What Makes a Classic?

[jazzpiano]

Ignore if this has been discussed in the past. LS3/5a, 301/401, TD-124, ESL 57, ... We all know these letter - number configurations (the "sickness"). Why? Are they more accurate? More euphonic? Do they do one thing or many things well? What makes them desirable and possessing of that most elusive of qualities (like good wine) - memorability? And what of today belongs to tomorrow?

Barry :cool:

[chelsea]

First and foremost i think most of it still stands the test of time.
Throw in a bit of the days when stuff was built to last,add a bit of emotion and it can make a heady mix.

Although the ls3 was made for speech i have heard them sound superb.
Not the best allrounder but one of the best midranges as is the 57.

I feel the pinnacle of hi fi was the 60s 70s and 80s and people seem to be going back to this gear in there droves,hench the prices.

[Dingdong]

I'm not sure if you could call my stuff classic. It just seems to offer the best bang for my buck.
I'm not sure if teak is my favourite finish, but I'm sort of getting used to it now.

[philsparks]

I think a 'classic' is a bit of kit that did something (and it need only be 1 thing) better than anything else at the time and kept that position just long enough to 'stick' in people's memories. It doesn't have to be a balanced performance - just one, stand-out feature.

e.g. Linn Kans - never a 'balanced' presentation. Not cheap. Not much bass. But did boogie and rhythm better than any small box from the mid 80s. Once that 'feature' has taken hold it's there for good.

Pioneer A400 amp - the first decent/audiophile budget-ish Japanese amp. Not necessarily better than European models, but the 'decent Japanese' sticks, and therefore it's a classic.

So if an item becomes the de-facto choice for a particular requirement for a period of time - it's classic status is secured. Naim 250, Nad 3020, AR18s, Linn Isobarik, LP12,

Just my opinion of course.

cheers
Phil

[Dingdong]

When I think of classic it is along the lines of Garrard, Thorens, Lenco, Tannoy, Quad, LS3/5a and that sort of thing. Stuff that is still very desirable today.

Linn and Naim don't get a look-in on that list for me.

[philsparks]

"Stuff that is still very desirable today.

Linn and Naim don't get a look-in on that list for me."

..... seen how much Nait-2s are fetching on ebay these days!!

Phil

[Dingdong]

"Stuff that is still very desirable today.

Linn and Naim don't get a look-in on that list for me."

..... seen how much Nait-2s are fetching on ebay these days!!

Phil


It never occurred to me to look;)

[The Grand Wazoo]

What makes a classic?
I asked this question once before on AoS & I proposed three theories:



Classic hi-fi is defined by what was current (or cool but unaffordable) in the youth of whichever drooling casualty is defining it. Or it's the stuff that was around when they first got interested in hi-fi (not necessarily the same thing).


Ebay has turned the whole thing on it's head


True classic or vintage items must have some degree of 'merit' in addition to age.

[Audioflair]

To me a classic is a design which was well-executed but also had some intangible `magic` which made it click above other models in its range and stand the test of time. Perhaps emotional intelligence, perhaps a stumbled-upon golden ratio. Something beguiling in its sound, maybe a natural resonance as achieved by some thin-wall birch ply speaker cabs giving the voice a more believable tone or a sound that while not strictly accurate communicates with audiophiles in a way other products don`t manage to.
Many modern brave-new-world products excite `early-adopters` with new materials and technologies but only time will tell if they become classics - usually not.
We decide ultimately I guess.

[Barry]

What makes a classic?
I asked this question once before on AoS & I proposed three theories:



Classic hi-fi is defined by what was current (or cool but unaffordable) in the youth of whichever drooling casualty is defining it. Or it's the stuff that was around when they first got interested in hi-fi (not necessarily the same thing).


Ebay has turned the whole thing on it's head


True classic or vintage items must have some degree of 'merit' in addition to age.


I would go for the last: the first has an element of nostalgia to it, which may not be born out on listening, and the second is largely bogus as relative scarcity has a large effect on eBay prices.

True classic items are those which do indeed have an indefinable 'something' about them. The best are well made, using good quality components, are reliable and as likely or not to have been used by professionals: in recording studios; the quality control suites of record companies, and by broadcasters. I'm rather proud of the fact that most of my gear fulfills the last criterion.

[bogle111]

What makes a classic?
I asked this question once before on AoS & I proposed three theories:



Classic hi-fi is defined by what was current (or cool but unaffordable) in the youth of whichever drooling casualty is defining it. Or it's the stuff that was around when they first got interested in hi-fi (not necessarily the same thing).


Ebay has turned the whole thing on it's head


True classic or vintage items must have some degree of 'merit' in addition to age.


I think you have summed it up well, except for the "Classic" & "Vintage".
A "Classic" has to have that certain something as Barry states, but it is some buyers and sellers that have created "largely bogus as relative scarcity has a large effect on eBay prices." There are an awful lot of SP10s out there for instance, and Ebay just fuels the fire on prices and reassures the owners that it is "good".

"Vintage" just has to be old. Old Hi Fi can be Vintage, but not always Classic. Some things can be Classics, but not necessarily Vintage.

A great deal of Vintage Hi Fi is actually "Kitsch".

I am Vintage:doh:, definitely, and sometimes described as Classic, due to my sense of humour!!:mental: though my wife frequently views me as Kitsch.:rolleyes:

Classic, Vintage or Kitsch. It can be two of these, but not all three at the same time.

Does that make Linn Kans a Klassik ??

[Dingdong]

I don't see SP-10's appear that often on ebay. I've been looking for a while. Now I've got one I think it is quite good. Never really thought of it as a classic.

[Alex_UK]

A great deal of Vintage Hi Fi is actually "Kitsch".

And a great deal of Vintage is actually crap. ;)

[Audioflair]

I believe most classics are so for good reason. There are some I don`t much like which, no doubt, work well in other types of system than my own. Take a company like Quad who designed the brilliant ESL 57`s. The 63`s which followed are probably less of a classic although many technical improvements were made by excellent engineers to improve them over their predecessors - including the imaging. Compared to the natural sparkle of a 57 they sound restrained and `safe`- reluctant to stick their neck out when the music gets edgy. (The other day I heard a pair without their cloth grilles and was surprised at the improvement... but that`s another topic.)

[DSJR]

57's sparkle for all the wrong reasons :) had they wide trebke dispersion they would have been far better but smoother. The 63 needs to be tilted back a touch and raised off the floor. Do this and all the clothy deadness in the treble disappears and a good pair really will disappear from the reproduction chain. trouble is, the glues are coming unstuck now I understand and many need severe servicing to bring them back to life.

[Beobloke]

To me, there are three basic categories although, as with most things in life, it is rarely this simple:

(1) A true 'classic'.

An item that, in performance terms, is still competitive today. The likes of a Garrard 301/401 or a Technics SP10 show this perfectly as they can still show modern turntables a thing or two, but there are plenty of other examples out there. Equally, there are some items that marked a milestone at their time of launch and that can still be considered as bona fide classics but whose performance, although still enjoyable, really isn't quite up to modern standards (SME 3009?).

(2) 'Interesting' old gear.

A big category and simply something that was decent enough at the time and still does a decent job but is not all that spectacular and not really worth getting too excited over.

(3) The dross

The stuff which was crap when new and is still crap now!

[Rare Bird]

(3) The dross

The stuff which was crap when new and is still crap now!

Gis a few examples Adam!

:)

[Beobloke]

Gis a few examples Adam!

:)

I shouldn't really, but what the heck...

Connoisseur BD1
Rogers Ravensbourne amplifier
Connoisseur BD1
Anything made by BSR
Did I mention the Connoisseur BD1?

:D

Incidentally, Andre, have you opted out of PMs? I tried to send you a message last week about a mystery Ferrograph recorder I encountered but it wouldn't send.

[Marco]

Hi Adam,

Just a quickie, and sorry for butting in, but just to say that I really enjoyed reading your review of the Ortofon TA-110 tonearm, in this month's HFW, and agreed with many of your observations.

I particularly enjoyed you alluding to what had been discussed here before about the Ortofon simply being a 'tarted-up Jelco' :eyebrows: ;)

Anyway, could you do me a favour and ask Henley to send you an RS-212D for review, such as I use? You could use it with a modern MC cartridge - it doesn't have to be with an SPU; perhaps in conjunction with one of Noel's favourite Cadenzas?

I'd be curious to know what you thought of it, a) in comparison with the TA-110, and b) in terms of where it sits, in your opinion, alongside an SME IV or V.

Do you think you could make that one happen, matey? :cool:

Marco.

[Dingdong]

I shouldn't really, but what the heck...

Connoisseur BD1
Rogers Ravensbourne amplifier
Connoisseur BD1
Anything made by BSR
Did I mention the Connoisseur BD1?

:D

Incidentally, Andre, have you opted out of PMs? I tried to send you a message last week about a mystery Ferrograph recorder I encountered but it wouldn't send.

I had a BD1. It was pretty crap. The elastic bands holding the motor rotted. The on switch that gave the platter a shove in the right direction was novel.
It only cost 40 quid with a 3009sII on it, which I sold years later for £220.:cool:

[Beobloke]

Hi Adam,

Just a quickie, and sorry for butting in, but just to say that I really enjoyed reading your review of the Ortofon TA-110 tonearm, in this month's HFW, and agreed with many of your observations.

I particulary enjoyed you alluding to what had been discussed here before about the Ortofon simply being a 'tarted-up Jelco' :eyebrows: ;)

Anyway, could you do me a favour and ask Henley to send you an RS-212D, such as I use, for review? You could use it with a modern MC cartridge - it doesn't have to be with an SPU; perhaps in conjunction with one of Noel's favourite Cadenzas?

I'd be curious to know what you thought of it, a) in comparison with the TA-110, and b) in terms of where it sits, in your opinion, alongside an SME IV or V.

Do you think you could make that one happen, matey? :cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco,

It's a nice idea and I'd be quite keen to do this but, unfortunately, as I mentioned in the review, the 9" AS212S and RS212D variants are now discontinued, and have been replaced by the TA110. Only the 12" RS309D and AS309S are still made but with the coming of the TA210 I wonder whether their days are numbered, too.

It was a very interesting experience reviewing the TA110 as, back at the beginning, even I half wondered whether the 'tarted up Jelco' story had some truth in it! Chatting at length to one of Ortofon's engineers at Munich about it last year made me realise that perhaps this was not the case and having the TA110 and the SA-750D side by side and auditioned on the same deck made me realise that they are two quite different beasts. I really should be less cynical I suppose...:D

A.

[Marco]

Hi Adam,

Interesting that you say it's discontinued, because Henley seemingly had no problem a) obtaining a new RS-212D, via an order from my dealer, in the first place, or b) replacing it when I accidentally knackered it trying to fix a faulty SPU (you may have read about my experience, in that respect, on AoS).

If it were discontinued, how did I manage to get hold of two of them, as new items?

Anyway, I can relate to your observations about the TA-110, as Jelco take things a stage further again with the much more expensive RS-212D. Observing the latter for the first time, neither my dealer nor I could believe that both it and the SA-750D were born in the same factory! :eek:

It's a shame you can't get to hear an RS-212D, as if you liked the TA-110, I think you'd be gob-smacked!!

Still, with the Ortofon TA-110 now around, it's nice for there to exist a viable alternative to the usual boring Rega and SME options.... ;)

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Incidentally, Andre, have you opted out of PMs? I tried to send you a message last week about a mystery Ferrograph recorder I encountered but it wouldn't send.

Go on then wat is it :eyebrows:

[Beobloke]

Still, with the Ortofon TA-110 now around, it's nice for there to exist a viable alternative to the usual boring Rega and SME options... ;)

Marco.

Very true. Mind you, I'm loving every second of the 'boring old' SME 309 that's now back on my 301. ;)


Go on then wat is it :eyebrows:

A 5 series recorder with the model number 'YD5D'. Looked pretty much the same as the 532 sat beside it, though!

Apologies for the appalling double thread drift everyone. To get it back on track, though, Ferrograph recorders are definite classics and I nominate the SME 309 and Ortofon RS-212Ds a classics of the future! :)

[chris@panteg]

Very true. Mind you, I'm loving every second of the 'boring old' SME 309 that's now back on my 301. ;)



A 5 series recorder with the model number 'YD5D'. Looked pretty much the same as the 532 sat beside it, though!

Apologies for the appalling double thread drift everyone. To get it back on track, though, Ferrograph recorders are definite classics and I nominate the SME 309 and Ortofon RS-212Ds a classics of the future! :)

I use a 309 , not bad for a boring bland as fxxk tonearm is it ;)

[Marco]

Choice is good, Chris...

At least it's not all 'buy Rega this', 'SME that' anymore, and so hopefully people's choices might be less insular now! ;)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Choice is good, Chris...

At least it's not all 'buy Rega this', 'SME that' anymore, and so hopefully people's choices might be less insular now! ;)

Marco.

Yes I agree Marco , maybe I am a badge snob but I do drive a mondeo lol.

I just love SME quality and a V would be nice ! Though the leads aren't great;)

[Barry]

A 5 series recorder with the model number 'YD5D'. Looked pretty much the same as the 532 sat beside it, though!

Interesting! Models using the prefix "YD" were made for GCHQ and were built into a metal (steel) cabinets.

Versions of the (mono) Series 5 recorders made for the BBC were designated "RD5"

I'm not quite sure exactly what your "YD5D" can be. Is it possible for you to post a photo? Does it look like the one used in the film "The Ipcress File"? You can see a YD5 (not a YD5D) here:

http://www.ferrographworld.com/famous.htm

Regards

[Barry]

I've done a little more research and it would seem that for the YD5 there were four versions:

YD5A (speeds: 7.5, 3.75, 1.875 ips)
YD5AH (speeds: 15 and 7.5 ips)
YD5B (speeds: 7.5, 3.75, 1.875 ips)
YD5BH (speeds: 15 and 7.5 ips)

It's not clear the difference between suffix "A" models and those having suffix "B". It's possible the "A" versions were portable machines, whereas the "B" were rack mountable models.

Can't find a reference to a "YD5D".

All came with steel cases and were "intended for those engaged in scientific and industrial pursuits."

[Rare Bird]

Vortexion 'CBL7' anyone please, i've only been hunting for one for 15 years now :(

[Dominic Harper]

I think a real classic is the 401, and we have both the 301 and the 401. The 401 is using the 3009 and sound superb. A great classic combination. I also think the Thorens TD124 is asnother a classic. Mind you these are just my opinion.

Natalie;)

[Rare Bird]

I'm sorry to say this but , it seems a classic usually has a redicularse price tag attached. I really really want another 'Hydraulic Reference' TT with fluid arm & ADC cartridge but refuse to pay what they fetch..

[bogle111]

And a great deal of Vintage is actually crap. ;)

Kitsch is polite for crap.:doh:

[Dingdong]

I don't think anyone would disagree with the Garrards and the 124. What other turntables would make it into the classic category?
LP12, Lenco, Gyro, Transcriptor, Sp-10 maybe. SL-1210? Na. It's just too effin' ugly. :lol:

[Dominic Harper]

I agree, when you think about the Lenco L75. At one time you could pick this turntable up for peanuts, now they going for, wait for it £150.00 to £200.00. So prices have increased. Did anyone see that original 301 still in it's plastic and box on ebay, I think the final figure was something like £2450.00? Now that is a big price increase, when you think how much you could get them for a few years ago.

Natalie;)

[anthonyTD]

Vortexion 'CBL7' anyone please, i've only been hunting for one for 15 years now :(
Hi Andre,
i have one under my dogs bowl,:eyebrows: just kidding, good to see you posting again.:)
Anthony,TD...

[Beobloke]

I've done a little more research and it would seem that for the YD5 there were four versions:

YD5A (speeds: 7.5, 3.75, 1.875 ips)
YD5AH (speeds: 15 and 7.5 ips)
YD5B (speeds: 7.5, 3.75, 1.875 ips)
YD5BH (speeds: 15 and 7.5 ips)

It's not clear the difference between suffix "A" models and those having suffix "B". It's possible the "A" versions were portable machines, whereas the "B" were rack mountable models.

Can't find a reference to a "YD5D".

All came with steel cases and were "intended for those engaged in scientific and industrial pursuits."

Thanks very much for the information!

Both the YD5D and the 532 were my uncle's and both were in the steel cases. I wonder how he came by them?

[synsei]

I don't think anyone would disagree with the Garrards and the 124. What other turntables would make it into the classic category?
LP12, Lenco, Gyro, Transcriptor, Sp-10 maybe. SL-1210? Na. It's just too effin' ugly. :lol:

On a personal note, the 1200/1210 isn't a classic because it is still contemporary and relevant despite its age. It is a bit good though :)

nb: As the black mask finally snicks into place, the sound of laboured breath emanates from a grill to the front of the mask. A familiar Scottish voice announces "Well done my young padawan, you have joined us on the dark side..." :D

[griffo104]

I think a real classic is the 401, and we have both the 301 and the 401. The 401 is using the 3009 and sound superb. A great classic combination. I also think the Thorens TD124 is asnother a classic. Mind you these are just my opinion.

Natalie;)

When I bought my LP12 the guy selling it had got a 301 and was using a 3009 to keep the vintage feel to it. He'd built his own plinth for the 301 and listening to it when I went to pick the LP12 up was a wonderful experience.

However, there's no doubt that decks like the Garrards, Lenco and Thorens benefit from being replinthed and tweaked with some modern thinking and materials to really get the best out of them. Once you do that you can really appreciate the quality of the deck itself.

[griffo104]

On a personal note, the 1200/1210 isn't a classic because it is still contemporary and relevant despite its age. It is a bit good though :)

nb: As the black mask finally snicks into place, the sound of laboured breath emanates from a grill to the front of the mask. A familiar Scottish voice announces "Well done my young padawan, you have joined us on the dark side..." :D

There's such a thing a as a modern classic you know :eyebrows:

Whether I personally like the Technics deck is not the pont, the fact they sold in such quantities for a job and subsequently have been picked up and used for more domestic purposes shows that the deck deserves a certain classic status

If the deck wasn't fit for purpose than it wouldn't have been the choice of DJs for untold numbers of years - who I'm sure regard the deck as a classic

[Dingdong]

If the deck wasn't fit for purpose than it wouldn't have been the choice of DJs for untold numbers of years - who I'm sure regard the deck as a classic

Dj's get to use it in the dark. I used to turn the lights off when I used my old one. Doesn't sound any better. It just looks a lot better in the dark. Bit like me really.

[griffo104]

Dj's get to use it in the dark. I used to turn the lights off when I used my old one. Doesn't sound any better. It just looks a lot better in the dark. Bit like me really.

Ah me too :lol:

[Dingdong]

So, moving on from turntables. What arms and cartridges would be considered classics?

You'd have to have the SME 3009. Owt else you'd consider?

For cartridges maybe the Decca's, SPU's, Shure V series. Troika maybe.

How's about QED 79 for classic cable?

[griffo104]

I'm wouldn't know a classic cart if it bit me on the bum - all my carts have very much been modern ones.

I think the RB300 is a classic arm, allowed so many people on a budget to get a decent deck and spend money on an arm later, in fact some never did. It's only fairly recently that other affordable options have become available.

I think the Hadcock has be in there as well, even if some of the older versions look like they would fall apart if you tried to actually use them to play a record.

[Dingdong]

I'd have to agree with you on the Hadcock. Mine does look as though it might fall to bits if you look at it funny.
Sounds bloody marvelous with my Shure VST V though.

Just got to get the Hadcock mounted on the SP-10 in time for Scalford. have been saying that for a few weeks though. Time to pull me finger out.

Not sure if the Rega can be counted as a classic yet. It certainly seems to be the SME 3009 of the future, though.

[griffo104]

I'd have to agree with you on the Hadcock. Mine does look as though it might fall to bits if you look at it funny.
Sounds bloody marvelous with my Shure VST V though.

Just got to get the Hadcock mounted on the SP-10 in time for Scalford. have been saying that for a few weeks though. Time to pull me finger out.

Not sure if the Rega can be counted as a classic yet. It certainly seems to be the SME 3009 of the future, though.

I wouldn't argue about the RB300, tbh. Thing is if you look at the last 25 odd years there hasn't been many affordable arms out there that could do such a good job, in fact thinking about the only competitor was the RB250.

I tried to get a Hadcock a few years ago - still got the armboard for my Orbe which I did manage to buy - but costs of it shot up and then other bits of hifi spending got in the way.

thinking of carts, again it's not one that I enjoy but probably a classic, would be the Denon DL103 - to last this long especially when CD came marching over the horizon and to still be so cheap today takes some doing.

[Dingdong]

Forgot about the 103. Older Hadcocks do come up on ebay now and then. I got mine for £140 with the SME adaptor plate which makes getting armboards easier.
I think Hifi Emporium are selling one on ebay for £250. About the same price as a good 3009, but way better imho.
I really fancy trying a Hadcock 242 with fancy wiring, but my bank account says no :(

[griffo104]

I stopped using Ebay after some nice Nigerians bought about 50 mobile phones for me.

I've heard an Incognito'd 242 - it's very nice and the build quality is better on the later arms. My bank balance would laugh at me if I tried to buy something like that at the moment :(

Although for me on the Orbe at least the best arm I've heard was the Moerch DP6, with a Lyra Helikon on it. Not sure if the Moerch arms can be called a classic but that combo that day was very special.

[StanleyB]

Classic arms are the Micro Seiki MA-505MKI, Dynavector DV-505, Technics EPA-100, SME-3009.

[nat8808]

I propose a slightly different theory as to what makes a classic.

Not everything that is good and old becomes a classic in the everyone-agrees-its-a-classic sense.

I think it has to go through a certain,kind of social, process of :

1) Once being relatively common and well regarded in its day

2) Be dismissed as old hat as technology moves on

3) Be used by dad/grandad (mum/grandma) as they resist change and hark on about it being good

4) Become cheap and a 'sleeper' by people in the know and in underground, do-things-on-the-cheap-but-don't-let-on kind of hifi world

5) Slowly people cotton on and word gets around that it's good value against new stuff

6) becomes sought-after and more popular

7) Becomes even more sought-after by everyone and their dog and prices rocket and people start providing upgrades and restoration services

8) People who used to spend thousands on the latest gear now spend the same thousands on a reconditioned or NOS version with all the other classics that go with it.


I think it has to go through a similar process as that to be widely accepted as a classic.

If it doesn't have the provenance of being used by grandad for years then it doesn't quite get the confirmation of greatness that people need to trust other's opinions. If it's rare, it's hard to become a classic as people rely on word-of-mouth experiences - unless there's someone or a few who make a big enough noise.

The internet has accelerated the last bit which might explain why the usual 301,124, Tannoys etc are so popular because they kind of had a long time to brew before the internet came along - they were getting popular before that.

Some other things that get raved about these days don't always take hold because the internet makes people a bit flitty and unable to trust their own ears - get a few doubters on a new trend and people reject and move to the next.

The internet is one massive positive feedback loop on whatever's popular. That's what humans do when communication becomes easy - same with investment bubbles etc etc.

[bogle111]

Classic arms are the Micro Seiki MA-505MKI, Dynavector DV-505, Technics EPA-100, SME-3009.

Stax UA-7, SME 3012? EPA-100 & Dynavector are great Classics I think. The SME-3009 is a classic design, but never viewed it as a classic great performer.

[RobHolt]

I think the Mission 774 should be on any list.

Rob

[StanleyB]

The SME-3009 is a classic design, but never viewed it as a classic great performer.
Totally agree.
I forgot to add to my list the HS-100. But it's so rare, few would know what it even looks like.

[bogle111]

Totally agree.
I forgot to add to my list the HS-100. But it's so rare, few would know what it even looks like.

Yes, the Alphason. For Design I may add the Ittock and the Decca International (ugly as s**t but a 301 made it look modern!). The AT1100/XK50 looked great classic design but too limiting for cart.

I am beginning to put some things down as Vintage and others as Classic Design. For instance, a Dansette is Vintage as is a 124, Classic is more Design Council stuff that is almost timeless in appearance and could almost be made today, like an SP10.

Regards
Pete

[Rare Bird]

Syrinx 'PU3'..Zeta..Helius 'Orion'..Alphason 'HR-100' (S/MCS)..
Logic 'DM101'..The Pink Triangle TT..Alphason 'Sonata'..Luxman 'PD300'..

[Barry]

Stax UA-7, SME 3012? EPA-100 & Dynavector are great Classics I think. The SME-3009 is a classic design, but never viewed it as a classic great performer.

The Stax UA-7 never achieved the acoustic performance commensurate with the appearance and build quality.

With the non-"Improved" SME arms (i.e. those with the steel knife edge bearings) now commanding £1000 (for the 3012) and £300 (for the 3009) on the second-hand market, there are many out there who would disagree with you.

[bogle111]

The Stax UA-7 never achieved the acoustic performance commensurate with the appearance and build quality.

With the non-"Improved" SME arms (i.e. those with the steel knife edge bearings) now commanding £1000 (for the 3012) and £300 (for the 3009) on the second-hand market, there are many out there who would disagree with you.

I have two 3012's (one boxed), one came off 124II's that I sent to Nagaoka Japan (preferred to 301, but decided I would never return to 124's) in the '80's that I like and consider excellent performers. The "Improved" was primarily to be matched with light tracking cartridges like the Shure and others that were coming out at the time.

It is the Improved that I do not consider a great performer because of its' limitations. Again, I have one here that will go with a V15III. These two would be considered a "Classic combination". The 3009 non Imp. is a good arm, I agree.

The Stax UA-7 is a very underrated arm and one that can handle a good MC, like a Supex or a Koetsu very well. The UA-7 has never achieved the widespread recognition it deserved at least in Europe, but it is a sleeper under the radar, IMO and a very worthy contender. Just don't put it on a suspended belt drive. Individually, it is a superior arm to the 3009 Imp. IMO, that can handle a wider range of cartridges. I have never considered market price as a guide to performance or to my own "desirability" factor.

I also have a (boxed) PU3 going onto an Oracle Delphi which I consider highly, though design wise looks a tad industrial, though an excellent performer. I am sitting here looking at the RB300 that design wise, is neither Vintage nor Classic (Ugly duckling springs to mind), but again, not a bad performer.

Anyone here got a UA-7?

[Barry]

Hello Peter,

Like you I have several SME Series II arms (both 9" and 12") which I use on any of my three 124/II turntables. All have steel knife edge bearings and they are the most versatile of the arms I own, as well as being the easiest to set up.

Sorry, I don't think the Stax UA-7 is an outstanding arm - none of Stax's designs were. The Fidelity Research FR-64 and FR-66 were much superior.

I don't think market price is the ultimate arbiter of performance, but the fact that people (usually Japanese) are willing to pay large sums would indicate SME arms are desirable, and it's not just for their 'retro' looks.



My list of classic arms would be:

Alphason HR 100
Audio Technica AT 1503 III
Audio & Design M9BA (later called the Keith Monks M9BA)
Breuer Dynamic Type 5A and Type 9
Decca International (early model) and the original ffss
EMT 929
Ortofon RMG 212 and RMG 309
SME 3009 and 3012 (both Series I and II)
Zeta

Regards

[chelsea]

Syrinx 'PU3'..Zeta..Helius 'Orion'..Alphason 'HR-100' (S/MCS)..
Logic 'DM101'..The Pink Triangle TT..Alphason 'Sonata'..Luxman 'PD300'..

Have the mk 3 version.
Was shocked to see how much these were compared to other arms in the 80's.
Was just flicking through a hi fi book.

Would defo stick the fedility research arms in.

[Rare Bird]

We could go on all day.. I liked the Mission 'Mechanic' aswell..

[smalleyexy]

At the same time, you can pick the turntable, peanuts, and now they go and wait for it £ 150.00 pounds 200.00. The price is rising. No one has seen, 301 is still in its plastic box on eBay, I think the final figure is the source of similar goods UK Price: £ 2450.00?