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freefallrob
05-02-2012, 23:31
Hi i'm wondering if the type of oil (viscosity, thickness whatever) has an impact on overall speed in belt drive turntables ( like the Heybrook TT2! ), the one i'm using is running a little quick (strobe disc advancing) and the oil in the bearing is very thin like sewing machine oil, would 'thicker' oil slow it a little and be better for the bearing?

Cheers for any thoughts/experiences.

Rob.

Dingdong
05-02-2012, 23:34
Have you put a new belt on it recently?

sq225917
06-02-2012, 00:06
Rob, most bearings don't have the 'clearance' required to get clever with different viscosity oils. If it's running a little fast slacken off the belt tension a touch if you can, that will drop the speed a little.

freefallrob
06-02-2012, 10:54
Have you put a new belt on it recently?

Hi yes it's a brand new original belt.

freefallrob
06-02-2012, 10:56
Rob, most bearings don't have the 'clearance' required to get clever with different viscosity oils. If it's running a little fast slacken off the belt tension a touch if you can, that will drop the speed a little.

Ah okay, I'll see if there's adjustment on the pulley etc, there is a couple of small grub screws on the plate, I'll have a look it to those....

Cheers.

freefallrob
06-02-2012, 16:35
How about EP80 gear oil, have some at work and apparently that' the sort of thing Rega use.

How much do I put in??

Rob.

YNWaN
06-02-2012, 16:58
That will be fine.

Enough to make sure the top bearing liners are immersed.

Dingdong
06-02-2012, 17:00
Hi yes it's a brand new original belt.

One of the things you can get with a new belt is that it is a bit tight and may run a little fast. as the belt stretches a little bit with age it should slow down slightly.
What was the speed like with the old belt?

hifi_dave
06-02-2012, 20:36
Very unlikely that the oil would slow the turntable unless it was very thick - like toffee. Most probably, the turntable is running slightly fast so that with the weight of the record and the stylus drag, it will run to or closer the correct speed.

DSJR
06-02-2012, 20:43
Turn the outer platter upside down, place back on the inner and switch on, watching how the belt runs once the platter is up to speed. I can't remember if the speed was fine-tuneable as it is with the LP12, but if the pulley has a narrower end, gently tilting the motor may help. Please DON'T touch the motor screws until you have a good idea what they do. It's decades since I last sold and set one up and I can't remember what's there. Some pics would be nice :)

P.S. Wasn't EP80 what Heybrook supplied originally?

freefallrob
07-02-2012, 10:19
One of the things you can get with a new belt is that it is a bit tight and may run a little fast. as the belt stretches a little bit with age it should slow down slightly.
What was the speed like with the old belt?

Hi, it's a long time since I heard/saw the original belt, but I believe it ran very slightly slow (when playing), the original was lost with the transit of time.....

I may just keep running it a while to see if it settles down as you suggest.

The whole table was in bits, so it's been put back together after spending along time apart!

freefallrob
07-02-2012, 10:21
Very unlikely that the oil would slow the turntable unless it was very thick - like toffee. Most probably, the turntable is running slightly fast so that with the weight of the record and the stylus drag, it will run to or closer the correct speed.

It still runs slightly fast with the needle down, outer groove.

It's a brand new belt, so as a previous post suggests it may settle down abit?

freefallrob
07-02-2012, 10:25
Turn the outer platter upside down, place back on the inner and switch on, watching how the belt runs once the platter is up to speed. I can't remember if the speed was fine-tuneable as it is with the LP12, but if the pulley has a narrower end, gently tilting the motor may help. Please DON'T touch the motor screws until you have a good idea what they do. It's decades since I last sold and set one up and I can't remember what's there. Some pics would be nice :)

P.S. Wasn't EP80 what Heybrook supplied originally?

Note taken about adjustments;-).

I'll take some pictures tonight and post them up.

All in all with Mission 774LC arm fitted (thank you Clive) and 2M Blue it sounds surprisingly good! Shockingly good infact.

Just need to settle a few things before i'm totally happy.

Thanks for reply thus far guys.

Dingdong
07-02-2012, 10:29
If you're feeling brave you could give the belt a very gentle stretch. Maybe measure it for length before and after.

MartinT
07-02-2012, 10:50
Roksan showed me two tricks for getting a flat belt right many years ago:

1. Dangle the belt from your finger. Now invert it (outside face inside) and do it again. One way will make an ovoid shape and the other will be more pear-shaped (the sides pulling in a little). Use it the ovoid way round.

2. Run the belt several times through a cloth smeared with wax furniture polish (e.g. Pledge). This gives the belt the correct level of grippiness.

Some turntable manufacturers were notorious for deliberately engineering their decks to run a little fast, creating a false sense of speed and excitement. Hope yours is not one of those.

DSJR
07-02-2012, 11:06
The TT2 really came into its own once the cast sub-chassis went into production. I found the previous ones a bit too "boingy" sounding, with their box-steel sub chassis' but others disagree with me on this. Like the AR legend, once the bearing tolerances were sorted out, this was a front-rank turntable and with the kind of cartridges and free-er thinking today, should get the respect it deserved.

freefallrob
07-02-2012, 11:28
If you're feeling brave you could give the belt a very gentle stretch. Maybe measure it for length before and after.

I'm not feeling brave right now, maybe in a bit;).

freefallrob
07-02-2012, 11:32
Roksan showed me two tricks for getting a flat belt right many years ago:

1. Dangle the belt from your finger. Now invert it (outside face inside) and do it again. One way will make an ovoid shape and the other will be more pear-shaped (the sides pulling in a little). Use it the ovoid way round.

2. Run the belt several times through a cloth smeared with wax furniture polish (e.g. Pledge). This gives the belt the correct level of grippiness.

Some turntable manufacturers were notorious for deliberately engineering their decks to run a little fast, creating a false sense of speed and excitement. Hope yours is not one of those.

1. Good tip about the belt inside/rightside out, I now remember that from a few years back, I'll check.

2. I'm not feeling very brave right now (see previous post;))

I don't think it's been designed to run fast, It didn't originally as far as i'm aware, I think the fact it's been in bits for years probably hasn't helped matters much, I little tinkering/time is required.

freefallrob
07-02-2012, 11:39
The TT2 really came into its own once the cast sub-chassis went into production. I found the previous ones a bit too "boingy" sounding, with their box-steel sub chassis' but others disagree with me on this. Like the AR legend, once the bearing tolerances were sorted out, this was a front-rank turntable and with the kind of cartridges and free-er thinking today, should get the respect it deserved.

Yeah, my Dad bought the best he could afford at the time, the TT2 was it at that moment.

I'd heard the cast chassis ones were supposed to be better and I can understand why, I've read some reviewers preferred the box-steel, I can understand that too for various reasons!

I heard this through my Dads set up the other night. (Heybrook TT2/774LC/2M BLUE, EAR834P, NAD amp, EPOS M12i) and the sound after some experimentation with mats (rubber mat with wool mat on top was best) was stunning in general, with several 'oh I hadn't heard that before' moments!

The turntable is now at my house in a more modest system of Rotel RA-04 amp, Mission 731s.

sq225917
07-02-2012, 13:50
ask Guiy from Puresound, he has one and knows all about em, his sounded bloody marvelous at Flat p's bake off last year, with a silver coiled and retipped Koetsu Black.:stalks:

freefallrob
07-02-2012, 14:03
ask Guiy from Puresound, he has one and knows all about em, his sounded bloody marvelous at Flat p's bake off last year, with a silver coiled and retipped Koetsu Black.:stalks:


Actually I have done by PM, I might have to use the telephone though;).

freefallrob
07-02-2012, 23:06
Some (not very flattering:rolleyes:) photos quickly taken earlier this evening....

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pmYUFlw07QpSEhO7GWGVfr6-UZrdtS7QnLLZBbnPokDYAZRcyCDr5r-XveVsgbW97OjZ7yE2pTn5BlqZkCPf1qw/DSCF2997.jpg?psid=1

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pdBimoVNcTXtFYSxvTzDRe7bzHHYaE3R0tx4nIT2S4arjoM9 i6YTevEoEliEP5dJdIpkjFct7QMIEeLnz6XRYug/DSCF2999.jpg?psid=1

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1peX5paDEHNRpe8BoHw-Z_RprM0bEyL74Nal1mKzDkET2fTWLfVHGXrmJpqmpE2S15DY9I wDoOrlqGx4_we5Ppdg/DSCF2998.jpg?psid=1

It does look to bad in real lfe!

freefallrob
09-02-2012, 15:24
Sorry that should read 'it doesn't look too bad in real life'.

shane
09-02-2012, 18:41
Some interesting comments on here! No, the TT2 wasn't designed to run fast, it was deigned to run at 33.33rpm! As with any belt-drive TT, the drive pulley is crowned to ensure that the belt runs stably in the middle of the pulley, but this also means that there will be a very slight variation in speed with belt tension. There is no provision for varying the position of the motor horizontally to adjust belt tension, but the speed should settle down as the belt beds in. Please Please don't use any sort of belt dressing or polish. We tried this many times and it always resulted in loss of musical drive and integrity. There should be no need to do this unless the belt has become so slack that it needs replacing anyway. If the belt has been polished, give it and the running surfaces of the pulley and sub-platter a really thorough clean with IPA, if you can get hold of it.

The grub screws on the front edge of the motor plate were used to set it's slope angle, which ensured that the belt rode on the centre of the pulley crown. To check if the belt is running high or low turn the platter upside down to observe, then slacken the two cap screws in the front corners of the motor plate a couple of turns, screw the grub screws one turn clockwise if it's running high or anti-clockwise if it's low, then tighten the cap screws and check again. Normally, the belt will run true if the motor plate slopes very slightly down towards the front.

If the suspension has been dismantled, you'll need to adjust the orientation of the springs to ensure that the chassis sits level and that the arm-board is in the centre of it's opening in the plinth. Originally, the springs would have been marked with a red marker-pen and corresponding triangular stickers were stuck to the chassis to line the marks on the springs up to. If the stickers are missing, a bit of fiddling is required. Because the springs were conical and weren't made up of a full number of turns, they had a natural lean when compressed. The art is to rotate the springs in their mountings (being very careful not to damage the rubber mountings. These and the platter are about the only parts which absolutely cannot be replaced any more) thus using the lean of the springs to orient the chassis in the plinth. When all is well and the arm cable is correctly dressed, the chassis should sit with the arm board central, and should bounce vertically with no rotation.

Not sure what Dave means when he talks about sorting out bearing tolerances. As far as I remember the bearings were always made the same way. The bearing shaft itself was ground from a piece of 10mm steel bar. I can't remember how much was taken off, but it would have been about .05mm or so (I wish I'd kept all my drawings when I left!). The bearing sleeve was made from a piece of 20mm hex brass bar with a thread and shoulder machined on the outside to take the M18 mounting nut, then it was bored down the middle to just under 10mm. Then a very hard high-precision carbide 10mm ball was forced all the way down which opened it out to 10mm exactly, at the same time polishing the inner surface very accurately. The engineering shop who did this for us always referred to this process as "ballderising", but I always thought it was called broaching. Once that was done, a brass plug was pushed in the bottom end and a 10mm steel ball dropped in to provide the point contact that the bearing shaft sat on. Obviously, the bearing ID was constant all the way down as there were no bushes inserted, so the oil capacity was quite small, not more than about .25ml, iirc. The advantage was that the resultant bearing surface was huge, so wear of the sleeve or shaft were virtually non-existent, and the bearing shaft was supported along it's entire length. The oil we used was a straight-forward machine oil of about the same viscosity as engine oil (again, I can't remember the spec, this was all 30 years ago!). I definitely wouldn't use 3-in-1, as this has all sorts of horrible graphite gunge in it, and sewing machine oil's a bit thin. Gearbox oil would be a better bet.

I have a copy of the set-up manual somewhere, if I find it, I'll put it up on the AoS library.

I'm intrigued by your photos. The black platter and plywood top plinth surface indicate a very early model, which I would have expected to have the earlier fabricated steel chassis. What's the serial number? They started at 00101. The black platters were an emergency remedy for the fist batch of platters which were plagued with little blow-holes. These had no effect on sound, but looked bloody awful. I've heard of some people taking off the paint and polishing them, but you don't know what you're going to find under there.

It's all a very long time ago now, but if you need any more help, I'll do what I can.

It occurs to me that there are now three or four TT2s on Aos, some with steel chassis, some with alloy. It would be interesting to get one of each together and compare. I've forgotten what they sound like now, but at the time, therewas a natural tendancy to assume the alloy one was better, since once the tooling had been made there was no going back!

Incidentally, if you wonder why the TT2 and most of the other contemporary clones looked the same as the LP12, there was one very simple reason. The total development cost of the TT2 was about £3,000, but the cost of a tool to injection-mould a bespoke lid would have been about £25,000. Answer? Buy lids and hinges (and turntable mats, come to that) from Ivor. Not that he specified the size originally. The first LP12s used lids bought in from Lenco, so in reality, they all take their dimensions from the GL75.

pure sound
09-02-2012, 20:42
Useful stuff Shane. I've sent Rob a couple of belts from the stock I acquired when the factory shut. Can you recall where they came from? They seem to be of a very good quality albeit shorter than what most decks would need. 142x5x1mm. The bags I had had labels but no indication of the maker. I still have springs which I gather were matched in 3's for height. None of the rubber bushings, lots of mats, a few plinths, blank Mk2 armboards and a few outer platters which may have been 2nds. There are a couple of black ones among them. And lots of 50Hz and 60 Hz motor pulleys. I sent a 50 Hz pulley to someone in Turkey just today!

Marco
09-02-2012, 20:47
Here's one (or actually, two) I resized earlier:


http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1325/dscf2997c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/dscf2997c.jpg/)


http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5496/dscf2999.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/513/dscf2999.jpg/)


Ahem! ;)

Marco.

shane
09-02-2012, 22:03
Sorry, but I've no idea where the belts came from, but Peter would probably remember. I'll drop him an email.

I do remember that sourcing them was a long process. When we started the process of productionising the TT, we obained a suitable belt from a local Philips spares stockist, and once we'd decided that would do, dropped in an order for a hundred. For various reasons I don't remember, development was delayed for several months and we overlooked the fact that the belts hadn't arrived for some time, only to be told when we enquired as to their whereabouts that that particular belt was no longer available. The story we were told was that t was originally from a tape deck, and normally Philips only sold a few spares each year, so when they suddenly had an order for 100, they assumed that they were failing at a huge rate and promptly re-designed the tape deck to use a stronger belt!

I'm pretty sure that in the end we had them specially made to our spec, but I don't remember by whom. One of the reasons why the TT2 sounded good IMO was because the belt was stiffer and less stretchy than most, and so coupled the platter more rigidly to the motor, rather in the manner of an idler.

The user manual is available here courtesy of The Vinyl Engine (you may need to register). http://www.vinylengine.com/library/heybrook/tt2.shtml

DSJR
09-02-2012, 22:46
Shane and all, apologies for my typing regarding bearing tolerances - it was the AR 77XB and early "AR The Turntable" which had rotten main bearings which ruined the basic design. the Legend model (IIRC) introduced a new main bearing which removed the slop and restored this deck to optimum. The TT2 NEVER had bearing issues and I'm sorry if my clumsy typing suggested this.

I wonder what an Alphason HR100S arm would sound like on one of these decks - and also a modern mat design to replace the woolly felt thing they supplied originally?

sq225917
09-02-2012, 22:59
The belt certainly looks like a beast, for the record the SME ones are slightly thicker than the Lp12 ones.

pure sound
10-02-2012, 10:04
I wonder what an Alphason HR100S arm would sound like on one of these decks - and also a modern mat design to replace the woolly felt thing they supplied originally?


The Xenon works very well on mine (Mk2) but then so does the SMEV. A copper mat also works well although requires considerable suspension re-adjustment.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/Xenon.jpg

YNWaN
10-02-2012, 11:10
Can I get a couple of drive belts from you Guy, and a 50Hz pulley? Pick them up at the pie show?

pure sound
10-02-2012, 11:23
Yes, no problem.

YNWaN
10-02-2012, 13:04
Cool, see you in the bar....:)

Marco
10-02-2012, 13:06
Ok, so who's buying? ;)

Marco.

shane
11-02-2012, 16:58
The oil we used was a straight-forward machine oil of about the same viscosity as engine oil (again, I can't remember the spec, this was all 30 years ago!). I definitely wouldn't use 3-in-1, as this has all sorts of horrible graphite gunge in it, and sewing machine oil's a bit thin. Gearbox oil would be a better bet.

I've been thinking about this, and in retrospect, I'm now fairly sure that the oil was lighter than gearbox oil. I still wouldn't use 3-in-1, but sewing machine oil or gun oil should do the trick.

freefallrob
13-02-2012, 00:31
Well thanks for all the replies guys, too late to go in to detail now, but I think it's fair to say I believe I have a result (via the headphones anyway) , needs some fine tuning (VTA etc), but all the basics seem right.

Currently EP80 oil, belt the right way around (:doh:), Linn Basik Plus tone arm (thanks Clive again), Goldring 1012GX...

The Mission 774LC wasn't getting on with the 2M blue (cart wagging the arm I reakon), at some point i'll try the mission with the Goldring, could work I think.

What a faff!

We now have a base to move forward from:).

MartinT
13-02-2012, 06:35
Nice result, Rob.

shane
13-02-2012, 19:12
Good stuff. I always get a warm glow from happy TT2 owners...

freefallrob
14-02-2012, 13:57
Thanks to all those that answered my PMs, very useful info and some wonderful background knowledge here.

With a bit of luck you'll see the 30 year old TT2 at Scalford as we now have a room on the 2nd floor:eek:.

I'm not totally sure yet what form the system will take (simple!), but after last year I may fill all the components with helium to make them lighter for the voyage upstairs!

I have some pictures to up load later of table, they are just snaps in various forms of undress, I'll try to resize them this time Marco!

Clive
14-02-2012, 14:03
Hi Rob, I'm pleased the arm is getting some use again! It's better than having it sitting here on my shelf.

freefallrob
14-02-2012, 14:06
Hi Rob, I'm pleased the arm is getting some use again! It's better than having it sitting here on my shelf.

Hi Clive, yes many thanks indeed, glad you found the thread.

shane
20-02-2012, 11:45
A steel-chassis TT2 has just popped up on ebay, with some excellent photos of the innards. These show clearly the red line on the suspension springs lining up with the stickers (little red triangles) on the chassis. The sticker positions were the same for all turntables, so if you copy these, you should be OK.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251000149318&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123

freefallrob
20-02-2012, 15:47
That's nice Shane, in better nick physically than my example (added to watch list!), reminds me I need to put some more info on here when i'm at home, picys, serial number (it's very early I think, 173 or something from memory) etc.

The one I have here has a brown lid (not clear) and a silver motor plate.

Sounded fine indeed on Saturday afternoon on a test run for Scalford;).

shane
20-02-2012, 17:15
The number and the silver plate put it in the very first batch. That one would have been assembled by my own fair hand! I'd forgotten we ever sent them out with silver motor plates. What were we thinking of?

freefallrob
22-02-2012, 13:53
Hi Shane, really interesting to know you built it! Wow!

Here's some more (bad) pictures.

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p8Gs-uKwWr-sd4TbvyJzeXvIqTV5vFZZPtqXDSBE4ldvpgKdKa4OY0WqKHG_k i91PQjA1uQINpoWux8yAjtzRzQ/DSCF3005.jpg?psid=1

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pMG21k7hC3l51krOSzbbNisBLCMXo_JJxCdefjyQaYNTN9e5 q6cKhl_06H7KrppR0GmJftlQjK3uE_SwtYE1GiA/DSCF3011.jpg?psid=1

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pzfzsnIzMwwhp0UT01RsjB1bn8zXV64SB6ses9QDxDXL3n_w c_JWxHR1C7Jl0KSKj3yDPGB0RMMA-LB7VsS9jBw/DSCF3013.jpg?psid=1

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pNRFzfOJMVvWErLFaFdf8uQV6B52q-df3DXynX6DBss86mW8MlkuqjySMP7Fs7rUgHl9X6j2GWlKIeke mT7TJJw/DSCF3017.jpg?psid=1

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pV2s0o7bdtYFzU1VxX_v_Tv7vZUf53NS5gnXF_JLQTHihXoE PcwxPJ4SAWR20NzldYgOWFVmtb0q-_4kRT55ZrQ/DSCF3018.jpg?psid=1

Nice tidy 'work station' ;-).

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p1RbfZURcYQ8mtxfyICVB0_Qjy5fuxU1tw6nJxfeyt50BVQ9 sxT85QlQuk4_EQ-9a2z-cQD8rWNa4QrYRVFWyEA/DSCF3023.jpg?psid=1

Goldring 1012GX mounted in the Linn Basik Plus tone arm (correct overhang), flash shows imperfections horribly!

https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pVe-95d0LSP2Zwz8Blgy93DGwT7XpCLAGSJHjrsiszBLO2GdG1jfRg jvccg3Q2ZGwVJ60FoxtCAGhPBhuc0QXrg/DSCF3024.jpg?psid=1

freefallrob
01-03-2012, 15:42
Well i've pinched the RB300 of my Dads SL1210mk2 for the show, it betters the Linn Basik Plus easily, shame i've got to give it back......the Linn is nice to set up and sits nicely on the Heybrook anyhow:).