View Full Version : Help with dac selection please.
Hi all,
My system is currently biased towards movies and I wish to drastically improve the music performance. I'm thinking of moving to a 2 channel setup with an integrated amp to go with my monitor audio floor standers.
My problem is that I have 3 digital sources and will need a dac to convert them:
apple tv with optical out
Virgin v+ with optical out
DVD player/recorder with coaxial out
My question is: do I need 3 dacs or can I get a decent low budget one (£2-300 max) with input switching (remote or auto switching?).
If it's 1 dac, it needs to have remote or auto switching to be family friendly.
The v+ box and DVD do have analogue outputs, but I guess they aren't very good.
Does that make sense?
Any ideas? Any help would be most welcome.
Cheers, Martin
Hi Martin
You could try and contact Stan http://www.beresford.me and hear if he have a Caiman+ in the corner of his warehouse.
I own two Caimans but the "+" version have a second optical instead of the USB port.
StanleyB
03-02-2012, 07:46
The forthcoming Bushmaster will have two optical and two coax inputs plus auto/manual input selection.
bobbasrah
03-02-2012, 09:08
apple tv with optical out
Virgin v+ with optical out
DVD player/recorder with coaxial out
What are you using currently for these opt and coax feeds?
The question you should really be asking Martin is what you need to play your music on that justifies a special DAC, then put the DAC on that line. If you need better quality music from all 3 sources, a better AV amp may be more appropriate, THEN add a DAC to your dedicated player.
eg I have cable box opt, DVD opt, HTPC opt, and HTPCusb->DACopt+RCA all feeding to the AV amp.
If watching movies or whatever, the inboard DACs of the AV handle audio on the selected input and decode to very good quality as required. :)
If listening to music from the HTPC via the dedicated DAC, the appropriate input selection on the AV takes that input to give best audio input on RCA to bypass the inboard DACs on the AV. :D
Does that arrangement not make more sense?:scratch:
Thanks for the info,
I have a 10 yr old Pioneer AV receiver (VSX-AX3), which was around £700 ish, I think. It's a nice piece of kit, but it is widely acknowledged as being useless with music but great with movies.
The direct and stereo modes are not good at all and I think adding an external DAC will be a waste with this unit. I've not used the analogue inputs on it, but I guess that they are rubbish too.
My reasoning is that I'll have to spend >£800 to get a new AV receiver that sounds good with music, as opposed to maybe £4-500 or less for a stereo amp (plus maybe £150-200 extra for the DAC).
I have demo'd an arcam A18 and new audiolab 8200 with my speakers and the improvement over my AVR is incredible.
The Bushmaster could be the perfect solution for me - assuming that it sounds good :)
Or perhaps maybe a second hand AVR that's good with music? Any worthy models that can be had for £4-500?
Needless to say, money is tight for luxuries at the moment, so I need to choose wisely.
Does this make sense?
Martin
p.s. just added the list of my kit below.
If you can find an old Classe SSP30/300 or Proceed AVP2 it might do the job but other than that I think it will be a struggle
Oh by the way they are both processors so you would need a 5/7 channel amp too - some how I think it will be far easier to run separate hifi system and run the av front outs into an aux input
bobbasrah
03-02-2012, 21:39
Thanks for the info,
I have a 10 yr old Pioneer AV receiver (VSX-AX3), which was around £700 ish, I think. It's a nice piece of kit, but it is widely acknowledged as being useless with music but great with movies.
The direct and stereo modes are not good at all and I think adding an external DAC will be a waste with this unit. I've not used the analogue inputs on it, but I guess that they are rubbish too.
My reasoning is that I'll have to spend >£800 to get a new AV receiver that sounds good with music, as opposed to maybe £4-500 or less for a stereo amp (plus maybe £150-200 extra for the DAC).
I have demo'd an arcam A18 and new audiolab 8200 with my speakers and the improvement over my AVR is incredible.
The Bushmaster could be the perfect solution for me - assuming that it sounds good :)
Or perhaps maybe a second hand AVR that's good with music? Any worthy models that can be had for £4-500?
Needless to say, money is tight for luxuries at the moment, so I need to choose wisely.
Does this make sense?
Martin
p.s. just added the list of my kit below.
A dedicated audio amp will always sound better than a AVR, especially when paired with good speakers. However, is it a case of you WANT another amp or NEED another amp.:)
That AVR seems on specs quite capable, even if it is not highly rated by whoever for music. :scratch: Maybe you are not getting out what it is capable of at present, perhaps the onboard DACs are not so good, or the digital output from the peripherals are crap. Maybe indeed it is not worth keeping, but I would test every avenue before throwing it away.:eyebrows:
You are currently using digital inputs from all 3 peripherals, yet assume the analogue inputs are rubbish, without having tested them even with a half decent interconnect? :mental:
Depending on how good the DACs are on the peripherals it might be worth the expense of a 20 quid interconnect to find out. You are going to need a good one for the DAC anyhow... If you can beg, borrow, or demo a very good player from someone and test all the options, you might find the amp is not so bad as you assumed either on digital OR analogue.... If not, you have at least examined the possibilities.
I do have a 20+year old Pioneer VSX-D1S that runs 5 channel fine if externally decoded for modern formats. In direct mode it is better than the Cambridge I have TBH, but it has no digital inputs nor inboard DACs.
If and only if I get a very good dedicated audio amp, and have over 1,000 readies to buy it, will the Pio be retired.;) YMMV :cool:
Ali Tait
03-02-2012, 21:51
Try the Temple Audio Bantam Gold, or the monoblocks. Amazingly good for the money.
Bushmaster with Bantam on the fronts sounds a good solution to me. Probably needs an external input switch to swap between music and AV though
I was offered an AX10 on AVF the other day @ £250 but it wasn't what I was after - but its still available and should move the sound up a few notches and maintains ease of use if not 100% brilliant for music
Wow, thanks for the replies and suggestions.
Looks like I've got quite a few options to consider:
1. Go 2 channel with a new ~£500 amp and something like the bushmaster on the front end. Amp needs remote control to keep everyone happy, so Bantams would not be an option, sadly.
2. Try and find a "musical" AVR at a reasonable price.
3. Investigate the possibilities with my current amp i.e. check out the analogue inputs/bypassing the built-in dac.
4. Try adding an integrated (or power) amp to my current system, using my current AVR as a preamp.
5. Any other options?
In the meantime, I'm going to have a play with my current AVR - I've got a couple of Denon 1920 DVD players in the loft (don't ask) that supposedly have pretty good dacs built-in.
I could use a 1920 player, fed into the AVR analogue input and compare this with the same tracks played through the Apple tv2s optical output. Should give me a sense of what is possible without spending any cash at this stage.
What do you think?
Martin
bobbasrah
04-02-2012, 10:57
For the price of a decent RCA interconnect? Um, yes.
I think there is a need to go back to reviewing what you are trying to achieve.
A high quality combined music/AV system with ease of use is going to be expensive. A full blown Meridian system would probably do the trick for you but even second hand you are likely to be talking £5000 rather than £500.
There are going to have to be compromises, be it music quality, ease of use or spend.
On the ease of use front upgrading the AVR is the easiest route but finding one that's sounds good is going to be a real challenge. I have an MC12 but I don't use it for music, actually its not bad, but even the standard Caiman is better.
Adding pre amps, power amps etc etc will be cheaper but it will require more switching and unless you move to units that are fully remote controllable and then but something like a Harmony remote, its not going to be easy to power up and use.
By the time I have switched on the source, the processor, the pre amp, the power amps, the cooling fans, the display and all in the correct order mine is not an easy system to use. The dac is on 24/7.
One other option you might want to consider is a Beresford TC7220. This would allow you to keep the existing set up for AV/Music but add a HiFi Dac and Integrated with manual volume control for more serious music session. Most sources offer optical and coaxial out so one set would feed the av receiver and the other the dac.
Your speakers are pretty efficient so a low power low cost class D amp such as the Bantam would work.
The other option is to look for a class D amp with more than one input and a remote. This way you could also feed the front line out of the processor into the hifi pre and get sound improvements on both (but with loss of ease of use). search on ebay for Class T remote in the consumer electronics category.
Do you need ease of use all the time or just some of the time ?
For the price of a decent RCA interconnect? Um, yes.
definitely worth a try - and don't forget the source direct button too
I'm off to the loft right now to see what I can find...
Martin
OK, here's what I've got:
Denon 1930 DVD/CD player.
Cable talk purple interconnects.
Cambridge audio P55 integrated.
The denon and cable are connected and warming up...
Martin
Yahooo, we have a solution.
I took your advice (thanks chaps) and connected the DVD player to the analogue inputs of the pioneer AVR and compared the results with the same tracks via the apple tvs optical output.
The results were not really much different, the DVDs analogue out sounded less focussed and the bottom end was a bit loose. The apple tv sounded much tighter and more controlled in comparison. I listened to a number of albums, ranging from pop stuff to gorillaz, eagles, pink floyd etc.
Both ways sounded very lackluster, lacking in scale, rhythm and dynamics - OK but not great.
This morning I connected up my old Cambridge P55 integrated amp (£400yonks ago) and it all sounds magnificent!
Music hasn't sounded this good in my house for a long, long time.
The P55 has a very smooooth top end and a big wobbly bottom end (!) thats very easy on the ear indeed. I've been listening to the same tracks again and it's a revelation!
Maybe it's a bit long in the tooth and hasn't got a remote, but the P55 still sounds great!
Anyone know of a good £4-500 amp (new or second hand) that would give me a similar smooth presentation?
Thanks so far,
Martin
bobbasrah
06-02-2012, 12:18
Wow. Unexpected result, but vindicates your previous view of the Pio if the old Cambridge can better it.... The P55 will be better known around here as a benchmark to make recommendations I would think....
It sounds as if the Pio may be better put up for sale if you can get a decent price for it, which should give a bit more in the kitty... Meanwhile you can use the Cambridge and rethink the surround aspect. It may be worth re-evaluating whether surround is really necessary....
Hi all,
Can anyone recommend a decent 1m interconnect for around £20-30?
Perhaps one that I can pick up locally?
Cheers,
Martin
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