View Full Version : Guys, help please!
realysm42
14-02-2012, 19:19
Right, got my M-dac delievered (at last!)
I've got sound coming through it, so it works lol.
It's connected to my pc via coax.
I've been reading through the manual and it's telling me that in order to use it with a pc, I should use USB and select it as a deafult device, which makes sense.
The way it works, it sounds far better and more detailed than the sound card I had, so why does the manual tell me to do it this way?
I'm not being stupid and getting the on board audio to do the work am I?
(I'd be extremely embarrassed if this is the case, because the way it sounds it wipes the floor with the sound card I've been using for ages!).
***EDIT*** one potential reason for the jump in sound quality is I've gone from a crappy generic audio cable to an Oyaide and Cardas neutral reference xlrs's on a fully balanced setup.
My concern it my onboard audio is doing the work and the dac is just sitting there as part of a link in the chain, as it's not selected as the default device (it's not installed on my pc).
Can anyone advise me please?
Hi
Audiolab M-Dac? Nice.
The reason they tell you to use the USB, as far as I know, is that you are not dependent on the on board sound chip and its clock. By passing data via USB straight to the DAC, the jitter is only that caused by the M-DAC (probably very low).
As with all things, try both and see if have a preference. I don't know your DAC very well but often you are limited with the bit and sampling rates over USB to 16/44.1 or 48 and can only do the 24/192 over coax or toslink.
Hope this helps
M
Actually I find Google tells me The M-DAC deals happily with hi-res 24-bit/192kHz files via the coaxial input, but is limited to 24/96 over optical and USB.
It seems like the coax connection you have chosen is the best high-res option:
http://www.whathifi.com/review/m-dac
realysm42
14-02-2012, 19:31
Yeah, I did the research for that side of things, but after reading the manual I'm not sure if I've gone about it the right way; please could you look at this:
www.audiolab.co.uk/Manuals/M-DAC%20manual.PDF
Page 11 onwards tell you about using it as the default player for Windows 7, that's the platform I'm on.
It talks about being able to set Foobar 2000 to 24bit playback etc, but I can't do any of this as I'm using coax.
***EDIT*** Cheers for the answers guys, so as a rule of thumb, coax is the best option for PC playback? What do you reckon?
sq225917
14-02-2012, 19:33
The coax connection is not limited to 24/96 like the USb is, but the USb is the better connection in terms of bidirectional control, ie using the remote on the mdac to control the playback software on your pc.
Some pc's can have a noisy USb output, if it doesn't sound as good on USb, just stick with spdif, use what sounds best to you.
simon (owner of mdac pre-production sample unit).
Foobar 2k using WASAPI Event Style via a decent USB cable. Or JRiver.
In my opinion that's the best set up.
Yeah, I did the research for that side of things, but after reading the manual I'm not sure if I've gone about it the right way; please could you look at this:
www.audiolab.co.uk/Manuals/M-DAC%20manual.PDF
Page 11 onwards tell you about using it as the default player for Windows 7, that's the platform I'm on.
It talks about being able to set Foobar 2000 to 24bit playback etc, but I can't do any of this as I'm using coax.
***EDIT*** Cheers for the answers guys, so as a rule of thumb, coax is the best option for PC playback? What do you reckon?
realysm42
14-02-2012, 19:41
The coax connection is not limited to 24/96 like the USb is, but the USb is the better connection in terms of bidirectional control, ie using the remote on the mdac to control the playback software on your pc.
Some pc's can have a noisy USb output, if it doesn't sound as good on USb, just stick with spdif, use what sounds best to you.
simon (owner of mdac pre-production sample unit).
Tbh, I'm not fussed about how well the remote works, my concern is that as I can't select it as a device on my pc I'm infact using the on-board Realtek HD audio to decode the sound and not the DAC.
Is the DAC doing the work, even if it's connected by coax, I guess is what I'm asking. I'm guessing yes because it sounds so much better than the xonar essence I had in before it.
Also, how do you get it not to be at full volume with headphones please? I might have just ruined my Grado 225i's lol.
If you right click the volume icon in the bottom right corner, select playback devices, then right click your on board sound and select disable.
Then you must be using the DAC if you still have sound.
Tbh, I'm not fussed about how well the remote works, my concern is that as I can't select it as a device on my pc I'm infact using the on-board Realtek HD audio to decode the sound and not the DAC.
Is the DAC doing the work, even if it's connected by coax, I guess is what I'm asking. I'm guessing yes because it sounds so much better than the xonar essence I had in before it.
Also, how do you get it not to be at full volume with headphones please? I might have just ruined my Grado 225i's lol.
realysm42
14-02-2012, 19:53
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled.png
That's what the sound is coming from, I disabled it and the sound cut out.
So the huge difference I'm hearing right now is simply a cable upgrade?
Seems correct to me..coax out to the DAC. You are still using the onboard from a timing perspective I suspect..
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled.png
realysm42
14-02-2012, 19:57
Ok cool, so I'm doing it right lol?!
Why would anyone want to go through the rigmorale of going the USB route in that case?
realysm42
14-02-2012, 20:13
On further thought, it must be working as the digital cable can only carry a digital signal (from PC to DAC), the DAC converts it and then sends it to the amp as an analogue signal, right?
On further thought, it must be working as the digital cable can only carry a digital signal (from PC to DAC), the DAC converts it and then sends it to the amp as an analogue signal, right?
Yes, but there's jitter in the digital signal via the sp/dif - not via USB..(AFAIK)
Why is USB a rigmarole? Personally I have both coming out of my PC, but they supply different things...
realysm42
14-02-2012, 20:42
Looking at the manual that comes with the M-dac, there's a heck of a lot of settig up it would seem with the USB method.
TBH I'm probably talking out of my arse a bit here, this is the first DAC I've owned and am a bit exciteable about it all :D
Have you made use of tha asio4all software?
Looking at the manual that comes with the M-dac, there's a heck of a lot of settig up it would seem with the USB method.
TBH I'm probably talking out of my arse a bit here, this is the first DAC I've owned and am a bit exciteable about it all :D
Have you made use of tha asio4all software?
No I use WASAPI in Foobar or JRiver. I have asio4all installed but WASAPI is my preferred choice.
What are you listening through - 'phones or speakers?
You're probably being blown away by the extra space in the sound right?
realysm42
14-02-2012, 22:01
Right now speakers, I've basically got a completely new stereo over the last 3 months and it's been a joy incrimentally upgrading this and that.
Blown away is a good way of putting it, I had a Asus Xonar Essence ST in the pc before (that completely trounced anything I'd heard before it) but this is just night and day :D
One thing I'm surprised about is how much harder it seems to drive my sub, I have to have it at about 50% the original volume I kept it at prior.
I'm not too good at explaining things as articulately as some on here but the space is massively apparent. The depth and detail of every sound has increased massively. New details are hopping out all over the place, I can't stop smiling lol!
Hi Martin.
I don't know Your Dac and I haven't read through the rest of the posts properly.
A couple of things;
The M-Dac has I believe asynchronous data transfer and you can only use this over USB so connecting over S/PDIF wouldn't seem to be the way to get the best performance.
Hopefully the link i sent via pm has helped you sort out getting Win7 to send data via USB and at the native file bit depth and frequency.
realysm42
14-02-2012, 22:26
Hi Martin.
I don't know Your Dac and I haven't read through the rest of the posts properly.
A couple of things;
The M-Dac has I believe asynchronous data transfer and you can only use this over USB so connecting over S/PDIF wouldn't seem to be the way to get the best performance.
Hopefully the link i sent via pm has helped you sort out getting Win7 to send data via USB and at the native file bit depth and frequency.
Yeah, thanks for the link; there's actually something that doesn't work for me in the instructions you sent me, and I think it's due to me not using USB:
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled-1.png
So the box on the left is from the page you linked me, the right box is what my pc is saying, you can see my "speakers" aren't connected, I think this is because I'm using coax and not USB. So to do what the instructions are telling me (and the M-dac manual) I'd need usb. None of my files are @192 anyway lol.
That looks to be because you're using S/PDIF.
While is true you can pass 24/192 data over S/PDIF if your Dac is going to make use of one of its main selling points (USB asynchronous data transfer)
then you owe it to yourself to give it a try.
Hopefully then the sent instructions will work.
I don't use S/PDIF anymore despite the 24/192 no replay penalty on a Windows computer.
There really is so little genuine 24/192 material out there it just isn't an issue.
realysm42
14-02-2012, 22:40
Cheers Welder, thanks for letting me know :yesbruv:
Do you know of any particular USB cables worthy of the role?
I wouldn't worry too much about setting foobar to 24 bits either.
16 bit is fine. All you do by setting foobar to 24 bit replay is add a bit of headroom,no extra music data as such.
realysm42
14-02-2012, 22:45
Could you give me a Plain English explination as to what asynchronous actually means please?
From what I've heard, it's to do with jitter removal, right?
Is jitter what I've heard tonight, it sounds almsot like a lightly scratched cd during playback?
realysm42
14-02-2012, 23:49
Little shameless bump, does it matter which version of the USB cable I get, is 3.0 any better than 2.0 for audio?
The theory is as I understand it something like this.
Clocks control data flow through a computer and a Dac.
A Dac has a buffer (a storage point) where the data gets piled up before it gets sent the chip that turns the data into an analogue signal.
The asynchronous Dac uses its own clock and two way communication with the computer to tell the computer when to send data, eg when there is room in the buffer. This data isn't a stream as such, it gets sent in packets.
The adaptive Dac relies on the computers clock to set the rate of data transfer, the Dac adapts to the computer.
S/PDIF relies on the clock in the computer to set the rate of data flow to the Dac. S/PDIF only allows data to travel in one direction so the Dac doesn't communicate with the computer.
Something like that anyway ;)
purite audio
15-02-2012, 00:05
Could you give me a Plain English explination as to what asynchronous actually means please?
From what I've heard, it's to do with jitter removal, right?
Is jitter what I've heard tonight, it sounds almsot like a lightly scratched cd during playback?
Async just means that the source and the dac 'handshake' and the dac agrees to take the data but not the embedded timing signal, it is the best way to transfer timed data.
Keith.
Little shameless bump, does it matter which version of the USB cable I get, is 3.0 any better than 2.0 for audio?
Cor, you know how to pick them :lol:
My view is not really as long as it has the USB compliant certification stamp on it.
Some say the USB cable you use matters less for asynchronous data transfer than it does for adaptive because asynch should help to reduce jitter.
I use Belkin Gold in my system, but I've soldered the B plug end (smaller) to the Dac input and kept the cable short for my HRT Dac basically.
The length does matter. USB cables are in genral only good for around 5M.
The theory is the shorter the better.
The data transfer speed capability of the cable shouldn't make any difference if you consider the data gets stopped at the Dac before conversion.
realysm42
15-02-2012, 00:54
Cheers gents.
I know how I must sound to people that are experienced in audio; I have to beleive that the only stupid questions are the unasked ones :D
I've learnt a heck of a lot since joining this forum and am really appreciative of the advice and reception I've got.
Nobody knows it all Martin.
Everybody has to learn. Computers and audio aren't the easiest combination to get to grips with because you cant see what needs bashing more often than not. :D
realysm42
15-02-2012, 09:53
True say! I'm going to get a USB cable today and see what happens.
There's an option on the DAC to have it so it's stuck at 0db volume (for use with a pre amp). What's the point in this, to improve sound quality? Is it a non issue? I tried both ways and couldn't determine a difference. I'll try it again once it's burned in though.
In my mind, I'd rather have it without adjustable volume, sticking to the ethos there should be one master volume in the system.
Stratmangler
15-02-2012, 10:08
Little shameless bump, does it matter which version of the USB cable I get, is 3.0 any better than 2.0 for audio?
Do not get caught up in the number trumping game.
USB 2.0 is more than adequate for audio use; what's more it's unlikely that your computer has any USB 3.0 connections on it.
I've seen a post recently on the Squeezebox forum where the poster followed the same logic for a network connection cable and ended up making things sound worse because he used a Cat7 patch cable in a non Cat7 installation.
Cat7 cable is "1 better" than Cat6 cable, innit? :eyebrows:
realysm42
15-02-2012, 11:55
Lol, I hear you :D
Cheers Welder, thanks for letting me know :yesbruv:
Do you know of any particular USB cables worthy of the role?
Yes Kimber Ag 0.5m - £70 odd from Russ Andrews... untouchable IMO.
Made a noticeable difference over a standard screened USB:)
realysm42
15-02-2012, 17:24
Does your DAC have asynchronous USB built into it?
Stratmangler
15-02-2012, 17:24
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=295149&postcount=2
If the USB cable is up to spec then it should be fine.
I can't bear the idea of spending three score and ten pounds on a USB cable ;)
Could I suggest that you DO change the bit depth to 24bit in Foobar, I did on my Win7 setup and I've not looked back. I hear a huge improvement although I couldn't tell you why. Using coax instead of a quality USB cable also improved matters immensely for me. Not questioning your knowledge John, just telling it as I hear it :scratch:
bobbasrah
15-02-2012, 17:30
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=295149&postcount=2
If the USB cable is up to spec then it should be fine.
I can't bear the idea of spending three score and ten pounds on a USB cable ;)
70 quid? Jeez...... Why?
For a normal asynchronous DAC a standard usb cable is fine, Belken or similar being reaonably good quality.
Kimber etc is a complete waste of a perfectly decent purchase of albums...
realysm42
15-02-2012, 17:33
Personally, I'm happy to hear it all; I'm likely to give everything a shot anyhow :)
I went through what you are currently struggling with just before Christmas Martin and it is a royal PITA. As I'm sure many will tell you on here, Windows is a pain to setup for 24bit playback, but persevere bud because I'm living proof that it is worth it in the end, well worth it :D
bobbasrah
15-02-2012, 18:03
A handy reference as always http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/index.html
I keep hearing of people having problems setting up yet never had any problems either with XP or 7.
Dave, you are probably correct that coax is the better way to go with the Beresford. This is a different DAC entirely, which may be tilted toward a different optimum input.... Try each to find the best solution for you without resorting to fancy cables Martin, and make up your own mind....
You still at it Martin. ;)
Any USB cable that has the USB compliant stamp on it will do Martin.
Pretty much any of the Belkin range will do the trick.
If there is anything in different USB cables changing the sound I haven't heard it yet.
@ Dave
No worries,but I was never entirely sure you had USB data transfer properly sorted in your system. ;)
Martin has an asynchronous Dac so recommending he uses S/PDIF (which defeats the whole object) is a bit daft; he may as well have bought an S/PDIF Dac in the first place.;)
realysm42
15-02-2012, 18:29
Ha ha I'm with my brother right now, we're about to see if th eproof's in the pudding, by swapping my Oyaide coax for a £4 USB, setup under your instruction Welder; will report back in a minute (or ten).
Ha ha I'm with my brother right now, we're about to see if th eproof's in the pudding, by swapping my Oyaide coax for a £4 USB, setup under your instruction Welder; will report back in a minute (or ten).
Well:)
jon
realysm42
15-02-2012, 19:00
AARRGH! Can you help please?
This is what I'm seeing:
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled-2.png
As you can see, I can't set it to 24-bit and also, this is what my device settings look like (I can't match what the instructions are telling me to do. In other words I can't get it to work with USB no matter what I've tried so far)
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled-3.png
My real setup is the one on the right, oppsed to the instructions.
realysm42
15-02-2012, 19:03
Right, stick all of what I just said in the bin, I reset it and it works :)
Let the audition commence!
(I still can't change the output data fromat in Foobar, any advice?)
Right, stick all of what I just said in the bin, I reset it and it works :)
Let the audition commence!
(I still can't change the output data format in Foobar, any advice?)
Have you put the plug ins in foobar? WASAPI output support..and try double clicking on output in foobar
jon
realysm42
15-02-2012, 19:46
No, I'm on it, thanks.
bobbasrah
15-02-2012, 19:47
I have not gone back to check what you have already done Martin but you should be able to see your usb device listed as a wasapi.... Haven't set Foobar up in a long while so might I suggest dropping down any components you are likely to need such as
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_wasapi
Foobar components folder should have various add-ons dumped down from the Foobar site to suit what you want to play, alac, monkey, etc..
Doubled with you.... As John said.....
Really surprised at you guys who haven't heard the difference in a good USB cable... I blind listened and picked out my Kimber Ag from the standard cable quite easily (good use of my 11 year old son - assistant to my blind listening tests!).
There's some theory behind the madness but I guess you can Google that yourself...hey some people claim they can tell one fuse from another.....and I remember Peter Bell in the 80s who used to claim the maddest of things with little bits of plastic and aligning screw heads etc... but! but! my Kimber cable made an audible difference - less sibilance and even more air.
Stratmangler
16-02-2012, 17:41
Anyone fancy sending their "superior" USB cable to me to have a listen to then?
bobbasrah
16-02-2012, 19:08
Really surprised at you guys who haven't heard the difference in a good USB cable... I blind listened and picked out my Kimber Ag from the standard cable quite easily (good use of my 11 year old son - assistant to my blind listening tests!).
There's some theory behind the madness but I guess you can Google that yourself...hey some people claim they can tell one fuse from another.....and I remember Peter Bell in the 80s who used to claim the maddest of things with little bits of plastic and aligning screw heads etc... but! but! my Kimber cable made an audible difference - less sibilance and even more air.
Thing is Simon, neither mine nor the dac in question needs a 70 quid cable to correct anything, which is why even a 5 or 10 quid usb works fine....
bobbasrah
16-02-2012, 20:19
Any update Martin? It's way past 10 minutes now......
Bob, I reckon its either that good that he cant tear himself away, or that bad that he's gone on the piss.:lol:
Stratmangler
16-02-2012, 22:01
Anyone fancy sending their "superior" USB cable to me to have a listen to then?
I can see that nobody is confident in their claim for better sound using foo USB cables then ;)
realysm42
16-02-2012, 22:23
Hi Guys, quick update; all sort of hecticness has occurred with the setup, which I won't go into right now.
Long and short of it is I'm going to be reformatting my PC this weekend with clean driver install and start again with it.
What I can tell you so far (and take this with a huge pinch of salt as I'll be the first to say I'm probably listening on a system that's not optimally set up) is for this purpose, I can't hear any difference between a £250 silver coax and a £4 USB cable.
Right now I'm still enjoying a huge jump in sound quality over what I had and the jitter free playback the £4 cable costs.
Make of this what you will :)
bobbasrah
17-02-2012, 08:57
Hi Guys, quick update; all sort of hecticness has occurred with the setup, which I won't go into right now.
Long and short of it is I'm going to be reformatting my PC this weekend with clean driver install and start again with it.
What I can tell you so far (and take this with a huge pinch of salt as I'll be the first to say I'm probably listening on a system that's not optimally set up) is for this purpose, I can't hear any difference between a £250 silver coax and a £4 USB cable.
Right now I'm still enjoying a huge jump in sound quality over what I had and the jitter free playback the £4 cable costs.
Make of this what you will :)
Glad you are getting results out of it, but sorry to hear that a reinstall is necessary Martin, and most surprised. Win7 is supposed to be pretty resilient, and a reinstall is a lot of faffing around.:rolleyes:
The audio player program should take exclusive control of it's selected audio to the DAC. This appears only in the player's dropdown at Foobar/Preferences/Playback/Output in your case, and should show up there as a WASAPI to your usb DAC.:D
That gives a dedicated route for selected music on your player via the DAC.
You also have the capability to simultaneously and independently select where all other mainboard audio goes (for Internet or video) to HDMI or Digital Optical out on the Audio Devices button on the toolbar as you wish. :cool:
My music plays via a dedicated player under an umbrella program to ASIO/DAC, but if I play video under the same umbrella program, it reverts to the Windows audio controller.;)
Rare Bird
17-02-2012, 09:19
I can see that nobody is confident in their claim for better sound using foo USB cables then ;)
:lolsign:
I can see that nobody is confident in their claim for better sound using foo USB cables then ;)
Well of course not - and here are some very good reasons
1. I don't spend all day on this forum or any other so have only just seen your laid down gauntlet!
2. If I send you my Kimber Ag, how do I know that you will listen impartially seeing as your mind is already made up?
3. I don't know you from Adam, how do I know you'll return it? (granted you probably would)
4. I no more need to prove it to you than I need to prove my legitimacy of birth, sexuality or bank balance!
5. You are obviously very interested to test one out - under distance selling regs why not buy one and then send it back if you are unhappy? Then you'll know for sure and this transference / counter transference of thought and opinion can cease?
I would ordinarily say that analog cables are worth the investment and digital ones aren't, thus agreeing with you. However, having blind tested, the USB upgrade made a noticeable difference - as did a mains conditioner and better quality plug/iec/cable combination - there's a HUGE amount of RF noise in a PC...and UK mains is notoriously dirty. :)
bobbasrah
17-02-2012, 10:21
No offence meant Simon but I rather think you have missed the point....
Your assertion is wrong in being applied as a universal truth.
Async does not NEED a special cable, nor would using one have any effect. Your situation is entirely different.
As to the dirty mains (not only UK) and RF prone PCs, yes you have a point in the audio end of it, but not for data. Look for unscreened cables in a PC, SMPS, etc, yet they still function.
realysm42
21-02-2012, 19:41
Okay, so it was more like 10 days :D
I've got bit perfect playback and compared to the super bling cable I was using before?
Actually the cheaper cable (in this application) is superior. Not in terms of actual sound quality (I couldn't hear any difference tbh) but in terms of experience; there is no jitter.
Okay, so this isn't a like for like (coax vs usb) comparison, but as I've compared one of the best coax's vs a £4 generic usb cable, I think it's point proven.
One thing I will experiment with is a shorter usb cable, I'll see if I can find one with (thicker) shielding, but I'm in no rush to replace the one I have right now.
Cheers to everyone that advised me on this, my music's never sounded better, I've had such a great experience going back and listening to everything :)
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