Cartridge ideas?

[Gromit]

Ok, I'm now back to being sorted with my digitty bits so I'm after putting things straight again with the turntable. This means getting a new cartridge. The 103 Pro was a lovely beast, and there are plenty of folk who know how much I love the 'old nail', but to be honest I'd been spoilt by the delightful top end of my SAS'd M75ED which really brought orchestral music to life. The 103 was fabulous on rock and jazz though - still very little to beat it for the money.

Still, that's not to say that there ain't other cartridges out there to be tried which is why I'm after some ideas/shared experiences.

So...here's the low-down, plus a few ideas I've had of my own. The cartridge needs to be quite smooth, have tight and certainly not overblown bass (this is where the Shure(s) may not be ideal - they're quite fruity down there). Much prefer a high-output ie MM-input friendly.

Shure M97xe (which could receive a SAS tip in the future)
Ortofon 2M Blue
DL110 (had a couple of these before and they LOVE the 1210's arm)

Or...as a total wildcard, get Dom to re-tip my Stanton 500 II. I kinda like the idea of this, reckon it would be fun and certainly unusual!

Budget is up to £150, plus a 50 quid sweetener if it's worth the extra.

Thanks for any ideas. :)

[DSJR]

To mimick and possibly better (production tolerances) what you had before, a Shure V15T2 with SAS stylus... a V15 T3 with SAS will give you a flat response whether you like it or not (;) but IMO a V15 IV or M97 will almost certainly prefer a higher input impedance to the regular 47K (68K seems to be the preferred setting) to retain the sparkle of the others. Just adding capacitance isn't always the way to go apparently.

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6674

At least someone bothered to model what actually happens and came to some interesting (and provable?) conclusions here....


The DL110 in stock form will sound so ordinary and leaden in comparison. Re-tipped/cantilevered, it may be a different animal entirely however.

Your choice guv'nor, but dare I say "I told you so?" Maybe not, as you're suffering the pain.....

[Gromit]

Thanks Dave - unless I can persuade Ian to sell me my SAS'd 75 back I think I'll end up with another Shure anyway. The SAS tip has, I feel, thoroughly spoilt me - I've had better cartridges for playing rock'n'jazz etc but it's probably up with the best I've had for playing orchestral/classical. The clarity and openness of its sound was a minor revelation. Now I have the KAB damper on the 1210, it'd be a happier marriage with the arm too.

The '97 appeals because I can plug'n'play it for a while ie I don't have to wait a couple of weeks for a posh tip to arrive from Japan. Also, its warmth will suit the system - the Royds are bright little b*ggers, the Altos even more so.

Any views/experiences on the 2M Blue anyone? My main reservation on these though is the 'modern' MM sound they're alleged to have. Call me old-fashioned but I like to have a sound with meat on its bones. :)

[RobbieGong]

Thanks Dave - unless I can persuade Ian to sell me my SAS'd 75 back I think I'll end up with another Shure anyway. The SAS tip has, I feel, thoroughly spoilt me - I've had better cartridges for playing rock'n'jazz etc but it's probably up with the best I've had for playing orchestral/classical. The clarity and openness of its sound was a minor revelation. Now I have the KAB damper on the 1210, it'd be a happier marriage with the arm too.

The '97 appeals because I can plug'n'play it for a while ie I don't have to wait a couple of weeks for a posh tip to arrive from Japan. Also, its warmth will suit the system - the Royds are bright little b*ggers, the Altos even more so.

Any views/experiences on the 2M Blue anyone? My main reservation on these though is the 'modern' MM sound they're alleged to have. Call me old-fashioned but I like to have a sound with meat on its bones. :)

Hi Richard, I can thouroughly recommend the 2M Blue. I found it to be a great cart for not silly money. It has a full bodied and detailed presentation with meat on the bones as in it does not sound thin. I enjoyed it so much that I just had to then try the 2M Black which in itself is recommendation, it also looks great IMO and is easy to set up too. :)

[Macca]

Stanton 681EEE Mk3? it works for me has tight, tuneful bass and does not sound either modern or old-fashioned, somewhere in between, really. Not sure how it would do on Classical, though as I never touch it myself - although I can stick on a bit of Vivaldi and report back if you like ;)

[stewartwen]

There is a cart that is often overlooked.....................Pickering XV15............VERY VERY good cart......and so cheap as well.....but doubtless this state of affairs will change as everyone goes searching for one!
S

[DSJR]

The XV15 and 680/681 series share basically the same body, so any of them would be ok, neither an old fashioned dullard or a modern screamer either. The XV15/625 won't be anywhere near as subtle as an SAS, but there is a better XV15 above the Stanton 681EEE, the XV15-757S at around £130. I haven't heard it, but hopefully, it's related to the classic Stanton 881S from yesteryear.

The Ortofon 2M range is very good indeed and the more substantial looking bodies certainly look the business, but the costs get high as you go up the range. I love the old M20FL Super I use and understand the 2m-Blue is possibly where the former is at these days (don't know how much better the Black is).

[Marco]

Hi Richard,

It's a shame that you couldn't get the 103Pro to work properly (and indeed the Lentek I loaned you). Had the latter not developed a fault, which I'll investigate fully when I get the unit back, I'm sure you'd have heard more of the 103Pro's true potential :)

The problem is that it takes much more to get the best from a low-output MC cartridge, particularly a 103, than it does from an MM one, which is largely (although not solely) why you're able to obtain much better results with the Shure, in your (as I'm sure you're aware) relatively budget system.

Also, the 103 was never the best choice of cartridge for classical music. It excels with rock, pop (particularly anything with a rhythmic beat) and jazz.

Another major reason, stylus type aside, why the Shure will be a more synergistic match in your current system, is because MMs work bloody well on the Techy arm, whereas low-output MCs don't. There's no getting away from the fact that the Techy arm just isn't up to the job of releasing the true potential of low-output moving coil cartridges.

However, the 103Pro, in the right set-up, does not lack top-end. Remember that it's been modifed to have a frequency response of up to 55,000Hz!! Therefore, used with an appropriate tonearm and phono stage (particularly in conjunction with a quality head amp or SUT), there is no shortage of high-frequency information or 'sparkle'. Jeez, you should hear what one sounds like here! :eek:

Therefore, Dave, sorry, but I'm not having this:


Your choice guv'nor, but dare I say "I told you so?"


:nono: ;)

The SAS-tipped 75 no doubt sounded superb in your system, Richard, in no small amount due to the superb Jico tip, but also because at the moment your system suits quality MM cartridges more than it does quality MC ones. That's it in a nutshell.

Therefore, it makes sense to stick with using MMs until your system is able to properly showcase what something like a DL-103Pro is really capable of. In the meantime, dude, enjoy the music! :cool:

Marco.

[Gromit]

Hi Marco - if anything, the Pro is too bright in my rig and it's actually possible to 'hear' the Technics' arm in certain instances, and when things get really heavy-going on certain records the sound can start to 'mush-up'. I've also got a 103R borrowed from a mate and that's even brighter - basically down to its different requirements vs the Pro - where loading's concerned. Keep the music sweet and simple, and it shines.

It is shame as I've had 103's sounding brilliant before - and on most material I listen to. It just needs a better, & more hefty arm to keep it in check. The SAS M75 did sound great, but as evidenced by the amount of cone-flap probably wasn't the best mechanical match for the 1210's arm, which is why it'd be interesting to try again now I've got the damper fitted (which also helped a little with the 103 Pro).

Still, all part of the fun. :)

[Marco]

Indeed, matey. The lack of top end comments, incidentally, weren't aimed at you. Those were for old Davy-boy, who appeared to be insinuating that you'd prefer the SAS-M75 because of the 103's less detailed top-end (the old spherical stylus nugget), which in the right system, is bollocks.... If I've read you wrongly here, Dave, please say :)

Anyhoo, yes, as I've been saying for years, the 103 like MASS - and LOTS it! Oh, btw, did I say that the 103 likes mass??? You get the picture!! ;)

It also prefers to be used with an MC head-amp or properly matched SUT, through a solid-state or valve MM phono stage, than it does through just a phono stage (SS or valve) alone.

Marco.

[Gromit]

Someone on PFM pointed me towards this (http://www.lptunes.com/Audio-Technica-AT7V-AT-7V-phono-cartridge-p/at7v.htm) which looks quite interesting. It's basically a newer update on the old TK Signet cartridge range, but with lower compliance to suit more modern arms.

Bill Thakker is doing it for just under 150 quid which is a mite steep c/w with what it can be bought for in the US. Been doing a fair bit of reading around about it this afternoon, and it would appear it's quite a sweet-sounding cartridge and not the usual 'bag of tweeters' that many AT's seem to be. A fair few folk using them in std 1210 arms too with what appears to be great success.

[Dingdong]

I know a bloke that could be persuaded to let his M95ED go for cheap;). Apparently it just sits on a shelf unloved all the time.

[chris@panteg]

Someone on PFM pointed me towards this (http://www.lptunes.com/Audio-Technica-AT7V-AT-7V-phono-cartridge-p/at7v.htm) which looks quite interesting. It's basically a newer update on the old TK Signet cartridge range, but with lower compliance to suit more modern arms.

Bill Thakker is doing it for just under 150 quid which is a mite steep c/w with what it can be bought for in the US. Been doing a fair bit of reading around about it this afternoon, and it would appear it's quite a sweet-sounding cartridge and not the usual 'bag of tweeters' that many AT's seem to be. A fair few folk using them in std 1210 arms too with what appears to be great success.

Hi Richard

That AT is another mm that Richard of vantage suggested as well as my current precept !

Not toppy at all apparently.

[Marco]

Been doing a fair bit of reading around about it this afternoon, and it would appear it's quite a sweet-sounding cartridge and not the usual 'bag of tweeters' that many AT's seem to be.

Lol! I love that expression and would concur completely.

Marco.

[Gromit]

Hi Richard

That AT is another mm that Richard of vantage suggested as well as my current precept !

Not toppy at all apparently.

Ooh - now that is a decent enough endorsement for me, Chris. I'll give Richard a call over the weekend, get the low-down on the '7. :)

[chris@panteg]

Ooh - now that is a decent enough endorsement for me, Chris. I'll give Richard a call over the weekend, get the low-down on the '7. :)

:) I'm starting to like the "precept" sounds nothing like modern AT's , the bass is a little rounded and slightly full , but it sounds so unforced yet detailed , seems to be getting better with more hours on it , i think the AT7 might sound very similar though this precept has a shibata type stylus.

[Gromit]

Just spotted this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAE-1000LT-MOVING-COIL-CARTRIDGE-NOS-SME-MICRO-SEIKI-/360340195810?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e5f309e2) which looks quite interesting. I remember Coral cartridges quite well, my dad once having an MC88E many years ago, and that's who made these SAE jobbies.

Reading around, it seems those who've bought them are very happy with them.

[DSJR]

I remember the Coral as being rough as a badger's backside, but hey, we were getting off on the Entre, the Supex 900E, the FR MC's and top line Grado Signatures and Stanton 881S from the period......

The "Signet" models were a but dull and needed low mass arms originally. I have no idea though how a current one would compare with the AT120E though. The comment above regarding "bagful of tweeters" is telling though, more about the quality (or lack thereof) of the tweeters used in many speakers, rather than a "fault" in the AT designs, many of which are optimised for their home-pressed vinyl in any case........

[chris@panteg]

Richard , how about finding a Technics 205 mk2 or 3 , maybe around £90 + a Jico stylus and this should be a perfect partner for the Techy ?

[Gromit]

I remember the Coral as being rough as a badger's backside, but hey, we were getting off on the Entre, the Supex 900E, the FR MC's and top line Grado Signatures and Stanton 881S from the period......

The "Signet" models were a but dull and needed low mass arms originally. I have no idea though how a current one would compare with the AT120E though. The comment above regarding "bagful of tweeters" is telling though, more about the quality (or lack thereof) of the tweeters used in many speakers, rather than a "fault" in the AT designs, many of which are optimised for their home-pressed vinyl in any case........

Must admit my experience of the MC88E is only limited to my old man's one, which was used in a TD160/GH228 and it sounded like a fairly rounded device - he was using Mk1 Castle Kendals though which weren't the last word in high frequency extension.

The AT-7V is a little bit confusing spec-wise, some folk are saying it's a high cu cartridge but AT state its around 7cu dynamic but around 25 static (I tend to ignore specs though - if it works it works and sod the figures. :)

I dunno...I'm such a sucker for stuff which is slightly off the beaten hifi track. Buying a Ortofon or some such, despite it probably being the 'wisest' decision, would seem to be such a cop-out. :D

[Gromit]

Richard , how about finding a Technics 205 mk2 or 3 , maybe around £90 + a Jico stylus and this should be a perfect partner for the Techy ?

Hi Chris - funnily enough Richard let me hear one when he popped up a few weeks ago. Was a very sweet'n'smooth performer in the 1210 - very low output though (for an MM).

I'd scour the www - although I'd expect they're quite rare.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Chris - funnily enough Richard let me hear one when he popped up a few weeks ago. Was a very sweet'n'smooth performer in the 1210 - very low output though (for an MM).

I'd scour the www - although I'd expect they're quite rare.

They do come up for sale , one sold last year for £92 , bear in mind the cost of a Jico SAS though ! But a lovely cartridge , glad I persevered with the Precept as I really like it now , he did say it was one of AT's finest mm's .

[Dingdong]

There's a V15 III and a IV on ebay with MR tips. The MR tips are quite good imo.
Or do you fancy a change from Shure?

[DSJR]

There's a V15 III and a IV on ebay with MR tips. The MR tips are quite good imo.
Or do you fancy a change from Shure?

The MR tips are really excellent and the SAS is the only replacement I'd go for.

Of the two models, I'd probably suggest the V15 III (or a II without stylus plus an SAS in Richard's case) as I mentioned before, since the II SAS should be more like a "blue-printed" M75-ED (SAS) model..

I must admit to being a sort of closet ADC XLM fan. The XLM III, ZLM and Phase 4 models are really good, quite sweet toned and generally track well. However, the V15's do have a greater sense of "precision," especially once the diamond is improved to MR or SAS levels...

Taking the ADC's further, good and bad, there seem to be a few Sonus Gold-Blue's left for £86 or so on eBay. Steve (Worrasf) has one and really rates it, but they do exhibit an ultrasonic peak which the phono stage will need to safely handle without further ringing. Excellent mids and clean bass though :)

One final one, but seemingly no nos ones left, and that's the Ortofon M20 series (not the Dual M20, which is a VMS20 in slight disguise I think). The M20E Super is lively and extremely involving, lacking the bass thickness the M15 and VMS models can have in some systems. I'd personally put the lower compliance M20 FL Super among the classic greats - REALLY excellent diamond, low to medium compliance allowing 1.5g tracking and very neutral sound of the best kind - natural tones without damping all the space and depth out...

[Dingdong]

This is the one I speak of.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130645779575?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Dave may be able to tell you if it is a proper MR tip and not a replacement.

[DSJR]

The HE had a red stylus and this was a clear improvement on the elliptical nail originally fited to the Mk3 (sold and heard a couple of IIIHE's). Unless you try it, it's going to be difficult to know how good the diamond on this is still, so try to keep future funds around for an SAS tip. I'm afraid I never heard the MR tip on a V15 III, so can't confirm the stylus colour, but if it's anything like the end-of-side definition of the V15 VMR, it'll be fantastic.

P.S. The VN35MR was also red colour :)

[Gromit]

Decisions, decisions...

I'm being too careful now - trying not to buy something like a DL110 or 2M Blue is proving somewhat tricky. For me it's like buying a Ford Focus, realising it's a perfectly good car, but really wanting something like an old Alfa Romeo. Because my turntable's not been delivering the goods very well recently, I'm actually quite fearful of making it sound worse with the wrong choice of cartirdge.

Wondering if I should just bit the bullet, play safe and go for the 2M. :scratch:

Oh...and Scalford's getting nearer and nearer and I still have no needle in me Tecchy. :(

[Marco]

Sorry, I'm in a bit of a rush and have just come to this thread, so have just skimmed quickly through it...

Richard, is the 2M you're thinking of buying a black? If not, I don't think you'd like any of the other Ortofon MMs, as they're all rather 'modern sounding', in a bad sense, and lack the effortless musicality and 'meat on the bone' you prefer (as do I).

Before you commit yourself to buying anything, would you like to borrow my Pickering XV15-625E? It suits the stock Techy arm perfectly and has a sound I think you would love!

I could even fit it onto a nice spare headshell I've got, so you could do quick(ish) swaps between it and the other cartridges you've got for comparison.

Just shout 'Yo!' if yer fancies a play (for as long as you like)... :cool:

Marco.

[Gromit]

Hey Marco that would be awesome - thank you. :)

I've umm'd and ahhh'd over this for ages now; if I'd got a new arm (750D) on the horizon I'd just go for something much more serious cartridge-wise (most likely get Dom to re-tip the tired 103R a friend has let me borrow) but I've had to restrict myself to high output/MM types with a sub-£200 budget. It's made making a choice decidedly tricky!

Front runner has probably been the M97XE - not because it's perhaps that great a cartridge out of the box, but that those clever little chaps at Jico do their wonderful tip for it. Still, it's available for under 70 quid (the Shure, not the SAS obviously!) so in some ways what's to lose? :)

I have had the DL110 working very sweetly before, and when set up carefully it pushed aside some surprisingly expensive cartridges (Audio Note IQ3 being one). It's just that the Denon is a 'been there done that' cartridge for me...and it doesn't really appeal to my left-field way of doing things. :)

[Marco]

Ok, dude, I'll mount it up in a headshell, over the weekend, and pop it in the post to you on Monday :cool:

Marco.

[DSJR]

I have a sneaking feeling that the XV15/625 as well as it's Stanton 680E and EEE relatives would also prefer a tad higher input impedance than the regulation 48K, as does the M97XE apparently. This would liven them up WITHOUT them going all sterile and unpleasant.

[Gromit]

Things would seem that way Dave with regard to the loading on these cartridges - reading around, getting the loading (both in resistance and capacitance) just right really brings them to life.

Still, Marco's been kind enough to send me the Pickering to try, and it'll be a very interesting proposition as not really heard a decent Pickering nor Stanton before. :)

Still also completely undecided what cartridge to go for next - I thought buying a relatively low budget, high output cartridge would be easy!! :D

[DSJR]

It's cos you're asking here :)

I stand by my suggestion of a V15 II with SAS stylus. Similar to but probably better than (better body tolerances?) the M75-SAS you had before :)

[Gromit]

Well, after all this I've scored myself a very low-mileage 10X5 - a cartridge I know fairly well as my old man uses a 10X4 in his Planar 3 (I set it up for him).

We'll see how it goes - will be easy enough to move in if need be, then I can search for that elusive V15/SAS and be eternally happy...or at least for a while. :)

[DSJR]

I'm giving up. We give you a variety of choices based on experience and you go and do summat completely different a*se about face...

[Gromit]

I'm giving up. We give you a variety of choices based on experience and you go and do summat completely different a*se about face...

Story of my life Dave (perhaps comes from being left-handed??) :D

Seriously, the Dyna will be a useful 'opposite' to the Pickering that Marco's lending me. From that point I'll be able to suss out what direction I'd like to go, cartridge-wise. It's comparison I've not been able to do up until now. It's true the M75 SAS spoilt me, and I'm all too aware I shouldn't have let it go - but it's a repeatable purchase so no longterm harm done. It also made me very aware of how damn good these old cartridges can be, and that something like the V15 you mention could indeed be very special, and now with the KAB damper installed, the Tecchy's arm will be better prepared for one of these 'oldies'. :)

[Theo]

Good choice Richard - I loved my 10x5. It's pretty vice-free, nicely detailed, the bass doesn't feel "enhanced": hope you get on with it.

[DSJR]

The Pickering and 10XV won't sound so different, except the 10XV may be better in the bass due to its low compliance.

Remember that the 10X was much the same price as a DL110 at one time and regarded similarly for basic performance. Each little "mod" done to it enabled the price to be hiked up. Time and rising retail prices have elevated it to a higher plane (perceived value) I don't think it should be on - the Sumiko BPS is far better to me, especially if the VTA is carefully attended to..

Just my views obviously - and I'm cack/left handed too... I've been in this game too long methinks :(

[Tarzan]

Richard, l have just plugged an old Stanton 500 stylus into a newish Stanton 520 body- and it sounds bloody good, refined, full-bloodied and fun with a capital F, and not much wonga either:cool:

[DSJR]

+1 And a 500V3 stylus in an old 500 body is even better ;)

[Tarzan]

+1 And a 500V3 stylus in an old 500 body is even better ;)

Oh for god sake Dave- these carts are bloody addictive:eyebrows:

[Gromit]

Oh for god sake Dave- these carts are bloody addictive:eyebrows:

:lol:

I recently tried my 500AL and was surprised - shocked even - how darn listenable it was. Pretty ropey on classical/orchestral but great fun on rock/jazz etc. Tempted to get a new v3 stylus for it just to use as a spare.

Got my very old M44-7 fitted at the moment but it really is piss-poor.

[Tarzan]

Will try the V3 stylus in a 500 tonight Dave:cool:- it is never ending.:)

[DSJR]

The V3 claims to have a better polished tip on it :eyebrows: that's all. back in the 70's and early 80's, the finish of US sourced styli was a bit variable to say the least (Empire especially, where elliptical tips were actually rough conicals and lower caste Shures weren't immune either - as seen by myself on a decent microscope).

[Tarzan]

Will try the V3 stylus in a 500 tonight Dave:cool:- it is never ending.:)

Well, tried it and again very nice sound!:cool:

[DSJR]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Stanton 500 and Pickering V15 bodies are identical (as are the Stanton 680-681 and Pickering XV15) and to my knowledge haven't changed over the decades. The coil wire will be well insulated so no degradation I think and hope..

[Gromit]

Oh...I may just have a 97XE coming soon aswell. ;)

Richard at Vantage rang me earlier to tip me off about what he thought may be quite an interesting find on the Bay of E, a NOS Empire 900GT 'Golden Tip'. Reckoned price was a bit steep (more than I'd pay at the moment) but could have potential.

He said the 900II was based on the VMS20E so perhaps the GT was too?

Dave, anything in the memory banks about this one? :)

[Gromit]

The world's ugliest cartridge?

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00248.jpg

:D

[freefallrob]

No not ugly, 'interesting' :).

More to the point how does it sound?

[Gromit]

No not ugly, 'interesting' :).

More to the point how does it sound?

It's 'ok' I guess, Rob - some records (older jazz/big band) sound very good; detailed, clean and crisp. More surface noise than I expected but I believe this 97 only has a small handful of hours on it - probably less than 4 when I bought it, and only 3 or 4 more than that now. Hopefully it'll quieten down a little over time.

The 'Dynamic Stabilizer' (with trans-warp drive :D ) seems to work well - the cart sounds slightly better with it in action and cone-flap - what little there was - is totally absent with it in use.

Will let it bed in over the next few days and see how we go - it'll end up as a spare anyway until I can find the cartridge I really want. By all accounts though, these Shures are very sensitive to capacitance loading so it'll be worth having a play around with that at some time.

Oh...and those lovely chaps at Jico do their SAS tip for it too.

[DSJR]

He said the 900II was based on the VMS20E so perhaps the GT was too?

Dave, anything in the memory banks about this one? :)

Can't help you there I'm afraid. Empire went through loads of changes and after this (early 80's?), I lost touch..

See if you can sometime give the 97XE a 68K input impedance and of course, the SAS tip will transform it as it did with the M75....