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northwest
26-02-2012, 18:20
I noticed that over on the Wam they have a couple of people organising the Pies! Is there anyone here who lives near or about Melton Mobray who would be prepared to GET SOME PIES! ?
There are some legendary pie shops around Melton Mobray but we would need someone to actually organise this who lives close by. Would anyone be prepared to organise this? I would love to do this myself but I am miles away. The cash thing is another consideration, whoever sorts this would have to be paid so we need to get cracking!

Dingdong
26-02-2012, 18:23
Why don't you just order them from the bloke on the Wam? I did.

Jac Hawk
26-02-2012, 18:36
the local butcher in the village where i live makes the most fabulous pork and apple pies i have ever tasted, i'll bring 6

jon1
26-02-2012, 18:48
the local butcher in the village where i live makes the most fabulous pork and apple pies i have ever tasted, i'll bring 6





Mike is that 3 of each?;):D


jon

northwest
26-02-2012, 18:55
the local butcher in the village where i live makes the most fabulous pork and apple pies i have ever tasted, i'll bring 6

West Cornforth, that will be Allinsons in Ferryhill? On your way down the A19 call in to Blackwells in Norton - the Pies are to die for! Closed Sundays though.
I am the Pie connoisseur:lol:

Marco
26-02-2012, 18:57
Are there no veggies amongst you lot? :eyebrows:

I'm not a big pie fan, although I love my wife's home-made steak and kidney pie, made with Aberdeen Angus beef and shortcrust pastry (puff pastry should never be used in savoury pies!), served piping hot, smothered with lovely red-wine infused gravy, and served with a big dollop of creamy home-made mashed potatoes and buttery, fresh baby carrots and peas... :)

Now yer talkin'! ;)

Marco.

northwest
26-02-2012, 19:09
Well, when my boys know the missus is doing "a dinner" they form a que outside! Tonight for instance (instead of bothering with a 'full' dinner) we just had a roast pork joint, sliced thickly onto lovely soft floury baps with plenty of butter on, melting in from the hot pork roast. Little English mustard and stuffing.... luuurvely.

Marco
26-02-2012, 19:11
Nice one :)

Marco.

isuckedmandelsonslemons
26-02-2012, 19:15
West Cornforth, that will be Allinsons in Ferryhill? On your way down the A19 call in to Blackwells in Norton - the Pies are to die for! Closed Sundays though.
I am the Pie connoisseur:lol:

With all due respect sir I am the Pie King. I gave a 12-week series of newspaper articles about pies on my CV.

You are however dead right about Blackwell's. The steak pies are the best I've ever tasted and the pork pretty good though bettered by the legendary pork growler produced by Morrell's in my home town of Hartlepool. Petch's at Great Ayton do a decent pork as well.

To my eternal shame the Ferryhill pie us one I missed on my journalistic travels. I shall rectify that at the earliest opportunity. I sometimes ride that way on my bike. I shall call it a recovery pie. Thanks for the heads up.

Jac Hawk
26-02-2012, 19:16
West Cornforth, that will be Allinsons in Ferryhill?

How on earth did you know that :scratch:

Marco
26-02-2012, 19:19
It's the dry and cold bit I can't really go... For me, pies taste much better served piping hot and smothered with tasty gravy!

Can they serve them that way where you buy them from?

Marco.

Jac Hawk
26-02-2012, 19:24
gravy doesn't really go with a pork pie mate, but Allisons do sell them straight from the oven :)

snuffbox
26-02-2012, 19:48
Fresh out the oven pork pies,one of the most wonderful things to savour if ever you get the chance.

Marco
26-02-2012, 20:01
gravy doesn't really go with a pork pie mate, but Allisons do sell them straight from the oven :)

Lol, mate, I know - hence why they're not really my thing. That and the jelly stuff - yuk!

Hey, but each to his or her own :)

Marco.

Welder
26-02-2012, 20:35
Having had the dubious pleasure of being sent to a number of places that make Pies and can drinks to fix broken machinery I wouldn't buy a pre made pie, or most other pre made food products.

I wont bother telling you about what the cheap casual labout and agency workers do to many of the products as they pass by,, or tell you about the rubbish that goes into these products.
If you're happy that's what counts. :eyebrows::)

Marco
26-02-2012, 20:40
You're right, John. I wouldn't touch the mass-produced muck with a bargepole, but I think it's likely to be rather different with high-quality products from family butchers, made in small quantities, such as are available from certain shops in and around Melton Mowbray :)

Marco.

Welder
26-02-2012, 20:50
Maybe Marco ;)

As a rule, i don't eat that rubbish,
I do occasionally eat out but generally I like to see exactly what it is I'm eating.
I realise this is a bit odd in these days of fast food etc but I cook.....;)

SCIDB
26-02-2012, 20:52
Hi,

I was involved in choosing the pies. The winner was a very fine pie indeed.

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae204/JVS99/Pies/PieLineUp.jpg

Here's the pie line up, clockwise from top left:
1. Pie from Mark's local butcher
2. Nelsons of Stamford
3. Walker & Sons
4. Brockleby's Farm Shop
5. D&M
6. Leesons Butchers
7. F Bailey & Son
8. Mark's local bakers

The winner is

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae204/JVS99/Pies/Nelsonbag.jpg

Marco
26-02-2012, 20:58
Quality!

I don't think there'll be much wrong with those (presuming of course that one likes pork pies in the first place) :)

Marco.

P.S John, my wife does the cooking - I do the eating! :eyebrows:

northwest
26-02-2012, 21:00
How on earth did you know that :scratch:

Because I come from near there:-)) Just 'cos it says Mankester in me profile doesn't mean I was born here :ner:

Having lived in Great Ayton for a while Petch's Pie shop was strategically located next to the Royal Oak Inn and a Saturday morning meant get the pies before you went to the pub because they were sold out by afternoon.

You may be the Pie King Sir, but I am still the connoisseur:lol:

Dingdong
26-02-2012, 21:05
Hi,

I was involved in choosing the pies. The winner was a very fine pie indeed.

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae204/JVS99/Pies/PieLineUp.jpg

Here's the pie line up, clockwise from top left:
1. Pie from Mark's local butcher
2. Nelsons of Stamford
3. Walker & Sons
4. Brockleby's Farm Shop
5. D&M
6. Leesons Butchers
7. F Bailey & Son
8. Mark's local bakers

The winner is

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae204/JVS99/Pies/Nelsonbag.jpg


I have ordered two of those pies. Looking forward to putting them in my belly. Pies is good.

Marco
26-02-2012, 21:07
They look pretty big (and filling), Mark... Are you sure you'll manage two? ;)

Marco.

Jac Hawk
26-02-2012, 21:12
There's another guy in Ferryhill that makes pies, not sure if he's still going cos he was getting on a bit, the company was called Northumbrian Lass i think, and he made gourmet pies, he used venison, wild boar, pheasant and such like and his pies were truly awesome, he sold them to restaurants and at the farmers market in Sedgefield, if he's still trading i'll see if i can get one of his pies and bring it down to Scalford too.

keiths
26-02-2012, 21:15
:lol:

I've heard of "coals to Newcastle", but "pork pies to Melton Mowbray" :scratch:

Dingdong
26-02-2012, 21:16
They look pretty big (and filling), Mark... Are you sure you'll manage two? ;)

Marco.

I think they are available in a two pound version. I only ordered 2 x 1lb ones. That's me breakfast and lunch sorted.

Just got to select the right chutney to go with them.

Marco
26-02-2012, 21:18
There's another guy in Ferryhill that makes pies, not sure if he's still going cos he was getting on a bit, the company was called Northumbrian Lass i think, and he made gourmet pies, he used venison, wild boar, pheasant and such like and his pies were truly awesome

That sounds more like my sort of thing. If you can snaffle some, I'd be tempted to try a piece :)

Shall I bring the claret? :cheers:

Marco.

Jac Hawk
26-02-2012, 21:22
I prefer a Gran Reserva Rioja mate:cheers:

northwest
26-02-2012, 21:25
Soooooo, is anyone bringing the pies?

This is important!

Marco
26-02-2012, 21:26
I prefer a Gran Reserva Rioja mate


I can do that. Got a lovely bottle of 1998 Marques de Riscal sitting 'doing owt' on me wine rack! :eyebrows:

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
26-02-2012, 21:30
....a lovely bottle of 1998 Marques de Riscal sitting .....

Marco de Rascal?

Marco
26-02-2012, 21:33
Yesh, that's rather more appropriate! :D

Marco.

Jac Hawk
26-02-2012, 21:42
Soooooo, is anyone bringing the pies?

This is important!

I'll bring some mate

Jac Hawk
26-02-2012, 21:43
I can do that. Got a lovely bottle of 1998 Marques de Riscal sitting 'doing owt' on me wine rack! :eyebrows:

Marco.

I'll bring me corkscrew then :eyebrows:

northwest
26-02-2012, 22:17
Righto, bugger ye then! I'll bring a couple o Greggs sausage rolls!

Marco
26-02-2012, 22:26
Mike said he was bringing some, so worry not.

Marco.

P.S Nice to see the P2 up and running in your Gallery thread :)

northwest
26-02-2012, 22:34
P.S Nice to see the P2 up and running in your Gallery thread :)

Marco, I have gone from 0 (zero) cartriges to FOUR, not including the Elan. I lay the blame firmly at your feet.

Marco
26-02-2012, 22:35
Shoreee... :o

The bad news is that it'll only get worse! :D

Marco.

northwest
26-02-2012, 22:40
Well actually Marco, swapping the Genie for the P2 and the difference was quite noticeable. I bought the silver interconnects off Martin and I am going to make a custom connecting block for the RCA sckets on the P2 and rewire the arm. Pretty soon too. Then I will play with the cartriges........

Marco
26-02-2012, 22:43
I was referring to the addiction getting worse ;)

Marco.

northwest
26-02-2012, 22:50
I was referring to the addiction getting worse ;)

Marco.

Oh I know Marco. Just couldn't help commenting on how much an improvement the P2 was. I realise that I am very fortunate that i can "save money" by doing it myself. But it never works out that way. Because I am "saving money" it makes sense that I buy a variety of cartriges/connectors/interconnects because I am still not paying full price - because I am implimenting the changes myself.
At least this technique is working so far for me. I just end up with a boxful of 'spares':eyebrows:

Audioflair
27-02-2012, 13:09
Back to pork pies for a minute if I may. A Chinese kung-fu master said to me recently, `Oh British food really disgusting, I put some pork pies in the oven the other day and the fat, the fat running everywhere..!`

northwest
27-02-2012, 13:53
Back to pork pies for a minute if I may.

Really? This thread is about Pies? Amazing!

The Grand Wazoo
27-02-2012, 13:57
Really? This thread is about Pies? Amazing!

Fantastic as it is, I don't think it will ever match the magnificence and splendour of the Art of Sound Cheese thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4932)!!

RochaCullen
27-02-2012, 14:57
If there is one thing I miss about living in the UK, it is the pies. I love pies. Made a beef and guinness pie over the weekend for some visitors we had. It went down a treat.

Nathan

Jac Hawk
01-03-2012, 19:14
Got the pies on order today 6 pork and apple and 2 pork and cranberry

Alex_UK
01-03-2012, 19:15
Sounds like a top idea. :)

Jac Hawk
01-03-2012, 19:19
well mate i figured if we cant tempt anyone up to listen to the hifi they may come for the pies;)

Alex_UK
01-03-2012, 19:29
well mate i figured if we cant tempt anyone up to listen to the hifi they may come for the pies;)

Alternatively they can stick bits of pie in their ears! :lol:

slate
02-03-2012, 17:04
the World crisis is over... it must be when the biggest problem is pie

RichB
02-03-2012, 18:19
Hi Fi and Pies! my 2 favorite things, so wishing I could be there...

Have a great show fellas!

DSJR
02-03-2012, 18:55
Sounds like a top idea. :)

Oi, you're on a diet young man :rfl:

On the other hand, I'll get me coat.......

The Black Adder
03-03-2012, 12:36
Don't like Wam pies... I'd rather eat a moccasin stuffed with dog meat.

YNWaN
03-03-2012, 14:29
Well, I'm off to said show in an hour, should be there by 4:30.

Have made all the things people asked me to make :).

Rare Bird
04-03-2012, 21:12
Come on then chaps i see some of you are back home early, howd it go? :eyebrows:

YNWaN
04-03-2012, 21:18
Fantastic

aquapiranha
04-03-2012, 21:42
Pics or it didn't happen :lol:

Jac Hawk
04-03-2012, 22:29
Alex's C.a.C
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/Scalford%202012/IMAG0078.jpg

Jac C.a.C
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/Scalford%202012/IMAG0079.jpg

John, Vic, Nick, Martin & Marco's Set up
apparently Marco said the room was too "rectangular" :doh:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/Scalford%202012/IMAG0080.jpg

Literally seconds after this photo was taken John caught the O.B the result wasn't pretty :doh: but quite easily fixed with a bit of glue:)
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/Scalford%202012/IMAG0081.jpg

More to follow............

Rare Bird
04-03-2012, 22:35
Who's who there then Mike, i know the arse is John (pardon the pun) :lol:

Jac Hawk
04-03-2012, 22:54
guy with goatee is vic, not a member here but a top bloke, they are vic's O.B's not johns b.t.w, the arm is mr rectangle Marco and the ear is Anthony TD, honnestly mate you missed a top show

Alex_UK
04-03-2012, 23:01
Top weekend - great to catch up with loads of AoS members and put a few new faces to names or avatars - would be rude to mention individuals as I will be bound to forget someone - but a big thanks to you all for coming to say "hi". I hardly left the room, so didn't get to listen to many systems, but still a great time. :)

Rare Bird
04-03-2012, 23:03
Hi Mike
Honestly i would come every year if i could.. Aye i worked out the geezer on the right was Marco with that bulging muscular manframe :eyebrows:

Jac Hawk
04-03-2012, 23:11
Hi Mike
Honestly i would come every year if i could.. Aye i worked out the geezer on the right was Marco with that bulging muscular manframe :eyebrows:

Mate, next year, no excuses i'll pick you up;)

Rare Bird
04-03-2012, 23:18
:eyebrows: Will you have room for two elephants tho! or more to the point will your rear suspension take it? :lol:

Did anyone hear the Rogers HG88 amp that was there somewhere?

YNWaN
05-03-2012, 09:00
I had a great time, lots of joking and laughing with friends and interesting gear to listen to. A few friends were exhibiting (very different systems) and was fun to bob between them.

I thought the (unofficial?) AoS room was interesting; I went in a couple of times. The first time a 1200 with a Dynavector arm and Shelter cartridge was being used. the second time the deck with the air bearing arm was being used - I've seldom (perhaps never) heard a system sound so different just by changing the turntable! If anyone ever doubted the importance of 'source first' this demo would have removed any question.

chris@panteg
05-03-2012, 09:04
I had a great time, lots of joking and laughing with friends and interesting gear to listen to. A few friends were exhibiting (very different systems) and was fun to bob between them.

I thought the (unofficial?) AoS room was interesting; I went in a couple of times. The first time a 1200 with a Dynavector arm and Shelter cartridge was being used. the second time the deck with the air bearing arm was being used - I've seldom (perhaps never) heard a system sound so different just by changing the turntable! If anyone ever doubted the importance of 'source first' this demo would have removed any question.

Which deck did you prefer then Mark ?

Marco
05-03-2012, 09:08
Hi Mark,


I thought the (unofficial?) AoS room was interesting; I went in a couple of times. The first time a 1200 with a Dynavector arm and Shelter cartridge was being used. the second time the deck with the air bearing arm was being used - I've seldom (perhaps never) heard a system sound so different just by changing the turntable! If anyone ever doubted the importance of 'source first' this demo would have removed any question.


Ah, yes... But unknown to you, the Salvation turntable (with the Terminator vertical tracking, air-bearing arm) was also running with its own (Nighthawk) solid-state phono stage, as from where the T/T was cited, the tonearm leads wouldn't reach my Croft preamp...

Therefore, that was another rather important variable. When Martin's Techy was being used (the one with the Dynavector arm), it was going through his Hashimoto SUTs and the valve MM phono stage in my Croft.

As for the "unofficial AoS room", it belonged to John and Vic (AoS music room mod and the designer of the Salvation T/T and Terminator tonearm, respectively), but we also brought some of our kit to put into their system, which ended up staying there.

Which T/T did you prefer? Btw, nice meeting you again, mate :)

Oh, and that goes for everyone else I chatted to yesterday from AoS (particularly Mike, Jac Hawk and Mark, Reid Malenfant), and folks from Wigwam. As usual, it was an excellent show :cool:

Marco.

Marco
05-03-2012, 09:51
Some pics, courtesy of Wigwam, of John's and Vic's system (with some of mine and Martin's and Nick's thrown in):


http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5817/p1000136c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/p1000136c.jpg/)


http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9615/p1000137o.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/p1000137o.jpg/)


http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9264/dsc00543ai.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/dsc00543ai.jpg/)


And courtesy of pfm:


http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/3899/dsc00542ba.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/dsc00542ba.jpg/)


Marco.

Audioman
05-03-2012, 10:14
Attended the show for the first time. Very crowded when I arrived and had to park on the verge up the road and then battle near arctic conditions. I have to say this venue is a bit out in the sticks but reasonably easy to find.

A lot of good sounding gear. I only Heard Martin's Technics Dynavector v Reel to reel while in the 'AOS' room. TT won hands down. Whether this was best sound in the show is another question. Frankly heard a number of equaly valid alternatives including systems based on Notts Analogue, Michell Orbe and Oracle. Please note Marco the latter another deck that produces fine sound with the SME V.

Too many variables to judge which is best. Rockmeister had SHL5 with a Palmer/SME M2 front end. This didn't quite hit the spot possibly due to a bad room. Flapland's Orbe with Audio Mods arm impressed with active Adam speakers especialy when he played 'Songs From The Wood'. I think this and the Notts Hyperspace/Hadcock through Quads proves both these decks run mega priced TT's pretty close for sensible money.

Beobloke's B & O system realy ran some serious more fashionable kit close. That TT was realy excellent. He also had a Cambridge CD1 with the error read out box. This CD player still rivals most I have heard on this showing. Also take into account he drew short straw on room size.

I was also surprised by the sound produced by streaming systems on demo in general. Some great sounds using the humble Sqeeze Box. I was advised (Lurcher I think) that the key was addition of specialist (valve) power supply. Also several great sounding vintage Tannoys on demonstration. More informative and enjoyable than the trade shows.

Marco
05-03-2012, 10:31
Oh, just before I run off and do a few things... A special award must go to the guys (Alex UK and Jac Hawk) in the AoS CAC room.

What a fantastic sound they made from some truly cheap as chips (and even cheap as crisps) kit - wonderful effort lads! :clap: :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
05-03-2012, 10:33
Go on then Marco whats that petrol canister for :)

Marco
05-03-2012, 10:41
It was feeding the air-bearing Terminator tonearm on the Salvation T/T, dude :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
05-03-2012, 10:45
Blimey, all to modernistic for me :eyebrows:

Audioman
05-03-2012, 10:46
Oh, just before I run off and do a few things... A special award must go to the guys (Alex UK and Jac Hawk) in the AoS CAC room.

What a fantastic sound they made from some truly cheap as chips (and even cheap as crisps) kit - wonderful effort lads! :clap: :cool:

Marco.

Forgot to mention Alex's room. Remarkable for so little expenditure. How does he get working stuff for that money on ebay?

anthonyTD
05-03-2012, 10:49
Hi All,
yes, i think the CAC room was a real ear opener for many, Alex and mike did a great job in there and are both realy nice top blokes.
well done.
Great to finaly meet a few more of you, Glad Mark Reid made it to the show, Realy Nice guy in the flesh, hope he comes back posting soon.
Good to meet up with some of the Wam boys again, Alfie, James, Big D, Guy S etc.
Anthony,TD...

Macca
05-03-2012, 10:53
I'll try and put down my thoughts on what I thought was good and bad, I'm not good at recalling the name and model of everything but anyway:

Active ATC - very impressive but very 'pro' sounding, sacrificing some sweetness for ruthless clarity. The only system I heard that had proper bas slam.

Freeefall Rob's Heybrook TT and Rotel amp - lovely sweet clean sound

Marco's Techy and the open baffles - again a good sound although I am still unconvinced about OB's, perhaps I am just too used to hearing the box? Wanted to hear the parallel tracker but there were some bass feedback issues with that side of the sytem when I was there.

Cheap as chips - the Cambridge/RAM combo was very good, said hello to Alex Uk but he seemed a little stressed. Room wasvery busy.

Asystem with passive ATC where the bloke had disconnected the ATC tweeter and fitted another on top. They had 3 huge turntables all of which sounded mint. Spent quite a bit of time in there.

Yamaha NS1000M with a Canary valve integrated and a very flash looking silver record deck - huge dissapointment, sounded thick and hard - the room was not ideal but even so it was a low score for that combo.

Citation power amp with KEF uni-q floorstanders and a TT - again a hard sounding system, it was being played way too loud and you could hear the amp distorting. Not fun.

Tannoy Turnberry with AOS distinction pre and copper power - again dissapointing, the system had a good tone but the room was the size of a postage stamp and the speakers were some way out into the room so you were pretty much sitting between them rather than in front of them.

15'' Tannoy HPD in massive, twin ported DIY cabs - looked like a bad PA system and sounded wonderful, very sweet, again the room was too small.

DIY transmisson lines using kef b137, T27, Celestion HF and coles supertweeter - fed by a Nakamichi Dragon! Again a lovely sound.

Harbeth SL5 - always wanted to check out some Harbeth, this system was fornted by a great lookking TT, the tiny bedroom did not do it justice but I was impressed by the Harbeths, they are detailed but stayed just the right side of being too 'hi-fi' sounding.

Speedy Steves 5 way horn system - what can be said about this other than awesome - Steve said he felt the room was a little big and was losing some of the bass impact but the soundstage was just incredible and the music absolutley effortless - spent about an hour in there, highlights were 'Another Brick in the Wall' and Bach's Tocatta and Fuegue - there was an invisible pipe organ in the room!

S-Man and the non-resonant bass system - essentiall twin motion-controlled subs. This was one of the better sounding systems, with the LS3/5 doing mid and treble it was really special, lost a bit when they switched to the propriety mid-top units though.

As we were leaving I spyed a big room on the ground floor with some B&W matrix monitors - had to go anf have a quick listen - the music was not my sort of thing but you could immediately tell that it sounded right, sweet and transparent. What amazed me more was that the system was being actively run with three Behringer A500 amps - I have a couple of these and I think they sound diabolical - anyway had a brief chat with the bloke as I though he must have modded the amps in some way - but no they were stock - he suggested that my Croft pre may not like them for some reason, so I will be experimenting again with those amps :eyebrows: He had them sounding fantastic.

Had a ciggie out the front with one of the lads on the door - big bloke- he said it was way busier than previous years and they might be looking for a bigger venue for the next one. I have to say too many of the systems were in tiny bedrooms and in some cases on the upper floors you could feel and hear the floor soaking up the bass, which was a shame.

Other than that minor ctiticism it was a great day out and good to put names to faces as others have said already. One thing I did bring away with me is that my humble lash up is actually bloody good in the scheme of things, not what I exprected at all - there were only a couple of systems I heard that had it beat, hmm maybe I should exhibit next year... :)

Rare Bird
05-03-2012, 10:59
Had a ciggie out the front with one of the lads on the door - big bloke- he said it was way busier than previous years and they might be looking for a bigger venue for the next one.

:drool:

Alex_UK
05-03-2012, 10:59
Cheap as chips - the Cambridge/RAM combo was very good, said hello to Alex Uk but he seemed a little stressed. Room was very busy.

Martin - really sorry I didn't get to talk to you properly - the room was properly RAMmed (:lol:) most of the day, (at one point we had 30 people in there, and frequently c.20 people!) and I've a very croaky voice today from so much gas-bagging. Again, sorry for not having the time for a proper chat I owe you a beer in the bar next year. :cool:

Macca
05-03-2012, 11:07
Martin - really sorry I didn't get to talk to you properly - the room was properly RAMmed (:lol:) most of the day, (at one point we had 30 people in there, and frequently c.20 people!) and I've a very croaky voice today from so much gas-bagging. Again, sorry for not having the time for a proper chat I owe you a beer in the bar next year. :cool:

No worries mate - you had one of the best sounds of the show, I heard a few people commenting that they had wasted their money on their own systems!

Jac Hawk
05-03-2012, 11:14
Well im still in bed:) but it was a top show and all the folks that exhibited need a pat on the back, especially if you weren't on the ground floor.

Quote of the day has to be Marco when asked about the problems setting up John and Vics romm, his response was "the problem is its too rectangular" :rfl:

keiths
05-03-2012, 11:21
Sounds like it was a great day out and well done to Alex and Mike for making a real success of the CaC concept.

RochaCullen
05-03-2012, 11:31
More pics please...

:cool:

Alex_UK
05-03-2012, 11:33
One of the things that was really hammered home is how much you are listening to the room - we were very luck, in that although we had quite a big room (7.3m x 5.5m) it was up in the eaves, and had very solid floors and very thick carpet and underlay - there were also far too many office type chairs in there, but all that foam just helped act as bass traps I think.

Jac Hawk
05-03-2012, 11:45
Thanks keith, to be honest it was a little intimidating to start with, i mean i turned up with a boot load of scrap basically, i was half expecting Alex and me to be sat there twiddling our thumbs for the day, or at least been able to have a good look round, i knew after i'd plugged my system in and Martin came up for a listen that we wouldn't be embarrassing ourselves, he turned round to me and said "you're doing everything we tell people on the forum not to do and it sounds great" plus the room as Alex said was Ram'd one of the kindest comments i had was from a guy (and apologies that i didn't catch his name) when he said "you could easily listen to these systems all day long"

Also the amount of people that said we should make the C.a.C room a regular on the Scalford calendar, was very flattering, a few people even thought because we had put price tags on everything, that we were actually selling it off.

So am i up for it next year? YES and it would be great to see a few others drop some C.a.C on us next time:eyebrows:

Jac Hawk
05-03-2012, 11:51
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp138/Breckland_Audio/Scalford%202012/P1000124.jpg

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp138/Breckland_Audio/Scalford%202012/P1000126.jpg

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp138/Breckland_Audio/Scalford%202012/P1000125.jpg

anthonyTD
05-03-2012, 11:53
Here's an idea,
Next year, why not raffle off the CAC system for charity, obviously everything would have to be donated so no-one would be out of pocket etc, james[ wigwam] seemed to think it a good idea, when a few of us were discusing the succes of the CAC room at the bar at the end of the show.
Just a thought.
A...

Clive
05-03-2012, 11:54
One of the things that was really hammered home is how much you are listening to the room - we were very luck, in that although we had quite a big room (7.3m x 5.5m) it was up in the eaves, and had very solid floors and very thick carpet and underlay - there were also far too many office type chairs in there, but all that foam just helped act as bass traps I think.
That's so true. Last week I spent 30 quid on acousic foam and adhesive. I couldn't have got the level of improvement I achieved had I spent £3,000 on equipment.

Jac Hawk
05-03-2012, 11:58
Good idea Anthony, by the way mate are you not knackered, i mean i left before you, and then you had to go to south Wales via Wrexham:eek:

anthonyTD
05-03-2012, 12:02
Good idea Anthony, by the way mate are you not knackered, i mean i left before you, and then you had to go to south Wales via Wrexham:eek:
Hi Mike,
I am a bit mate :eek: can hardly speak as my voice has almost gone, must have been all the Chatting, i am welsh after all.:lol:
Once again,realy good to have met you, the type of guy you can have a realy good laugh with, top bloke.
Anthony,TD...

sq225917
05-03-2012, 12:19
The CAC room was great, sorry i left it until so late in the day before coming up, I was all listened out.

Jac Hawk
05-03-2012, 12:26
Once again,realy good to have met you, the type of guy you can have a realy good laugh with, top bloke.
Anthony,TD...

Thanks mate, same from me. Must say all the guys i met for real and not just on the forum were great, one of the best weekends i've had in a very long time, the Thai restaurant was great too (well done John). thinking back the only truly crap system i heard all weekend was the bloody PA setup that band had on Saturday night:eek:, i pity the fools :lol:

Jac Hawk
05-03-2012, 12:30
The CAC room was great, sorry i left it until so late in the day before coming up, I was all listened out.

It was great to meet you Simon, and i hope you liked our offerings, i must admit i was greatly impressed with your room, woman friendly speakers and man sized bass, a rare combo ;)

Rare Bird
05-03-2012, 12:31
Yeh Anthony seems a nice bloke, last time i was there i was totaly oblivious to being sat no more than a foot away from him :doh:

Alex:
You can raffle those RAM's upto out house :lolsign:

Jac Hawk
05-03-2012, 12:37
that's me all over mate, crap with names, need faces, i was introduced to loads of people from the forum, and until you know there screen name, you're stood there thinking "who the fcuk are you" i was stood next to Mark aka Reid Malenfant for a good five minutes before we both realised:doh:

YNWaN
05-03-2012, 12:41
Hi Mark,

Ah, yes... But unknown to you, the Salvation turntable (with the Terminator vertical tracking, air-bearing arm) was also running with its own (Nighthawk) solid-state phono stage, as from where the T/T was cited, the tonearm leads wouldn't reach my Croft preamp...

Actually, I spotted the phonostage perched on its platform next to the arm.


As for the "unofficial AoS room", it belonged to John and Vic (AoS music room mod and the designer of the Salvation T/T and Terminator tonearm respectively), but we also brought some of our kit to put into their system, which ended up staying there.

Hmm..I thought it was a non-trade show. I know Andrew specifically didn't take his turntable to avoid any suggestion of trade exhibiting through the back door.


Which T/T did you prefer? Btw, nice meeting you again, mate :)

Well, I hugely preferred the Technics. However, I wasn't taken with the speakers and would suggest that the bass DSP needs a bit more consideration.

Effem
05-03-2012, 13:13
:worthless:

For those of us that didn't for whatever reason get to Scalford, it would be champion is someone who did attend to be a bit more forthcoming than writing things like "Bert's room was wonderful, the Wosname speakers were a pleasant surprise and fancy meeting Ethelred who was taller in the flesh than I had imagined".

A bit like " . . . . and here's what you would have won" :(

Marco
05-03-2012, 13:31
Hi Mark,


Hmm..I thought it was a non-trade show. I know Andrew specifically didn't take his turntable to avoid any suggestion of trade exhibiting through the back door.


I think the T/T was John's, as was most of the other kit, apart from mine and Martin's.


Well, I hugely preferred the Technics. However, I wasn't taken with the speakers and would suggest that the bass DSP needs a bit more consideration.

Regarding the latter, I agree, but I suppose it is difficult integrating everything optimally in a hotel room. As for the Salvation T/T, it wasn't at its best due to the air-bearing arm not reacting well to the wobbly wooden floor of the hotel room.

There were many aspects of the OBs I liked, but they were mainly in the mid and top-end. However, I've no doubts that they work much better in Vic (and John's) systems at home :)

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
05-03-2012, 18:58
As usual, a mixed bag with many sounds very much not to my taste at all! My particular plaudits go to:


Flatpopely's Nait/Kan setup, which was definitely 'of its time' but nevertheless very enjoyable and musical.

Speedy Steve's horns are the first example of the breed that don't sound 'horny' and which I would want to hear again

Meninblack & Testure's room with Tannoy Autograph Minis, which were rather lovely, with bass depth belying their tiny cabinets. I liked the Lego speaker mounting block too!

Beobloke's B&O setup completely surprised me with its musical performance.

All of this proves that this is a diverse hobby and individual tastes vary enormously, since many of the rooms that I found to be truly awful have been well rated by others. Having done this sort of thing just once, I do sympathise with the exhibitors trying to get a decent sound in some really rather pokey rooms.

Now Marco, what about the AoS Bake-Off Show? After mid-Oct, please!

YNWaN
05-03-2012, 19:11
Btw, nice meeting you again, mate :)

Yes, you too :).

Bazil
05-03-2012, 19:22
ical performance.[/LIST]
Now Marco, what about the AoS Bake-Off Show? After mid-Oct, please!

Yes that would be great, I've been a Wammer longer purely because I didn't know of the existence of AOS till my mate who knows Marco well mentioned it.
I like both forums and it was strange meeting AOS members with my Wammers ID round my neck, confused Marco when I introduced myself. :)
It would be nice to circulate with my AOS monica at an AOS show.

northwest
05-03-2012, 20:00
As usual, a mixed bag with many sounds very much not to my taste at all!
I am not sure you are referring to the music or the actual sound produced by some of the systems but I for one was particularly disappointed with some of the very "out of left field" musical offerings.
I really enjoyed the show and accompanied by Martin (Macca) we tried to see as much as possible but still missed some rooms out:( I met some of you and it was really nice to be able to put a face to the name as they say. The CaC room was the highlight for me and now I can certainly reccommend Vinyl to the "yoofs" knowing that you CAN get a decent system together for less than £100. Some of you that I didn't catch up with was a bit of a bummer but hey! There will be more shows. At least I hope there will!
Getting back to the choice of music. First off, I listen to some stuff I wouldn't subject my worst enemy to. It is really, really niche stuff. So when I have some friends 'round and they want to listen to some tunes I play it safe every time. The phrase "easy listening" springs to mind. So why some exhibitors thought it a good idea to play stuff that was so on the fringe astonished me. I was under the impression that it was an Audio Show, not a Music Festival. Okay, I am being a bit combative with these sort of remarks but for me certainly I went to listen to a variety of systems, not music. Yes, I know, most (all) exhibitors would be happy to play anyone's music but it would be a bit off barging into a room and saying - "er mate, turn that off and put this on will ya, gotta get round the whole show!" Much better to be playing something that there would be at least half a chance of the audience having heard. That way, for me certainly, I would have an idea of what I was comparing the sound to.
Just my opinion and please don't take this as a criticism anyone because I for one am only too well aware of the time and effort required dragging kit half way around the countryside and then around a building to set it all up then break it all down and take it home AND pay for the privelage!

northwest
05-03-2012, 20:04
Oh. And just for the record - I still didn't get any pies and therefore Mike - you owe me a Pie. Don't ask, just accept. You-owe-me-a-Pie.
Will collect next time I have to go up to Washington.

Ammonite Audio
05-03-2012, 20:07
I am not sure you are referring to the music or the actual sound produced by some of the systems but I for one was particularly disappointed with some of the very "out of left field" musical offerings...

Mostly the latter, although one particular room was playing some sort of dirge, which is not my sort of thing at all.

YNWaN
05-03-2012, 20:59
So why some exhibitors thought it a good idea to play stuff that was so on the fringe astonished me.

You surprise me, I heard quite a lot of music at the show that wasn't to my personal taste, but I didn't hear any I thought particularly 'fringe' in nature (well, perhaps the thash metal track - but I only heard that once).


but it would be a bit off barging into a room and saying - "er mate, turn that off and put this on will ya, gotta get round the whole show!"

Well, yes it would, if you chose to phrase it in that manner. However, I found that saying something like "excuse me, do you think it would be possible to put this on" worked wonders and nobody was in the slightest put out.


Much better to be playing something that there would be at least half a chance of the audience having heard.

How wide, or narrow, would you have exhibitors presume visitors musical experience to be? It can't all be Dire Straits, Chris Rea and Phil Collins you know (thankfully).

Jac Hawk
05-03-2012, 21:04
Oh. And just for the record - I still didn't get any pies and therefore Mike - you owe me a Pie. Don't ask, just accept. You-owe-me-a-Pie.
Will collect next time I have to go up to Washington.

Mate all you had to do was come to the CAC room and ask me for one:ner: i had a name tag on as well so i was kinda easy to spot:eyebrows:

Clive
05-03-2012, 21:12
You surprise me, I heard quite a lot of music at the show that wasn't to my personal taste, but I didn't hear any I thought particularly 'fringe' in nature (well, perhaps the thash metal track - but I only heard that once).



Well, yes it would, if you chose to phrase it in that manner. However, I found that saying something like "excuse me, do you think it would be possible to put this on" worked wonders and nobody was in the slightest put out.



How wide, or narrow, would you have exhibitors presume visitors musical experience to be? It can't all be Dire Straits, Chris Rea and Phil Collins you know (thankfully).
I've thought for a while that 50% of music played at shows should come from a set (small) repetoire to allow easier comparisons. Dire Straits can work, especially with their range of recordings, though they are rather hackneyed.

YNWaN
05-03-2012, 21:23
I think that's true of commercial shows, where the music really is a vehicle to demonstrate the equipment (that is being sold), but amateur shows like this are another matter in my opinion.

Look at jazz for example, I like trad jazz - but a lot of jazz is just very plinkety plonky for me (and friends of mine) - but then a lot of people like it.

I think that what people should do is play music that plays well to their systems strengths and within its limits (which isn't always the case).

Clive
05-03-2012, 21:30
That's why I suggested 50% and even with the restricted repertoire there would be a choice. People are bound to want to compare in some way. Maybe for this show there could be an event signature track played once per hour? Some of these things I suggested in the days when we communicated...:-)

Jonboy
05-03-2012, 21:36
I think that what people should do is play music that plays well to their systems strengths and within its limits (which isn't always the case).


We had that conversation on the way home as well after hearing some systems falll apart at times with a certain music choice which is a shame as you tend to walk into a room and walk straight out again thus makng an assumption that the system is sounding shit when actually it just the music is just not suited to it :scratch:

navigator
05-03-2012, 21:40
I write as a regular exhibitor. The choice of music appears to be a huge factor with many visitors' judgements of the systems presentation-its very very personal-most cope poorly with jazz or classic or folk.Indeed 'live' recordings[my love] can cause opinions on one's system to be skewed negatively.
I've found over the years that the much derided Dire Straits are well known and allow comparison of the demo system with their own at home or with others in show. I thought this must be an age thing until this year when I and Freefallrob displayed a range of lp's openly ----and requested choices to be made. Guess what got chosen most-D.S.
To my surprise younger addicts also chose this and not recent discs
I asked and they said 'I was brought up on it'.
I'm sure there are other artists too. Perhaps a standard track should be adopted by exhibitors should they wish to show up different presentations?
This year we got several LP's off room visitors. They too have a very eclectic choice!! Some did not show off the gear in its best light and other more critical visitors would leave with a dim view of the systems capability-quite different to forming an opinion having heard the more rigorous test tracks selected by the exhibitors.
So a tricky problem indeed for those wishing to select gear for possible purchase.or to criticise.
Be lucky when you visit a room---or be wise and take a disc you know.
This is a truly great show and great enthusiasts and great visitors. Anyone interested in music should attend [and chat] especially members of hifi forums.

YNWaN
05-03-2012, 21:42
Some of these things I suggested in the days when we communicated...:-)

But I don't have anything to do with the organisation of the show.

To be honest, If I were to exhibit at such a show, I would be reluctant to accept a fixed playlist if I didn't like it; I wouldn't even be keen on a single fixed track if I felt it was a poor choice (mind you, I suppose its not much different to playing visitors choices, and I would be happy to do that).

YNWaN
05-03-2012, 21:49
The choice of music appears to be a huge factor with many visitors' judgements of the systems presentation...

Yes, I quite agree, that is also my experience. I too have found that many visitors will like a system just because it is playing music they like and vice versa; they will happily ignore, or listen through, glaring sonic issues.

_____________________

I was in one of the exhibitors (friends) rooms and they were playing a Dire Straits record; I was teasing one of my friends about it and one of the visitors in the room said that he had only come into said room because he heard Dire Straits coming from it (presumably this meant he didn't go in to many rooms)!

Reid Malenfant
05-03-2012, 21:56
I think that what people should do is play music that plays well to their systems strengths and within its limits (which isn't always the case).
:rolleyes: It doesn't give any idea what the system can do though does it!

Ok, so I don't listen to what most people listen to :D I can't believe how many systems I heard playing easy stuff, you know - human voice at Scalford.. :)

It appears they are afraid of playing something that might get the room interacting? Like lets not do any bass as it might offend :lol:

I think I have a chicken thing here somewhere 6331

lol...


Johns room didn't excite until some clever person put on some Yello, I thought there was something missing until then & all of a sudden his OB speakers produced bass on top of an image that I thought was frankly incredible.

My first taste of OBs, given the right material & a well set up system (though I reckon there was some upper bass/lower mid lacking a tad) I know I was more than surprised ;)

northwest
05-03-2012, 21:57
But I don't have anything to do with the organisation of the show.

To be honest, If I were to exhibit at such a show, I would be reluctant to accept a fixed playlist if I didn't like it; I wouldn't even be keen on a single fixed track if I felt it was a poor choice (mind you, I suppose its not much different to playing visitors choices, and I would be happy to do that).

This is it really isn't it? There is no answer, no solution. It is a conundrum in the strictest sense. I just feel that although much music - The Wall anyone? - is derided at these sort of 'do's' it IS the music that many are familiar with. There is no real solution, no answer but certainly it is no place to demo your mate's daughters boyfriends latest attempt at Kareoke!

YNWaN
05-03-2012, 22:05
:rolleyes: It doesn't give any idea what the system can do though does it!

:rolleyes: Well that's why you can always take your own disk of 'test tracks' - and nicely ask the person running the room to play a track or two.

My experience of this show (and trade shows) is that, if you ask politely, the vast majority of people will play whatever you ask for (if they can). However, if one is too shy to ask and expects the chap running the room to guess what you might like you will probably be waiting a very long time; in fact, if you like soul (for example), you would be waiting an exceedingly long time for me to spontaneously play any!

The same chap I mentioned earlier who stated he came into the room because he heard Dire Straits coming from it also said he would be leaving immediately any Pink Floyd was played (which tempted me enormously).

Clive
05-03-2012, 22:07
:rolleyes: It doesn't give any idea what the system can do though does it!

Ok, so I don't listen to what most people listen to :D I can't believe how many systems I heard playing easy stuff, you know - human voice at Scalford.. :)

It appears they are afraid of playing something that might get the room interacting? Like lets not do any bass as it might offend :lol:

I think I have a chicken thing here somewhere 6331

lol...


Johns room didn't excite until some clever person put on some Yello, I thought there was something missing until then & all of a sudden his OB speakers produced bass on top of an image that I thought was frankly incredible.

My first taste of OBs, given the right material & a well set up system (though I reckon there was some upper bass/lower mid lacking a tad) I know I was more than surprised ;)

You wanna hear those speakers with two 15 inchers per side!

cuddles
05-03-2012, 22:07
OK - Does anyone know what awful music was being played? Let's have a playlist.

Marco - what stuff did you bring?

Audioman
05-03-2012, 22:22
Choice of Music is a difficult issue. A realy good system should do justice to all types of music. The usual suspects - Dire Straits, The Wall etc are frequently played both because they remain popular but are also damn good ANALOGUE recordings. Yes at least a proper all analogue recording should be used in a vinyl based system.

Unfortunately some records do not impress because they are poorly recorded or the mastering is bad, Often producing a flat lifeless sound which is not the fault of the equipment. Also classical music played at lowish volume usualy fails to impress.

Most exhibitors have a choice of their own music and are happy to play something that is to the listeners taste if asked. It obviously helps if you are listening to something you have heard on your own home system. I have gone home and played the same material and usualy am pleasantly surprised by how good it sound v the 'better' system at a show. I am firmly of the opinion that how good a system sounds is down to a well recorded source and the speaker matching with amplification and room acoustics.

Marco
05-03-2012, 22:24
Hi Mark,

Good to see you back and also to meet you again on Sunday, buddy! :yesbruv: :thumbsup:


Johns room didn't excite until some clever person put on some Yello...


Ahem... Guilty as charged! :eyebrows:


I thought there was something missing until then & all of a sudden his OB speakers produced bass on top of an image that I thought was frankly incredible.

My first taste of OBs, given the right material & a well set up system (though I reckon there was some upper bass/lower mid lacking a tad) I know I was more than surprised

Nice one, dude. I know you liked it, as you were sitting beside me when it was playing! :D

I thought that overall, especially given the nature of the (quite frankly horrid) room acoustics, we produced a decent sound from those OBs, although, for me, that was only the case when the Beringer was moved to handle the bass, and then replaced by the copper amp for the mid and top, and the Croft was brought in for preamp duties.

Only when some top-notch thermionic lurveliness was introduced, did the OBs truly shine (providing of course that, in general, one enjoys the presentation of OBs). For me, OBs need to be driven by quality valve amplification, as otherwise their highly revealing nature in the midrange and upper frequencies simply murders the often rather harsh and grainy sonic presentation of anything less than the best solid-state kit.

Marco.

Marco
05-03-2012, 22:37
Hi Simon,


Marco - what stuff did you bring?

I brought around 50 albums on vinyl, full of all sorts of interesting music, but sadly never got to play any of it, as it was left in bags inside my car, which I never got a chance to bring in...

On the Saturday night we were too busy setting up the system, and we also went out for a curry, and on the Sunday I was either busy in John's room or going round the other rooms of the show.

However, the comments about music choice have been taken on board and will be addressed when we do our own show :cool:


Now Marco, what about the AoS Bake-Off Show? After mid-Oct, please!


Noted, Hugo. I think that'll be exactly when we'll do it.

Marco.

Macca
05-03-2012, 22:49
With regards to the music played I would agree that evry room was very happy to play requests, more than that they wanted requests and actively solicited them, So there is no need to have a test track or a playlist that is way too controlling and would take all the fun out of it. I did think about bringing a couple of CDs but I hate to carry stuff around. But I could have done and they would have got played if I had asked I am sure.

What actually shocked me was listening to other people's requests - the people who had brought music with them. Thyese were not recordings they had just grabbed off the shelf - these were their favourite recordings - you have to assume.

Now each unto his own not withstanding if that is what you love to listen to then half a sleeping tablet and a Bell's minature is a lot cheaper and more convenient then a hi=fi system. It actually got to the point where I would look at Graham and we would both start laughing. Maybe we were just unlucky in that we were in rooms on the odd occasion they were playing something 'eclectic'...but...I don't know...

Clive
05-03-2012, 22:55
Controlling or bringing 5 mins of order toi the process every hour? Laughing ain't so cool either! :-)

sq225917
05-03-2012, 22:55
I ended up playing more Led Zep, Radiohead and Ella, than anything else, all good choices all great recordings.

Macca
05-03-2012, 22:59
Controlling or bringing 5 mins of order toi the process every hour? Laughing ain't so cool either! :-)

Not laughing out loud, naturally ;)

Macca
05-03-2012, 23:00
I ended up playing more Led Zep, Radiohead and Ella, than anything else, all good choices all great recordings.

You see I wouldn't have thanked you for the Radiohead but at least it is recognisably music to me.

chelsea
06-03-2012, 01:08
Great show and really enjoyed.
Nice to hear people played varied stuff.

After bristol listening to tin pan alley and solid air so often drives me nuts.
I'd hate a setlist of the same stuff.

Tin pan alley sounds good on nearly every system i;ve heard and tells me nothing.

I know some are not mad on scalford as a show venue,but i like it's quirkeness and hope it stays there.

The thought of doing a show at a travelodge or similar has no appeal to me.

alfie2902
06-03-2012, 01:21
Hi All,
yes, i think the CAC room was a real ear opener for many, Alex and mike did a great job in there and are both realy nice top blokes.
well done.
Great to finaly meet a few more of you, Glad Mark Reid made it to the show, Realy Nice guy in the flesh, hope he comes back posting soon.
Good to meet up with some of the Wam boys again, Alfie, James, Big D, Guy S etc.
Anthony,TD...

Hi all,

It was great to meet up again Anthony, if a little brief, there's so much to see & hear that the time just seems to disappear so quickly. Good also to catch up with Marco & meet Jonboy for the first time too, again all to brief.

I thought it was another great show! Lots of great kit to hear & some very good sounds happening in most rooms. In fact I made it around probably 75% of the rooms & they were all pretty good tbh. Perhaps not all the kit I would choose to live with, but still very enjoyable all the same.

I think the first show started as a bit of a challenge from the industry to see if the enthusiasts/forum users, who moaned about poor sounding rooms at industry shows, could put on a show & better the sound quality. I think the music played also reflects this in that people shy away from plinky-plonky jazz & alot of the common recordings used at industry shows and play 'real' music, whatever that is! With that in mind you're going hear all kinds of music, some to your taste & some not. If you want to hear something specific take it with you & ask to have it played. This is strongly encouraged at the Wam show & is stated on the website & flyers & in the show threads over on the Wam. I very much doubt a playlist would work, owners want to play their own music, requests from their collections & anything you bring & ask them to play.

I loved it & can't wait for the next one, or the next smaller bake-off & would be well up for coming to an AoS show!

Clive
06-03-2012, 07:04
The suggestion was either 50% setlist or just 1 track per hour to be set. Both these, especially the latter, leave a huge amount of freedom for any music to be played.

It seems there's a strong anti feeling, so be it. It's not like I can change anything anyway.

DSJR
06-03-2012, 09:03
Tin Pan Alley may well sound good on most things, but for this much played track to actually tell a STORY is a very different matter, believe me :)

MartinT
06-03-2012, 09:15
until some clever person put on some Yello

That'll be me!

Marco
06-03-2012, 09:45
Lol... We both played it, but the occasion that Mark's referring to was when I'd just put it on your Techy before he came into the room the second time, after we had connected the T/T to my Croft phono stage :)

Marco.

MartinT
06-03-2012, 10:12
Ah, good choice there for Mark. I think Yello/Touch went down well throughout the day, seemed to suit John's OBs well and who could object to Heidi Happy's voice?

You missed the moment when a bunch of more senior gentlemen were sitting in the room and I put Frank Sinatra/Live at the Sands on. They were loving it!

Beobloke
06-03-2012, 10:24
Having bought the full 13 minute version of 'The Race' a few months back I was all ready to play it when the chap in my room looked at it in my hand, groaned and said "Oh, god, anything but Yello; please".

You can't win! (and I never did get round to playing it......:()

Marco
06-03-2012, 10:29
You missed the moment when a bunch of more senior gentlemen were sitting in the room and I put Frank Sinatra/Live at the Sands on. They were loving it!


Ha - nice one. I haven't played that for ages, so will give it a spin later!

You should really obtain an SPU sometime, as a second cartridge option for your DV, after your Shelter, as it works beautifully on it. An SPU would provide you with an interesting contrast of sonic signatures for optimising playing certain types of music.

You could sell your other 'spare' cartridges to fund it. If I were you, Martin, I'd seriously consider it... Perhaps you could have my Classic GM (E), when I upgrade to a Royal GM MKII? :)

Don't worry, it won't be until at least next year, as I want to upgrade my SUT first! :eyebrows:

Marco.

MartinT
06-03-2012, 13:55
Put me on the waiting list, Marco!

However, I so like the Shelter's sound in my system that another path might be to upgrade to a 7000, 9000 or Harmony. Can you believe there are three more levels above mine?!

Anyway, I'm skint after the P10 so I'll be just enjoying it as-is for the moment.

Mike
06-03-2012, 14:44
Having lived in Great Ayton for a while Petch's Pie shop was strategically located next to the Royal Oak Inn and a Saturday morning meant get the pies before you went to the pub because they were sold out by afternoon.

You may be the Pie King Sir, but I am still the connoisseur:lol:

I used to live there too! :)

Petch's on a Saturday morning while they were still warm.... ah yes!

DSJR
06-03-2012, 20:01
Having bought the full 13 minute version of 'The Race' a few months back I was all ready to play it when the chap in my room looked at it in my hand, groaned and said "Oh, god, anything but Yello; please".

You can't win! (and I never did get round to playing it......:()

That disc ain't that wonderful. You should have played Yello's "The Rhythm Divine" sung by Burly Chassis - cough :lol: - oooooohhhhhhhhh......

navigator
06-03-2012, 21:05
Re critics of systems presentations
All presentations are valid .
Objective opinion is wanted by readers of their posts-that's useful to those who are unable to visit -not subjective preferences such as 'liked x's room'.
Does anyone agree with me that persons making 'comparisons' should have used the same track in each room and commented on the different [not worse or better] presentations?
We are all looking to improve our gear aren't we? That has to be a prime reason to attend or read 'reviews'.
P.S. Totally terrific folks at Scalford -don't get wrong idea from posts.

Macca
06-03-2012, 21:20
Re critics of systems presentations
All presentations are valid .
Objective opinion is wanted by readers of their posts-that's useful to those who are unable to visit -not subjective preferences such as 'liked x's room'.
Does anyone agree with me that persons making 'comparisons' should have used the same track in each room and commented on the different [not worse or better] presentations?
We are all looking to improve our gear aren't we? That has to be a prime reason to attend or read 'reviews'.
P.S. Totally terrific folks at Scalford -don't get wrong idea from posts.

I felt that a couple of presentations did not fall into the category of 'different' - frankly they fell short of a miniumum standard of fidelity - that is they suffered from audible distortion resulting in a hard sound that is not pleasant to listen to. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the difficulty of carting your kit to the show and setting it up on the fly and quite possibly those systems sound fantastic in their home environment. A sorted system should sound good with any type of music, there is no need to hear the same track on every system to form an opinion, IMHO. If someone does not want to hear what other people think about their hi-fi then either don't exhibit it in public or, if you do. then don't read the reviews.

I thought the show was fabulous BTW and a credit to all who organised and took part.

Reid Malenfant
06-03-2012, 21:22
I felt that a couple of presentations did not fall into the category of 'different' - frankly they fell short of a miniumum standard of fidelity - that is they suffered from audible distortion resulting in a hard sound that is not pleasant to listen to. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the difficulty of carting your kit to the show and setting it up on the fly and quite possibly those systems sound fantastic in their home environment. A sorted system should sound good with any type of music, there is no need to hear the same track on every system to form an opinion, IMHO. If someone does not want to hear what other people think about their hi-fi then either don't exhibit it in public or, if you do. then don't read the reviews.

I thought the show was fabulous BTW and a credit to all who organised and took part.
So where the heck were you & why didn't I meet you :scratch:

Bugger :rolleyes:

Macca
06-03-2012, 21:26
So where the heck were you & why didn't I meet you :scratch:

Bugger :rolleyes:

I didn't know you were going mate or I would have asked about. Last I heard you were taking a sabbatical. Anyway good to see you virtually again :lol: We can meet up at this AOS show Marco is promising.

Reid Malenfant
06-03-2012, 21:29
Aye, we'll do just that when it comes to it :cool:

MartinT
06-03-2012, 21:31
LOL - your avatar just made me splutter my drink everywhere!

Marco
06-03-2012, 21:32
Lovin the new avatar, buddy! :lol:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
06-03-2012, 21:34
LOL - your avatar just made me splutter my drink everywhere!
:lol: I'm assuming you are refering to mine Martin, well I'm sorry you wasted some drink :eyebrows:


It's not going to be permanent :eyebrows:

Macca
06-03-2012, 21:37
Mark - did you get a chance to hear the active B&W/Behringer system? Have to say that has got me seriously thinking about following you down the active route with digital crossover - I have the amps already :eyebrows:

Reid Malenfant
06-03-2012, 21:48
Mark - did you get a chance to hear the active B&W/Behringer system? Have to say that has got me seriously thinking about following you down the active route with digital crossover - I have the amps already :eyebrows:
Yes, in the Cottesmore room... Rather large ;)

Had to have a chat with the chap that was running it as soon as I saw what was going on, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking out of the box, but I'd use better power amps.

As it happens I am :) Parasound (http://www.parasound.com/), in my case the HCA1206 & a beast for bass :cool:

Still it showed what could be done with the Behringer DCX2496 & Behringer A500 & it was pretty damn good from what I heard ;) Going to pee all over any passive crossover in reality.

Macca
06-03-2012, 21:52
He had a Behringer speaker management system as well It had a spectrum analyser on it, which is useful, I don't know what else it does. I also had to have a chat with him as I could not believe he had the A500s sounding so good, that is just not my prior experience of them, I thought he must have modded them, but he hadn't.

Reid Malenfant
06-03-2012, 21:57
That was the Behringer DEQ2496, or if you like digital graphic equaliser which I know nothing about....

I run things straight from my pre to the DCX crossovers, no messing with the response ;)

Macca
06-03-2012, 21:59
Right -so how do you determain your crossover points? Maths, or by ear - or both? I should probably just go back and read your thread on this again shouldn't I?

Reid Malenfant
06-03-2012, 22:20
Right -so how do you determain your crossover points? Maths, or by ear - or both? I should probably just go back and read your thread on this again shouldn't I?
Not as easy as that I'm afraid :rolleyes: You need to know the responses of individual drivers & most importantly their piston range, IE where they'll give a flat response with no breakup.

A lot of two way speakers have a crossover that rolls off the midrange up to the crossover point way lower than the crossover point simply because the bass/mid driver gets a bit peaky in the midrange due to it going into breakup mode.

3 way systems suffer from it less, but they suffer from other problems depending on the crossover order.

A lot of this is chucked out the window when you go active as you'll likely have steep filters (24Db/octave or 48Db/octave) & in the case of the DCX you can accurately time align the drivers to 1mm of each other :)

Apparently there is also some kind of EQ on each driver band, though I haven't used it so can't comment. This may be handy in controlling a driver or if you like getting a flat response just like the theoretical 2 way I mentioned earlier...

Offski.... Bests to you!

Cotlake
06-03-2012, 22:42
Mark - did you get a chance to hear the active B&W/Behringer system?

Yep, I and a couple of mates picked up on that system. IMHO it was the best sound at the show. You could sit there all day listening to it and never get fatigued. Basically an adaption of a studio set up but the real consideration is, look what 'SergeAukland' achieved with some fairly low cost kit. I acknowledge the speakers were expensive vintage and the Meridian front end are/were expensive, but I was gobsmacked with the smooth ease of sound that came through the Behringer active crossover and amps. The Behringer influence, relatively speaking is a 'cheap as chips' option and it makes me wonder whether I should be doing that thing rather than messing with my beloved valve amps. What do you think?

Macca
06-03-2012, 22:48
It was the last system I heard and thinking back the only system that rivalled it was Speedy Steve's horns. The active ATC and the ground floor room with the Linn/naim set up and the big floorstanders (forget what they were) ran it close but if you were to ask me to take home any one system, yes almost certainly the active B&W.

Marco
06-03-2012, 23:18
Hi Greg,


Yep, I and a couple of mates picked up on that system. IMHO it was the best sound at the show. You could sit there all day listening to it and never get fatigued. Basically an adaption of a studio set up but the real consideration is, look what 'SergeAukland' achieved with some fairly low cost kit. I acknowledge the speakers were expensive vintage and the Meridian front end are/were expensive, but I was gobsmaked with the smooth ease of sound that came through the Behringer active crossover and amps. The Behringer influence, relatively speaking is a 'cheap as chips' option and it makes me wonder whether I should be doing that thing rather than messing with my beloved valve amps. What do you think?

Lol - it just shows how people's ears are so different! Anthony TD and I also listened to that system and thought it was quite shocking - totally flat, boring and devoid of musical interest :eyebrows:

Perhaps it was the music playing at the time when we were in? One's opinion on these matters can so easily be skewed by listening to music one dislikes...

Marco.

Marco
06-03-2012, 23:24
Hi Martin,


It was the last system I heard and thinking back the only system that rivalled it was Speedy Steve's horns. The active ATC and the ground floor room with the Linn/naim set up and the big floorstanders (forget what they were) ran it close but if you were to ask me to take home any one system, yes almost certainly the active B&W.

Did you manage to get to the John/AoS room? :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
06-03-2012, 23:31
LOL - your avatar just made me splutter my drink everywhere!

Me too 'flash harry' the pigeon :lol:


Regards D S D L

Macca
06-03-2012, 23:32
Hi Martin,



Did you manage to get to the John/AoS room? :)

Marco.

Yes I did, listened to your Technics deck and then we were hoping to hear the Salvation but there were some bass feedback issues and then after a debate (I don't think Jon was there at the time) it was back to your Technics. The sound was good but I thought the open baffles lacked a bit for bass although that is personal preference, other wise the sound was sweet and musical.

Funny how we should disagree about the B&W system - they were playing something I would never listen to but it did sound so right and sweet, after hearing about 40 systems previously (it was the last room I went in) I felt I was pretty 'tuned in' by that point

Marco
06-03-2012, 23:40
Hi Martin,


Yes I did, listened to your Technics deck and then we were hoping to hear the Salvation but there were some bass feedback issues and then after a debate (I don't think Jon was there at the time) it was back to your Technics. The sound was good but I thought the open baffles lacked a bit for bass although that is personal preference, other wise the sound was sweet and musical.


No worries, dude. Yep, it was a pity that the Salvation didn't really work properly. The OBs didn't lack bass, depending on the music being played and where you were sitting in the room. Can you remember what was playing when you were there?


Funny how we should disagree about the B&W system - they were playing something I would never listen to but it did sound so right and sweet, after hearing about 40 systems previously (it was the last room I went in) I felt I was pretty 'tuned in' by that point

I guess it's all down to personal taste. To me, it just sounded like typical mediocre solid-state: one dimensional, flat, grainy and non-descript. I generally dislike Behringer amps whenever I hear them.

As you were in that room and ours, the sound produced can't both have been 'sweet and musical', simply because the sound produced by both systems was entirely different! ;)

Marco.

Cotlake
06-03-2012, 23:41
Lol - it just shows how people's ears are so different! Anthony TD and I also listened to that system and thought it was quite shocking - totally flat, boring and devoid of musical interest :eyebrows:
Marco.

Hmmmm, your statement probably confirms what I have always thought about your personal take on sound. You don't get what I get and I don't get what you get. We should leave it there.

PS. SergeAukland's room was still the best :eyebrows:

Marco
06-03-2012, 23:50
Sure, Greg. However, I'm surprised you say that about Serge's system, as you're a valve man, and Behringer amps are about as far removed from producing the sound of a good valve amp as one could possibly imagine! ;)

I also dislike the 'measuring everything to buggery' approach to audio, as it so often misses the bigger (and more important) picture. The sound that Serge's system produced, for me, typified that approach.

Anyway, as they say, each to his or her own :)

Marco.

Macca
06-03-2012, 23:51
Hi Marco

No I don't recall, we sat through 5 or 6 tracks, nothing I recognised, though.

With regards to sweet and musical - yes both systems were that despite the totally different approaches. They differed radically in presentation but both systems were pleasant to the ear which is the basic starting point for me - if a system does that then we can argue about which does bass better, what has better instrumental texture, stereo image and so on. But if it is not sounding sweet to begin with forget it because something is badly wrong. Hope you see whre I am coming from with that.

I agree with you about Behringer amps ( I have a couple lying around) which is partly why I was so impressed with that system. They sounded sweet as a nut.

Marco
07-03-2012, 00:06
No worries, dude. As far as Serge's system goes, we'll just have to agree to disagree :)

I will say though that it was better than what he put together last year, with all that active room correction pish, which totally robbed the system of any 'musicality', and those horrid, anodyne sounding Meridian speakers!

Marco.

Macca
07-03-2012, 00:16
No worries, dude. As far as Serge's system goes, we'll just have to agree to disagree :)

!

Marco.

I guess so ;)

I wasn't there last year so I don't know what that was like, my limited experience of active Meridians is that it is very difficult to partner them with something that works and doesn't make them sound like a bag of spanners hitting a Rolla-shutter

Cotlake
07-03-2012, 00:27
Sure, Greg. However, I'm surprised you say that about Serge's system, as you're a valve man, and Behringer amps are about as far removed from producing the sound of a good valve amp as one could possibly imagine! ;)

Yep, I completely agree and that is why I was gobsmacked by what Serge produced through his system. It was completely absorbing, mellow and dynamically balanced in sound. I actually requested him to put on some up tempo sound to challenge the system which he did. It all sounded so good. Of course, it could be a very different experience putting it all into our own homes.


I also dislike the 'measuring everything to buggery' approach to audio, as it so often misses the bigger (and more important) picture. The sound that Serge's system produced, for me, typified that approach.

Well actually you're not getting this at all. It's not about measuring everything and certainly doesn't miss any bigger or more important picture. The system is set up and played and then listened to. The sound balance is aurally assessed and if there is a need to tweek the output of the system, the active crossover is adjusted. I understand that in this case, a lift was applied around 80Hz to accommodate the room. Other than that, little was done. That does show the versitility of the Behringer active crossover. I doubt I'll ever go down this route myself but I have to acknowledge that Serge has done a very clever thing with relatively cheap components. If what he did at Scalford he also has at home, bravo. I wish I had found a way to do that.

Marco
07-03-2012, 00:28
I wasn't there last year so I don't know what that was like, my limited experience of active Meridians is that it is very difficult to partner them with something that works and doesn't make them sound like a bag of spanners hitting a Rolla-shutter


Lol - they weren't offensive to listen to, just boring (laid back) and devoid of musical interest: you know, the sort of sound which simply washes over you, such as one might play as background music at a dinner party?

I like reproduced music from a hi-fi system to grab your attention and force you to listen, making the hairs stand up at the back of your neck in the process, with the appropriate material, just like, in my experience, listening to live music does.

Live music, when played by talented musicians, never sounds bland, and so neither should it, given the right recording, when played through a hi-fi system. It's Serge's obsession with the notion of 'transparency' (it doesn't exist in ANY equipment) and eliminating distortion (when not all distortion is bad - some of it is part of the music!) that, in my opinion, is his downfall.

However, that's not an argument which is likely to be settled anytime soon! ;)

Marco.

Marco
07-03-2012, 00:35
Well actually you're not getting this at all. It's not about measuring everything and certainly doesn't miss any bigger or more important picture.


You obviously haven't read his posts on Wigwam and pfm, some of which beggar belief! :mental:

Other than that, I can't argue with what you've written, although of course it doesn't tally with what Anthony or I heard. You should pop up to Wrexham sometime, so I can give you a proper handle on my approach to music-making with a hi-fi system.

Del's cooking is legendary, so I'm sure you'll enjoy that at least! :D

Marco.

Macca
07-03-2012, 00:38
Marco we are totally in agreement on what makes a good system/sound so no argument there. I listended to two tracks on that system, neither was musically demanding. I still got the impresion that it could do anything well. You surely had a longer listen than I did and to more varied material. Also Meridian is known for being a bit laid back so maybe it was the source you did not like?

Marco
07-03-2012, 00:54
I listended to two tracks on that system, neither was musically demanding. I still got the impresion that it could do anything well. You surely had a longer listen than I did and to more varied material.


Nope, we suffered it for 5 mins and then Anthony said that he'd had enough! :eyebrows:

Perhaps if we'd listened for longer then we'd have changed our minds? Anything is possible, I guess, but somehow I doubt it... The rats nest 'mains loom' he was using to power the system, full of el cheapo 'B&Q-style' mains blocks and nasty 'kettle leads', was enough to guarantee that the system could never produce a sound I'd be happy with :nono:


Also Meridian is known for being a bit laid back so maybe it was the source you did not like?

Quite possibly, but I'm also even less keen on Behringer amps, and nor am I a fan of B&W speakers, so I guess that the 'game was a bogey' from the off! ;)

Marco.

Effem
07-03-2012, 11:19
The rats nest 'mains loom' he was using to power the system, full of el cheapo 'B&Q-style' mains blocks and nasty 'kettle leads', was enough to guarantee that the system could never produce a sound I'd be happy with :nono:

Marco.

Funny you should say that Marco, as my own limited experience with Behringer amps suggests they benefit hugely from a decent mains cable. Jack them up on some isolation and they sound a different animal altogether, as we found out with Jerry's amp when we put some of "Chezi's balls" under his Behringer amp at one of my bakeoffs - amazing difference in sound quality, texture and resolution.

If you are wondering what "Chezi's balls" are, it's a forum member (Snapper knows him well) from Scotland who machined some extra hard ("Harder than a whore's heart" to quote his words) steel billets formed into a shallow dish and a large ball bearing so whatever is placed on a set of them sways around with a sexy rhythmn :eyebrows: Gave Jerry a set to play with but judging by the lack of comments I don't think he uses them.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/kernowman/Hi-Fi/shoogler1.jpg

Marco
07-03-2012, 11:50
Hi Frank,

Lol - I know Chezi, and his balls :eyebrows:

I totally agree with the point you're making, regarding setting up equipment properly, but that's the problem, as so many people seem to consider this as unnecessary :rolleyes:

TBH, it wouldn't really have mattered what kit was being demonstrated, the way it had all been chucked together, with boxes just plonked on top of each other, etc, and seemingly no care taken whatsoever. Therefore, the system was never liable to sound any good (as in what I'd consider as 'good'). However, Serge's system was far from being the worst I'd heard.

I can quite believe that the same kit, properly supported on decent equipment racks, connected together with quality cables, would sound entirely different... Hey, even the AoS cheap as chips system featured proper equipment racks and some decent cables!

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the two systems Alex and Mike demonstrated sounded so good? ;)

Anyway, I don't want to pick on Serge, as he's a nice enough chap, but his approach to audio has always been the polar opposite of mine, so in that respect we'll never agree about what is considered as being a good sound.

Marco.

Audioflyer
07-03-2012, 12:20
I'm not very good with faces and names so I hope some of you popped in to syndicate 17 and had a listen to Radio 3 or Classical FM being played through a Leak Troghline tuner.

Sharif.

Beobloke
07-03-2012, 12:51
A load of 'em bundled into my room all at once which was very scary! :D

MartinT
07-03-2012, 14:31
If you are wondering what "Chezi's balls" are, it's a forum member (Snapper knows him well) from Scotland who machined some extra hard ("Harder than a whore's heart" to quote his words) steel billets formed into a shallow dish and a large ball bearing so whatever is placed on a set of them sways around with a sexy rhythmn :eyebrows:

Nice. They're the same principle as the Aurios MIB bearings under my SACD player.

http://www.audiotweaks.com/reviews/aurios12/aurios1202.jpg

MartinT
07-03-2012, 16:39
John & Vic's informal AoS room with triple turntables, digital hi-res streaming, Croft Charisma X preamp and Behringer active crossover/room correction feeding a Tube Distinctions Copper amp for mid/treble duty. Vic's DIY Bastani open baffle speakers. A difficult room for us but we got it sounding reasonable after some work. My regenerator was recording 218V hotel mains at one point :eek:

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000538.jpg

The boys next-door! Robin and Paul with their lovely Tannoys and Vac monoblock valve amps, all fed from a Moon Equinox CD player and Transcendent preamp. They made a gorgeous job of playing Van Morrison when I was there.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000539.jpg

Bagga's room with some KEF Ref 105s sounding rather luscious, fed by a Linn front end and Krell electronics holding the KEFs in a vice-like grip...

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000540.jpg

...notable were their regenerator (they also noticed the very heavily sagging mains voltage in the hotel) and the bendy table!

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000541.jpg

Alex and Mike's Cheap as Chips room with some very large audiences. A real success, that room, and some amazingly good sounds from the RAM speakers too.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000543.jpg

def and cambs12's room with a lovely pair of Kharma speakers fed from a Garrard 401 and Aesthetix amp. This was also making some nice sounds.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000544.jpg

paul55's ATC SCM50ASLs sounded marvellous, run from a laptop with Buffalo DAC. Nice moody lighting, too.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000545.jpg

flatpopely's Linn Kans in a tiny room, fed from a streaming laptop with Audiolab MDac and Naim Nait. I can honestly say I've never heard Kans sound better.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000546.jpg

SergeAuckland's room with active B&W 801Fs running from triple Behringer amps and crossover and Meridian 206. The classical music I heard playing was smooth and very spacious. It made a huge soundstage, as large as the room itself.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000547.jpg

Gromit was making some nice tunes with his Technics deck feeding a Sony amp and unidentified speakers.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000548.jpg

jandl100
07-03-2012, 17:15
Well, I agree (as usual) with Marco - I found the active Behringer-powered / B&W-speakered system too laid back. But I think that's just how Serge (who is a great chap) likes his sound.
His system sounded even more laidback last year with totally snoozeworthy (imo) Meridian actives. I was expecting them to sound zippy and upfront, which had been my previous experience with Meridian speakers, but it was quite the opposite.

Yep, I agree with Marco ... except I've had a soft spot for those Behringer A500 amps for quite a while. They don't sound dozy in themselves, but pretty decently lively and neutral - it's the fancy shenanigans that Serge passed the signal thru this year that made them sound less exciting than I'd have liked, I feel sure.

Well done, Serge, for achieving the sound he likes in what must have been quite a challenging room - ime large rooms can be quite as difficult, in their own ways, as small rooms.

Audioman
07-03-2012, 18:59
Hi Martin,

I guess it's all down to personal taste. To me, it just sounded like typical mediocre solid-state: one dimensional, flat, grainy and non-descript. I generally dislike Behringer amps whenever I hear them.

As you were in that room and ours, the sound produced can't both have been 'sweet and musical', simply because the sound produced by both systems was entirely different! ;)

Marco.

I too have to disagree about the Behringer system. It was certainly not the best sound in the show but surprisingly good. Perhaps my view is based on it exceeding my expectations on seeing the kit being used. Obviously not sweet like a valve system but I have heard a lot worse solid state from the usual suspects beloved by the Flat Earthers.

As for the Bastanis I would agree with the lack of bass in relation to size of drivers used. I did think they exceled in the mid range though. Only heard with Martin's deck. A solid sweet sound though lacking a little air and space against a couple of belt drive based systems I heard on the day. However I suspect the lack of ideal set up and rooms used accounts a lot for the reproduction heard.

Effem
07-03-2012, 21:55
Hi Frank,

Lol - I know Chezi, and his balls :eyebrows:

Marco.

Intimately, may I ask? :D

Ali Tait
07-03-2012, 22:13
Yep, I and a couple of mates picked up on that system. IMHO it was the best sound at the show. You could sit there all day listening to it and never get fatigued. Basically an adaption of a studio set up but the real consideration is, look what 'SergeAukland' achieved with some fairly low cost kit. I acknowledge the speakers were expensive vintage and the Meridian front end are/were expensive, but I was gobsmacked with the smooth ease of sound that came through the Behringer active crossover and amps. The Behringer influence, relatively speaking is a 'cheap as chips' option and it makes me wonder whether I should be doing that thing rather than messing with my beloved valve amps. What do you think?

You should give a Behringer a go Greg, I get very good results with mine at home, especially as I'm now using valves on the B200's. Great sound from the Squeezebox and Nick's dac.

YNWaN
07-03-2012, 22:20
flatpopely's Linn Kans in a tiny room, fed from a streaming laptop with Soundblaster Audigy NX2 and Naim Nait. I can honestly say I've never heard Kans sound better.

Ah, I know that's what I put on Andrew's posters; but at the last minute he was loaned an Audiolab MDac and, much to our surprise, this sounded so obviously better than the Audigy that it was used for the whole day.

Reid Malenfant
07-03-2012, 22:20
<snip> You should give a Behringer a go Greg, I get very good results with mine at home
I agree with Ali, I also use DCX2496 crossovers in my own system & am very happy with them indeed. Not sure I'd want to use Behringer amps though even if the system at Scalford using them sounded rather good ;)

Mine feed a John Curl designed Parasound multi channel amp, which should better the Behringers in anyones book :cool:

Reid Malenfant
07-03-2012, 22:24
Gromit was making some nice tunes with his Technics deck feeding a Sony amp and unidentified speakers.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/WigWam12/P1000548.jpg
I'm pretty sure they were Royd speakers, could be wrong though :eyebrows: Very nice & bloody surprising system, tiny speakers with some guts! :)

MartinT
07-03-2012, 22:34
Ah, I know that's what I put on Andrew's posters; but at the last minute he was loaned an Audiolab MDac and, much to our surprise, this sounded so obviously better than the Audigy that it was used for the whole day.

Thanks - I've edited the photo caption.

flatpopely
07-03-2012, 23:10
Thanks - I've edited the photo caption.

Thanks for the kind words. The old girls really worked in that room!

I had an older couple bring a recording of some Sinatra songs recorded by their friends and it was lovely. So glad they asked me to play it as it brought them enjoyment and THAT is what it's about.

Andrew.

chelsea
07-03-2012, 23:13
Thanks for the kind words. The old girls really worked in that room!

I had an older couple bring a recording of some Sinatra songs recorded by their friends and it was lovely. So glad they asked me to play it as it brought them enjoyment and THAT is what it's about.

Andrew.

Me to.
They seemed so happy to hear it that she clapped at the end.

flatpopely
07-03-2012, 23:35
Me to.
They seemed so happy to hear it that she clapped at the end.

And that is the best feedback I have had :)

Enjoyment is the name of the game.

Marco
07-03-2012, 23:58
Guys,

Regarding Behringer amps, all opinions are of course valid. I would never conclusively condemn all of them, as I simply don't have enough experience so far of listening to them.

However, based on what I heard at Scalford, I can confirm that:

A) I didn't like Serge's system, with Behringer amps at the heart of it.

B) John/Vic's system sounded pish (and I mean PISH) when the Behringer was controlling the mid and top end of the OBs.

Anthony and me were quite shocked at how bad things sounded when we walked into the room on Saturday evening. Honestly, the system sounded little better than a transistor radio, as it was so harsh and thin!

Only when the Behringer was moved to handling bass duties, and the Copper amp took over doing the mid and top end, and when the Croft was brought in as a preamp, did the harshness and lack of body to the sound disappear, and the system begin to reproduce music.

Therefore, whilst I understand that some of you guys are obviously getting different results at home, you can understand that from my limited exposure so far to Behringer amps, why I'm not their biggest fan....

However, I'm willing to be 're-educated' by listening to them again in another system! :cool:

Marco.

Marco
08-03-2012, 00:07
Andrew, I thought that your system worked very well indeed, within the obvious limitations of the speakers. A classic case of synergy at work, so well done, mate! :)

Marco.

flatpopely
08-03-2012, 00:11
Andrew, I thought that your system worked very well indeed, within the obvious limitations of the speakers. A classic case of synergy at work, so well done, mate! :)

Marco.

Thanks :cool:

I thought at times it fell apart but when it was on song, my oh my!

I'm still really chuffed about the lady who clapped, it just confirms what it's all about; music making you feel good.

Marco
08-03-2012, 00:17
Indeed, mate. That's *exactly* what it's all about :)

It also highlights the benefits of taking a small system to demonstrate, which if shown to its strengths, is liable to be more successful than bigger systems that are more complicated to get right.

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
08-03-2012, 00:29
Guys,

Regarding Behringer amps, all opinions are of course valid. I would never conclusively condemn all of them, as I simply don't have enough experience so far of listening to them.

However, based on what I experienced at Scalford, I can confirm that:

A) I didn't like Serge's system, with Behringer amps at the heart of it.

B) John/Vic's system sounded pish (and I mean PISH) when the Behringer was controlling the mid and top end of the OBs.
I wouldn't use a Behringer amp, I'd never consider it, but I'm more than happy with the DCX crossovers. Just so you have an idea that they may not be playing a part in something rather offensive :D

Anthony and me were quite shocked at how bad things sounded when we walked into the room on Saturday evening. Honestly, the system sounded little better than a transistor radio, as it was so harsh and thin!

Only when the Behringer was moved to handling bass duties, and the Copper amp took over doing the mid and top end, and when the Croft was brought in as a preamp, did the harshness and lack of body to the sound disappear, and the system begin to reproduce music.

Therefore, whilst I understand that some of you guys are obviously getting different results at home, you can understand that from my limited exposure so far to Behringer amps, why I'm not their biggest fan....

However, I'm willing to be 're-educated' by listening to them again in another system! :cool:

Marco.
No, I'm in no question that the Behringer amps are rather crap, after all they are cheap as chips class B amps with a small sagging PSU under load... So not good...

Just don't PISH the DCX crossovers until you have heard them in a system that uses them with quality amps ;) I know there is far more to come from these as they are designed to run from stupid audio voltages (10V), where as they need modding to use the full 24 bits with an average hifi system at around 1 - 2V.


So they'll get better :) Which I can only describe as awesome as they are already better than any passive xover!

16 to 24 bit is 256x as accurate...

Marco
08-03-2012, 00:36
Just don't PISH the DCX crossovers until you have heard them in a system that uses them with quality amps ;)

No chance, mate. I'd never diss anything that I haven't heard. Plus, I also trust your ears! ;)

However, at the moment, I can't fathom how anyone could think that Behringer amps deserve a place in a top-notch system, in a role as the main amplifier. I guess though, it depends on what you're used to.

It will certainly take some convincing for me to believe that they belong there in a serious hi-fi system, which is why I was so shocked to read Greg's comments earlier about Serge's system, based on what I've heard being achieved in the past with top-notch DIY valve amps at Owston.... :scratch:

Serge's system at Scalford just wasn't anything like in the same league as that!!

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
08-03-2012, 00:51
However, at the moment, I can't fathom how anyone could think that Behringer amps deserve a place in a top-notch system. I guess it depends on what you're used to.
They'd be a very weak link imho....

Kind of like the old Maplin 150W mosfet amp kit :lol:

While a Hafler might be a good bit better than the Maplin design which was ripped from an early Japanese design they still rely on shed loads of feedback to get a linear response.

Not going to go there again as loadsa feedback = lack of dynamics & a constrained sound :rolleyes:

Boring :mental:

Marco
08-03-2012, 00:58
While a Hafler might be a good bit better than the Maplin design which was ripped from an early Japanese design they still rely on shed loads of feedback to get a linear response.

Not going to go there again as loadsa feedback = lack of dynamics & a constrained sound :rolleyes:


Too right, and that is *precisely* what I heard from Serge's system (certainly in comparison to what I'm used to at home from my own kit). Therefore, how anyone could hold it up as producing the best sound of the show, for me, defies belief....... :scratch:

Greg, you need to clear out yer lugholes, mate! Maybe you were too pished to care? :D

Marco.

RobHolt
08-03-2012, 01:46
The NFB question is always interesting.
All solid state amplifiers use 'shedloads of feedback' and to my mind that's perfectly fine - I'm only interested in what comes out compared to what went in with a load connected, and they should be as close as possible in all but amplitude.

When we get to valve amplifiers it is interesting to compare the ideas of the old masters, Walker, Radford, Leak and Williamson for you find that all of them used as much NFB as they could apply while keeping the circuit stable. The limiting factor for NFB wasn't any desire to avoid it but phase changes within the circuit, which are worse than with SS amplifiers mainly due to output transformers.

Those guys had in mind the ideal specification for a transparent amplifier, and applied as much NFB as the technology of the day would allow to bring them towards their ideal.
This is in stark contrast to many designers today.

Of course NFB attenuates distortion but cannot remove it.
Better to look at feed-forward which actually nulls distortion using an error amplifier, with NFB to mop up any residue. Best of both worlds but the very thought of that probably gives the modern day valve guys heart failure :)

In addition to reducing distortion, NFB also reduces amplifier output impedance and this is where I believe most of the likes and dislikes around the supposed 'sound' of NFB originate.
Altering output impedance alters the frequency response of the loudspeaker being driven, the magnitude governed by the variance away from zero Ohms at the amplifier and also the reactance of the loudspeaker load. Basically, amplifiers with high output impedance (often caused by using less NFB) change the sound of the loudspeaker - just like EQ.

If anyone has ever heard a David Berning amplifier using the different feedback setting you will hear this to great effect. As feedback is reduced, output impedance climbs, and the sound changes. Nothing to do will NFB being inherently 'bad' and everything to do with changing the loudspeaker response. Folk can try this at home with some power resistors inserted into the loudspeaker cable.

Interesting topic though.

Rob

MartinT
08-03-2012, 06:55
Kind of like the old Maplin 150W mosfet amp kit :lol:

While a Hafler might be a good bit better than the Maplin design which was ripped from an early Japanese design they still rely on shed loads of feedback to get a linear response.

Would that be the Hitachi MOSFET application note, Mark? I made a couple of those many years ago (I can't remember where the PCBs came from) and was disappointed at how flat and lifeless it sounded. Way too much NFB and negative thermal limiting, too.

Sadly those early Japanese amps measured perfectly but gave MOSFETs a bad name. No such poor performance from my Chord, though.

MartinT
08-03-2012, 07:01
The NFB question is always interesting.
All solid state amplifiers use 'shedloads of feedback' and to my mind that's perfectly fine - I'm only interested in what comes out compared to what went in with a load connected, and they should be as close as possible in all but amplitude.

The circuits which seem to be the most successful are those that a) don't have much inherent distortion to start with, b) use lots of local feedback to keep the stages clean, c) have high open-loop bandwidth and d) apply a limited amount of overall loop feedback.

NRG
08-03-2012, 08:52
The use of feedback with SS and Pentode / Tetrode valve amps is a necessity, Its not possible to achieve low distortion without it. When you look at the old valve circuits like the Williamson its stability is very questionable as Morgan Jones states 'it trades stability for linearity'...as it uses 4 stages wrapped by a global feedback loop. OPTX only provide one phase shift, each stage adds another along with the coupling caps.

The Mullard 5-20 was designed to showcase the EL34 and needed good 'figures' this came at the expense of linearity, so a very stable amp with low distortion but questionable linearity. This low distortion was achieved by the use of NFB not by careful design of the phase splitter and driver stage, really a mistake as that stage should have been optimised before NFB was applied.

With regard to damping, again, the use of Pentodes or SS necessitates some form of feedback to lower the o/p resistance so theres no real way of avoiding it...whats happened as SS has grown in popularity is that 'speaker manufacturers have 'got lazy' in the respect that they assume a near perfect voltage source and don't pay too much attention to the mechanical damping of the 'speaker so when you attach say valve amp with lowish damping factor is screws the frequency response and excites the Bass resonance of the 'speaker leading to that familiar 'valve bass sound'.

Which in reality can be eliminated by using a 'sympathetic' 'speaker...if anybody has been to an Owston meeting and listened to one of the 211 SET amps on demo coupled to an open baffle 'speaker they will know just how tight and well defined the Bass can be of a valve amp without using any NFB.

NRG
08-03-2012, 08:55
...oh and to add, i thought Serge's system coped well with the large room it was in and the sound levels being played, however, it didn't do anything for me and ultimately I found it not very engaging.

Marco
08-03-2012, 09:08
+1, Neal. It's the lack of engagement/involvement factor which is the key here, and you can't measure for that! ;)

But let's not pick on Serge's system. Despite his views on audio being the polar opposite of most folks here, including me, he's always struck me as a decent chap, which is rather different from some others of a similar 'objectivist mindset'.


The use of feedback with SS and Pentode / Tetrode valve amps is a necessity, Its not possible to achieve low distortion without it. When you look at the old valve circuits like the Williamson its stability is very questionable as Morgan Jones states 'it trades stability for linearity'...as it uses 4 stages wrapped by a global feedback loop. OPTX only provide one phase shift, each stage adds another along with the coupling caps.


Interesting that you should say that, as my Copper amp is based on the Williamson circuit, and the points you've made above are echoed by its designer, Anthony TD.

Based on what I've heard from my amp and others, I'd guess that achieving linearity is ultimately most important. I'll ask Anthony to comment on this and some of what Rob has written above :cool:

Marco.

Marco
08-03-2012, 09:35
Hi Rob,

Nice meeting you again at the show on Sunday :)


All solid state amplifiers use 'shedloads of feedback' and to my mind that's perfectly fine - I'm only interested in what comes out compared to what went in with a load connected, and they should be as close as possible in all but amplitude.


Well, that's fine, but what also appears to be happening, based on what others and I have heard from amps designed that way, is that music reproduced is 'strangled' in the process, which seems to be a by-product of applying "shedloads of feedback", and thus why NO amplifier (and no anything in audio) is truly transparent.

Once an audio signal is passed through a series of electronic components, a 'sonic signature' is imparted on the resultant sound produced by the partnering equipment. Sometimes the effect is positive, in a sonic sense, and other times it is negative.

You cannot get away from that, despite the effect of said 'sonic signature' not currently being measurable on test equipment, along with the usual electrical parameters you mention. It would almost certainly be measurable, however, if we knew exactly WHAT to measure, and HOW to measure it, in order to examine the effect.

The fact is, however, our ears can clearly hear it!!

Almost every SS amplifier I've heard, which has been designed with the principle of applying lots of NFB, sounds 'dead' in comparison to a good valve amp, as the 'life' (natural dynamics) has been sucked out of the sound, thus making reproduced music sound 'flat'; but not 'flat', as in transparent - 'flat', as in lifeless and lacking in dynamic contrast.

I've heard the effect over the years too many times, Rob, with various types of equipment in different systems, for there not to be something in it. Valves are inherently linear devices, and are very different in that respect from transistors, which is why they react differently to feedback being applied.


If anyone has ever heard a David Berning amplifier using the different feedback setting you will hear this to great effect. As feedback is reduced, output impedance climbs, and the sound changes. Nothing to do will NFB being inherently 'bad' and everything to do with changing the loudspeaker response. Folk can try this at home with some power resistors inserted into the loudspeaker cable.


A mate of mine, Ian Walker, had a Berning (OTL) amp for a while. It had one or two positive traits, very much depending on what type of music was being played, but we eventually realised that it sounded nothing like a good valve amp should, largely because it didn't really behave like one. The absence of output transformers did not have an overall positive effect on the sound.

In summary, it was the most insipid and sterile sounding 'valve amp' I'd ever heard.

One must remember that, due to the linear nature of valves, the detrimental sonic effect output transformers have on amplifier circuits does not impact as negatively on the sound as some might think, especially when the transformers used are hand-wound, contain plenty of quality iron, and are built to the most exacting standards, such is the case in the best valve amps.

Therefore, it is a total fallacy to believe that the effect all output transformers have on amplifier circuits is bad. As usual in audio, it's a question of implementation and accepting that there will inevitably be some form of compromise - a principle which applies with ALL audio equipment! ;)

Anyway, when Ian brought his Berning over to my place and compared it to the Copper amp, and the latter pissed all over it in every sonic way imaginable, the Berning was quickly sold and replaced with a copper amp, which incidentally has now been fitted with variable feedback adjustment, so I know what you mean by the effect adjusting this gives.

It's a question of applying as little feedback as possible, in order that the bass remains tight and in control, whilst allowing the amp to 'breathe'. Apply too much feedback, and you strangle the sound, which is precisely what I hear when listening to most solid-state amps, where high levels of feedback have been applied.

Marco.

P.S I'll ask Anthony to comment on some of the more technical points you've raised.

chris@panteg
08-03-2012, 09:38
Anyone on here remember the Audio Innovations series 1000 mono's mk2 ? The mk1 was very good but PQ decided to remove all NFB in the mk2 with interesting results:eyebrows:

kininigin
08-03-2012, 09:59
Now Marco, what about the AoS Bake-Off Show? After mid-Oct, please!

I've never been to a bake off,so this would interest me greatly.I might even be persuaded to take my system,depending on location.Being an 'AoS' bake off though,there would be plenty of crofts and technics i imagine :lol:

Would it likely be before december?

MartinT
08-03-2012, 11:48
Almost every SS amplifier I've heard, which has been designed with the principle of applying lots of NFB, sounds 'dead' in comparison to a good valve amp, as the 'life' (natural dynamics) has been sucked out of the sound, thus making reproduced music sound 'flat'; but not 'flat', as in transparent - 'flat', as in lifeless and lacking in dynamic contrast. I've heard the effect over the years too many times, Rob, with various types of equipment in different systems, for there not to be something in it.

When discussing negative feedback, you need to be clear that it is inexorably tied with the open-loop bandwidth of the circuit. Also, NFB can be local or overall and that has a dramatic effect, too.

I just didn't want the casual reader to think that all solid-state amps sound flat and lifeless. Far from it!

Marco
08-03-2012, 11:50
Indeed, and yours most certainly doesn't, mate. The Pass Labs/Chord combo just 'works', but let's not forget all the other important areas you've attended to in your system, which is why your system sounds the way it does!

However, in my experience, SS amps like yours are more the exception than the rule. I guess though, that what it boils down to is quite simply what you're used to, i.e. one's available reference/benchmark.

It does shock me sometimes what some people consider as being a good sound...

Trust me, what you and I are used to from our systems at home is far from being the norm... That fact was blatantly obvious to Anthony and me at Scalford, as we walked round the rooms, and I'm sure that you felt the same way ;)

Marco.

Marco
08-03-2012, 12:10
Hi Darren,


I've never been to a bake off,so this would interest me greatly.I might even be persuaded to take my system,depending on location.Being an 'AoS' bake off though,there would be plenty of crofts and technics i imagine :lol:

Would it likely be before december?

No chance. It won't be until at least next year. There's lots of planning needed first to get it right, so we'll be taking our time to ensure that things run as smoothly as possible and learning from the mistakes made when other shows have been organised.

It *will* happen, though, so watch this space for news!

Marco.

anthonyTD
08-03-2012, 12:31
The NFB question is always interesting.
All solid state amplifiers use 'shedloads of feedback' and to my mind that's perfectly fine - I'm only interested in what comes out compared to what went in with a load connected, and they should be as close as possible in all but amplitude.

When we get to valve amplifiers it is interesting to compare the ideas of the old masters, Walker, Radford, Leak and Williamson for you find that all of them used as much NFB as they could apply while keeping the circuit stable. The limiting factor for NFB wasn't any desire to avoid it but phase changes within the circuit, which are worse than with SS amplifiers mainly due to output transformers.

Those guys had in mind the ideal specification for a transparent amplifier, and applied as much NFB as the technology of the day would allow to bring them towards their ideal.
This is in stark contrast to many designers today.

Of course NFB attenuates distortion but cannot remove it.
Better to look at feed-forward which actually nulls distortion using an error amplifier, with NFB to mop up any residue. Best of both worlds but the very thought of that probably gives the modern day valve guys heart failure :)

In addition to reducing distortion, NFB also reduces amplifier output impedance and this is where I believe most of the likes and dislikes around the supposed 'sound' of NFB originate.
Altering output impedance alters the frequency response of the loudspeaker being driven, the magnitude governed by the variance away from zero Ohms at the amplifier and also the reactance of the loudspeaker load. Basically, amplifiers with high output impedance (often caused by using less NFB) change the sound of the loudspeaker - just like EQ.

If anyone has ever heard a David Berning amplifier using the different feedback setting you will hear this to great effect. As feedback is reduced, output impedance climbs, and the sound changes. Nothing to do will NFB being inherently 'bad' and everything to do with changing the loudspeaker response. Folk can try this at home with some power resistors inserted into the loudspeaker cable.

Interesting topic though.

Rob

Hi Rob,
As you say, one of the main objectives in those early design days was to use as much NFB, in order to gain as low a distortion factor as possible, whilst still maintaining stability, which with increasing amounts of different stages, becomes more difficult the more feedback you apply. however, I truly believe that there is a compromise to be had in limiting the amount of feedback necessary to maintain a balance of linearity and distortion factor, without sucking the life out of the musical presentation, like a lot of the more modern circuit approach seems to have done.

Yes, having the lowest output impedance you can get using NFB is a worthwhile goal to aim for, as far as controlling unwanted/unmusical speaker movements [back EMF etc] but only if it can first be achieved with correct circuit design, i.e.; NFB used only as the icing on the cake.
Most of the circuits from the early days were designed in a manner that would make them stable and functional in a wide variety of different systems, as the manufacturer knew they had very little control over the end user, in terms of what he/she may partner their equipment with.

Nowadays I would like to think that we have a better understanding and acceptance of synergy, and therefore are able to tune equipment in a way so as to maximize the potential of each piece of equipment [as far as musicality is concerned], in order to really make a system work as a whole.
Anthony,TD...

Paul Hynes
08-03-2012, 13:33
Solid state can be very dynamic and transparent at the same time. I currently use a very simple solid-state power amplifier to drive my line source arrays.

It uses one high power depletion mosfet in source follower mode in the signal path which is DC coupled on a split rail supply with another mosfet configured as a current source in the negative rail. The only components in the signal path of the buffer amplifier are a resistor used as a gate stopper to ensure stable operation and the source follower itself. This is effectively a class A single ended, DC coupled high current buffer with a high input impedance and a relatively low output impedance.

There is no external global feedback loop in this configuration.

In practise this configuration gives low distortion, no crossover distortion, wide bandwidth, and a fast response with no overshoot or ringing. In essence it can track complex waveforms very well with low dynamic distortion.

Over the year since I built my first power amplifier in the 1960’s, I have tried many power amplifier circuit configurations in my systems, both valve and solid state. This source follower power amp is the one that gives me the most insight into the musical performance and the most enjoyment listening to music. It also sounds great with film soundtracks where the dynamic delivery can be quite awe inspiring at times.

Since installing my line arrays I have re-visited a number of amplifier designs that I felt had merit in the past and they have not been good enough to replace the source follower.

I feel that the lack of global feedback loop in this mosfet current buffer has a lot to do with the transparency and dynamic delivery I have in my system now. Global feedback around a number of voltage/current stages usually suffers cumulative phase delay that requires heavy compensation to maintain amplifier stability. This tends to reduce bandwidth and slow the transient response of the amplifier causing all sorts of weird behaviour. Unfortunately this is audible in varying degrees depending on the circuit topology and the feedback arrangements. This is not the whole story, of course, but I am certain it is a major contributor to the variation is sound quality from one amplifier to another.

Reid Malenfant
08-03-2012, 18:39
<snip> The NFB question is always interesting.
All solid state amplifiers use 'shedloads of feedback' and to my mind that's perfectly fine - I'm only interested in what comes out compared to what went in with a load connected, and they should be as close as possible in all but amplitude.
On the contrary, they don't ;) Lots of overall feedback is only needed to correct distortion introduced by a class B or AB output stage. There are quite a number of class A amplifiers out there with low overall feedback & a decent damping factor. With a full class A bias the output stage has a very low output impedance & also very low (compared to class B) open loop distortion.

Therefore there is no need to apply loads of overall NFB to correct what isn't going on in the first place.

I'd much rather listen to that type of amp if I could afford the electricity bill & find a silent air conditioning unit for summer use :lol:

Would that be the Hitachi MOSFET application note, Mark?
If I remember right that would be the one. It really was a simple design though & could have been a whole lot better with a bit of thought :rolleyes:

MartinT
08-03-2012, 18:44
Lots of overall feedback is only needed to correct distortion introduced by a class B or AB output stage

Indeed, and it's virtually impossible for any amount of NFB to correct for crossover distortion in a class B circuit, since there is a point where both push/pull transistors are turned off.

Marco
08-03-2012, 19:21
Therefore there is no need to apply loads of overall NFB to correct what isn't going on in the first place.


Slam > dunk! :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
08-03-2012, 19:31
What about small amounts of bias though? I was under the impression that modern transistors are far more linear, better matched through closer production tolerances these days and local, rather than global, feedback is preferable in any case????? Doing it this way is supposed to all but eliminate crossover artifacts, isn't it?

Reid Malenfant
08-03-2012, 19:46
There are still Beta variations in the transistors & the emitter resistors to take into account, these will both add distortion unfortunately.

Yes some of the newer transistors are more linear, but there is nothing more linear than a full class A bias :) The problem is I reckon that 98%+ of amps that purport to be real class A amps aren't. All you need to do is take a look at the size of the heatsinks in the case of a solid state amp & the output power & it soon becomes apparent that there is a whole lot of bullsh*tting going on :eyebrows:

Well that is unless they like running the transistors & heatsinks at a few hundred degrees Centigrade. Seeing as most transistors can't dissipate a damn thing when there junction temperature is 150 - 175C there is a good bit of stretching of the imagination going on imho :lol:

Marco
08-03-2012, 19:49
Well that is unless they like running the transistors & heatsinks at a few hundred degrees Centigrade. Seeing as most transistors can't dissipate a damn thing when there junction temperature is 150 - 175C there is a good bit of stretching of the imagination going on imho :lol:

Hence why true Class A is best achieved by using high-voltage and inherently linear devices, like toobs! ;)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
08-03-2012, 19:52
Alternatively you just need a good bit of real heatsinking, not some poor mans excuse & bluster :eyebrows:

But yes, tubes do offer certain advantages :cool:

Marco
08-03-2012, 20:23
Indeed, although I have to admit harbouring a secret desire to own a nice big Class A sand amp, as an alternative to my Copper amp. Usher used to do a nice one, which I heard once and impressed me - can't remember the model number....

{Edit: this chap, the R-1.5}:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6444/usher20r1520amp20250x72.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/usher20r1520amp20250x72.jpg/)

2x150w class A/B / 50w class A...

And looking at the Sugden Masterclass amps always gets me a little excited! :eek: :eyebrows:

SPA-4 (50W Class A):


http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/6108/sugden0610080032.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/710/sugden0610080032.jpg/)


Pant-wettingly lurvely!! :stalks: :stalks:

Marco.

MartinT
08-03-2012, 21:03
What about small amounts of bias though?

Well yes - that's called class AB :)

Barry
08-03-2012, 21:15
Indeed, although I have to admit harbouring a secret desire to own a nice big Class A sand amp, as an alternative to my Copper amp. Usher used to do a nice one, which I heard once and impressed me - can't remember the model number....

{Edit: this chap, the R-1.5}:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6444/usher20r1520amp20250x72.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/usher20r1520amp20250x72.jpg/)

2x150w class A/B / 50w class A...

And looking at the Sugden Masterclass amps always gets me a little excited! :eek: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Didn't know Usher made amps, or any electronics for that matter. I take it they are the same Usher as the speaker manufacturer?

Mind you if you want 50w Class A, how about using a pair of Mark Levinson ML-2 amps connected in series per channel.

No need for central heating: that little lot will have an idling dissipation of 400W! You will need some air conditioning during the summer - or listen stark naked!

Regards

MartinT
08-03-2012, 21:19
Yes Barry, the Usher amps are in the same brochure as my speakers. Can't say I've ever seen them, though.

An original Krell KSA-50 is proper class A, will get your room unbearably warm but sounds a lot better than later generations of Krell.

Marco
08-03-2012, 21:21
Didn't know Usher made amps, or any electronics for that matter. I take it they are the same Usher as the speaker manufacturer?


Yus, and they are rather nice... Bet they'd sound fab with Martin's Dancer Be-20s on the end!

Marco.

Barry
08-03-2012, 21:24
Have to admit they do look the business. Are Usher a UK manufacturer?

Reid Malenfant
08-03-2012, 21:26
An original Krell KSA-50 is proper class A, will get your room unbearably warm but sounds a lot better than later generations of Krell.
They are also fan cooled so out of the window, just like the early KSA100 & early KMA monoblocks :)

I'm not a fan of fans :lol: They eventually stop working & add noise while they do. One is slightly problematic, the other is likely to result in a good interpretation of the China Syndrome :eek:

Marco
08-03-2012, 21:31
Yes Barry, the Usher amps are in the same brochure as my speakers. Can't say I've ever seen them, though.


Not only have I seen them, but I've heard them! Trust me, they are fab...


An original Krell KSA-50 is proper class A, will get your room unbearably warm but sounds a lot better than later generations of Krell.

Ah yes, proper Krell, unlike the shite that they make now!

Marco.

Barry
08-03-2012, 21:32
The Levinson ML-2s are true class A and so inefficient the idling dissipation is more like 400W per (monoblock) amp. They are not fan assisted and do run hot - very hot, despite the massive heatsinking, to the point that it affected the reliability of the otherwise excellent John Curl design.

MartinT
08-03-2012, 21:33
Are Usher a UK manufacturer?

Taiwanese.

Marco
08-03-2012, 21:35
Very high-end Taiwanese, though!

Marco.

Barry
08-03-2012, 21:35
Taiwanese.

Hmmm - does that mean Chinese by another name?

MartinT
08-03-2012, 21:37
Hmmm - does that mean Chinese by another name?

I don't think the Taiwanese would agree with you!!

Stratmangler
08-03-2012, 21:38
Hmmm - does that mean Chinese by another name?

Don't let the Taiwanese hear you saying that!
Nor the Chinese for that matter :eyebrows:

Barry
08-03-2012, 21:42
Don't let the Taiwanese hear you saying that!
Nor the Chinese for that matter :eyebrows:

I have nothing against the Republic of China, but I do with the Peoples Republic of China. Several Chinese owned electronics companies are located in Taiwan, so are not really Taiwanese at all.

Marco
08-03-2012, 21:43
Put it this way, the beautiful finish and sound of Martin's Ushers would put much of the Focal range to shame!

Marco.

MartinT
08-03-2012, 21:45
Without getting mired in politics, my speakers were made to order for me and shipped from Taiwan. Four blokes including the MD of the UK importer Hi-Audio turned up at my house with them.

Other than that, I couldn't say who owns Usher.

Jonboy
08-03-2012, 21:47
- or listen stark naked!

Regards

DO you mind i have just eaten :booty:

Barry
08-03-2012, 21:53
DO you mind i have just eaten :booty:

Well, I have never quite got to that stage, but there have been times during hot Summer months, when (behind closed doors!) I have listened to my system only wearing my underpants, or naked clad only in a silk dressing gown.

But then you don't really want to know that do you? :lol:

Marco
08-03-2012, 21:58
Well, I have never quite got to that stage, but there have been times during hot Summer months, when (behind closed doors!) I have listened to my system only wearing my underpants, or naked clad only in a silk dressing gown.


Should I go there? Nah, I think I'll fly past it (very quickly) this time! :uhho:

:door:

Marco.

Barry
08-03-2012, 22:02
Should I go there? Nah, I think I'll fly past it (very quickly) this time! :uhho:

:door:

Marco.

My word Marco, you are easily shocked. Is this 'coy' Marco the new you?

I presume after you have had an evening shower you get fully dressed to listen to some 'choons'? :scratch:

Regards

Lodgesound
08-03-2012, 22:05
I had a great day & it was a wonderful way to end my time with this kind of equipment.......

Tired of it all now - tried living without it all at home a while ago ( I don't really enjoy listening to music anymore having worked in the pro side of broadcast for a bit too long) and found I really did'nt miss any of it. This was a wonderful way to draw a line under it all meeting so many enthusiastic people.

Here's to many more and a greater awareness of great music.

Marco
08-03-2012, 22:07
My word Marco, you are easily shocked. Is this 'coy' Marco the new you?

I presume after you have had an evening shower you get fully dressed to listen to some 'choons'? :scratch:


No, of course not, that's what my spandex monkey suit and stockings are for!

Marco.

Jonboy
08-03-2012, 22:09
, or naked clad only in a silk dressing gown.




:flasher:

Marco
08-03-2012, 22:10
I had a great day & it was a wonderful way to end my time with this kind of equipment.......

Tired of it all now - tried living without it all at home a while ago ( I don't really enjoy listening to music anymore having worked in the pro side of broadcast for a bit too long) and found I really did'nt miss any of it. This was a wonderful way to draw a line under it all meeting so many enthusiastic people.

Here's to many more and a greater awareness of great music.

Sorry that I didn't get a chance to pop in and say hello, Stewart. Sadly I only had time to visit a few rooms on the first floor. There just aren't enough hours in the day to do everything you want, when you're exhibiting some kit...

Perhaps you might consider coming to the AoS show, when it takes place? :)

Marco.

Marco
08-03-2012, 22:12
:flasher:

Bet you have a silk smoking jacket and matching panties, doncha? Come on, big boy, fess up! :lol:

Marco.

Barry
08-03-2012, 22:15
I had a great day & it was a wonderful way to end my time with this kind of equipment.......

Tired of it all now - tried living without it all at home a while ago ( I don't really enjoy listening to music anymore having worked in the pro side of broadcast for a bit too long) and found I really did'nt miss any of it. This was a wonderful way to draw a line under it all meeting so many enthusiastic people.

Here's to many more and a greater awareness of great music.

Hello Stewart,

I guess that is a disadvantage of working in the recording profession - you can never quite 'switch off' and relax when listening to music at home, without unconciously listening critically for flaws. :(

If your recent visit to Scalthorpe has helped to change your mind then that is a job well done.

I hope it has worked and that we will see more posts from you letting us know what music you are relaxing to. :)

Regards

Cotlake
08-03-2012, 22:21
After several previous serious and interesting posts (Barry's above acknowledged), the shallow drift away is a pity. It would be good to get back to the serious discussion on feedback etc. which was most informative. The return to that subject would be best acheived if those who don't know what they are talking about abstained. Sorry, contraversial, but there certainly was some ignorant input. I very much enjoy reading the posts from the knowledgable. Others can easily spoil it. Oh dear, so quickly going to where I was a couple of years ago which caused me to leave! Shame.

Barry
08-03-2012, 22:52
After several previous serious and interesting posts (Barry's above acknowledged), the shallow drift away is a pity. It would be good to get back to the serious discussion on feedback etc. which was most informative. The return to that subject would be best acheived if those who don't know what they are talking about abstained. Sorry, contraversial, but there certainly was some ignorant input. I very much enjoy reading the posts of the knowledgable. Others can easily spoil it. Oh dear, so quickly going to where I was a couple of years ago which caused me to leave! Shame.

Hello Greg,

I'm not sure if your comments regarding thread drift are directed at me (regarding my off-thread confessions of occasional nocternal listening attire), but AoS is notorious for thread drift. Fortunately it never gets out of hand.

So to return to the pros and cons of negative feedback, I don't really have much to add that has not been said already.

Some feedback is necessary, if not essential and a distinction has to be made between local feedback, which is relatively benign when it come to phase shift, and global feedback which can and often does have a major impact on the overall stability of the amplifier (especially at the frequency extremes). The more linear the device, the less feedback required, but you can never avoid introducing some feedback - the mere insertion of a resistor alone into the cathode or emmiter circuit will effect current feedback.

As other have rightly stated, one should aim for the circuit to be as linear as possible without feedback. Then only introduce a little global feed back (no more than say 20dB) to reduce the non-linearities to an acceptable level. There is certainly no need to use massive amounts of global feedback as was used in the early days of SS amps; it is no panacea.

Too much feedback will, depending on the phase length (or phase delay) of the circuit, affect the transient response of the amp and also, I would have thought, the slew rate. Whatever, it will make the sound 'flat' or 'sat on', with little sense of dynamics or 'life'.

So a little local feedback is good, even necessary, large amounts of global feedback unecessary and detrimental.

Regards

Ali Tait
08-03-2012, 23:14
The First Watt F2 is an example of a SS amp that doesn't use any feedback. It is unusual in being a current source amp though.

Barry
08-03-2012, 23:25
The First Watt F2 is an example of a SS amp that doesn't use any feedback. It is unusual in being a current source amp though.

I'd like to see the circuit diagram of the F2. As I said the mere introduction of a resistor into the emitter introduces current feedback.

Ali Tait
09-03-2012, 00:07
Some info here Barry-

http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/prod_f2_man.pdf

NRG
09-03-2012, 07:54
Very high distortion figures Ali, it would definitely sound different ....

Ali Tait
09-03-2012, 08:36
Haven't we heard one in the past? Can't remember.

SPS
09-03-2012, 11:47
I've had the pleasure of a couple of Ed swifts nelson pass designed amps on my system, the F1 and F4 if i remember correctly. They are very good amps. they did have evidence of a rough sound to them, it would not be obvoius to some, but comparing them to my px4 amps there was a little missing, a lack of air and finer detail, and that slight roughness. Ed still uses valve amps in the main.

i have quite a few modern and vintage ss amps, one of the best one i had was a simple mullard module kit from the 60's, just 4 watts, the amps sounded very good on my system,

many of the solid state amps tend to be a little grey sounding to me, but not all, there where a few brighter sounding ones at scalford, but they all tended to have some level of the finer details missing, most of the owners still where very happy with them, i must add they all made good music.

I dont think feed back is a killer, getting a balance of it is important,
but on the other hand its virtually a must with many amps. so there little choice when one is locked in to a type of reproduction system


my personal view is that surely one of the main aims of a good system is resolutution, global feedback is adding an out of phase signal from the amplified signal back into the amplifier input, and adding that to the original signal must/does change what is being amplified., so there is a cost in my mind.
Add to that the back emf going into the feedback loop from the speakers, it then starts to look like the original signal has the finer points missing, they sound to me like they've been cancelled out along with the distortion.

the amp may look fine on your scope with test tones.. but the overall sound does not always work for my ears. so i stick with what i know works best for me, very little feedback and no overall feedback at all in the main amp.

Marco
09-03-2012, 12:00
Hi Steve,

Nice post; I agree with the bits of it I can understand! Nice meeting you again at the show, btw :)


the amp may look fine on your scope with test tones.. but the overall sound does not always work for my ears. so i stick with what i know works best for me, very little feedback and no overall feedback at all in the main amp.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there! ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
09-03-2012, 12:52
Hi All,
Another point I would like to make is the difference in the reasoning behind why feedback needs to be used, In solid state, the open loop gain of a small signal bipolar device compared to valves is huge [typically in the thousands] i.e.; they have loads of signal gain that cannot be used in most circuits, [ op amps included ] also, the gain is not linear, so to reduce the gain to a useable level feedback is used, also by applying feedback the amount used will help linearize the devices frequency response.
Valves on the other hand have relatively low gain, e.g., take a commonly used high gain type ECC83, which has a maximum useable gain of 100. On this merit it would seem then that the bipolar device has an ace up its sleeve as less devices are needed to attain relatively high amounts of gain to start with, bear in mind though it is a bit of a juggling act to arrive at a gain and linearity that is acceptable with just the right amount of feedback.
valves on the whole are very linear devices but as can be seen compared to Transistors the gain is relatively low, therefore they do not necessarily need feedback around them to lower the gain or increase their linearity to begin with, There are occasions where the lower gain is an issue, and more devices’ or the way the devices are configured need to be addressed, but thankfully the days of needing extreme levels of gain from valves are long gone and it is mainly phono-stages that pose the biggest issues as far as gain from valves is concerned these days.
Neither topology is perfect, both have merits and pitfalls, however, the feedback issue or the need for feedback in one over the other should be seriously taken into account when considering the implications.
Anthony, TD...