View Full Version : Van Den Hul VDH interconnects The First Ultimate mk1 versus mk2?
RoboCopper
22-02-2012, 15:12
Hi,
I am dwelling to buy one of those two but I am not sure about the difference between those two interconnects?
Van Den Hul VDH interconnects The First Ultimate mk1 versus mk2?
Anybody had any experience with them? Listening, owning? How do they compare.
The brand ain't known generically as "bland-n-dull" for nothing you know..... :lol:
Hi Roberto,
Trust me on this, as I speak from personal experience, forget all about VDH interconnects and buy some Mark Grant G2000HDs instead:
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43_1&products_id=217
If you can stretch to the ones with silver WBTs, then even better. You will never need to buy other cables. The G2000HDs will, quite frankly, sonically embarrass any VDH interconnects, and Mark is a top bloke to deal with, too! :)
Marco.
So much depends on your system and taste. Mark's cables are brill, that's for sure. In my system I can "play tunes" hoho....by mixing source-to-preamp and preamp-to-power amp interconnects. I don't like have both sets the same. Generally I like the more resolving cable after the source and a more "controlled" cable after the preamp. There's no reason not to have a 1st Ultimate mixed with a silver plug G2000HD. I have some First Ultimate mk 1 I use sometimes, I don't understand their reputation for being dull. They have more "sparkle" (if you want it) than the very good MGs.
I'd better clear this up before Marco questions it :)
The derogatory term I posted above is mainly attributed to their interconnect range, although I found the very popular D102 to be ok in this respect, along with the cheaper "Second" interconnect for some reason. All the "First" samples I've heard just sit on dynamics - cymbals become monotonic and any expression in the playing just disappears (I've heard the jazz drummer Alan Ganley almost play tunes on a couple of cymbals with his brushes, so deft and sensitive was his playing and much of this should come over on his recordings with Carol Kidd at least).
The ONLY VDH speaker cable I had any time for was the "Wind" which Marco uses. An excellent wire, either due to the heavy gauge, or perhaps the carbon-fetish VDH have ;) It's a great speaker wire though...
Hi Clive,
I don't like have both sets the same. Generally I like the more resolving cable after the source and a more "controlled" cable after the preamp.
Interesting... Whatever works for you, works, I guess! :)
I've never obtained as good results by using analogue interconnects from two different manufacturers in the same system, as I have from them being both the same.
The systems I've tried mixing and matching cables in have always sounded rather 'disjointed', perhaps due to sub-optimal synergy between the cables, as a result of them having different sonic signatures?
Personally, I'd rather run the same cable loom from my source to preamp, and preamp to power amp, in order to preserve the same 'constant'. Better musical results, in my experience, are more often than not obtained that way.
Running different speaker cables can be beneficial, as there you're taking into account how the partnering speakers behave in conjunction with them, both electrically and sonically. However, as always with these things, it pays to suck it and see! :cool:
Marco.
The dynamics thing with carbon interconnects is something I should have mentioned. It's very dependent on the equipment in use. The First Ultimate I have here measure 37R for the hot connection and 6R for the ground connection. Possibly a high impedance output from a valve circuit, maybe 200R or 1,500R so the added resistance of the cable won't matter. For a solidstate circuit with an impedance of less than 1R then maybe the dynamics would be killed.
I use a VDH the First to connect phono stage to preamp and I've never noticed a lack of dynamics (I've used the same cable in different parts of the system, with similar results). I expect those of you getting poor results are playing the wrong sort of music.
I've never obtained as good results by using analogue interconnects from two different manufacturers in the same system, as I have from them being both the same.
The systems I've tried mixing and matching cables in have always sounded rather 'disjointed', perhaps due to sub-optimal synergy between the cables, as a result of them having different sonic signatures?
There's certainly a very strong argument in favour of a structure cable loom approach. All cables to greater or lesser degree have a sound - having 2 sets of the SAME cable increase the effect. Of course a good cable should have no sound but.....I've yet to meet that cable. For sure MGs get close.
I use a VDH the First to connect phono stage to preamp and I've never noticed a lack of dynamics (I've used the same cable in different parts of the system, with similar results). I expect those of you getting poor results are playing the wrong sort of music.
Even having said what I said about solidstate, I have some First Ultimate connected to a DAC currently, it's certainly not struggling with the cable.
There's certainly a very strong argument in favour of a structure cable loom approach. All cables to greater or lesser degree have a sound - having 2 sets of the SAME cable increase the effect.
Indeed, and when that effect ideally suits the partnering system (incidentally, the "effect" I hear with G2000HDs is less of a 'sound' than with any other stereo interconnects I've tried), you simply can't get enough of it. The last thing you want to do is dillute that "effect" by introducing an 'alien' cable from another manufacturer! ;)
Personally, I'd rather keep the source and control components cable loom the same, maintaining a known constant, than attempting to create a 'beneficial sonic effect' by marrying the sonic signatures of interconnects from two different manufacturers, which is potentially rather more difficult...
However, there are no absolutes here, so experimenting is always the key to musical satisfaction!
Interesting point about VDH carbons in valve amps and in SS ones - noted :cool:
Marco.
RoboCopper
22-02-2012, 17:20
Thanks for all the inputs, I will certainly look into those Mark Grant G2000HD Precision audio cable - WBT Cu - Stereo Pair.
But at the moment I have an opportunity to buy either VDH 1st Ultimate mk1 OR mk2 for about 70£ which I consider it a good price.
I already heard mk2 in my system and it suits me well as it gives me some bass which I need. It definitely sounds better in my system than Nordost Red Dawn IC (I repeat in my system).
But the mk1 offered is newer with packaging and I wonder about difference between mk1 and mk2?
Thanks for all the inputs, I will certainly look into those Mark Grant G2000HD Precision audio cable - WBT Cu - Stereo Pair.
But at the moment I have an opportunity to buy either VDH 1st Ultimate mk1 OR mk2 for about 70£ which I consider it a good price.
I already heard mk2 in my system and it suits me well as it gives me some bass which I need. It definitely sounds better in my system than Nordost Red Dawn IC (I repeat in my system).
But the mk1 offered is newer with packaging and I wonder about difference between mk1 and mk2?
Interesting....I can't comment on mk1 vs mk2 but due to this discussion I have just swapped a few cables (I have quite a number). Red Dawn was one. It did sound more dynamic than the VDH but that's because it has little bass. Any full range cable will sound less dynamic than a rolled-off in the bass Red Dawn.
I put the G2000D Cu in too. The VDH are somehow smoother but more extended in the treble, quite a similar balance overall.
I ran a set of VDH Firsts a few years ago and they hummed like hell. As I understand it, VDH released the Second which overcame this particular trait, which they did very well.
My perception of them was that I found the extreme top end very lucid and articulate but further down the treble range they dropped off significantly, while the bass was restrained and lacked timing
hifinutt
22-02-2012, 22:02
`bland n dull` !! no chance . i have the vdh first ultimate dac to pre, very detailed, brilliant bass and very dynamic indeed. it replaced my valhalla which was good but cost a lot more
10/10 for the first ultimate
RoboCopper
22-02-2012, 22:06
So you prefer VDH 1st?
Is it mk1 or mk2?
What's coming out of this discussion quite clearly is that VDH carbon interconnects have a very definite 'sound', and one which obviously works well in certain systems.
I prefer cables which make their presence less 'obvious', and thus impose their sonic signature on music to a lesser degree, such as is the case with Mark Grant G2000HDs.
However, Roberto, good luck with what you choose. You've obviously had good results before with VDH interconnects in your system, so there's no reason why it won't be the same again this time - enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
However, Roberto, good luck with what you choose. You've obviously had good results before with VDH interconnects in your system, so there's no reason why it won't be the same again this time - enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Well said sir :cool:
So you prefer VDH 1st?
Is it mk1 or mk2?
I see the VDH site says this:
The FIRST ® Ultimate is currently sold in its mark 2 version (Mk II as printed on the cable). There is absolutely no difference in sound quality or electrical or mechanical properties between the original and the newer Mk II version. The latter merely has a thin foil added directly underneath the cable jacket, which facilitates our connector mounting process.
RoboCopper
23-02-2012, 10:43
I found in this forum thread about comparison where is stated about sound difference:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/165804/head-fiers-with-experience-with-van-den-hul-interconnects
Quote:
" Glod
offline
1,358 Posts. Joined 3/2005
Location: The Netherlands
I have used the Van den Hul IC’s for about 10 years and I am very happy with them.
I have used the The Bay C5 HYBRID, D-102 mk III, First Ultimate mk I and the mk II. My favourite is clearly the First Ultimate mk I. As you probably know the interesting thing with this cable is that it has pure all carbon conductors and traditional metal RCA’s.
The most prominent impression of the First Ultimate mk I is a very effortless, airy and spatial presentation. The frequency response is seemingly flat as a pool table and one cannot really point out any obvious dips or peaks IMO. The cable is very true to the source; you know: garbage in garbage out, and it will not inject life in inferior sources, nor add more (or less) bass or tame digital artefacts: Everything the source produces will be let through, unaltered. You have been warned. Good news is that if you have a good source, this cable will do it right. I find this cable a very natural sounding cable. Really great for voices and acoustic music.
Note that I have been talking about the mk I of the First Ultimate, which AFAIK is not in production any longer. Van den Hul says there should not be a difference between the two, but they differ slightly in diameter, and IMO, they do not have the same sound either. The new mk II doesn’t have the tremendous bass extension (nt the same as emphasised) of the original. The midrange is also more "polished" to a shine. The mk I could show some fine grain in the sound, but not disturbingly much so IMO, rather the opposite: It renders nice texture to voices. With the mk II the grain is definitely gone. Voices get very clear and crystal like. I like the mk I better.
To summarize it
Van den Hul First Ultimate mk I
+
Very effortless and airy presentation
Expansive soundstage
Perceivably flat frequency response
-
Not an up-front sound, rather slightly distant
A bit dark sound as opposed to lively and with emphasised mid range.
The D-102 mk III is similar to the First Ultimate mk I in general, but with one important difference. If the First Ultimate was a bit distant sounding; the D-102 mk III is absolutely more forward. It has the same flat frequency response, terrific bass extension, but the whole presentation is moved more closely towards you. The treble and leading edges of instruments are also much more defined making e.g. “s” sound sharper than with the First Ultimate. I use this cable in my modest home cinema set-up and I like it there very much.
The Bay C5 HYBRID is a bargain and basically IMO the budget version of the First Ultimate mk I sonically, though construction wise it resembles the D-102 mk III more I think. The Bay is a scaled down version of the First Ultimate sonically. It has virtually the same character but sound smallish in comparison with less dynamic head-room. Mind you, it is quite sufficient.
Mainstream HYBRID power cord.
I have not tried other after market power cords, so I don’t have anything to compare with. Anyway, when I connected one to the HeadAmp GS-1, which I use for a RME card in my PC set-up, the sound gained a very obvious better bass extension, more vibrant tones, velvetry reproduction, and better microdynamics
The soundstage expanded with more ambient cue’s and better decay of tones and the overall sound got better definition. Interestingly, I connected another Mainstream to the PC, and behold, the sound improved even more but to a lesser extent. I am honestly still in shock of this latter unexpected effect. I probably have very dirty mains. I bought these cables second hand and I consider them a bargain and really a good and fruitful upgrade.
A word of warning about eBay items: Home terminated carbon fibre cables of van den Hul are said to not necessarily hold the same sonic standard. It might be tricky to terminate carbon fibre correctly. I think they are crimped usually.
On a side note. Goredwings mentioned the Nordost sound. IMHO, at least the Red Dawn mk I does not have the effortless bass extension of the First Ultimate mk I. However, it does have a better instrument positioning. It is also a more forward and much faster cable.
EDIT: The negative points about the First Ultimate mk I listed are of course subjective, nevertheless, representative for what people are thinking about them in general. If you value those traits (like me) they are of course not negeative points.
"
Interesting, Roberto. Thanks for sharing :)
For me, however, this comment sums up in a nutshell what I've heard from The First Ultimate whenever I've used it in systems:
Not an up-front sound, rather slightly distant
A bit dark sound as opposed to lively and with emphasised mid range
And because of that, it's why I don't use it.
Marco.
Interesting write up. I agree overall with the mk1 views. I run with Open Baffles and the spatial aspects of the cable certainly come to the fore and the effortless delivery is also present. Bass too is very powerful.
I wouldn't focus too much on the "dark" aspect, the only cable in my armory that's noticably brighter / more forward is Red Dawn. I have something like 10 sets of i/cs to choose from.
RoboCopper
23-02-2012, 11:05
10 sets of IC, very wise.
At present I have none of IC with real value, most of them are in around £30-40 price range or less. I used to own both Blue Heaven and Red Dawn.
I used to have dark sounding system and now I have mostly lively cables.
But, recently I changed my dark speakers to more open and bright sounding monitors and now I am looking for cables with more bass weight and less "aggressive" mids and highs.
Last week I had a chance to listen to VDH 1st Ultimate mk2 and was pleasantly surprised and in my system sounded even more open, 3d, live with warm mids and highs with more prominent bass lines.
So far I did not like VDH, but with recent speaker change changed my mind.
I think I will go with VDH 1st ultimate mk1
But, recently I changed my dark speakers to more open and bright sounding monitors and now I am looking for cables with more bass weight and less "aggressive" mids and highs.
Indeed, and that will likely make all the difference! So I can't see why you won't be delighted with the VDH 1st ultimate mk1s :)
Marco.
RoboCopper
23-02-2012, 12:10
I hope that vdh 1st ultimate mk1 will satisfy me.
I already have VDH 'The Wind' mk1 for speakers with black sheathing it would maybe be a good match.
I'm sure it will work out well for you, Roberto.
I also use 'The Wind' speaker cable, and it's amongst the best I've heard at any price, but for some reason, the VDH speaker cables seem to have a different sonic signature from their interconnects.
Marco.
southall-1998
23-02-2012, 13:21
I'd better clear this up before Marco questions it :)
The derogatory term I posted above is mainly attributed to their interconnect range, although I found the very popular D102 to be ok in this respect, along with the cheaper "Second" interconnect for some reason. All the "First" samples I've heard just sit on dynamics - cymbals become monotonic and any expression in the playing just disappears (I've heard the jazz drummer Alan Ganley almost play tunes on a couple of cymbals with his brushes, so deft and sensitive was his playing and much of this should come over on his recordings with Carol Kidd at least).
The ONLY VDH speaker cable I had any time for was the "Wind" which Marco uses. An excellent wire, either due to the heavy gauge, or perhaps the carbon-fetish VDH have ;) It's a great speaker wire though...
Dave,
How would you compare the VDH CS122 to the VDH Wind speaker cables? I like the CS122, nice and smooth:)
If you like it, then you like it...
Real life ain't smooth in any shape or form, please remember that everyone :) make sure that "smooth" doesn't stomp all over subtle dynamic shades..
P.S. What I like about the HD Mark Grant cable is that it's sensible with no fancy foo in anything other than the double-shielding, and even this is a genuine "feature" used in many pro cables in one way or another...
RoboCopper
23-02-2012, 15:21
Well, real life definitely isnt smooth, or even real life performance of musicians as it can sound aggressive and harsh even painful (mostly with amplified concerts).
But when I listen to cheap (and own) peanuts Hifi I prefer sweet lies and it really hurts me when at low levels volume I am not attracted to music due to being agressive.
Last speakers were too dark, warm and veiling and new ones are too open, thin sounding and harsh.
But I found it to live easier with new sound. My electronics are not up to scratch.
And therein lies the truth of the matter, and why the choice you've made is valid :)
Marco.
icehockeyboy
23-02-2012, 17:01
One mans smooth is another mans.....erm........bland n dull!
RoboCopper
27-02-2012, 00:01
I just got it today.
Yes it is bland and dull, but this definitely suits me in my present system (and maybe state of hifi mind).
The thing is that I enjoy my music now more as before due to more sweetness and warmness in music.
The only difference (from memory) between first ultimate mk1 and mk2 is that m1 has got more bass(which is ok by me), but it has less details. Mk2 maybe sound more linear, but both sound very similar, this differences are minute.
The only problem I can hear (when maybe my halogen light is in the middle of the dimmer) is noise but only when I use cable between preamp and amp. Between CD and preamp is fine.
Those are my first impressions and I like it quite a lot as it sounds different and with more details as opposed to my other ICs. My only regret would be that I should have taken mk2 if I had a chance.
Anyone have experience in adding more shielding to the cable, withouth soldering or damaging cable in any way?
cheers I am back to listening sweet, warm, "sultry" sounds :)
Maybe there's a way to supress the dimmer?
RoboCopper
27-02-2012, 00:58
Yes, there is!
In off position, no lights though :doh:
I am not sure how would I suppress the dimmer, but it could be a good thing. It is one of those cheap halogen lamps switches.
Don't dimmers "chop" the mains up, rather than attenuate it?
RoboCopper
27-02-2012, 09:10
I have no idea, I rather try to extra shield the cable without soldering or cutting te cable.
As other cables do not show this when dimmer is in middle position (as usually at night is).
This buzz is not occurring when cable is connected between CD and preamp.
The Mark Grant HD wire is double screened...
RoboCopper
27-02-2012, 09:23
Where I can get it? What is exact model and best prices?
Cheers
hifinutt
28-02-2012, 02:24
So you prefer VDH 1st?
Is it mk1 or mk2?
mark 2 i think
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