Cryogenic treatment

[realysm42]

Anyone sent their cables away for this?

I mean all cable types, not just speaker wire. Not really considering it, I may do in future.

Anything to report back?

How do they manage it without the plastic/rubber components perishing?

[YNWaN]

If you wanted to, you could easily do your own cryogenic treatment by buying dry ice - this place will send it mail-order to you - 10kg is £35 - that should be enough to do every cable in anybodys hi-fi.

http://www.iceimmediate.com/dry_ice.php

[realysm42]

Not sure if serious...

[YNWaN]

What do you mean - you aren't sure if I'm serious or you aren't serious? I'm quite serious - dry ice is exactly what cryogenic treatment companies use - put your cable in a sealed plastic bag, put it into a bucket and cover with dry ice pellets. leave for a few minutes, take it out and allow to return to room temperature - job done, cryogenicaly treated stuff.

I wouldn't bother myself.

[Marco]

Don't forget the essential weevil fluff.

Marco.

[realysm42]

I wasn't sure if your'e serious about the method you mentioned, but I appreciate it.

Okay, it might be exactly what the companies do, but I'm sure they'd have a more controlled/effective method that works to a particular standard. Of course I could be speaking out of my bottom here.

You wouldn't bother, have you heard the difference it can make? I haven't and am curious to.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I thought it was meant to be returned back to room temperature as slowly as possible once the freezing takes place.

[Ali Tait]

If you wanted to, you could easily do your own cryogenic treatment by buying dry ice - this place will send it mail-order to you - 10kg is £35 - that should be enough to do every cable in anybodys hi-fi.

http://www.iceimmediate.com/dry_ice.php

They are diddling folk then. Dry ice is about -78c, cryogenic temperatures start at -150c or so.

[YNWaN]

I thought it was meant to be returned back to room temperature as slowly as possible once the freezing takes place.

Then put it in the freezer and then in the fridge.


They are diddling folk then.

Surely not....

(you can buy liquid nitrogen on eBay)

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well.....err.......yes

[Ali Tait]

Then put it in the freezer and then in the fridge.



Surely not....

(you can buy liquid nitrogen on eBay)

:D

[Marco]

cryogenic temperatures start at -150c or so.

Aye, like a night out in Dunfermline!

Marco.

[Wakefield Turntables]

can anyone with hand on heart say that they can tell an audible difference with cryogenically treated cables :scratch:

[realysm42]

Well.....err.......yes

Help me out, being completely uneducated in the matter lol.

[DaveK]

I'm with Ali on this one - putting cables in dry ice will be as effective as putting it in cold water - sodding useless, with all due respect. For effective treatment (altering the grain structure) you need to get it down to as close to absolute zero (-267 deg C) as possible and for as long as possible.
I had my pure silver analogue i/cs and speaker cables done (properly :) ) over a long weekend and I can't say I noticed any significant difference - I was expecting some, knowing a little about metallurgy, but could not persuade myself that it was any different.
Save your money would be my advice but YMMV.
Dave.

[Marco]

can anyone with hand on heart say that they can tell an audible difference with cryogenically treated cables :scratch:

Never tried it with cables, but it definitely works on valves!

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Funny you should say that, I've got a PP EL34 amp that came with cryo Shuguang valves. I thought I'd try some NOS, and bought a set of RFT's from a member here to have a go with. They are nice, but the Shuguangs are better. Not the result I was expecting. not really comparing like for like I know, maybe I should buy a set of normal Shuguangs to compare properly. I did expect the NOS valves to be better though.

[brian2957]

I sent a pair of Home Grown Audio interconnects for cryo treatment a few years ago and in my opinion it had a detrimental effect. I sold them soon after.
Not for me I'm afraid.
Brian.

[chelsea]

Spend your money on music.

[realysm42]

Interesting to hear the feedback so far, sounds more negative than positive!

Sterling advice Stu :D

[Alex_UK]

Spend your money on music.

Or beer/wine - then everything sounds better - although the effect is temporary! ;)

[realysm42]

I don't drink, but I remember. Alcohol and drum and bass is a dangerous mix ha ha :D

[Marco]

Hi Ali,


Funny you should say that, I've got a PP EL34 amp that came with cryo Shuguang valves. I thought I'd try some NOS, and bought a set of RFT's from a member here to have a go with. They are nice, but the Shuguangs are better. Not the result I was expecting. not really comparing like for like I know, maybe I should buy a set of normal Shuguangs to compare properly. I did expect the NOS valves to be better though.

Interesting...

I've never compared cryo'd new stock valves with NOS. I'd expect the results of that one to vary, depending on how good the NOS valves are, and whether the cryo'd ones have been treated properly - or indeed if they have been treated at all! ;)

But.... I've always found cryo'd new stock valves to sound way better than non-cryo'd ones of the same type, as the process really opens up the sound, as well as removing an edginess and 'grit', which to my ears is always present with new stock valves, especially Russian ones.

For example, I've not found any non-cryo'd Electro Harmonix valves I could live with yet - they're nasty, horrible, toppy sounding things! :spew:

What's essential about the whole thing with cryo-treatment, is that you must use a supplier you can trust, and crucially, be able to accurately measure the 'before and after' effect.

What Anthony TD does is measures certain parameters of valves before they go for cryo-treatment, and then when they come back, measures those same parameters again (knowing exactly what to look for). And if they've genuinely been cryo'd, they'll measure differently from what they did before - and also sound different when plugged into equipment... This of course also proves that the cryo treatment is definitely doing something.

That's what Anthony does with all the cryo'd valves he sells, so you can be guaranteed that the process has been successfully and effectively applied!

Difficult to do that, however, with cables....

Marco.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I sent a pair of Home Grown Audio interconnects for cryo treatment a few years ago and in my opinion it had a detrimental effect. I sold them soon after.
Not for me I'm afraid.
Brian.

Cant have been that beneficial if you sold them! :lol:

[MartinT]

I disliked a recent pair of Kimber KS-1121 XLR cables I bought. They should have sounded like an old set I have - very transparent - but they didn't. I scratched my head over this until I noticed in the order details that Russ Andrews cryo treats all high end cables now. It's the only difference I can think of and I don't like the result, which promotes a hardness of tone and sibilance. I sold it.

[realysm42]

Well, I'm glad I asked, got some custom cables made for me by a mate and I don't think they'll be having any treatments soon :)

[brian2957]

Cant have been that beneficial if you sold them! :lol:
Not to me Andrew . I sold them at a loss :doh:
Brian.

[brian2957]

I disliked a recent pair of Kimber KS-1121 XLR cables I bought. They should have sounded like an old set I have - very transparent - but they didn't. I scratched my head over this until I noticed in the order details that Russ Andrews cryo treats all high end cables now. It's the only difference I can think of and I don't like the result, which promotes a hardness of tone and sibilance. I sold it.

That was my opinion too Martin . I tried burning the HGAs in for a few days but this didn't change anything . They had to go after that.
Brian.

[MartinT]

Interesting, Brian - I've never heard anyone else speak badly of the treatment and thought it was just me.

[DaveK]

Well, I'm glad I asked, got some custom cables made for me by a mate and I don't think they'll be having any treatments soon :)

Well, don't keep it to yourself, were all here (in this forum) to help each other :)

[realysm42]

Not sure I follow?

[MartinT]

Dave means he wants to know what the custom cables are :)

[realysm42]

Oh right!

They're a pair of 3m bi-wire cables. I'm not sure what grade of copper they are but they are top notch my friend tells me (he works as an engineer at a loudspeaker company). Not sure if the numbers are right, but he said there's a total of 1,600 cores of copper amongst both the cables, I take it that's a good thing?

I've never seen such a thick cable! With the insualtion included, they're about an inch thick! All terminated with Black Rhodium banana plugs. The copper is so thick ampside that I had to get their sideways entry plugs, to accommodate the 10mm or so of copper.

The sound: well I don't know how to use the "pretty" words to describe them, but I've been using QED silver stuff for years (I knew even less then, I bought it because it was silver lol) and I could instantly tell a difference.

Everything was more relaxed and natural sounding, instruments that didn't exist before came out of nowhere and there's so much more space between every element of music it's untrue. One thing I've notied is things like pianos and strings breathe more and reverberate away happily when told to, they didn't before and the attack on music is fast, guitars are played with urgency now!I sat back with a stupid grin on my face, all of my music sounds better so I've got lots of liestening to do :)

I've got a picture of it on my phone, I'll upload it soon.

I'm very happy with this upgrade and I' would recommend it if commercially available, I won't be upgrading for some time and only then it'll be to Tellerium (will take me about 5 years to save for it!).

[MCRU]

I thought it was meant to be returned back to room temperature as slowly as possible once the freezing takes place.

Exactly, that is why you can cryo treat a cable including the heatshrink and plugs etc because a proper cryo treatment takes 5 days to do properly!

It works, no doubt about it, here is a short paper (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/CRYO.pdf) about the process.

Even CD's sound better, anybody who wants to try it for themselves post me a few CD's and I will get them done for you.

[MartinT]

It works, no doubt about it, here is a short paper (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/CRYO.pdf) about the process.

So David, are you saying you hear an improvement in cables that have been cryogenically treated?

[MCRU]

No doubt about it, as it happens I sent my ultimate cable off some time ago for a customer who wanted it cryo treating, I sent 10 metres away and sold him 8 metres and kept 2 for myself, it is now at Mk II because the cryo treatment makes it sound much better.

You did mention they sounded good in a thread once, they sound even better now!

CD's benefit enormously.

[Ali Tait]

How much to get some cd's done David?

[MCRU]

How much to get some cd's done David?

Well Russ Abbott charges £2.60 per CD, I charge £1.75 (been doing it for friends for ages) but not had time to offer it as a service.

It was featured in HI-Fi world some time ago and DP did say there was an improvement.

[Ali Tait]

Cheers. A cheap way to try it methinks, to see what,if any difference.

[MCRU]

Cheers. A cheap way to try it methinks, to see what,if any difference.

I cannot think of a cheaper tweak!

[realysm42]

"Can of worms time"

Surely if all the cd has is digital information on it, how can changing the state it's stored in alter the sound, for better or worse?

[chelsea]

Some people swore they sounded better if put in the freezer.

[realysm42]

This is the kind of thing that would wind Welder up, I reckon.

I'm not emotional about it but I stand by my question :D

[MCRU]

Simple really, for the measly sum of a couple of quid, get one done and report back!

[MartinT]

The problem with cryo treatment for cables is that I'm not really prepared to try it again. It rendered my previous favourite cable, Kimber Select, harsh and shouty and I'm now moving over to Tellurium Q which are superb. I don't think it's for me. If anyone is going to submit their treasured cable for cryo treatment then I suggest one only and have another exact non-treated copy available for comparison afterwards.

[MCRU]

Its not a problem Martin as you can always carry on as you are and listen and enjoy, cryo treatment has been around for decades, it is used in various parts of industry, even golf clubs get cryo treated! :)

[Marco]

If anyone is going to submit their treasured cable for cryo treatment then I suggest one only and have another exact non-treated copy available for comparison afterwards.

Or even better, do it with some el-cheapo cables you've got that sound shite, and see whether, after some cryo treating, they come back sounding any less shite - or perhaps even listenable! ;)

Should that be the case, chances are it will work with your treasured ones....

Marco.

[Macca]

Or even better, do it with some el-cheapo cables you've got that sound shite, and see whether, after some cryo treating, they come back sounding any less shite - or perhaps even listenable! ;)

.

Break out the QED Silver Anniversary!

[MCRU]

Or even better, do it with some el-cheapo cables you've got that sound shite, and see whether, after some cryo treating, they come back sounding any less shite - or perhaps even listenable! ;)

Should that be the case, chances are it will work with your treasured ones....

Marco.

Well put Boss:)

[realysm42]

@Dave, I listen to all of my cds ripped, not live so am skeptical, but I might just give it a go :)

[DaveK]

I have a 3 CD set of el cheapo 60s music of which I have got two copies (don't ask, old age ;) ). I would be quite happy to have one set cryo treated and do listening trials and see if I can hear differences. Might also be a good idea to try the green marker pen round the edge tweak at the same time, providing it can be removed afterwards, or any other non destructive and reversible tweaks.
Then, having reported my findings/hearings I'd be happy to pass both sets on to other interested parties to see what they can perceive, so long as they are all kept together and returned in good condition.
So how much would it cost me to have one 3 CD set properly cryo treated?
Dave.

[realysm42]

With regards to the green pen trick, wouldn't it have to be a specific shade of green and ink type?

Here's the cables, if anyone's interested in looking:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Image0640-1.jpg

Shame I didn't put anything there for scale, they are 3m pairs, easily an inch thick.

[realysm42]

Mods delete this post please, just working out picture placement on the board.

[anthonyTD]

Hi all,
i have been involved with the cryo treatment process since the early 2000's and can tell you that when carried out correctly, i say again,,, WHEN CARRIED OUT CORRECTLY, it can and regularly does yield positive results on almost everything subjected to its treatment.
Anthony,TD...

[realysm42]

It'd be interesting to know where people had it carried out, not to name and shame but see if there's a trend with people's disappointment and the techniques employed, would thi sbe frowned upon?

For example, I'm pretty sure sticking your cables with bags of dry ice in a cupboard or whatever isn't going to yield the same results as the professional 5 day treatment, but who knows?

[Marco]

Lol... Dry ice isn't anywhere near cold enough for the job!! Anyone daft enough to try that would be as well sticking to ice lollies! :lol: :mental:

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

It'd be interesting to know where people had it carried out, not to name and shame but see if there's a trend with people's disappointment and the techniques employed, would thi sbe frowned upon?

For example, I'm pretty sure sticking your cables with bags of dry ice in a cupboard or whatever isn't going to yield the same results as the professional 5 day treatment, but who knows?
Hi Martin,
Frozen Solid have a good reputation for consistency and correct aplication not only in the audio industry, but also in the automotive field.
Anthony,TD...

[DaveK]

Hi all,
i have been involved with the cryo treatment process since the early 2000's and can tell you that when carried out correctly, i say again,,, WHEN CARRIED OUT CORRECTLY, it can and regularly does yield positive results on almost everything subjected to its treatment.
Anthony,TD...

And I've been in the metallurgical industry since I started work in 1955 (honest :lol: ), studied it to a high level and been involved with it using cryogenic treatment as part of a manufacturing process for even longer than Martin (ner :ner: ) and would confirm all that he says. As an example it is routinely used by aero engine maufacturers to improve the properties of their hot end components, including those that rotate at supersonic speeds - hardly something they would risk if there was any chance it would decrease their mechanical properties and hardly something they would pay for unless their engineers were convinced (by testing to destruction, not opinions and gut feelings) that it does improve the integrity of the product.
Another example: - it is routinely used by F1 companies to improve the integrity of their highly stressed rotating gear box innards.
Having said that, I had my pure silver analogue i/cs and speaker cables treated in the same batch as some F1 components and I genuinely could not perceive any improvements in SQ.
Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance ;) .
Dave.

[Marco]

And I've been in the metallurgical industry since I started work in 1955 (honest :lol:)

I thought it was more like 1905! :D

;)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Nah, he was doing his apprenticeship then!

[DaveK]

FWIW my i/cs and speaker cables were treated by Cryogenic Treatment Services Ltd., aka www.195below.co.uk
Dave.

[chelsea]

And I've been in the metallurgical industry since I started work in 1955 (honest :lol: ), studied it to a high level and been involved with it using cryogenic treatment as part of a manufacturing process for even longer than Martin (ner :ner: ) and would confirm all that he says. As an example it is routinely used by aero engine maufacturers to improve the properties of their hot end components, including those that rotate at supersonic speeds - hardly something they would risk if there was any chance it would decrease their mechanical properties and hardly something they would pay for unless their engineers were convinced (by testing to destruction, not opinions and gut feelings) that it does improve the integrity of the product.
Another example: - it is routinely used by F1 companies to improve the integrity of their highly stressed rotating gear box innards.Having said that, I had my pure silver analogue i/cs and speaker cables treated in the same batch as some F1 components and I genuinely could not perceive any improvements in SQ.
Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance ;) .
Dave.

My cousin designs the gear box for F1 mclaren.
Will have a chat with him next time i meet up.

[DaveK]

I thought it was more like 1905!



Nah, he was doing his apprenticeship then!

And this used to be such a friendly forum!!!:lol:

[Ali Tait]

:D

[brian2957]

I have no doubt that cryo treatment changes the characteristics if cables . Mine's was done by one of the few companies who offer this service . The actual service from the company was excellent TBH and they did what I asked them to do . My point is that the cryo treatment changed the cables in a way which I didn't like and which didn't work in my particular system .Others may like the end result and it may produce positive results in their system . Dare I say it , system synergy may also come into play here .
Brian.

[anthonyTD]

I have no doubt that cryo treatment changes the characteristics if cables . Mine's was done by one of the few companies who offer this service . The actual service from the company was excellent TBH and they did what I asked them to do . My point is that the cryo treatment changed the cables in a way which I didn't like and which didn't work in my particular system .Others may like the end result and it may produce positive results in their system .
Dare I say it , system synergy may also come into play here also.
Brian.
Hi Brian,
you have hit the nail on the head there.:)
A...

[anthonyTD]

My cousin designs the gear box for F1 mclaren.
Will have a chat with him next time i meet up.
Interesting Stuart...
I know that some motorcycle engine blocks used for competition are cryo treated to increase their longevity and strength so it will be interesting to read what you come back with after speaking with your cousin.:)
Anthony,TD...

[chelsea]

Sure it will all go over my head anthony but will try my best to make some sense if they do use it.

[anthonyTD]

Sure it will all go over my head anthony but will try my best to make some sense if they do use it.
:)

[sq225917]

DaveK, do you know of any measurement to show differences in the electrical properties of materials subject to cryo treatment?

[DaveK]

DaveK, do you know of any measurement to show differences in the electrical properties of materials subject to cryo treatment?

sq, sadly I do not. My only interest was in what the treatment did for the mechanical properties, not just of the material per se but for the component itself, if you follow.
Dave.

[DaveK]

DaveK, do you know of any measurement to show differences in the electrical properties of materials subject to cryo treatment?

OTOH, you might get a little from this but it's not very informative really: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_treatment

Dave.

[AmpCity]

OTOH, you might get a little from this but it's not very informative really: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_treatment

Dave.

I would be interested in this too. In fact may get it done to one of our cables and measure the differences.

I understand it changes the physical properties of the metal, hence used in high-performance applications, but the question is whether the electrical properties differ. Resistance, inductance, and capacitance are the main issues, along with a few other concerns, when it comes to cables. It is quite conceivable these would change slightly; whether that change is audible is another matter...

Zain

[trio leo]

I have heard the difference cryo treatment can make with mains cables, speaker cables and even Quadraspire table legs.

As far as I'm aware Frozen Solid use liquid nitrogen which is -192 degrees and they take 3 days to bring it back to room temperature.
I get the impression the metalurgy guys posting on this thread accept cryo treatment alters the properties of the metal treated.

I sent off my Chord Rumour speaker cable and when it came back we did a direct comparison in the shop with untreated cable, it was obvious to the 3 of us the black bits were blacker and the pitch of the instruments was more defined and it took away a kind of veil making you want to turn it up a bit.

Apparently some musicians have their brass instruments cryo'd as it alters the tone of the instrument for the better.
I understand the scepticism, but I've tried it and I like what it did.

I'll now get into the stocks and await my punishment

regards Al

[MCRU]

cryo treatment is essential if you want the best

[YNWaN]

I am not aware of any evidence at all that cryo treatment has any impact on acrylic.