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David Price
16-12-2008, 18:44
Good evening ladies and gentlemen!

This strand has been started in honour of Marco, who is hellbent on exposing the sinister truth behind Hi-Fi World's ritual slating of the aforementioned moving coil pickup...

So - I'll start the ball rolling. The reason I don't like it is that, ermm, I don't think it sounds very good!

:-)

Ermm... will this do?

David

ps - now Marco, you tell me what it is about it that you like?

Primalsea
16-12-2008, 19:55
Oh please stop it.

I will make a suggestion soon but first I have to say this: A while ago a member received some moderation for disagreeing (which is fine) and re-enforcing his view by making personal remarks and also saying that anyone who was not of like mind were not capable of making sound judgments (pun, haha,.... moving on).

I hate to say it but a similar thing has been done again, although not as blatant personal remarks, as well as remarks regarding the capacity to make judgements were made.

What I will be as bold to suggest is that if something is said anywhere, even if it a bit OTT, considered to be a bit rude, etc, etc we invite that person to explain what it is that they don't like about the item, forums, etc.

This (for items) could be done as a mini review with some guidlines that steer away from anything that can be considered rude or personal.

Possible outline could be:

When was it heard
Where
What was it used with
What music
What was liked and why
What was disliked and why

Any technical points or facts that support the opinion which must also be backed up by references to test data, white papers, articles etc.

I'm hoping that this would lead to constructive threads that stay well away from the personal side of things. To use a cliche or 2, 2 wrongs dont make a right and sometimes you just have to turn the other cheek. Retaliation just leads to Polarisation (that word again).

Steve Toy
16-12-2008, 20:02
I think that pretty well sums up our ethos Paul!

Marco
16-12-2008, 20:03
I hate to say it but a similar thing has been done again, although not as blatant personal remarks, as well as remarks regarding the capacity to make judgements were made.


Hi Paul,

Can you expand on this please? I'm not really sure what you're referring to.

David, very good! Perhaps you could just answer the post (and the questions, very clearly expressed, therein) I directed you to earlier?

This one here (#160) just to make it easy for you: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1538&page=16

If you don't feel like doing it, then there really isn't any point taking this discussion further as I'm not going to repeat myself :)

Marco.

Primalsea
16-12-2008, 20:08
So in that case David (or Noel or any 103 detractor), would you be kind enough to state what it is about the 103 that you don't like using the admittedly rough outline above. Feel free to copy and paste any things from previous articles from the mag or where ever.

Also Marco (or any other 103 fan) could you do the same and then we can take it from there, discussing any particular points in detail.

(Biting and nipple pinching is not allowed, testicle pulling allowed with consent from the target).

Primalsea
16-12-2008, 20:11
I'm sure I saw the word "Grumpy", the hint that someone doesn't do the reviews because they can't and shouldn't.

I know not really insulting but still not exactly healing words.

Marco
16-12-2008, 20:13
Paul, nice idea, but I don't see the point in repeating myself again. David knows the questions I'd like him to answer so it's up to him if he wishes to do so or not. If not, then I'm afraid this thread is dead in the water...

Marco.

Marco
16-12-2008, 20:17
I'm sure I saw the word "Grumpy", the hint that someone doesn't do the reviews because they can't and shouldn't.

I know not really insulting but still not exactly healing words.


Yes, I think that I may have referred to Mr Keywood rather tongue-in-cheek as "Ol grumpy", after him referring to the 103 as "tat" - healing words indeed!

Marco.

Neil McCauley
16-12-2008, 20:35
In the March Heathrow show this year I demonstrated the Harbeth 40.1 monitors using an LFD linestage 3 and 2 mono LFD PA3 power amps. Primary signal source was the Funk sapphire, Arthur K modified Ittok and …….. the cheapest 103D we could find. This went into the most musically engaging UK-built phono stage I know, the LFD MCT. The MCT is devoid of adjustment.

Adam Smith of Hi-Fi World wrote that this entire Stereonow combo was the best sound at the show.

Thank you ........ and goodnight.

sastusbulbas
16-12-2008, 20:39
What a sad state of events..


Due to this I vow never to use a Denon 103 cartridge.

Marco
16-12-2008, 20:47
Most interesting, Howard! :)

Sastus, that's a bit daft is it not?

I drew David's attention to a comment Noel made about the 103 in this month's HFW and asked him for his views in a perfectly reasonable manner. His reaction by starting this thread, instead of simply tackling my earlier post, is not my fault!

Marco.

Togil
16-12-2008, 21:04
It all just proves the extremely subjective nature of vinyl replay.

Marco
16-12-2008, 21:05
Indeed, Hans! :)

Marco.

sastusbulbas
16-12-2008, 21:08
Quote Marco,
Sastus, that's a bit daft is it not?

;)

I think one HAS to take a staunch stand on such matters, such trivial tit for tat is what starts World Wars!

It must not be allowed, in fact, I may well have to commission a time machine, just to go back in time and assassinate the designer of the Denon 103D cart, we know not where such debaucle may lead, this 103D debate could well be a catalyst that starts WWIII. Far better to decide not to go near one. Don't get involved is what someone said about something once.

For similar reasons I will never buy Tiger Eye veneer B&W speakers, as tigers are on the decline. Look what happened to Teak and Black ash! (When is the last time you saw a living walnut or black tree?)

No sorry Marco I cannot agree, the 103D is not a good cart, otherwise such naughty behaviour would not arise through it's discussion.

:ner:

Beechwoods
16-12-2008, 21:09
I considered a 103 but it was too quiet. Not enough volts came out, so I am happy to stick with my vintage Shure combo until Denon see fit to turbo-charge their protegé.

Sorry Marco.

Marco
16-12-2008, 21:12
<Snigger>

Marco.

David Price
16-12-2008, 21:17
Thanks Howard - this is *just* what I needed to illustrate my point!

Basically Marco has been saying to me, off-thread, XYZ.

He goes on to say, XYZ.

Howard, your reminding us of Adam's show report blows Marco's conspiracy theory out of the water - because if we "weren't allowed" to report favourably on the DL103 then I would have pulled/rewritten Adam's copy now, wouldn't I?

Marco - as I've said time and time again, there is NO conspiracy to do down this cartridge in Hi-Fi World. My point is simply that some of us don't like it and have said so in the mag, which we are perfectly at liberty so to do, as is Adam who liked Howard's system.

The fact that you obviously disagree so strongly with Noel's and my view seems to have lead you to come up with some sort of Dr. Evil style idea that 'dark forces' are acting against this poor innocent cartridge in our magazine. I really don't know what I can do more to convince you that Noel and I don't like it for reasons of sonics alone...

I hope that other readers of this post will be able to see the wood from the trees here. Surely reasonable folk will agree that we - like anyone else - have a perfect right to express a subjective opinion without having our motives/reputation impugned ("for fear of upsetting someone or something")? Marco it's a very big leap of logic from disagreeing with someone and casting aspersions about their integrity, isn't it? Please think about this.

Basically, on this new strand I wanted people to talk about why people like or dislike the Denon DL103 - and not start this nonsense about "well you would say that as you're obviously being controlled by some ulterior motive". But hey ho, we're back into slurs and personal attacks, aren't we? Now - as proof that life is beautifully circular, wasn't that what Malcolm Stewart was lamenting about forum behaviour in his piece that caused such consternation on another thread...?

:-O

David

Marco
16-12-2008, 21:22
David,

I think it's bad form to quote directly from a private email. I have edited your post accordingly. Can you please just simply answer the post of mine on the other thread (#160), tackling the necessary areas for response.

Here, I'll make it easy for you. This is exactly what I'd like you to reply to. I wrote earlier:


Lol. It's not difficult; I'm being very specific and not generalising in the slightest. Who’s been going on about forums recently? Answer: Roy Gregory and Malcolm Steward, therefore those are whom I'm referring to!

Like I said, I'd perhaps also chuck Mr Keywood into the mix after his comments below to a readers' letter about a DL-103 in this month's magazine (the chap had merely written in to say how happy he was with his new turntable and was eloquently extolling the virtues of it and the 103), to which Noel replied:


You'd be right to sell that tat ["tat" no less, eh?] Nigel and keep an eye on modern product. I well know and have used at length V15s and 3009s and they are "pleasent" shall we say. The Denon DL103 has sonic attractions perhaps, but is a grossy over rated product that is coloured and inaccurate; it's an internet special that's been talked up in the (deluded) collective conciousness [note spelling error again!]. You'd be better advised to get a good modern moving coil from Ortofon [Mr K has got Ortofon on the brain - does he have shares in the company?], Audio Technica or Dynavector [yes, perhaps just because he happens to favour the more analytical presentation of those cartridges - but does 'Nigel'?] I believe, unless you prefer romance to all else.


Now don't get me wrong, Noel's entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else, but does he have to be so insulting and unconstructive with it? "Deluded" and "tat" indeed! Poor Nigel, eh? He only wrote in to tell of his happiness with his new turntable and cartridge and was subjected to dog's abuse! I wonder if he'll be renewing his subscription?

And what's Noel's sudden obsession with "modern" this "modern", that? Does he think that all modern kit is automatically better than old stuff? I doubt it, as the same man is a valve amp and Garrard aficionado par excellence! So it's ok then to extol the virtues of "modern product" versus old in reference to cartridges, but somehow the same doesn't apply to turntables and amps from their respective eras? His views are totally inconsistent and don't seem to align with the ethos of HFW, which has always championed both new and old gear, the latter providing that it's performance is still competitive today. The 103, when properly partnered and set-up definitely comes into that category, otherwise I (and 1000s of others) wouldn't be using it!

The problem with the 103 is that magazines always make the mistake of reviewing it with a modern turntable and tonearm and judge it accordingly on that basis - it simply will not work as it should that way. It needs to be assessed in the context in which it was originally designed. Fortunately, to make the review relevant today that doesn't necessarily mean wheeling out an old SP10 or Garrard with a suitably high-mass arm to match. All one needs is a Technics SL-1200 or 1210 (preferably modified by KAB or Sound Hi-fi), fitted with a Jelco SA-750D S-shaped detachable headshell arm, and a nice high-mass headshell, like the LH-18 from Audio Technica: all 'modern' currently available equipment, and through a nice phono stage (preferably valve) which uses the necessary matching transformers, and away you go... I guarantee that if Noel (or David) heard the 103 in that context (both) their conclusions would be somewhat different!

But will they do that in order to give the 103 a fair hearing before judging, instead of arriving at ill-informed conclusions such it being "an internet special that's been talked up in the (deluded) collective conciousness" based on relative ignorance from using the wrong partnering equipment?

The funniest thing of all though, is that with Mr Keywood the words "Denon DL-103" appear to be permanently impregnated in his mind, and like a red flag to a bull goes charging off in a 'fit of rage' even when the DL-103 wasn't even being referred to.

How so?

Well, Nigel, at the end of his letter wrote:



Next stage? Enjoy the Sony as well as the LP12 and JBE Slate Series 3. And next year? Renovate/sell/exchange some or all of the rest of the collection - SL150, DENON DP2000, Mayware V, Hadcock, 228, SME 3009 Fixed, Shure V15 III, Rothwell transformer, Staglines N and K.


He never even mentioned the bloody DL-103 and yet Noel duly 'went off on one' as detailed above!!

So, I'd like to know what exactly his problem is with this particular cartridge, aside from issues regarding its sonic presentation. His innate dislike of the 103 appears to be run rather more deeply than simply not liking how it sounds...

Perhaps next time David joins us he could bring Noel with him to explain himself?


For starters will you admit to Noel making an absolute howler as described?

Once you've answered this question we can then proceed further ;)

Marco.

David Price
16-12-2008, 21:26
Hi Marco - sorry, I won't do this again. I had assumed you'd said as much previously, publicly on the site. David

Marco
16-12-2008, 21:34
No worries. Can we start again then by you answering the above highlighted post? :)

Marco.

David Price
16-12-2008, 21:34
Marco - I am still not sure what Noel's 'howler' is? Is it because he mentioned the DL103 without prompting? Is that what you mean? If so, possibly he had just been reading your posts on this very forum.

Not sure if this is evidence of anything to be honest. There are various other bits of kit that have a cult following on forums that he doesn't rate - but I'm not sure if I dare to mention them now in case it incurs your wrath! Don't go thinking the DL103 is NK's sole bugbear; I assure you it's not.

By the way, in the next issue of HFW, Noel slags off Triumph TR7s - he's as dismissive as he is about DL103s, and I have one and I'm not happy either now. He's upset me too! I'm off to www.forum.triumphtr7.com/default.asp to start a thread. I'm reading this as a deliberate attempt to dismiss old classic cars in favour of moderns, possibly with ulterior motives!

(Just kidding - well, almost!)

David

kt66
16-12-2008, 21:40
I REALLY hate TR7s......but I'm not going to tell you why. You love 1200s David, so have you tried a 103 on one? will you?

Marco
16-12-2008, 21:46
LOL :eyebrows:

David, I'd quite like to keep this light-hearted, too. I think it's obvious if you read the post that Noel made a bit of a 'boo-boo', but we'll leave it at that because it's obvious to everyone else who's read it! ;)

Ok, let's move forward... I would ask:

A) Do you think that it's acceptable and good business practice, in terms of the magazine, to refer to items of a reader's system as "tat"?

B) Could you list the last system you personally used (every item please) to assess the 103 and advise how long ago this occurred?

Cheers!

Marco.

Prince of Darkness
16-12-2008, 21:50
The reason I don't like it is that, ermm, I don't think it sounds very good!

:-)

Ermm... will this do?

David



The reason I like it is that, ermm, I think it sounds very good!
Oh, and it's cheap!

sastusbulbas
16-12-2008, 21:53
C'mon,

Cant we let Dave have his opinion on a public forum? Does he have to cross his t's and dot the i's just because he wrights stuff in a magazine?

Currently I feel all people are doing is alienating exactly the sort of members more forums should feel privileged to converse with.

In my opinion you can see such alienation starting over in Critic due to "better than though" attitudes, can we not rise above this, or will we end up no better than others?

Marco
16-12-2008, 21:54
It might be fairly cheap to buy, Kevin, but it takes a fair bit of expense (in terms of optimising its performance with the appropriate ancillaries) to hear it at its *absolute* best. I've spent £1000s doing just that to get the (quite incredible) results I've obtained :)

However, even simply slapped on any available T/T or tonearm I'd rather listen to it than some, bland, soulless, non-descript modern Ortofon!!

Marco.

Marco
16-12-2008, 21:57
C'mon,

Cant we let Dave have his opinion on a public forum? Does he have to cross his t's and dot the i's just because he wrights stuff in a magazine?

Currently I feel all people are doing is alienating exactly the sort of members more forums should feel privileged to converse with.

In my opinion you can see such alienation starting over in Critic due to "better than though" attitudes, can we not rise above this, or will we end up no better than others?

Steve,

David is free here to speak as he wishes. The "tat" comment was something written by Noel keywood in HFW this month in response to a reader's letter. Mr P seems to be rather enjoying the exchange. If not, he can say so and I will simply lock the thread.

David, how would you like me to proceed? The ball's in your court :)

Marco.

sastusbulbas
16-12-2008, 21:58
I myself was a big fan of Ortofons, mainly due to their even top to bottom balance and reasonable output.

I still have a Rohmann that has lost it's diamond...sigh...

SPS
16-12-2008, 22:01
I would be nice to know your 'kit' david..

i can see where your coming from regarding the 103, i quite like it.. but would not buy one.. i dont think..

To me its the cartridge equiverlant of some of the fostex drivers..
I'd better put my tin helmet on now..

mind you.. i have just bought £200 worth of different makes of stylus for a very elderly m3d.. and don't regret it at all...
most of my system is from the 60's or before.. maybe the 103 is a little to modern for me..

my corner ribbons would go well on the 'olde world' section
they are rare...

steve shiels

Marco
16-12-2008, 22:04
I myself was a big fan of Ortofons, mainly due to their even top to bottom balance and reasonable output.

I still have a Rohmann that has lost it's diamond...sigh...

Yes the Rohmann was quite nice, but the only Ortofons I've really liked are the classic SPU (various versions) and the SL-15. Haden Boardman has got excellent taste ;)

Marco.

Marco
16-12-2008, 22:07
i can see where your coming from regarding the 103, i quite like it.. but would not buy one.. i dont think..

To me its the cartridge equiverlant of some of the fostex drivers..
I'd better put my tin helmet on now..


LOL! That's quite funny Steve, if you don't mind me saying, considering that when my A23 SUT was used there was next to bugger all difference between my 103R and your beloved vintage Shure, not to mention the respective decks (your TD124 and my KAB-1210) and tonearms (your Fidelity Research and my modified Technics arm)! And that was before I bought the Jelco and DL-103SA ;)

The SL-15 is still to be finalised :)


mind you.. i have just bought £200 worth of different makes of stylus for a very elderly m3d.. and don't regret it at all...
most of my system is from the 60's or before.. maybe the 103 is a little to modern for me..


Love it! :lol:

Marco.

David Price
16-12-2008, 22:10
no - I'm well up for this thread Marco - that's fine. We seem to be getting somewhere now. I'll be back to answer your [a] and [b] when I've got a spare few minutes. Quite excited now, as we're actually talking about hi-fi for a change.

Still p'd off about Noel's TR7 comment though. I am going to turn up to the office in mine the day the new issue comes out! (Assuming it doesn't break down on the way in!)

Spectral Morn
16-12-2008, 22:11
Pax, Pax, Pax.....

I have never heard a Denon DL103 nor a Dynavector or quite a lot of other stuff that people like passionately so I can't enter that aspect of this debate. However I think that enough is enough. Should the writers in any audio magazine or else where be allowed to say they don't like products, music etc, YES. I know we all have things we love and find it hard when others don't share our passion. However I feel that they should be allowed to do so as long as they qualify why and then we agree to differ or re-think what they have shared and perhaps agree or not as the case may be. I for one used to love Steve Hillage and I could not understand why others didn't ,same with Hawkwind. A friend used to wind me up and call Steve Hillage, Steve Sillage and Hawkwind, Falcon Farts. I can now see why this might be so as my passion as waned a bit for these musicians. Same goes for certain audio products I used to like a lot but can now see their flaws. I may still have respect but like a coal out of the fire my love is dull now and not bright.

Being a user of Anthony Gallo ref 3.1's I can't understand how people listen to speakers with wood cabinets as I can hear the Box now when I do. Most listen to this type of speaker and enjoy. Does that mean I feel they are mad and unable to hear,no. I am sure the Gallo's do things others will not like(I can't think what) and I can respect that different opinion.

If I have any criticism it is perhaps that David and Noels critique was ( while I am sure tongue in cheek ) a little to close to being unqualified vilification of the Denon Dl103. This may be the case for new readers but not for old ones who know these writers views even Mr Briggs in his letter says and I quote "(down Dp, Down)". It is obvious that his liking of this cartridge would be countered by David and Noel. I for one prefer straight talking which is a very rare thing in this world and also rare in the printed audio world. However this is just two mens opinion and their experience is different to Marco's and is equally valuable as his opinion. Denon who still make the cart still advertise in HFW and allow other products to be reviewed. If a consensus is that this is a flawed classic that can be made to perform better then so be it. If you like the sound and can forgive the other issues enjoy if not well PAX.

Lets all wind our necks in and not prove anyones pet theories correct by this example (thread).

PAX D S D L ----- Neil :)

Marco
16-12-2008, 22:16
no - I'm well up for this thread Marco - that's fine. We seem to be getting somewhere now. I'll be back to answer your [a] and [b] when I've got a spare few minutes. Quite excited now, as we're actually talking about hi-fi for a change.


Excellent :)

Did everyone see that now? So let's hear no more about "Pax", etc, - no offence, Neil.

This is a perfectly friendly and good-natured discussion. I wouldn't have it any other way!

Marco.

Clive
16-12-2008, 22:23
Somehow it's very difficult to mix journalism with forums. There are all sorts of reasons but I think a lot of it comes down to the rhythm of the 2 media.

Print or e-zines are one-to-many with some limited response via letters. Copy is prepared somewhat in rush but nonetheless relatively at leisure.

Forums are one-to-many but instantly turn into many-to-one. Posts are written on the hoof.

There are expectations of journalists and their predispositions that often won't work in a forum environment.

Sure Noel was harsh and did overstep the mark but at least he has an opinion and will voice it, it adds colour.

David, did you try the 103 with the 1kg weight required on the headshell? :)

Marco, you like the 103 on a 1210. If you don't like Ortofons, maybe a more characterful deck would help redress the balance, at least to some extent anyway. We've discussed this before, I think we agree that it's more a matter of where in the system to place the colour.

Oh yes, David do ask Noel about the last article I had published in HFW DIY Supplement.

SPS
16-12-2008, 22:23
LOL! That's quite funny Steve, if you don't mind me saying, considering that when my A23 SUT was employed there was next to bugger all difference between my 103R and your beloved vintage Shure, not to mention the respective decks (your TD124) and tonearms (your Fidelity Research)! And that was before I bought the Jelco ;)

Marco.


thank's marco..
beloved is a bit of an overstatemet .
unhealthy addiction i'd call it..
the reason i wouldn't buy one marco ... and i have heard a few
its the top end smoothness
i like the tone..
i'm sure denon did not make it to sound that way ( the top end..)

as you say getting it to work is a quite a job, and i'm glad you've gained further improvments since i last heard your set up

i fitted a new stylus, to mine a few weeks ago that made a fantastic difference, Ed and Scott where there for it first play and they had never heard such a difference from the one that you heard.. that had been playing for an hour beforehand
then i bent it...
thats where i really lost the plot..
hence £200 worth of stylus from all over the world..

don't forget the FR had the bluetack and the 25p.. holding it back i would say now

steve

Spectral Morn
16-12-2008, 22:23
None taken.

While typing my reply I see things have moved on at a pace. The dust has settled ....... to be continued.

D S D L ---- Neil :)

Colin
16-12-2008, 22:24
Having read the above about what, where, when and how, I have to say sorry can not remember all the detail. I have used a DL103, tried it in a RB600 and RB200?- Rega badged acos thingy. It's better in the 200 than 600, but for my taste unpleasant in either. You can get it to track acceptably I just found it dark in tone, communactive, but a touch miserable in nature. I would far rather use its little red or blue brothers.

I will go and sit in the dissenters corner for a little while now.

Spectral Morn
16-12-2008, 22:41
Hi Marco

How would a Denon DL 103 sound on an SME 5 arm or a Graham Phantom arm ? I have A Bat vk 10 se phono stage or can use a Chord Coral (the old one with the 4 rca inputs for balanced in) or a Pass Labs X ono or even an EAR pre with built in MM phono stage and an Tim D designed Esoteric Audio Devices Head step up. Turntables an Oracle Delphi mk 4 or an Sme Model 20 mk 1.

I might like to try one. I like VDH carts like the Frog Gold or the MC 10. I have tried Ortofon in the past (Mc 2000), a bit to lean for my tastes. I also have a Lyra Clavis which I like but find hard to get working right, Gain and loading issues. This sounded best years ago with an Audio Innovations S 500 and the EAD head step up. The TT was the Oracle with an Eminent Technology mk 2 arm (sadly I sold this. Neil you twit)

Regards D S D L ---- Neil :)

Marco
16-12-2008, 22:51
Sure Noel was harsh and did overstep the mark but at least he has an opinion and will voice it, it adds colour.


Normally I'd agree; certainly as far as forums go, colour is a good thing. But in a magazine you don't know whom you're putting off from subscribing by making such remarks, and in these hard times I would have thought that HFW need all the readers and subscriptions they can get! Basically, reader 'Nigel' didn't deserve the answer he got from Noel.

It was quite simply the tone Noel used; it read to me like the frustrated ramblings of someone with an axe to grind - basically it was rude and completely humourless, unlike David's earlier riposte which was similarly negative towards the 103, but humorously tongue-in-cheek with it.


Marco, you like the 103 on a 1210. If you don't like Ortofons, maybe a more characterful deck would help redress the balance, at least to some extent anyway. We've discussed this before, I think we agree that it's more a matter of where in the system to place the colour.


You're absolutely right, Clive. But I've got absolutely no intention of tailoring my system to suit cartridges whose inherent sonic presentation I dislike, mind you not as much as a Lyra Dorian, or a Lyra anything, come to think of it! ;)

Marco.

Mr. C
16-12-2008, 22:53
Thank God I do not get into TT debates LOL!

pure sound
16-12-2008, 23:32
I've had a couple of 103's, both of them the original type with the conical stylus. They were used in several different arms with perhaps the best results in an Eminent Technology II and a Mayware Unipivot. It has a full bodied colourful sound with a vigour that many modern cartridges can't match however I think that its too crude an instrument to play my nice old late 50's & early 60's classical music on! The top end response is too coarse for me. Whether its the diamond used or the generator, I don't know. I can understand why people like it, but I'd take a vintage Ortofon every time and even the venerable Goldring 1040 mm with the vdH tip made more sense of string tone & brass. It'd be interesting to hear one of the souped up ones properly though.

Mike
17-12-2008, 00:26
It was quite simply the tone Noel used; it read to me like the frustrated ramblings of someone with an axe to grind - basically it was rude and completely humourless

Well... Here's an idea. Maybe!

Have you considered writing to/emailing Mr Keywood for an explanation rather than asking someone else to answer in his place?

It would seem like the decent thing to do IMHO.

Personally I think you might be being just a bit too 'touchy' about the whole thing. There are plenty of people who have no particular love for the 103, myself included as you know, but it doesn't need to effect the enjoyment of those that are a fan.

Just be happy with what YOU like and try not to take it so personally when others express a, erm, 'alternative opinion' about equipment that you happen to own and enjoy. ;)

Peace...

Will
17-12-2008, 00:49
I agree its good for the money I've also had 2 and on another forum some moved to the spu-SL-15 and called the 103 a tractor.
I used it in a Hadcock and then a 12" home brew Shroeder instead of being limited to the first couple of tracks I was now limited to the LP's that it could handle.
I now have a 70's SL-15 and it does very well with everything thrown at it, so 103 is a TR7:)

shahsy
17-12-2008, 00:57
Hi Marco

How would a Denon DL 103 sound on an SME 5 arm or a Graham Phantom arm ? I have A Bat vk 10 se phono stage or can use a Chord Coral (the old one with the 4 rca inputs for balanced in) or a Pass Labs X ono or even an EAR pre with built in MM phono stage and an Tim D designed Esoteric Audio Devices Head step up. Turntables an Oracle Delphi mk 4 or an Sme Model 20 mk 1.

Regards D Louth ---- Neil :)

1st post, so here goes........

I've been using a Denon 103R in an SME V for while now and I'm very happy with the the combination.:)

The SME V is mounted on an obsidian Technics plinth with an SP-10. I've also used the 103R in a Garrard 401/SME 3012/Loricraft combo with good results.

To get the best out of it you need to do some matching with a good phono pre. With the Technics combo, I have an upgraded WAD valve Pre3/Phono3S pre which they tailored for the impedance/output of the 103R.

Previously (with the Garrard 401/SME 3012), I have used a Denon AU-103 step up which was once sold (in Japan only, I think) with the 103R. This again was specifically made for the 103R. This fed in to a Lehmann Audio Cube SE with good results.

I don't have any inclination to change cartridge as I'm very happy listening to
the music, which is what it's all about, right?

When the 103R's have worn out, I'm think of having them retipped at Expert Stylus.

I won't bore you with amp/speaker bits just yet but they are in keeping with the bits of kit mentioned above.

Cheers

s

Marco
17-12-2008, 09:41
Guy,


I've had a couple of 103's, both of them the original type with the conical stylus. They were used in several different arms with perhaps the best results in an Eminent Technology II and a Mayware Unipivot. It has a full bodied colourful sound with a vigour that many modern cartridges can't match however I think that its too crude an instrument to play my nice old late 50's & early 60's classical music on! The top end response is too coarse for me. Whether its the diamond used or the generator, I don't know. I can understand why people like it, but I'd take a vintage Ortofon every time and even the venerable Goldring 1040 mm with the vdH tip made more sense of string tone & brass. It'd be interesting to hear one of the souped up ones properly though.

There's much truth in what you say, and of course you can only report what your experience has told you. When you heard my KAB-1210 recently, however, I think you were quite impressed, and that was fitted with a DL-103R, but then I've 'gone the extra mile' necessary to get the most from it. The 103R is quite a bit better than a standard 103, but is nowhere near as good as 103Pro, and miles away from a 103SA. I've tried almost every version of the 103, 'souped-up' and otherwise, including in the 80s some of the rarer models such as the 'SL', 'D' and 'M' versions, so I know this cartridge inside out.

Undoubtedly the standard 103 has its limitations, and you've highlighted some of them, but I think you'd be surprised just how much the crudeness and coarseness in the top end you refer to is ameliorated when using one of the better 'souped-up' models, and when the set-up and partnering ancillaries have been optimised down to the nth detail (particularly ensuring there is sufficient mass in the headshell used - the lack of which is largely the cause of the coarseness you describe), although the armtube itself need only be of medium to high mass. This is where the expense and knowledge comes in, and is the key to unlocking its quite considerable magic.

The question I would ask is this: how many people have gone to such lengths and expense, and therefore, *really* know what this cartridge is capable of?

It'll be very interesting to see what system David used last time in which to assess the 103 to have arrived at his current conclusions, particularly what deck he used, which version of the 103 it was, how the cartridge was set-up, what headshell and tonearm were used (this is absolutely crucial), and equally as crucial, what step-up transformer was used, or indeed if one was used at all - all this will show me whether or not he has heard the 103 properly and thus whether his experience is extensive enough to justify his extremely negative views.

It's interesting that you should mention vintage Ortofons. As you know, I've been experimenting with an SL-15 and results have been very promising, although I've yet to hear it at its best. What is quite clear though is that it shares similar traits with the 103 (it's that Alnico magnet thing again) but it had rather more refinement overall, although that was before I got the 103SA, which is very tasty indeed especially in the FR headshell - more on that later! However, I've certainly not heard the SL-15 at its best, but this will be rectified shortly with the arrival of its original matching transformer, so hopefully I'll be able to get to grips with it fully and compare it to the various Denons I have: 103SA, 'R', and Pro. I'll report my findings in due course.

Oh, incidentally, I personally wouldn't touch the Goldring with a bargepole! :nocomment:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
17-12-2008, 10:34
Thank you and welcome to AOS

I was hoping for a bit more info in any reply to my question( specific details). What sort of tracking weight, loading, gain needed and above all which is the best version. to look at getting and from where.

Marco is very caught up in his championing of the Denon, so he has now missed replying to two posts from me in the past days. Not an issue as such but in one case he said that he would and in the other, this one the question was asked of him.

I appreciate your response to my question Shahsy, and that you joined AOS to do so. Maybe you could share some more of your experience and what other bits of kit you use to get the results you get.

I quite like the Goldring MM carts. My first Cartridges were Goldrings used on an Ariston Q deck and then a Void Vadi, with Rega Rb 300 arm. First a Golring 1022 then a 1042 ( styli ) and finally an Eroica on the Valdi. For a quality upgradeable cart the 1000 seriers Goldrings are hard to beat IMHO. You can work your way up the better styli (the body stays the same).

regards D S D L ----- Neil :)

Marco
17-12-2008, 11:00
Mikey,


Personally I think you might be being just a bit too 'touchy' about the whole thing. There are plenty of people who have no particular love for the 103, myself included as you know, but it doesn't need to effect the enjoyment of those that are a fan.

Just be happy with what YOU like and try not to take it so personally when others express a, erm, 'alternative opinion' about equipment that you happen to own and enjoy.


That's not what this is about at all. Please re-read what I wrote earlier on the other thread:


All I'm asking for is some parity. I don't really give a monkey's what Noel thinks of the 103 (I will continue to use and enjoy it regardless), providing his opinion is grounded on sound knowledge and experience, otherwise there's no point in him expressing it in a well-established and respected national hi-fi magazine when his views appear to be based on a large dose of ignorance. Despite how it may seem, I'm not a 103 'fanboy'; I simply seek accuracy and informed comment on the matter so that people whom are less knowledgeable on the subject can make an informed choice and not be put off by someone's (apparently) deeply-ingrained bias.


Note in particular the bit in bold; you must have missed it the last time! ;)

Let me make one thing abundantly clear once and for all, so could everyone please 'listen up' and make sure this penetrates:

I personally don't give a flying toss whether Noel or anyone else likes or dislikes the cartridge I use. *However*, what I most certainly do care about is others not being put off the 103 (which could be exactly what they're looking for) by the heavily biased opinions being expressed in one of the UK's leading hi-fi magazines.

What David and Noel write in HFW, and the advice they give in the letters section, influences readers - of that there is no doubt - therefore it could make the difference between someone achieving satisfaction from their hi-fi system or not. That's why it's so important that they get it right. Regardless of whether one thinks they've got it right or not about the 103 (I personally don't) replying to a reader regarding his cartridge and telling him to "sell that tat" is not professional or in any way constructive advice.

Furthermore, it's always the same old cartridges that are recommended: Ortofon this, Audio Technica that, Goldring the next thing - what if you don't like their analytical style of presentation and seek something more 'wholesome' and 'organic', along the lines of the 103? Noel is as guilty of 'plugging' his beloved Ortofons and Goldrings as I am of the Denon! I think it's about time he started looking more 'outside the box'. The fact is, cartridges, like any other aspect of hi-fi, are not 'one size fits all'. A bit more variety of recommendations would perhaps ensure that David's and Noel's advice covers the needs of a wider audience.

What I'm aiming to achieve from this episode is for David and Noel to (hopefully) take on board my criticism, and bear it in mind in future when readers are writing into the magazine about the 103 - that's all; it's merely advice given with the best of intentions. Hopefully it might ensure that their comments in future don't alienate a proportion of their readership which happen to rate this classic little gem - there are a few of us around you know buying the magazine every month ;)

I've seen the 103 featured most months in the letters section, so it's essential that those writing in about it receive the best advice, and not advice based on 'politics' or ingrained individual bias.

As for writing to Mr Keywood, perhaps I might do that, but he is also welcome to register here just like David has done, and offer his thoughts, where he will be treated with the usual respect given to all our members.

Marco.

Marco
17-12-2008, 11:24
Marco is very caught up in his championing of the Denon, so he has now missed replying to two posts from me in the past days...


Indeed, my apologies Neil. I'll do the best I can to rectify this, but I can't guarantee anything as I have a busy day ahead and will be away for a few days up north from tomorrow.

Thanks for counting, though - it shows you care :) ;)

Shashy,

Welcome to AOS! We'll chat soon.

Marco.

shahsy
17-12-2008, 11:54
Thank you and welcome to AOS

I was hoping for a bit more info in any reply to my question( specific details). What sort of tracking weight, loading, gain needed and above all which is the best version. to look at getting and from where.

I appreciate your response to my question Shahsy, and that you joined AOS to do so. Maybe you could share some more of your experience and what other bits of kit you use to get the results you get.


regards D Louth ----- Neil :)

Hi Neil,
The WAD Phono3S I had built for me by WAD as I am useless at kits. I believe the gain was set at 20:1 and the loading was set at 40 ohms.

According to the 103R manual the loading used should be a minimum of 100 ohms BUT 40 ohms when going in to a transformer.

As far as tracking weight goes, I am using 2.5g's. I did find that a bit of lead cut to the shape of the cartridge spacer that's needed with the SME V between the cartridge and the headshell made the sound richer.

The bit of lead in the headshell also helped things along with the SME 3012 when I was using that.

I went the whole hog later and got the WAD Pre3 XL but found that the usable range on the volume control was about 1cm. WAD then attenuated the Pre so I could have a more useable range of volume adjustment.

The kit being used with this is a Musical Fidelity A5CR power amp and some Tannoy DMT15's. The Tannoys being on the sensitive side (98db/1W@1M) obviously contributed to why so little of the volume control range was usable.

What I've ended up with is valve sweetness with effortless solid state grunt.

Anyway, 'hope this answers some of your questions and just to reiterate, I am very happy with the results and haven't found the need to 'experiment'.

Cheers

s

bong
17-12-2008, 13:13
Since this IS turning into quite the 103 tribute thread ... :lolsign:

I'll let pictures do the talking for something that happened last week ...

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/konglip/dead1.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/konglip/dead2.jpg

Is there any recourse? or is a new cart inevitable? :confused:

Marco
17-12-2008, 13:22
Try some Sellotape?

No, more seriously, it's a new cartridge I'm afraid Kelvin :(

Who's your nearest Denon dealer? Normally there is an exchange price available, which is about 20% off the cost of a new cartridge. All you do is send your damaged one off and the dealer orders a new one for you at the discounted price. Denon recycle the damaged item.

I can recommend a few who operate this policy, but unfortunately they're all in the UK.

Marco.

NRG
17-12-2008, 13:23
No that's dead, time to buy a Goldring... ;)

Marco
17-12-2008, 13:26
Hehe...not forgetting the Anadin :eyebrows:

Marco.

bong
17-12-2008, 14:12
Try some Sellotape?

No, more seriously, it's a new cartridge I'm afraid Kelvin :(

heh .. no worries. that's pretty much what i expected. that's taught me to be really focused when anywhere near my TT. the bent cantilever was the result of an unfortunate accident when I was being a bit too enthusiastic about trying to clean my stylus with a Zerodust.



Who's your nearest Denon dealer? Normally there is an exchange price available, which is about 20% off the cost of a new cartridge. All you do is send your damaged one off and the dealer orders a new one for you at the discounted price. Denon recycle the damaged item.

I can recommend a few who operate this policy, but unfortunately they're all in the UK.

Marco.

thanks for the offer, but I bought this cartridge during an earlier trip to tokyo. also, Denon here doesn't bring in any turntables or its associated accessories; we're considered quite a small market for TTs. Most if not all of the Denon carts here are imported.

bong
17-12-2008, 14:16
No that's dead, time to buy a Goldring... ;)

well, i guessed as much that it's dead. but i also got quite a good deal on the 103R on the same trip to Tokyo, so it's as good a time as any to give the new cart a go. But I invested in Doc Feickert's alignment tool, and figured that the 103s weren't getting a proper fit on the stock technics headshell, so I put in an order for the lpgear zupreme. while this was happening, I had brass counterweights and a couple of mats coming in that I could experiment with on my table too ...

all I can say was that the wait seemed a lot longer that it probably was ... :lol:

Marco
17-12-2008, 14:35
but i also got quite a good deal on the 103R on the same trip to Tokyo, so it's as good a time as any to give the new cart a go.


Be more bloody careful this time with this one, then! ;)

Good luck, and keep us posted on how it sounds when everything is up and running :)

Marco.

bong
17-12-2008, 15:02
Be more bloody careful this time with this one, then! ;)

Good luck, and keep us posted on how it sounds when everything is up and running :)

Marco.

definitely! live and learn ... i must say. well, i do have a AT33PTG waiting in the wings, but that's no bloody excuse for me to wreck another cart just to get to it! :lol:

anyway, the zupreme headshell, counterweights and mats all arrived in the last couple of days, and I finally had sometime yesterday to fix everything up. which led to a couple of questions ..

1) i was using feickert's to align the cart, and after setting the pivot to spindle length of 215mm, i used the baerwald null points to align the cart properly. after sorting that out, i got curious and flipped over the disc to the lofgren null points, and found that it was perfectly aligned for those points as well. i never quite understood the difference between the two sets of points, but i recall reading that they were at different distances, therefore I assume that to get from one to the other, I would need to at least change something. Am I doing something wrong in the setup?

2) also, I'm now using the zupreme headshell and it gives a nice solid build to the headshell/cart combo. however, to achieve the 2.5g vtf, i've had to move the bigger CW quite far back to balance, and the smaller piece is not used at all. i guess the only way that both pieces will be in action at the same time is for a vtf of 2 or less. would this be correct?

well, enough with the questions .. i'm currently running in the cart, and will hopefully be able to give some impressions of the 103R, together with experiments with the mats soon. it already sounds quite good out of the box, and i can't wait to give it about 20-30hrs.

here's some pictures of the setup as it stands ...


the 103R/zupreme combo. sweet! :eyebrows:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/konglip/103R.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/konglip/103R_avatar.jpg

the complete tonearm with CW
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/konglip/armwcw.jpg

and finally, the obligatory low light TT porn shot ... :lol:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/konglip/dark_deck.jpg

Marco
17-12-2008, 15:41
Great pics, Kelvin! :smoking:

I don't really have the time to reply in detail in the moment, but one thing strikes me straight away... Which cartridge alignment tool did you use? It looks like you've got the cartridge much too forward in the headshell. From experience, I can tell that it's not right.

Try moving the cartridge back until, when looking down at it from the top of the headshell the cartridge overlaps the front of the headshell by about 1mm. Without an alignment protractor you won't get this spot on, but that's roughly where the 103 should be positioned in the headshell when used on the Technics arm.

Try that and see if it sounds any better :)

Marco.

bong
17-12-2008, 16:20
Great pics, Kelvin! :smoking:

I don't really have the time to reply in detail in the moment, but one thing strikes me straight away... Which cartridge alignment tool did you use? It looks like you've got the cartridge much too forward in the headshell. From experience, I can tell that it's not right.


This (http://www.feickert.de/engl/schablone_handling.html) is what i'm using for alignment. I used the same tool, with the baerwald null points to align my earlier 103, and that's where i found the technics headshell to be deficient, as the 103 needed to be a lot more forward than the headshell could allow.



Try moving the cartridge back until, when looking down at it from the top of the headshell the cartridge overlaps the front of the headshell by about 1mm. Without an alignment protractor you won't get this spot on, but that's roughly where the 103 should be positioned in the headshell when used on the Technics arm.

Try that and see if it sounds any better :)

Marco.

the 1mm overlap that you've recommended would correspond roughly to the 52mm overhang that the technics overhang tool would give. however, i've found this to be a bit inaccurate for alignment purposes, so I'm using the protractor above. i've tried setting up a cart with the technics tool and the protractor, and the setup via protractor sounds a LOT better. :p

Marco
17-12-2008, 16:27
Interesting. I've got various types of protractors but I've never ended up with the cartridge in that position using the technics arm... Anyway as long as it sounds good that's the main thing! :cool:

Marco.

Marco
17-12-2008, 16:54
I'll be back to answer your [a] and [b] when I've got a spare few minutes.


Come on, David, have you not made something up yet that sounds plausible? :ner:

;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
17-12-2008, 19:04
no - I'm well up for this thread Marco - that's fine. We seem to be getting somewhere now. I'll be back to answer your [a] and [b] when I've got a spare few minutes. Quite excited now, as we're actually talking about hi-fi for a change.

Still p'd off about Noel's TR7 comment though. I am going to turn up to the office in mine the day the new issue comes out! (Assuming it doesn't break down on the way in!)

hi david,
cant comment on the Denon, [never had one ] but i remember the first time i got into a TR7 i was amazed at how high the sills were, and how difficult it must be for a lady to exit one with her dignity intact!
:lolsign:

Marco
17-12-2008, 19:12
Why would that worry you, boyo? The sheep you date down in the valleys would hurdle it no problem! :lol:

Marco.

anthonyTD
17-12-2008, 19:28
Why would that worry you, boyo? The sheep you date down in the valleys would hurdle it no problem! :lol:

Marco.

steady on there denon boy!
or next time you visit i'l get billy to give you a good sheering!:lolsign:

Marco
17-12-2008, 19:48
Oh no, not the infamous 'bil-ee special' - a short 'n' up the backside! :eek:

Marco.

anthonyTD
17-12-2008, 19:51
Oh no, not the infamous 'bil-ee special' - a short 'n' up the backside! :eek:

Marco.
:lolsign:

anthonyTD
17-12-2008, 19:57
anyway,
while marco's away, any body had experience with the audio tecnica 440ML.
A....

Steve Toy
17-12-2008, 20:07
Lets have a MM versus MC debate in Marco's absence. ;)

anthonyTD
17-12-2008, 20:09
now theres an idea...
A...;)

Marco
17-12-2008, 20:31
How about getting his phono stage to work first in any capacity! :ner:

Marco.

anthonyTD
17-12-2008, 20:42
How about getting his phono stage to work first in any capacity! :ner:

Marco.
how rude,,,
it is working, he just needs a ceramic cartridge!!!
:lolsign:

Marco
17-12-2008, 21:03
Never mind a ceramic cartridge - he just needs ANY cartridge! Not to mention, a turntable, oh and some records... I guess those would come in handy :eyebrows:

Marco.

anthonyTD
17-12-2008, 21:13
Never mind a ceramic cartridge - he just needs ANY cartridge! Not to mention, a turntable, oh and some records... I guess those would come in handy :eyebrows:

Marco.

good point!
i think you should lend him your turntable and a couple of your depeche mode albums, he can practice his sctratching technics,go on, it'l be alright that ole denon is as "Tough As Titanium" ...:eyebrows:
:lolsign:

Marco
17-12-2008, 21:35
Hehehe... I just LOVE Noel Keywood, but I couldn't manage him whole, all at once :eyebrows:

Marco.

anthonyTD
17-12-2008, 21:41
:lolsign:
ANYWAY,
we've had our bit of leg pulling, its back to the guys who have something constructive to say on this thread.
anthony,TD.:)

Marco
17-12-2008, 21:49
Indeed. I'm just waiting patiently for David to offer me his pearls of wisdom :)

Marco.

pure sound
17-12-2008, 22:11
Listened to a 103R today on a Luxman PD555 with a 'weighted' Wilson Benesch arm via 3 different transformers. Certainly better than the 103 as I recall it but still not as secure on strings & big piano chords as I'd like. It is preferable to many of the rather clinical & anodyne sounding modern cartridges that can be bought but while its fuller & fruitier balance is quite attractive it does lack for precision in the bass & some finesse elsewhere. It glosses over some things too. I'm sure there'd be mileage in improving the structural integrity of the bodyshell but the magnet circuit probably needs to be mounted in something more substantial too.

Of course that starts to cost & isn't what these cartridges are really about.

Marco
17-12-2008, 23:28
Nice one, Guy. I'm glad you've heard one now on two decent systems ;)

I can't comment on what you heard though because I've never listened to a 103R in that context.

When you say "weighted", do you know how much exactly? You're talking ideally 20g on the headshell for optimum performance. This is what I've got now with the Fidelity Research S/5. If it was anything less than that there would still have been some evidence of the coarseness you referred to earlier, probably manifesting itself this time as the lack of "security" you mentioned with some types of music.

Also VTF is optimal when set at 2.7g, not the 2.5g that many people use.


It is preferable to many of the rather clinical & anodyne sounding modern cartridges that can be bought...


I agree, and it's precisely what I don't like about the majority of modern cartridges - they just lack 'soul' and make records sound as sterile as some CDs. If I wanted that type of presentation I'd have bought one of the many 'high-end' CD players on the market now and forgot about vinyl altogether.


...but while its fuller & fruitier balance is quite attractive it does lack for precision in the bass & some finesse elsewhere. It glosses over some things too.


The above weaknesses are addressed by optimally matched transformers and the use of a high quality valve MM stage (like your P10 ;)). I'm not sure which type of transformers were used when you heard the 103R today but I've yet to hear any better than the Haufe ones in the Auditorium 23 SUT. Achieving the optimal loading value for cartridges is often underestimated and absolutely crucial for the full potential of the 103 to be realised - it really does open out the sound quite remarkably at both ends of the frequency range. The A23 is particularly good at making the 103's top end sound sweeter, more extended, and adding overall finesse. Unless optimally matched transformers are used you will only hear a fraction of its true potential, of course the same is also true of any other cartridge.

That's one of the reasons why using transformers with MC cartridges gives better performance than with active MC stages (that and much lower noise) because one can apply a specific ideal loading value to a cartridge, which normally falls out with the range of the selectable dip switches used on most commercial active designs, or indeed those that only offer the one setting! There simply isn't enough flexibility available on your average commercial active phono stage to 'tune' cartridge loading and optimise it accordingly, as the 'sweet spot' invariably falls somewhere in between the available settings. Most people using such designs will probably find that the setting they've applied is perhaps only delivering 80% of their cartridge's full potential! As far as the 103 is concerned, those who have judged it using an active phono stage, or the wrong transformer, will quite simply not have heard it properly.


I'm sure there'd be mileage in improving the structural integrity of the bodyshell but the magnet circuit probably needs to be mounted in something more substantial too.


I'm not sure about the mounting of the magnet circuit, but the 103SA has a glass fibre composite epoxy shell and 6N OFC wiring, also used in the 103R. I'm sure that part of the leap in performance I noticed changing from the 'R' or 'Pro' to the SA was due to the improved resonance characteristics and structural integrity of the SA's superior quality shell. Furthermore, the SA's are made to closer tolerances in critical areas of the circuit, so this is what makes it better than any other DL-103 currently on the market. I've also heard the ZU-modified version of the 103, which is excellent, but in my opinion the SA is better still and *the* one to have.


Of course that starts to cost & isn't what these cartridges are really about.


I know where you're coming from but I don't necessarily agree. I see the 103 more as an enthusiasts device than a 'cheap and cheerful' cartridge for the masses, and therefore ripe for tweaking and optimising to extract the most from it. But, as you rightly say, that costs. However, in my opinion, the likes of the 103SA when properly partnered and set-up is as good or if not better than any cartridge I've heard at around £2k. The SA is only £445, and it doesn't cost over £1500 to optimise it. I've heard Lyras and Dynavectors at that sort of price which don't have anything like the same musical qualities.

It's just a pity that most modern MC cartridges now don't have that lovely 'tone' and harmonic richness the classic ones had. Most MC cartridges these days are voiced in a way which prioritises analysis and detail retrieval at the expense of 'musicality' and a more 'luxurious' tonal balance which IMO is more faithful to the sound of real voices and instruments. I think cartridge manufacturers nowadays have lost their way somewhere. When you hear how good the Ortofon SL-15 is, for example, it makes you wonder why they moved from that type of sound to what their current models produce, which is almost the complete antithesis.

Do you have any idea what the catalyst was for the significant 'tonal shift' between how the best classic MC cartridges sounded and the di rigeur presentation favoured by most manufacturers nowadays? Surely with the technology available now one could have the best of both worlds, instead of some of the 'chrome-plated', soulless, anaemic sounding crap foisted upon us? :confused:

Marco.

bong
17-12-2008, 23:58
Also VTF is optimal when set at 2.7g, not the 2.5g that many people use.


interesting comment. i'll be sure to give it a try later to see if 2.7 is indeed optimal. does this apply to the other 103s that you've heard as well?

Marco
18-12-2008, 00:04
Yup :)

I find at 2.7g everything 'clicks into focus', with the ideal balance between good bass weight and top end clarity. Also, difficult recordings are handled more securely and with greater 'authority'.

Oh, and on the Technics arm, set the anti-skate to just a fraction under '3'.

Marco.

bong
18-12-2008, 01:16
cool. will give it a try later and see how it goes.

also, my kab deck is finally done, and should be shipping out very soon. let's hope i can get it in by christmas! :)

Marco
18-12-2008, 07:51
Here's hoping, Kelvin! :)

Another little tip - have you tried removing the little rubber washer fixed to the back of the bayonet fitting of the headshell? I've found that doing so gives better coupling to the armtube and results in improved detail retrieval and 'focus'.

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
18-12-2008, 08:36
But I invested in Doc Feickert's alignment tool, and figured that the 103s weren't getting a proper fit on the stock technics headshell, so I put in an order for the lpgear zupreme. while this was happening, I had brass counterweights and a couple of mats coming in that I could experiment with on my table too ...

Kelvin,

I have the Feickart thingy and an SL1210. In my view, the Feickert guage is useless with a Technics tonearm, because the alignment is "Stevenson", which is similiar to the "rega" alignment.

Essentially, the Stevenson arrangement is optimised for LPs with longer playing sides. I can't remember the exact radii, but Stevenson is good down to inner groove radius of 60mm, whilst Lofgrin & bauerwald are more like 66mm.

OTOH, if you only listen to classic jazz and classical recordings, with only 15 -> 20 mins a side, the Lofgrin and Bauerwald would most likely be fine. I reverted to Stevenson, more or less, but you can, in effect have you own "custom" alignment, You just choose where you want your null tracking error points to be. With a pivoted arm, there is no "correct" alignment.

Anyway my Feickart guage is waiting for me to sell it to an interested party.

cheers

pure sound
18-12-2008, 08:42
Do you have any idea what the catalyst was for the significant 'tonal shift' between how the best classic MC cartridges sounded and the di rigeur presentation favoured by most manufacturers nowadays? Surely with the technology available now one could have the best of both worlds, instead of some of the 'chrome-plated', soulless, anaemic sounding crap foisted upon us? :confused:


An interesting question. I do wonder whether it was something to do with trying to get records to sound 'pristine' like CD sometimes does. The usual 'chasing the specs' bollox!

Mike
18-12-2008, 08:42
Anyway my Feickart guage is waiting for me to sell it to an interested party.

Interested party sitting right here! :)

Clive
18-12-2008, 09:06
Did the Feickart gauge give correct overhang? This for me is what the Feickart does best, along with rapid setup. Checking many peoples' TTs I've been horrified to find the no one I checked had the correct overhang. This is not surprising as these guys had simply setup via 2 null point protractos. The chances of getting overhang correct by this method is remote. I'll shutup now as this this OT.

Marco
18-12-2008, 09:35
An interesting question. I do wonder whether it was something to do with trying to get records to sound 'pristine' like CD sometimes does. The usual 'chasing the specs' bollox!


Indeed. It's all wrong, wrong, wrong...! :(

Those who judge hi-fi equipment of any description solely (or mostly) on that basis, not just cartridges, will always ultimately miss the musical message. That's why I laugh when I see the word "accurate" applied to this, that and the next thing. We seem to have been 'conditioned' to accept that a brighter, more forward, sound is consequently the most accurate when in reality that is far from always being the case.

I mean, accurate to what I wonder? How an oscilloscope or some inanimate piece of test equipment reads music signals, or the human ear and brain? Both are rather different!! I sometimes wonder if manufacturers who design their products on those principles are catering for human beings or robots...

Marco.

bong
18-12-2008, 10:31
Here's hoping, Kelvin! :)

Another little tip - have you tried removing the little rubber washer fixed to the back of the bayonet fitting of the headshell? I've found that doing so gives better coupling to the armtube and results in improved detail retrieval and 'focus'.

Marco.

i haven't yet. i've tried removing it previously from the stock technics headshell and i agree that there was definitely an improvement in focus. let's hope it'll bring the same to the zupreme. the rubber washer feels stiffer on the zupreme compared to the one on the stock; i wonder how removing it will affect the sound.

Peter Stockwell
18-12-2008, 10:41
Did the Feickart gauge give correct overhang? This for me is what the Feickart does best, along with rapid setup. Checking many peoples' TTs I've been horrified to find the no one I checked had the correct overhang. This is not surprising as these guys had simply setup via 2 null point protractos. The chances of getting overhang correct by this method is remote. I'll shutup now as this this OT.

Yes it does, but only for Bauerwald and Lofgrin. It's abeautiful piece of kit, really easy to use. Just no use for Technics SL1210 with a standard arm, IMO.

bong
18-12-2008, 10:43
Kelvin,

I have the Feickart thingy and an SL1210. In my view, the Feickert guage is useless with a Technics tonearm, because the alignment is "Stevenson", which is similiar to the "rega" alignment.

i might be wrong on this, but from what i understand, the feickart is tonearm neutral, as in it can be applied to any tonearm within the pivot to spindle lengths that it can accommodate. it's just that it offers the baerwald and lofgren null points, while the technics overhang tool offers a stevenson null points. so it's more a choice of the user which set of points to use and which will sound better to him, rather than that the gauge is 'useless' with the technics arm. the arm doesn't choose the gauge, nor vice versa. the user does. :smoking:



Essentially, the Stevenson arrangement is optimised for LPs with longer playing sides. I can't remember the exact radii, but Stevenson is good down to inner groove radius of 60mm, whilst Lofgrin & bauerwald are more like 66mm.

i took the following from feickert's website (http://www.feickert.de/engl/schablone_handling.html), where he listed instructions for the gauge.


The major goal was to find a tracking geometry that suits LPs in a perfect way. Out of a 100 records we checked the inner and outer radii and found out that the IEC recommendations of 60,325 and 146,05 mm were matched well by the large majority of records determined. After Løfgren’s equations this results in 70,2 and 116,6 mm for the Null points and a linear offset of 93,445 mm.
Older records dated back in the late 50s and early 60s sometimes have recorded grooves at down to 56 mm! Taking this into account we have calculated a second set of parameters and printed another template on the backside.

from what it claims, the lofgren null points provide for the majority of current or 'modern' records, while the points on the opposite side, the baerwald points, cater for older recordings from the 50s and 60s which cut a lot closer to the label, even down to 56mm. so i would believe that most records around today are catered for. my earlier question actually was that once i set my overhang, the arm seemed to fit into all 4 null points, while i know that the 2 sets of null points should be different in measurement. :scratch:




OTOH, if you only listen to classic jazz and classical recordings, with only 15 -> 20 mins a side, the Lofgrin and Bauerwald would most likely be fine. I reverted to Stevenson, more or less, but you can, in effect have you own "custom" alignment, You just choose where you want your null tracking error points to be. With a pivoted arm, there is no "correct" alignment.


most, if not all of my LPs are pressed in the 50s and 60s; all classical jazz and vocals, but some of them really do cut it even just 1/2 a centimeter away from the label. so while they might be about 20mins a side, the grooves still take up pretty much the entire surface. also, perhaps there's no 'correct' alignment, but i believe that there should be an 'optimal' one. :eyebrows:

bong
18-12-2008, 10:48
Did the Feickart gauge give correct overhang? This for me is what the Feickart does best, along with rapid setup. Checking many peoples' TTs I've been horrified to find the no one I checked had the correct overhang. This is not surprising as these guys had simply setup via 2 null point protractos. The chances of getting overhang correct by this method is remote. I'll shutup now as this this OT.

hi clive,

this was the same huge revelation I had when i used the feickart gauge on my cart. the overhang that feickart recommended meant that the 103s could and should never be used with the stock technics headshell. the cart simply had to sit so far forward in the headshell, that the technics shell ran out of grooves for it. i know of people who took to filing the slots all the way to the edges to accommodate the 103, but i took the lazy way out and ordered the zupreme. ;) i also agree that most people would setup with 2 null point protractors, but overlook the overhang; well, this observation based on the discussion on my local forums anyway.

Peter Stockwell
18-12-2008, 11:39
i might be wrong on this, but from what i understand, the feickart is tonearm neutral, as in it can be applied to any tonearm within the pivot to spindle lengths that it can accommodate. it's just that it offers the baerwald and lofgren null points, while the technics overhang tool offers a stevenson null points. so it's more a choice of the user which set of points to use and which will sound better to him, rather than that the gauge is 'useless' with the technics arm. the arm doesn't choose the gauge, nor vice versa. the user does. :smoking:

Kelvin,

Sorry, you're right. I expressed myself in an absolutist way. When I used the Feickert guage, I found the cartridge too far forward in the headshell. I now just use the Technics guage, and then check alignment with a Db systems protracter I've had for years.

cheers

muffinman
18-12-2008, 13:12
It might be fairly cheap to buy, Kevin, but it takes a fair bit of expense (in terms of optimising its performance with the appropriate ancillaries) to hear it at its *absolute* best. I've spent £1000s doing just that to get the (quite incredible) results I've obtained :)

However, even simply slapped on any available T/T or tonearm I'd rather listen to it than some, bland, soulless, non-descript modern Ortofon!!

Marco.

i use an ortofon samba on my blinged 12

i'll get me coat...

pure sound
18-12-2008, 13:41
Nice one, Guy. I'm glad you've heard one now on two decent systems ;)

When you say "weighted", do you know how much exactly? You're talking ideally 20g on the headshell for optimum performance.

Actually I imagine the amount needed would depend on the effective mass of the particular arm in use

The above weaknesses are addressed by optimally matched transformers and the use of a high quality valve MM stage (like your P10 ;)). I'm not sure which type of transformers were used when you heard the 103R today but I've yet to hear any better than the Haufe ones in the Auditorium 23 SUT.

The cartridge was used with my own T10, the old Audio Innovations T2 and another transformer using some Sowter units (less good). It was via a P10 and A30.


I'm not sure about the mounting of the magnet circuit, but the 103SA has a glass fibre composite epoxy shell and 6N OFC wiring, also used in the 103R. I'm sure that part of the leap in performance I noticed changing from the 'R' or 'Pro' to the SA was due to the improved resonance characteristics and structural integrity of the SA's superior quality shell.

Structural integrity is hugely important in cartridges, as is plugging air pockets within the cartridge body and dressing the lead out wires properly away from the coils & former.

However, in my opinion, the likes of the 103SA when properly partnered and set-up is as good or if not better than any cartridge I've heard at around £2k. The SA is only £445, and it doesn't cost over £1500 to optimise it. I've heard Lyras and Dynavectors at that sort of price which don't have anything like the same musical qualities.

It'd be interesting to compare it with the current SPU Royal N or for that matter one of the modern but quite enjoyable sounding Shelters such as 901. I don't think the 'R' is as good a cartridge as either of those but it is a deal cheaper too.
I'd agree about Lyra's and Dynavectors but the Shelter is certainly colourful.



An interesting thread here about the 103, its variants, mass loading, electrical loading etc. I wouldn't agree with all of it but some good points are raised.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=46#46

bong
18-12-2008, 15:57
i use an ortofon samba on my blinged 12

i'll get me coat...

that's one cart that i've been hearing good things about .. here it's about the same price as the 103R. will probably give it a go soon, to see how the 3 carts at the same range, the samba/103R/AT33PTG compare. :)

bong
18-12-2008, 15:58
Kelvin,

Sorry, you're right. I expressed myself in an absolutist way. When I used the Feickert guage, I found the cartridge too far forward in the headshell. I now just use the Technics guage, and then check alignment with a Db systems protracter I've had for years.

cheers

Peter,

No worries. I was just trying to make sure that it wasn't absolute, as I'm quite an analogue newbie myself. always refreshing to see new points of view being shared. :eyebrows:

Togil
20-12-2008, 09:47
An interesting thread here about the 103, its variants, mass loading, electrical loading etc. I wouldn't agree with all of it but some good points are raised.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=46#46

I especially like the term " Audiolumpenproletariat " ha ha :lol:

Beechwoods
20-12-2008, 10:05
I'm proud to be a member of the audiolumpenproletariat :)

niklasthedolphin
20-12-2008, 10:13
The Denon DL 103 is just a entry level / low end cartrige suiting the Technics 1210 entry level / low end TT very well.

"dolph"

Togil
20-12-2008, 12:24
The Denon DL 103 is just a entry level / low end cartrige suiting the Technics 1210 entry level / low end TT very well.

"dolph"

I don't play vinyl and have only ever heard one system at great length, some 20 years ago : an Oxford Crystal turntable with a Koetsu cartridge. Played through AR SP11 , Krell KMA 100 monoblocks and Quad ESL 63s. Wonderful sound.

How would the Oxford/Koetsu compare with the Technics/Denon setup ?

Spectral Morn
20-12-2008, 12:54
Wow!

The Oxford Crystal ref was one of those TT that left a massive sonic memory in my mind too. Stunning looks and a weight, scale and stability of sound that only the original NAS Mentor Reference had (same time period). I would love to hear one again or even buy one (not made any more).

I haven't heard the TT and cart you ask how the Oxford would sound against but I would be shocked if they were as good. Sorry but the Oxford was IMHO very special.

regards D Louth 77 :)

muffinman
20-12-2008, 14:35
The Denon DL 103 is just a entry level / low end cartrige suiting the Technics 1210 entry level / low end TT very well.

"dolph"

do us a favour rolph
if you're making a joke, please add a :lolsign: or similar
otherwise i'll be forced to start slagging items of yours that you have worked hard to pay for
:lolsign:(not)

Beechwoods
20-12-2008, 14:52
do us a favour rolph

'Rolph' :lol: that's got to be worth a lolsign in itself!

niklasthedolphin
20-12-2008, 19:54
do us a favour rolph
if you're making a joke, please add a :lolsign: or similar
otherwise i'll be forced to start slagging items of yours that you have worked hard to pay for
:lolsign:(not)


Well...............duffinman................I deliberately left out the :lolsign:.

I'm DEAD serious about 103/1210.
Sorry mate.

"DOLPH"

P.S.: Try to spell my name correct. Those hidden insults can be so escalating.

DSJR
20-12-2008, 19:57
I was going to stay out of this one, but the mentor was a damn fine turntable IMO - Why did I sell mine? Ah, I remember - financial as usual...........

muffinman
20-12-2008, 20:21
Hi Dolph,
i've never heard a 103 so i'm not going to extol its virtues and start talking about something i know jack about.
i also don't think the 1200 is the second coming. however i've chosen my modified version over my former tts - an lp12 and my orbe/evo arm.
i've based this on its ability to play a variety of music to a higher standard than my previous decks, its ease of use and relative compactness - all in one ability if you will.
imo this places it outside the tag of 'entry level'
if you class orbes and lp12s as entry level then i suppose you have a valid point

niklasthedolphin
20-12-2008, 20:29
Hi Dolph,
i've never heard a 103 so i'm not going to extol its virtues and start talking about something i know jack about.
i also don't think the 1200 is the second coming. however i've chosen my modified version over my former tts - an lp12 and my orbe/evo arm.
i've based this on its ability to play a variety of music to a higher standard than my previous decks, its ease of use and relative compactness - all in one ability if you will.
imo this places it outside the tag of 'entry level'
if you class orbes and lp12s as entry level then i suppose you have a valid point

I can make any LP12 kick the ass of any 1210.
Modified or not as long as I have free hands to allign and adjust.
Well, you made your choise. I can only wonder what weird eqipment made you make that choise?

"DOLPH"

muffinman
20-12-2008, 20:35
I can make any LP12 kick the ass of any 1210

"DOLPH"

it still wont have a pop up cueing light though :ner:




ps:lolsign:

bong
20-12-2008, 23:54
Well, you made your choise. I can only wonder what weird eqipment made you make that choise?

"DOLPH"

hi dolph,

i don't quite understand why the equipment had to be weird for that choice to be made?

niklasthedolphin
20-12-2008, 23:56
hi dolph,

i don't quite understand why the equipment had to be weird for that choice to be made?


Then read my posts again and then maybe you will understand the point of view.

"dolph"

bong
21-12-2008, 00:12
Then read my posts again and then maybe you will understand the point of view.

"dolph"

i understand your request to know the rest of the equipment used for muffinman to decide on the 1200 over the LP12. but what i am curious about is the judgment that it had to be weird for that choice to be made, before even knowing what it is.

without him replying yet, i would venture a guess that one very important, if not most important, 'equipment' involved would be his ears.

niklasthedolphin
21-12-2008, 00:23
i understand your request to know the rest of the equipment used for muffinman to decide on the 1200 over the LP12. but what i am curious about is the judgment that it had to be weird for that choice to be made, before even knowing what it is.

without him replying yet, i would venture a guess that one very important, if not most important, 'equipment' involved would be his ears.

I'm not requesting anything.

I know very well those TT's involved in the debate, as do I know the cartridges.
Don't care about the rest because I have had a fair amount of chances to listen to these on several combo's of "the best" equipment.

I couldn't care less about what was behind these odd choises.

Anyway.............Merry Christmas and happy New Year.
Keep the music in focus.

"dolph"

jandl100
21-12-2008, 09:03
(the Ortofon Samba's) one cart that i've been hearing good things about .. here it's about the same price as the 103R. will probably give it a go soon, to see how the 3 carts at the same range, the samba/103R/AT33PTG compare. :)

I've a standard Denon 103, an Ortofon Samba and a Dynavector XX1L.

Needless to say (?) I prefer the DV, but just considering the other two, they give very different presenatations in my Pioneer DD tt.

The Ortofon seems obviously (to me :)) tailored to sound like the traditional view of mid-priced CDPs ... detailed, but a bit forward and 'forced' sounding. A bit clinical.

The Denon 103 seems a much more typically analog/musical device. Warmer, richer tonality. Strangely it also seems to track worn 2nd hand records better - maybe the wear was caused by fancier profiled styli and the Denons spherical tip can't reach down that far!

Oh - & I just sold the Ortofon Samba - I'm keeping the 103 as my spare. ;)

niklasthedolphin
21-12-2008, 11:37
My opinion on the DL 103:

It is a bad tracker.
Pro version has improved this.
It cooperates very bad in light arms.
It has very narrow soundstage.
The transmission of great classical orchestra works is one big mess.
It's overdoing attacks.
A few good points:
Price
It's alive and dynamic.

"dolph"

Togil
21-12-2008, 11:52
My opinion on the DL 103:

It is a bad tracker.

The transmission of great classical orchestra works is one big mess.


"dolph"

Interesting, this is confirmed by comments on the Clearaudio website ( who have made modifications, both cheap and expensive ) : the DL 103 is ok for pop and rock but unsuitable for classical music

bong
21-12-2008, 15:15
I've a standard Denon 103, an Ortofon Samba and a Dynavector XX1L.

Needless to say (?) I prefer the DV, but just considering the other two, they give very different presenatations in my Pioneer DD tt.

The Ortofon seems obviously (to me :)) tailored to sound like the traditional view of mid-priced CDPs ... detailed, but a bit forward and 'forced' sounding. A bit clinical.

The Denon 103 seems a much more typically analog/musical device. Warmer, richer tonality. Strangely it also seems to track worn 2nd hand records better - maybe the wear was caused by fancier profiled styli and the Denons spherical tip can't reach down that far!

Oh - & I just sold the Ortofon Samba - I'm keeping the 103 as my spare. ;)

interesting. thanks for the comments. DV is one of the brands too on my 'to try' radar, but let me just get through my current lot of carts first. ;)

niklasthedolphin
21-12-2008, 16:26
Interesting, this is confirmed by comments on the Clearaudio website ( who have made modifications, both cheap and expensive ) : the DL 103 is ok for pop and rock but unsuitable for classical music

Very interesting that ClearAudio ever was able to determine the weak points of any cartridge.
One could ask: "Did ClearAudio ever make a TT capable of playing beyond a sound of how most people imagine a "waiting room at the dentist"?
;-)

"dolph"

Togil
21-12-2008, 16:33
Ha ha, their TTs are more for the eye

Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 16:43
Have you tried one?

Colin
21-12-2008, 16:55
why would a bridge dweller want to try anything,

muffinman
21-12-2008, 17:05
Have you tried one?

if i may use an 'outside a pub at closing time' analogy - leave it dave, it ain't worth it :)

Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 17:16
I think you are right muffinman! It does remind me of another thread, and well, you know?

Dave

jandl100
21-12-2008, 18:36
the DL 103 is ok for pop and rock but unsuitable for classical music

:scratch: err ... you what?

Not in my book, it isn't! :lol: the 103 has a wonderful rich tonality that does classical very nicely, thanks!

You really have to remember that you can buy these for £90 delivered in the UK! Sure you can get better carts and/or easier ones to get the best out of - but for £90 I cannot think of another cart I would rather use on classical.

anubisgrau
21-12-2008, 18:55
You really have to remember that you can buy these for £90 delivered in the UK!

where?

jandl100
21-12-2008, 19:00
Harrow Audio - that's where I got mine a few weeks back. Next day delivery, too. Great service - although the website didn't work properly, so I phoned them up. Very friendly and helpful. 10/10.

http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/viewitem.asp?MyID=&StockCode=h91de104

snapper
21-12-2008, 19:06
You could also try here

http://www.hifix.co.uk/sku.lasso?DENON-DL103&item=d01c2aae62a6ecd8233c92979ea53f7e

Mike
21-12-2008, 19:27
Oi!.... thats where I usually recommend! :steam:

niklasthedolphin
21-12-2008, 20:12
:scratch: err ... you what?

Not in my book, it isn't! :lol: the 103 has a wonderful rich tonality that does classical very nicely, thanks!

You really have to remember that you can buy these for £90 delivered in the UK! Sure you can get better carts and/or easier ones to get the best out of - but for £90 I cannot think of another cart I would rather use on classical.

..................which is why it is considered a low-end/entry-level cartridge as I somehow stated in my first post in this thread.

I have, however, difficult to think of another cartridge that I would try to avoid more than the DL-103 for classical music.

IF I was forced to listen classical music with this cartridge, it should be either solos, duos or trios. Any more instruments and world war VIII would for sure break loose in any set-up.

"dolph"

jandl100
21-12-2008, 20:23
It's a general forum rule - and just plain good manners - not to start name-calling or insulting other forum members choice of system or hearing ability if they do not happen to share your point of view.

chris@panteg
21-12-2008, 20:29
Is there a similarity with the Decca London super gold, you see i have not heard a 103 but i once heard the Decca at Doug Dunlop's house many years ago, and it had a very distinctive sound which Dougie loved' but not sure if i could live with it .

jandl100
21-12-2008, 20:39
Yup, those Deccas certainly seem to be a love it or hate it thing. Personally, I'd love to try one.

Nice to hear about Doug Dunlop, too :) - I used to have one of his "Concordant Exquisite" pre-amps - nice & musical, but a bit coloured, imo.

DSJR
21-12-2008, 21:15
Decca's working right (they do, sometimes) in an arm they like and won't destroy and with a more solid mounting block (mine has a Bastin one similar to the GB of old) can sound closer to master tape than most other cartridges (I compared once). Whether you like this direct, forceful quality from your records and whether your preamp can take the transients from surface ticks etc. is another matter. I loved mine, most other turntable systems sounding like stodge by comparison.

One of the best vinyl sounds I've heard recently is the NAS Dias, 12" AceSpace arm and ZYX R100. Low surface noise, clean, uncloloured and clear and into a Tron phono stage, plenty of drama. It should be good, bearing in mind the price of deck/arm/cart/phono stage is about £7K!

Togil
22-12-2008, 08:10
:scratch: err ... you what?

Not in my book, it isn't! :lol: the 103 has a wonderful rich tonality that does classical very nicely, thanks!

You really have to remember that you can buy these for £90 delivered in the UK! Sure you can get better carts and/or easier ones to get the best out of - but for £90 I cannot think of another cart I would rather use on classical.

I only quoted a pdf on the Clearaudio website just like you , (at least until recently,Jerry) I'm " all digital "

As for Clearaudio equipment, I'm sure it's very popular with German dentists.

jandl100
22-12-2008, 08:18
Well, some people like the 'Bling Look' (is that what you were referring to re: German dentists? Or because German dentists are rich and the Clearaudio stuff is said to be poor vfm? - sorry, I'm a bit slow today, these subtleties are passing way over head height!) :)).

I've no idea personally what any of the Clearaudio kit sounds like, though, I've never heard any - but they sure get some good reviews!

Actually, that's not quite true - I have owned their little "Clever Clamp" LP puck thing in a previous vinyl revival.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Clearaudio-Clever-Clamp_W0QQitemZ250336974380QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4864 8QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1 638Q2em118Q2el1247
Cheap, effective and cute! Not sure if German dentists would like it, though. ;)

muffinman
22-12-2008, 17:57
Well, some people like the 'Bling Look' (is that what you were referring to re: German dentists? Or because German dentists are rich and the Clearaudio stuff is said to be poor vfm? - sorry, I'm a bit slow today, these subtleties are passing way over head height!) :)).


Hi Jerry,
i don't think vfm was a consideration when the blanket statement was made. some people have strong opinions
personally i think if something is inexpensive yet sounds good - it's just good and good vfm
if something is expensive and sounds bad or cannot justify its cost - then not only is it bad, it's a rip off
even in a world were aesthetics play too important a role in an audible arena,
i think if clearaudio decks were overpriced and underperforming pieces of tat we'd have heard about it by now.
judging by the fact that this isn't really the case, i'm guessing they're not too bad.

just my 2p

Beechwoods
22-12-2008, 18:14
I believe the thinking was that German dentists like expensive kit for the audio playback in their waiting rooms. I've not heard the equipment in question so couldn't really comment...

:door:

The Grand Wazoo
22-12-2008, 18:33
Yup, those Deccas certainly seem to be a love it or hate it thing. Personally, I'd love to try one.

I never had a Decca, but the best sound I ever heard was at a demo with a Decca Gold (or Super Gold or something similar) on a Rock into (I'm pretty sure) the Beveridge speakers (that Howard has mentioned elsewhere here). Max Townsend was in attendance, & at one point I was in the next room talking to someone, when I had to stop - Both I and the guy I was talking to could have sworn that Frank Sinatra was in that other room - a neat trick 'cos he was dead. I've never been more convinced of the worth of a good system. I never got one that sounded like that, but then nor do I expect to (it'd be nice though!)

..........I've also heard Deccas sounding dreadful - they can mistrack like a bastard!

anthonyTD
22-12-2008, 18:55
I never had a Decca, but the best sound I ever heard was at a demo with a Decca Gold (or Super Gold or something similar) on a Rock into (I'm pretty sure) the Beveridge speakers (that Howard has mentioned elsewhere here). Max Townsend was in attendance, & at one point I was in the next room talking to someone, when I had to stop - Both I and the guy I was talking to could have sworn that Frank Sinatra was in that other room - a neat trick 'cos he was dead. I've never been more convinced of the worth of a good system. I never got one that sounded like that, but then nor do I expect to (it'd be nice though!)

..........I've also heard Deccas sounding dreadful - they can mistrack like a bastard!
i still use a cranfield rock turntable!!!
:gig:

niklasthedolphin
22-12-2008, 21:11
I believe the thinking was that German dentists like expensive kit for the audio playback in their waiting rooms. I've not heard the equipment in question so couldn't really comment...

:door:


Now, I was the first one to mention any dentists waiting room in this thread and that was certainly not the meaning I put into it.............which is also clear if you go back and read what I wrote.

"dolph"

Beechwoods
22-12-2008, 21:19
:lolsign: I get it now... :doh:

Marco
23-12-2008, 08:23
Decca's working right (they do, sometimes) in an arm they like and won't destroy and with a more solid mounting block (mine has a Bastin one similar to the GB of old) can sound closer to master tape than most other cartridges (I compared once). Whether you like this direct, forceful quality from your records and whether your preamp can take the transients from surface ticks etc. is another matter. I loved mine, most other turntable systems sounding like stodge by comparison.


Hi Dave,

Agreed about Deccas. Again, like the 103 (when partnered and set-up properly) and the Ortofon SPU, they have a musical 'rightness' about them that I simply don't hear with modern cartridges, which are quite simply anodyne and soulless in comparison. I will therefore add a Decca to my cartridge collection sooner rather than later. Which ones would you recommend?

Right now though, I'm simply revelling in the superb sound quality from my recently purchased DL-103SA. It is outstandingly good in my vintage FR headshell on the 1210/Jelco! :gig:

Off to Liverpool today to buy some new (and old) vinyl. The second-hand stuff will be thoroughly cleaned on my new VPI HW 16.5 record cleaning machine. CDs or computer downloading will never be as much fun!! :)

Marco.

snapper
23-12-2008, 12:21
The second-hand stuff will be thoroughly cleaned on my new VPI HW 16.5 record cleaning machine. :)

Marco.


Nice one.

And about time. :smoking:

niklasthedolphin
23-12-2008, 12:25
The second-hand stuff will be thoroughly cleaned on my new VPI HW 16.5 record cleaning machine. :)

Marco.


A Handjob is better - in more than one way!
Merry Christmas.

:lolsign:

"dolph"

muffinman
23-12-2008, 12:49
A Handjob is better - in more than one way!


i also believe marco will get his dirty fluid sucked off when he's done :eyebrows:

Marco
23-12-2008, 18:23
Oi! Trust you two to lower the tone of the discussion... Tut, tut ;)

Marco.

DSJR
23-12-2008, 20:52
Have a care fella's, my old Dual 701 went bang this afternoon with a noxious smell :( I'm hoping it can be fixed as the electronics can be got at, but I don't think I can deal with it..... I don't want to scrap it, as the rest of it is still in very good order...

My Decca started life as a Gold and went to Australia many years ago for the Garrott treatment and is now a Microscanner. Compared to other Decca's it lacks the nasal "snap" of the stylus hitting the groove (Decca owners will know what I mean). It developed a buzz on sustained piano and guitar and I made things worse when trying to fix it. A trip to Moth Marketing and a subsequent sojourn with an ex-Decca man had the lateral coil replaced and everything cleaned and re-set, as well as the top magnet re-attached correctly. I live in hope of once again having a suitable arm for it and a turntable to play it on..