others that I think you'll like. Looking forward to your visit! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

29-02-2012, 11:35

Hi Mark,

Well, that may be the case, but (and this has nothing to do with TFS which I've never heard) I have heard quite a lot of computer audio in the last few years. I realise that some might think that I hide in my cave and listen to just my TT, but unfortunately I do have to venture out. My experience of recent (upper end) CA is that it's the polar opposite of old CD. CD did lean toward a brash hardness, but the last two CA/DAC systems I heard (at length) were very smooth and delicate; in fact, perhaps too smooth...

In that respect, our respective experiences are broadly similar. I can tell you, however, that the sound the TFS produces is intrinsically comparable to what I heard from your (excellent) turntable, when I visited. It gets the 'bones' of the music right in a similar way.

This is digital music replay for (quality) analogue-loving nutters, baby! :hifive:

Marco.

Mileend

29-02-2012, 13:34

but with all the natural dymamics of the music still present and correct - and yes, why, in that respect, listening to the TFS is akin to listening to music played on a very good turntable! :)

the TFS is one of the most musically convincing digital audio sources I've ever heard,
Quite simply, no other digital audio component I've owned has EVER done that... I think that says it all ;)

Marco.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Marco - it is just so damn musical that you forget what is playing the music and all the associated hi-fi 'y things we sometimes over-indulge in.

If you can drag yourself back to the tt compare a ripped cd to the equivalent vinyl record. The similarities far exceed the differences imho.

Mervyn

Audioman

29-02-2012, 13:43

Marco. This is merely a competently implemented computer dedicated to audio. I guess the reasons it sound better are likely linear power supplies and a particularly good cpu/board with well implemented software. I am looking forward to the basic version which will enable off board power supply and use of the highest quality hi -res DAC. Also this will involve a number of unobtrusive small boxes. Use of Linux may be a better option simply to minimise cost as in Essence MS7 is now an unecessary expense.

I think you need to listen to some 24/196 downloads before passing judgement on final quality. Also I am slightly perplexed by such a large difference between your CD performance and the streamed rips. This is likely down to transport derived jitter which would suggest your old Sony isn't so great in electrical terms. Also bear in mind a good modern DAC will be better in reducing jitter than 25 year old designs even with component modifications. I don't think the TFS dac is likely to be state of the Art. That is why the 'transport' version with dedicated dac will be the more desirable solution.

Paul.

Macca

29-02-2012, 13:53

Now you've finally gone off and joined the Dark Side Marco I'll be happy to take that rusty, jitter ridden piece of Sony ES junk off your hands - shall we say a ton, cash of course ;)

Clive

29-02-2012, 14:13

I think you need to listen to some 24/196 downloads before passing judgement on final quality. Also I am slightly perplexed by such a large difference between your CD performance and the streamed rips. This is likely down to transport derived jitter which would suggest your old Sony isn't so great in electrical terms. Also bear in mind a good modern DAC will be better in reducing jitter than 25 year old designs even with component modifications. I don't think the TFS dac is likely to be state of the Art. That is why the 'transport' version with dedicated dac will be the more desirable solution.

Having listened to various CA players and a good number of DACs I've come to the conclusion that whilst DACs and the way they are configured internally makes fair old difference, the biggest gains lie elsewhere. The swapping of DACs and resulting sound changes are not so very significant vs getting what precedes the right.

I think there are those of use who struggled with most CD players - probably that's a one reason for us sticking with records. Others either didn't have records to compare with or were not susceptible to CD harshness and lack of 3D. I fully get where Marco's coming from having recently gone through a similar epiphany albeit via different route.

Clive

29-02-2012, 14:27

Andre, I can't speak for Marco....but I'm finding CA as I have it now at least bears comparison to vinyl. It's not the same but it's possible to swap between the two and not feel short-changed. There's no way I'm giving up vinyl, I want to be able listen to all my music!

Theo

29-02-2012, 15:14

Andre, I can't speak for Marco....but I'm finding CA as I have it now at least bears comparison to vinyl. It's not the same but it's possible to swap between the two a not feel short-changed. There's no way I'm giving up vinyl, I want to be able listen to all my music!

Having had the TFS for some time now (but only recently re-aquainting myself with it), my digital preference is still my Esoteric CDP. The TFS and the Micromega are similar (this is a good thing), and I prefer my t/t to the lot - but this could be down to the fact that maybe the mastering is superior (early/1st pressings) or the pressing is great (2x45rpm releases, etc.).

However, the context is that I have music in all three formats (I REALLY hope I don't get into R2R, because they are beautiful machines), and I need to hear all three utilising the best playback tool that I can find; I think I'm pretty close on my sources now.

Sometimes it's fun to do a CD/file/LP comparison, but it's never apples-with-apples, because the mastering/mixes are usually from different eras. Ultimately, it's all about the music, not the format, and I'm happy with how the TFS portrays music.

YNWaN

29-02-2012, 17:19

This is digital music replay for (quality) analogue-loving nutters, baby! :hifive:

Marco.

But am I correct in thinking you are only using it as a transport and are still using your own DAC?

AlexM

29-02-2012, 17:39

Hi,

I have always thought that file-based playback holds all of the advantages it needs to in order to outperform a standalone CD player. There are other detracting factors of course, but this is my rationale for using my CDs in this way going forwards.

CIRC will allow the CD player to reconstruct missing burst errors from the CD to quite an extent, and during a rip this mechanism ensures that the ATAPI interface gets the corrected data too. A CDROM drive also has the advantage of being able to re-read frames as many times as it needs, adjusting speed downwards if necessary to get the data. A CD Audio drive is seriously handicapped in comparison in terms of getting the data off the disc intact. In fact it is pretty amazing it works as well as it does at all - I assume that interpolation is saving the day pretty often with less than pristine disks.

When the contents of the CD are checksummed via AccurateRip, and the confidence level is high, you can be as sure that the chances of even a single bit error are very, very low. Of course, an error in a rip is there forever, and there is no redundancy in the data to work out what was missing - whatever came of the disk is what you will be working with going forwards.

I have a large-ish CD collection that is the mainstay of my library, but I am looking forward to the future of shiny 24/192 files and all that might bring. I just hope that it doesn't just bring unimaginative rehashing of the usual audiophile reissue fodder, and that the music industry takes advantage of the opportunity to rediscover quality rather than squandering it by sinking to the lowest common denominator.

Well done to Jason for putting together an 'applicance' that delivers on the SQ front. There isn't any issue with the device using relatively prosaic internal components - they are fit for purpose, and the PSU noise issues will be a worthwhile improvement on s/n for the on-board sound card and converters. Those who say that it is expensive for what it is need to look at the VFM of 'traditional' audio components as a comparison.

Well done also to Marco for not being dogmatic about what the 'right' solution should look like, and being open to the future.

Regards,
Alex

StanleyB

29-02-2012, 17:58

But am I correct in thinking you are only using it as a transport and are still using your own DAC?
Let's put things into context. If you already have a wife of many years standing, and then suddenly acquired a mistress, would you be any less happy than if you lived with vinyl all your life and then suddenly discovered the joys of digital?

YNWaN

29-02-2012, 18:23

I haven't a clue - much too mixed a metaphor for me - I can't see what it has to do with my question either.

terrybooth

29-02-2012, 19:23

As a TFS owner of a few months standing. Can I contribute a few thoughts?

I bought the TFS because I found myself listening to CDs all the time. The turntable having been relegated to a box whilst I sorted out a new music room (which of course took longer than it should).

Having bought it, I discovered High definition audio downloads (I also discovered that a lot of sites offered low quality downloads).

I haven't quite sorted the usability side out. What I'd like to be able to do is to sit with a tablet in my hand and control the set from there. There are quite a few ways to skin that cat but I just haven't settled on one yet.

As I've already posted, I've replaced Windows 7 with Linux but I've got the system dual booting at the moment, so I haven't burnt my bridges.

Nearing the capacity of the solid state disk, I think that my next move is to get a decent NAS drive (anyone tried Synology for music?) and cable the two together on a fast ethernet network. This would also facilitate the remote control issue because I could give the TFS a static IP address.

The Xonar Essence soundcard, given the right material, sound pretty good to me. Certainly good enough on some material for me to not hear to much difference between reproduced and a live performance by the same person.

A little pot pourri for you.

terrybooth

29-02-2012, 19:28

Hi,

CIRC will allow the CD player to reconstruct missing burst errors from the CD to quite an extent, and during a rip this mechanism ensures that the ATAPI interface gets the corrected data too. A CDROM drive also has the advantage of being able to re-read frames as many times as it needs, adjusting speed downwards if necessary to get the data. A CD Audio drive is seriously handicapped in comparison in terms of getting the data off the disc intact. In fact it is pretty amazing it works as well as it does at all - I assume that interpolation is saving the day pretty often with less than pristine disks.

Alex

This is, to my mind, the main theoretical advantage of music computers over CDs. Everything else being equal (and there's obviously a debate about that), removing the error correction built into CD playback should make things simpler. And I subscribe to the opinion that solutions should be as simple as you can make them.

Marco

29-02-2012, 19:29

Hi Paul,

This is merely a competently implemented computer dedicated to audio. I guess the reasons it sound better are likely linear power supplies and a particularly good cpu/board with well implemented software.

Yes, I guess that's exactly what it is. It certainly does the job, though!

I've never said that the ingredients making up the TFS are revolutionary, far from it. However, the important things for me are that it sounds superb, and it's extremely user-friendly because it requires no technical computer knowledge whatsoever to operate it. Furthermore, the TFS is a neat 'all in one box' solution, without there being the need for a multitude of computer-related paraphernalia cluttering up my room.

I simply just control its functions from the screen on my laptop, which I already use every day, thus I don't need to buy any unwanted 'gadgetry'! All of that is crucially important to me :)

I think you need to listen to some 24/196 downloads before passing judgement on final quality.

Yup - I'll be doing that later, now that I've got some cables long enough to go between the TFS and my preamp.

Also I am slightly perplexed by such a large difference between your CD performance and the streamed rips.

There isn't a large difference. Perhaps my enthusiasm for the TFS, and all the new music it's allowed me access to, has clouded the reality slightly... Returning to my Sony CDP, and playing the original discs the files were ripped from, does not result in a case of 'Aw gawd, I can't listen to that anymore!' - far from it.

The ripped files, played through the TFS, do sound better, but the Sony still does a superb job reproducing music on CDs, albeit in the process sounding simply like a very good CDP player, whereas the TFS removes an artifice that, to my ears, is present in ALL CDPs I've heard, regardless of cost, which makes the listening experience more akin to that of when playing the best audiophile vinyl pressings on my T/T.

The effect is difficult to put into words, but those who own a top-notch T/T and file-based source (such as the likes of John, music room mod, and Clive) will know exactly what I mean. The TFS has a musical 'playability factor', and a way of getting to the fundamental core of what's present on digital recordings, like no CDP I've heard is capable of doing - and I've owned and heard some very good ones indeed.

This is likely down to transport derived jitter which would suggest your old Sony isn't so great in electrical terms.

Lol - no, it definitely isn't that! Trust me the Sony DAC is stunningly good. Please remember that it's choc-a-bloc full of the best modern components, after having been extensively modified by Audiocom, therefore it's not really 'old', in that sense. It simply combines the best of old and new technologies. Anyway, hopefully my explanation above helps you understand more about what it is I'm hearing.

Also bear in mind a good modern DAC will be better in reducing jitter than 25 year old designs even with component modifications. I don't think the TFS dac is likely to be state of the Art. That is why the 'transport' version with dedicated dac will be the more desirable solution.

Precisely. And that's why I'm using the TFS with my own DAC, although later I'll be revisiting using the built-in DAC of the TFS, with high-res files.

Bear in mind that I've compared the Sony to quite a few modern high-end DACs, and I've always preferred its way of music-making. Do you think that I'd be hanging onto it if I could simply go out and buy a modern DAC that easily outperformed it? If that was the case I'd do it, as within reason, cost isn't an issue.

Both the first and second times we've exhibited at Scalford, my Sony DAC was at the heart of the digital side of our system, on both occasions in conjunction with Steve Toy's (then) Bel Canto CDP, and we produced some superb sounds, which I'm sure anyone who was there and who can remember our demonstration, would attest to.

Nope, the Sony is staying put as my main DAC. What I have to decide now is whether the built-in DAC in the TFS is good enough for streaming high-res files, or whether I need to buy a better modern high-end DAC for that job. In that respect, all will be revealed in due course! :cool:

Marco.

Clive

29-02-2012, 19:31

A comment on hi def from me....I'm struggling with some it. Some is really great, I'm hearing really deep into the mix, atmosphere is fabulous. Other stuff though is can be quite poor in that I can hear limitations of the original recording or just plain bad mixing. This is with both new and old material. It seems some of the hi def material is "juiced up" to sound extra vivid but if the recording can't take it's rough, usually only a few notes at a time. So the extra resolution requires some care.

John

29-02-2012, 19:56

I totally get what Marco is saying
In the past I could listen to digital music as long as I did not hear my TT now I can swap and interchange them as much as I want 3 months ago if you asked me what was my favourite medium it would of been vinyl but now I just enjoy both . Also like Marco I want approach that easy and fits into my life

Marco

29-02-2012, 20:45

Do any of the TFS users know why I'm not getting any sound after switching from using the Sony DAC to the internal one in the TFS?

I've simply unplugged the digital coaxial cable, connecting my DAC to the TFS, and connected a pair of stereo interconnects from the Audio Out sockets on the back of the TFS to a line input on my preamp.

Result - no sound... :scratch:

Does the TFS have to be reconfigured in some way, so that sound comes out of the internal DAC?

Any help appreciated - cheers! :cool:

Marco.

YNWaN

29-02-2012, 20:48

What do the instructions say?

Or perhaps it doesn't come with any?

Marco

29-02-2012, 20:49

Lol - I don't have any.

Marco.

YNWaN

29-02-2012, 20:54

Have you tried rebooting it?

TopBalcony

29-02-2012, 21:02

Marco, are you ripping to flac or wav? would be interested on your thoughts on the relative merits of each on such a source

Welder

29-02-2012, 21:06

I still think vinyl has a slight edge despite all my digital ranting. It's not even been a matter of how much the system cost; the record players I've heard and thought excellent have has such painstaking effort put into getting everything just so, this, and this has to me made the difference between a good system and, well very nice but, systems.

I never liked CD.

To my mind the great thing about file based audio and servers such as this, assuming the reported performance is accurate, is the cost v performance ratio.
I've seen thousands of pounds chucked at vinyl replay and later heard it demolished by a few hundred pounds worth of computer bits. This for me anyway is one of the great things about file based audio you can achieve stunning sound at a fraction of the cost of a top performing record player and this puts high quality audio within reach of a great many people who just couldn't afford the equivalent sounding record setup.
It really doesn't matter whether vinyl or file gives ultimately the best replay, what matters is a greater number of people can have access to excellent sound quality at an affordable price.
Anything that helps to reduce the "I've got such and such" snobbery and "it cost loads and because you cant afford it you cant have the same quality play back" has got to be a winner for everyone, except the snobs of course, and hopefully encourage a new generation of listeners who really do care about the quality of sound rather than impressing others with what they've bought.

Welder

29-02-2012, 21:12

bobbasrah

29-02-2012, 21:22

You need to redirect through the sound card with the audio manager Marco.
This may help.
Need to look for your sound card as the preferred device.
http://www.ayre.com/usb-vista_setup.htm

I hope I'm wrong John, but I think Asio bypasees that, and it should be through the Sound Cars's GUI.....

PS - There should be an online manual or Essence user around. Maybe SPDIF and RCA are switchable?? Sorry..

Marco

29-02-2012, 21:22

Yup, that's exactly what it was - sorted now... Hi-res files here we come! :cool:

Marco.

Welder

29-02-2012, 21:27

I hope I'm wrong John, but I think Asio bypasees that, and it should be through the Sound Cars's GUI.....

PS - There should be an online manual or Essence user around. Maybe SPDIF and RCA are switchable?? Sorry..

Jolly good Bob. Win7 and sound cards aren't my strong point. :D

bobbasrah

29-02-2012, 21:48

Jolly good Bob. Win7 and sound cards aren't my strong point. :D

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

docfoster

29-02-2012, 21:48

.
I think you need to listen to some 24/196 downloads before passing judgement on final quality..
Paul.

I have 4 or 5 hi-res albums on my TFS. (There are so few that tempt my musical tastes...!)
The hi-res i do have are a mixed bag.
I have a Louis and Ella one one, and via the TFS Armstrong's voice is the most impressively realistic sound that my system has ever produced. Better than my vinyl front end. But other 24/96 and 24/192 I have haven't sparkled as much sonically. I don't know why.
Ben

docfoster

29-02-2012, 21:55

Yup, that's exactly what it was - sorted now... Hi-res files here we come! :cool:

Marco.

If you're using Asio, I think you have to set the bit depth (to 24) manually (right click the xonar icon in the bottom right).

Marco

29-02-2012, 22:06

docfoster

29-02-2012, 22:16

Hi Ben,

I don't have a Xonar icon on the bottom right... Won't the TFS simply adjust itself automatically to play hi-res files optimally?

If not, is what you're saying accessible from the TFS control panel?

I'm playing hi-res files now (Dick Hyman 'Thinking about Bix'), and it sounds great, but that's without having adjusted the bit depth.

Marco.

Click the main xonar icon on the desktop. The icon in the bottom right should appear as the main control panel opens.
I think Asio requires manual adjust...? Jason will slap me if i'm wrong...

DSJR

29-02-2012, 22:20

I have 4 or 5 hi-res albums on my TFS. (There are so few that tempt my musical tastes...!)
The hi-res i do have are a mixed bag.
I have a Louis and Ella one one, and via the TFS Armstrong's voice is the most impressively realistic sound that my system has ever produced. Better than my vinyl front end. Ben

The Ella and Louis tracks sound bloody marvellous on standard CD, especially with large decent speakers to reproduce the range. The old tape's noise floor is barely greater than 13 bit though I suspect, so if the hi-res file sounds better than the red book one, there may be another reason for all I know?

docfoster

29-02-2012, 22:24

The Ella and Louis tracks sound bloody marvellous on standard CD, especially with large decent speakers to reproduce the range. The old tape's noise floor is barely greater than 13 bit though I suspect, so if the hi-res file sounds better than the red book one, there may be another reason for all I know?

Ah. I don't have the CD for comparison. May be it sounds exactly the same...!
I have the 'plays wc handy' cd, which is impressive. Amazing how great those old recordings sound next to many modern efforts.

Marco

29-02-2012, 22:27

Click the main xonar icon on the desktop. The icon in the bottom right should appear as the main control panel opens.
I think Asio requires manual adjust...? Jason will slap me if i'm wrong...

Ah, I see what you mean... The control panel appears, where bit depth is mentioned, but the adjustment is disabled and the setting rigidly set at 16-bit.

Any idea how you would activate the adjustment?

Marco.

Ali Tait

29-02-2012, 22:28

Try Johnny Hodges/Duke Ellington "Side By Side" from HDTracks. A great recording IMHO.

Figlet108

29-02-2012, 22:34

Ah, I see what you mean... The control panel appears, where bit depth is mentioned, but the adjustment is disabled and the setting rigidly set at 16-bit.

Any idea how you would activate the adjustment?

Marco.

Marco, the version you have is automatic - you don't need to do anything.

Figlet108

29-02-2012, 22:43

... I'm a fortunate in being able to build my own server and I'm also fortunate in having a friend who develops audio software for a living so you never know, we might just come up with something interesting when I've stopped scrapping boards and burning crystals and spending my money on building linear power supplies and USB interfaces. :)

John, that sounds like a lot of fun, especially when you can collaborate with someone with orthogonal skills. I'm sure your servers sound very good.

Obviously I'm not likely to be a customer, but that doesn't stop me wishing you every success with the project.
Having spent; possibly wasted, quite a few pounds on building then scrapping and building again I can only state again that if at £1800, your server can deliver the benefits of file based audio to those not so happy messing about with computers and compete with CD players and vinyl replay systems way above this price line, you'll have achieved in a single product what I've been banging on about since I arrived at this forum. ;)

Thanks John, I appreciate your support.

Oh, the glowing Perspex tubes, brilliant sales strategy.;)
I can't take credit for that one. That was Richard's brainwave - he's a sucker for glowing perspex tubes :)