make it sound better

[snuffbox]

Some advice sought here.
I've been out of this hifi malarky for a long time now but having started getting back into it I'm now looking at a way of getting more out of my cd's.
My current player is a Roksan Rok dp1 top loading effort.I've had it for 15 years or so .Its been back to Roksan a couple of times for repair and on one occasion I think they did a clock upgrade to it.
The dac is an Orelle d180,again I've had that for about 15 years.
Now I rather like the cd player for its quirky looks,the dac looks like a nondescript box,good in its day but I've been told dacs have come on a bit.
Music I listen to pretty much encompasses mos genres except hippity hoppity chav crap.
So some ideas please,second hand is always better for me.

[Alex_UK]

What's your budget Paul, and are you interested in USB input to pursue computer audio, or just SPDIF?

[snuffbox]

Haven't really thought about usb,I suppose that would come under streaming or some such.
I know nowt about that but it would be better not to discount that as a source.
As to price ,haven't a clue what these things cost these days.
Max of about £400 I suppose.

[The Grand Wazoo]

There are going to be plenty of cheap DAC's floating around AoS shortly. I should think a used Stan DAC might give you a glimpse of how things have moved on for a very reasonable price. You never know, that may turn out to be all you want or need. If you decide later to get something better, you could keep it for a second system attached to your computer.

[Spur07]

for that budget your best bet is to go down the computer audio route, you'll be amazed what you can achieve with a HD based system, and the convenience is brilliant.

[snuffbox]

Whats a standac

[Jonboy]

Here's his latest project

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14017

And a link

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/main/main.html

[The Grand Wazoo]

Stan Beresford (a well known loiterer round these parts) is about to launch his latest dac & it seems like a lot of folks might be interested in it, so I thought you could buy one of the many dacs that will no doubt be on the AoS market (many of them are likely to be Beresfords) as a cheap peek into what a modern dac can do. I'm talking about £100 or less.
Just an idea.

[snuffbox]

Thanks for that GW,appreciated

[snuffbox]

I'll be waiting till April I think.:)

[Ali Tait]

Not much to touch this at the price or considerably more IMHO -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Finished-2496-AK4396-CS8416-DAC-Transformer-case-/110712416420?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c6f968a4

Socketed opamp is easy to change too.

[Welder]

40 Hz to 15kHz, SPDIF only :eek:

Bargain if yer deaf.:lol:

[DaveK]

Not much to touch this at the price or considerably more IMHO -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Finished-2496-AK4396-CS8416-DAC-Transformer-case-/110712416420?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c6f968a4

Socketed opamp is easy to change too.

Hi Ali,
Have you noticed that in the listing title it says 24/96 but in the description it says 24/192? I have been advised that one of the major components in it is limited to 24/96. I have one such and am passing on what I was told - I know nowt :) .
Dave.

[Ali Tait]

40 Hz to 15kHz, SPDIF only :eek:

Bargain if yer deaf.:lol:

:lol: Figures must be worse 20 to 20! I have one of these, and also the valve dac Nick built me, which is easily the best dac I've had in my system. The board itself is only £20. you can't go wrong for that price.

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,
Have you noticed that in the listing title it says 24/96 but in the description it says 24/192? I have been advised that one of the major components in it is limited to 24/96. I have one such and am passing on what I was told - I know nowt :) .
Dave.

Dunno Dave, the Touch is limited to 24/96 anyway, so not an issue for me.

[bobbasrah]

Dunno Dave, the Touch is limited to 24/96 anyway, so not an issue for me.

24/96 is fine as it will be maxing out almost everything available. Think I have maybe 1 or 2 at 192 that were made at the time to test the DAC, but the file size is huge and no audible advantage or difference I could find....
Some wag will be along shortly to note that a better resolving system would clearly demonstrate it, power cable A, amp B, interconnect C, power conditioner D, re-mortgage the flat, etc., but there always will be....;)

[Ali Tait]

Yes, I have a couple of 192's. I couldn't detect any difference either, and I tried four different dacs..

[dave2010]

:lol: Figures must be worse 20 to 20! I have one of these, and also the valve dac Nick built me, which is easily the best dac I've had in my system. The board itself is only £20. you can't go wrong for that price.You and Dave seem to speak highly of this. What's Welder/John up to? Has he heard one?

The board is presumably the cheap one which when added to all the bits gets the price up to close on £500 if we make it in this country. Having a good ready made one imported at under £100 seems worthwhile.

[Ali Tait]

Yes, gets pricey when you add box, transformers and a valve output stage. See this thread -

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13204

[bobbasrah]

Yes, gets pricey when you add box, transformers and a valve output stage. See this thread -

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13204

Maybe so Ali, but to be fair, pricey compared to what? :scratch:
You and Nick have taken what is effectively a cheap DAC and implemented a valve stage on the audio side with minimal modification to the original DAC, and produced a combination at a fraction of what a commercial equivalent would cost. :D
That speaks volumes for the kit or the built version at their respective prices...:cool:

[Welder]

You and Dave seem to speak highly of this. What's Welder/John up to? Has he heard one?

The board is presumably the cheap one which when added to all the bits gets the price up to close on £500 if we make it in this country. Having a good ready made one imported at under £100 seems worthwhile.

I haven't heard it Dave.

I'm a bit wary of Dac kits having bought my TP Buffalo mainly on a number a rave reviews only to find in its basic configuration to my ears at least, it wasn't all that really.
Changing the USB input module has helped and rumour has it a decent valve output stage makes a noticeable difference.

By the time you factor in these changes, a case, all the connectors, wires, etc any changes needed to the various ways of supplying power and of course the time, I'm not convinced some kits are quite the bargains they may initially seem.

[bobbasrah]

A strange thing to say John, or maybe you are referring to the Buffalo mods. Compared to the Buffalo kit for someone starting off, would this package not be a bargain in kit form, and VFM ready built?

Modifications and enhancement can add up for sure, but the cost of that is compared to what pricetag on the UK commercial market?
It is still cheaper I would suggest, and the choice is yours whether it is worth it.

I think Tony heard this DAC at Ali's place and was favourably impressed.....

[Welder]

I say lots of strange stuff Bob. ;)
I was talking about the Buffalo primarily but as an illustration of what can happen if you buy a kit, even if many people recommend it highly.


A bargain is only a bargain (ready built or kit) if it sounds good in your system.
My Buffalo got lots of rave reviews but then so do many other bits of kit I have subsequently heard and not been overly impressed with.

I mean no disrespect to anyone but your just asking for trouble making purchase decisions on the recommendations of others.
If you can send this particular item back if it turns out to be unsuitable then sure, take a punt. ;)

[bobbasrah]

No worries John, and yes, your points are all good and fair comment.

Not sure what the Orelle would be like that Paul has, but it was rather on the selective and expensive end of the market in it's day, so have to guess it's modern counterpart would be a Young DAC or better....

[snuffbox]

The Orelle is rather old technology by todays standards so I think I may well wait until April and get one of the new Beresford dacs.
Mind you age doesn't mean anything really.Some of the best sounding stuff I heard at a hifi show years ago was all old stuff that had been refurbished

[dave2010]

Maybe so Ali, but to be fair, pricey compared to what? :scratch:
You and Nick have taken what is effectively a cheap DAC and implemented a valve stage on the audio side with minimal modification to the original DAC, and produced a combination at a fraction of what a commercial equivalent would cost. :D
That speaks volumes for the kit or the built version at their respective prices...:cool:I think you have to be careful what you're looking at and comparing. I saw this or a similar board some while back, and thought it looked good value at under £30. When I contacted Ali about this I figured that to do all the mods and improvements to get it "into shape", as recommended by Nick, that it was going to cost probably at least £300, maybe £500.

The ready made one may still be good value at under £100, but it probably won't have anything like the sophistication of the tweaked models. So - what do you compare with? Maybe the model with all the tweaks done at, say £500 compares favourably with commercial ones at £1-3k, but I couldn't comment on that.

There are ready made DACs, such as the Schiit models, which Werner recommends which may be comparable at around £500 imported to the EU.

[bobbasrah]

I think you have to be careful what you're looking at and comparing. I saw this or a similar board some while back, and thought it looked good value at under £30. When I contacted Ali about this I figured that to do all the mods and improvements to get it "into shape", as recommended by Nick, that it was going to cost probably at least £300, maybe £500.

The ready made one may still be good value at under £100, but it probably won't have anything like the sophistication of the tweaked models. So - what do you compare with? Maybe the model with all the tweaks done at, say £500 compares favourably with commercial ones at £1-3k, but I couldn't comment on that.

There are ready made DACs, such as the Schiit models, which Werner recommends which may be comparable at around £500 imported to the EU.

Completely agree Dave, but if you are DIY capable, you can still build a fabulous DAC at a massive saving over it's commercial equivalent without having to solder SMD or do your own PCB design. :eyebrows:
If you just want a basic DAC, but one you can upgrade if you wish later, this is also possible, which is what I meant. Whether you would want to just tweak a few bits or go the Ali route for their respective improvements is all down to available funds and target quality.:D

Agreed, Schiit seems to be gaining a very good reputation all right, but not sure what the price was/is... Werner is the ideal guy to comment on that and where it fits re the competition....:cool:

[Ali Tait]

I think you have to be careful what you're looking at and comparing. I saw this or a similar board some while back, and thought it looked good value at under £30. When I contacted Ali about this I figured that to do all the mods and improvements to get it "into shape", as recommended by Nick, that it was going to cost probably at least £300, maybe £500.

The ready made one may still be good value at under £100, but it probably won't have anything like the sophistication of the tweaked models. So - what do you compare with? Maybe the model with all the tweaks done at, say £500 compares favourably with commercial ones at £1-3k, but I couldn't comment on that.

There are ready made DACs, such as the Schiit models, which Werner recommends which may be comparable at around £500 imported to the EU.

Dave, the built version gets surprisingly close to the valve output version Nick made for me. The board itself may be cheap, but the dac chip is used in some pricey kit, and newer versions of the chip are used by the likes of Esoteric, and it don't get much more expensive than that!

I have heard a fully modded board as per the diyaudio thread, and yes it is better, but not hugely so. You can get most of the way there just by swapping the S/PDIF input cap and putting in a better opamp (This is where mine is at the moment) Cost? A few quid, certasinly under a tenner.

Tony brought his Mdac over when he visited, and we both agreed the built version dac - about £60 with about another tenner for a cap and opamp - was better than the Mdac. That to me is serious VFM, even at the currently higher price. Don't let the low price fool you, this is a very capable dac, with a lovely analogue type sound, not harsh at all.

[wee tee cee]

Yes,
I reluctantly had to agree, my mf m1 dac was shaded by the chinese cheapy (£400 VS £60)...hundred quid spdif and v link not withstanding. It definitely had a warmer organic/ analogue sound, very enjoyable and neutral. The m1 can be a bit bright and digital sounding at times. Myself and Ali had a crackin time listening to half a dozen different dacs and some speaker wires. The consensus was that there's not a lot in it between good dacs, but there is subtle differences. I dont have the ability to modify the chinese dac myself but must endorse its ability.
Tony.

[Ali Tait]

Aye, it was a good day Tony, I was impressed with the Tellurium wires. BTW, the dac you heard was totally stock at the time.

[wee tee cee]

Aye, it was a good day Tony, I was impressed with the Tellurium wires. BTW, the dac you heard was totally stock at the time.

Feck.....might have to pull the trigger on one.....must resist......OH NO.....THE BOURBON IS MAKING MY FINGERS MOVE......

[Welder]

Yes,
The consensus was that there's not a lot in it between good dacs, but there is subtle differences.
Tony.


Whoa, steady Tony. I mean everybody knows there are massive differences between one Dac and another. ;)

You'll be joining me behind the sofa as a heretic if you're not careful. :doh:

[wee tee cee]

Just had a wee stand off with Louise, my good lady.... Isn't that the musical fidelity thing you have, why do you need another one.....You only have one pair of feet , how many pairs of shoes do you have................grim stare.............

[wee tee cee]

Bought one.....the double nugget I brought home earlier on cant have hurt.

[wee tee cee]

Whoa, steady Tony. I mean everybody knows there are massive differences between one Dac and another. ;)

You'll be joining me behind the sofa as a heretic if you're not careful. :doh:John,
Thats the price of honesty or pragmatism...our wee community seems to thrive on cutting through audio bullshit....I try to keep an open mind and trust my ears....
Tony.

[realysm42]

The ironic thing is, I found this forum by trying to find out what a dac is and then find out through this forum I could have got a better dac for a fraction of the price of what I've been waiting 2.5 months for and still not had delivered (M-dac).

I both love and hate you lot.

[Ali Tait]

Bought one.....the double nugget I brought home earlier on cant have hurt.

Let us know how you get on Tony. It does seem to take a fair while to run in, so bear that in mind.

[wee tee cee]

Ali,
I have learned my lesson burn in wise with headphones.......Give me a wee while and I will give my impressions as things progress......must admit I felt a wee bit better thinking the budget dac had been breathed on when it duffed up the mf......ho hum....just got to trust your ears.....let you know when I get it and start the burn in.
Tony.

[Ali Tait]

When I say a fair while, a lot of peeps have mooted 200+ hrs.