View Full Version : Moving Coil high or low?
trio leo
24-02-2012, 14:44
Are there advantages/disadvantages in high or low output MC cartridges?
The high output Dynavector 10X5 through my Spectral pre-amp has been wonderful so far.
I'm currently using a low output Ortofon MC 30 Super, which I previously thought was a bit bland until I put it through the Albarry MCA 11 phono stage, now it's a fantastic cartridge.
So is it better to use a high output into the MM stage of a pre-amp or a low output through a phono stage? ( I don't know the technical difference between a step up transformer, head-amp or phono stage).
I fancy a Micro Benz Glider or a DV 20X or maybe a Shelter, a lot is said about all 3.
regards Al
alex_san78
24-02-2012, 15:42
Are there advantages/disadvantages in high or low output MC cartridges?
The high output Dynavector 10X5 through my Spectral pre-amp has been wonderful so far.
I'm currently using a low output Ortofon MC 30 Super, which I previously thought was a bit bland until I put it through the Albarry MCA 11 phono stage, now it's a fantastic cartridge.
So is it better to use a high output into the MM stage of a pre-amp or a low output through a phono stage? ( I don't know the technical difference between a step up transformer, head-amp or phono stage).
I fancy a Micro Benz Glider or a DV 20X or maybe a Shelter, a lot is said about all 3.
regards Al
I believe you've chosen the wrong folder for the topic.
Please move it here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4
The benefit of a low output MC is that the moving parts - the coils - have fewer windings and therefore a lower moving mass so they can respond better to the dynamics of the groove. The downside is, of course, the very tiny output from them.
I love MCs of all types, but with my deck's resolving power my cartridge of choice now is a low output MC through a step-up transformer.
Ammonite Audio
24-02-2012, 17:52
Low output moving coils can sound wonderful through a good step up transformer, into a MM phono amp; however as you have found out, high output MCs can sound great too! So, as ever in this hobby, YMMV.
I used to have a Benz Glider SL until I snapped its cantilever off with my sleeve. Leaving aside its vulnerable design, this is a lovely cartridge that worked really well with my Bob's Devices SUT. On one memorable occasion, it was played through an Audio Note S9 SUT, which should not have worked, but the results were stunning (I should add that the S9 retails at £13k). Against most electronic design logic, SUTs seem to be able to get the very best out of low output MCs, compared with active MC head amps, but a good SUT is certainly not cheap. At least high output MCs avoid that cost.
If I were you, however, I'd stick with what works well, but maybe consider a high output Benz (the Glider and Wood are available as High Output, but the cheaper Ace is said to be very good). I did recently buy a Dynavector DV-20 X2 as a replacement for the broken Glider, but it is not in the same league as the Benz - very low surface noise and secure tracking, but a bit dull. I've just taken delivery of a Benz Wood SL, which should be good.
hifi_dave
24-02-2012, 18:02
On the very few occasions when I have had a high and a low o/p version of the same cartridge, I have always preferred the low output. They have sounded cleaner, airier and with greater prescence. I believe this due to the lower moving mass of the low o/p coils.
On the very few occasions when I have had a high and a low o/p version of the same cartridge, I have always preferred the low output. They have sounded cleaner, airier and with greater prescence. I believe this due to the lower moving mass of the low o/p coils.
Agreed - but the lower the output the more expensive the ancillaries. Just yesterday I listened to a Phase Tech P3, their lowest offering at around 1000 euros; At 0.24 mv, my pretty decent AA Aria VB phono had trouble driving it, so did a couple of phono pre-amps at double the price. And for some reason, no love lost between it and my heavily moded RB-300. It absolutely sang with a Triplanar tonearm, Nordost Frey tonearm cable and a 6000 euro phono pre-amp, but somehow, I think that widely defeated the point. Plenty of great cartridges around the 0.4-0.5 output mark that combine the best of both worlds.
As per cartridge recommendation: Shelter (501 mk II) - one of the true bargains of the century.
sq225917
25-02-2012, 08:54
I run a Benz LP at 0.2mv, it sounds very good into my modded Naim Prefix.
hifi_dave
25-02-2012, 09:52
Agreed - but the lower the output the more expensive the ancillaries. Just yesterday I listened to a Phase Tech P3, their lowest offering at around 1000 euros; At 0.24 mv, my pretty decent AA Aria VB phono had trouble driving it, so did a couple of phono pre-amps at double the price. And for some reason, no love lost between it and my heavily moded RB-300. It absolutely sang with a Triplanar tonearm, Nordost Frey tonearm cable and a 6000 euro phono pre-amp, but somehow, I think that widely defeated the point. Plenty of great cartridges around the 0.4-0.5 output mark that combine the best of both worlds.
As per cartridge recommendation: Shelter (501 mk II) - one of the true bargains of the century.
I can think of several phono stages which can work perfectly well with a 0.24 mV cartridge and at far less that cost.
Also, a MC with 04 - 0.5 mV output is still low output. High output MC's are more like 3-5 mV and it's these we are discussing.
I can think of several phono stages which can work perfectly well with a 0.24 mV cartridge and at far less that cost.
Also, a MC with 04 - 0.5 mV output is still low output. High output MC's are more like 3-5 mV and it's these we are discussing.
I am sure there are several ones out there, but still at a cost that exceeds that of the cartridge.
Quite a few manufacturers designate cartridges of 2.5mV or less as high output models - those between 1.0-0.5 mV as medium - so I guess it is a matter of individual perspective.
The original post/question pertained to recommendations between a Benz Glider (high output: 2.5mV) and a Shelter. With the exception of the 201 (MM), no Shelter MC has a output of more than 0.5 mV; so the 3-5mV range seems to be out of the equation.
Look at Bob's Devices step-up transformers. The CineMags are superb and the 30dB setting should match even carts with 0.2mV output. They are excellent with a Shelter and are good value. Bob is a nice chap to deal with, too.
EDIT: he does a 40x (32dB) model, too, for very low output cartridges.
http://www.bobsdevices.com/
Why a SUT? Because you don't need to throw away your MM phono amp/preamp and because, in my view, transformers sound much better than using an active MC stage.
Audioman
25-02-2012, 14:26
I can think of several phono stages which can work perfectly well with a 0.24 mV cartridge and at far less that cost.
Also, a MC with 04 - 0.5 mV output is still low output. High output MC's are more like 3-5 mV and it's these we are discussing.
I can't see what expense has to do with compatibility to very low output MC. The Rega Phono MC is capable of dealing with 0.2mV and is relatively inexpensive. There are well reviewed expensive phono stages with inadequate gain though. It's all down to good design and avoiding penny pinching on the grounds of simplicity = better sound. I would sooner have a phono that coped with variable outputs and ability to change cartridges without added expense than the elusive nth degree of SQ.
RobbieGong
25-02-2012, 15:33
I've never owned an mc but one day I hope to. From much of what I've read the low output mc is regarded as the cartridge to be had in terms of pursuit or reaching the very highest levels of 'audiophile' music replay. I've also read loads about the importance of a good phono stage to that regard and dont doubt it's importance for a minute especially where low out put mc's are concerned. Now my question is having always owned only integrated amps, is it the case that the phono stages here are not so good ? I ask the question because there were many many high end integrated amps produced throughout the 70's 80's and early 90's with selector switch facility for both mm and mc. My flagship Technics SU VX800 (professional oxygen free copper transformers and twin X pro capacitors) for example. Surely the mc phono stage on some of these would be pretty decent and up for the job ? Is anyone using an mc through an integrated amp phono stage with good results ?
hifi_dave
25-02-2012, 17:24
I can't see what expense has to do with compatibility to very low output MC. The Rega Phono MC is capable of dealing with 0.2mV and is relatively inexpensive. There are well reviewed expensive phono stages with inadequate gain though. It's all down to good design and avoiding penny pinching on the grounds of simplicity = better sound. I would sooner have a phono that coped with variable outputs and ability to change cartridges without added expense than the elusive nth degree of SQ.
I don't see how expense has anything to do with compatability. I was responding to post no.7 where 6000 Euros was mentioned as the price for a MC phono stage.
I know of less than £100 MC phono stages which work perfectly well with low o/p MC's.
I don't see how expense has anything to do with compatability. I was responding to post no.7 where 6000 Euros was mentioned as the price for a MC phono stage.
I know of less than £100 MC phono stages which work perfectly well with low o/p MC's.
Dave, don't get me wrong, I couldn't agree with you more; I just mentioned one example, which I just happened to listen to yesterday; with a 6000 euro phono pre-amp, which I include in the "Are you kidding me"? genre of audio equipment, ANY cartridge is bound to sound great. All I'm saying is that many low output cartridges do need a good phono pre, tonearm cable etc to sound at their best, which adds to the tally. I am perfectly happy with my Audio Analogue Aria, it is user configurable to match your cartridge and does exactly what it says on the tin. It costs 750 euros, which is a decent price; but, it will still not drive anything below 0.20 - 0.15mV.
Audioman
25-02-2012, 18:26
I don't see how expense has anything to do with compatability. I was responding to post no.7 where 6000 Euros was mentioned as the price for a MC phono stage.
I know of less than £100 MC phono stages which work perfectly well with low o/p MC's.
Yes I am agreeing with you Dave.:doh: Expensive is not better if it is incompatible. The previous poster is wrong in assuming you need to spend loads to run a low low output MC. In fact until the 90's most MCs had 0.1 to 0.3 output rather than the more common 0.4/0.5mV output today. I think it is a poor value design that is incapable of producing enough output with the lower values and this sort of compatibility should not impact greatly on cost.
Dave, don't get me wrong, I couldn't agree with you more; I just mentioned one example, which I just happened to listen to yesterday; with a 6000 euro phono pre-amp, which I include in the "Are you kidding me"? genre of audio equipment, ANY cartridge is bound to sound great. All I'm saying is that many low output cartridges do need a good phono pre, tonearm cable etc to sound at their best, which adds to the tally. I am perfectly happy with my Audio Analogue Aria, it is user configurable to match your cartridge and does exactly what it says on the tin. It costs 750 euros, which is a decent price; but, it will still not drive anything below 0.20 - 0.15mV.
Since there are few cartridges that are below 0.2 this is an acceptable lower limit but there should be still enough drive. Also don't forget that the sensitivity of your amps inputs or output/input between pre and power amps has an effect on the overall gain.
High or low output MC? Low every time, for me.
Yes I am agreeing with you Dave.:doh: Expensive is not better if it is incompatible. The previous poster is wrong in assuming you need to spend loads to run a low low output MC. In fact until the 90's most MCs had 0.1 to 0.3 output rather than the more common 0.4/0.5mV output today. I think it is a poor value design that is incapable of producing enough output with the lower values and this sort of compatibility should not impact greatly on cost.
OK, I give up; all I said is that a good low output cartridge needs equally good ancillaries to sound at its best. That's it. Especially as you go up the price ladder. Compatibility wise, if a "low-mid priced" phono pre is then capable of driving the Colibris', the Te Kaitoras' the Phasetechs' and the Transfigurations' of this world and letting them shine through then it is a very fine product indeed.
Some of you are missing the point: the ability to run with a low output MC cartridge is not any quality measure of a phono stage. Some great phono amps can only take a high output MM cartridge. This doesn't matter since you can use a step-up transformer to derive the match you need, and gain better sound quality in the process (in my opinion).
It's a related point, and I think the majority have answered that a low output MC sounds best.
Just get a London Decca and forget all this moving coil nonsense :lol:
It was only a matter of time before Dave came in with that :lol:
Indeed... All we need is a nice Decca and a pair of Juras, and it's job done! :eyebrows:
Marco.
trio leo
26-02-2012, 17:28
Thanks fellas,
I agree, the consensus seems to be low output is better and as I now have the Albarry MCA 11 it makes sense to buy low output cartridges, and the Micro Benz glider is highly regarded by many here, maybe now I should get my damaged Orton SPU rebuilt.
It's nice to be on a forum where one can express an opinion or share an audio experience without being accused of heresy or stupidity.
regards Al
PS could you tell me what to do to get that equipment list that comes up as My system ?
The Grand Wazoo
26-02-2012, 18:39
PS could you tell me what to do to get that equipment list that comes up as My system ?
Nah, to fully qualify as a stupid heretic you need to know how to do this!
Go to your profile page (http://theartofsound.net/forum/member.php?u=3941) and look on the panel on the left hand side. There, you'll see a section called 'Settings and Options'. Select 'Edit Signature' and type away in the box provided.
Wakefield Turntables
27-02-2012, 18:34
I prefer low output MC's they seem have more affinity in my system.
chris@panteg
27-02-2012, 18:46
I prefer low output MC's they seem have more affinity in my system.
Could you elaborate a bit more though ?
Do mc's sound sweeter or more spacious , more refined or is it detail ?
Patrick Dixon
27-02-2012, 19:29
The trouble is that the 'consensus' is always wrong - if 'safe'. The 'right' answer has been posted on the thread - it's not quite what you asked for.
Decca.
My experience with HO MC's is really not all that great, beginning with a Benz Micro Silver. It did, however, lead me into more refined vinyl playback. Not that the cart itself is bad or so, but it was already used and quite worn.
A friend does have a Benz Micro Ace SH on his VPI Classic MkII, and that doesn't sound bad at all, when fed into a McIntosh Pre/Power combo. It lacks a little refinement and punch though, when comparing to my own Ace SL.
The problem, imho, is that you can never compare a HO MC to its LO equivalent without involving step up or other high gain RIAA. And i do believe the phono stage makes a lot bigger difference than the carts when comparing identical otherwise than the output.
Br Micke :)
The trouble is that the 'consensus' is always wrong - if 'safe'. The 'right' answer has been posted on the thread - it's not quite what you asked for.
Decca.
Lol, Patrick - aye!
The 'right' answer is that everything in audio is a compromise, including cartridges.
Deccas are great, for those who value their particular sonic strengths (count me in), but like any other cartridge, they are no universal panacea.
Marco.
Do mc's sound sweeter or more spacious , more refined or is it detail ?
That gets to the heart of it, Chris: for me, low output MC strengths are not sweetness but detail within a pronounced wide and deep soundstage, superb midrange presentation and dynamic impact.
chris@panteg
27-02-2012, 22:39
That gets to the heart of it, Chris: for me, low output MC strengths are not sweetness but detail within a pronounced wide and deep soundstage, superb midrange presentation and dynamic impact.
Thanks Martin :)
The Troika was the only genuine MC i ever used , (been gone 13 years) until now that is :) Thinking of mounting the AT33EV tomorrow , feeling a bit nervous .
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