View Full Version : Mark Grant G2000HD
isuckedmandelsonslemons
28-01-2012, 14:57
Having used a pair of Mark Grant G1000s between my CD and Pre for a while and been very impressed, I was on the look out for a pair of G2000.
Spotted a pair of customer returned on Mark's site (500mm) for a bargain £125. Ordered them immediately and within a few hours received an apologetic email from Mark saying the cables I'd ordered were no longer available and I could either have a set of 1m cables or if I was prepared to wait a few days Mark would make up a set of cables to the shorter length. Same price as the ones I'd ordered.
As length is not an issue I went for the 1m set and they were in my grubby mitts the next day.
As many people have discovered, the G2000HD is a significant step up from the G1000HD. I don't know why that is but after just a couple of hours listening there is an obvious improvement in all areas. Next step is to get a pair of 2000s to run between pre and mono amps.
Aside from the system improvement, I just wanted to give a thumbs up for superb customer care. In these days of crap service it's great to know that people are looking after their customers as well as making great products at sensible prices. Thanks and well done Mark.
brian2957
28-01-2012, 15:54
Hi Harry , I've dealt with Mark a few times now and his cables have also proved to be a revelation in my system . I now use the G2000s in my system and they are fantastic. Also service has been exemplary . The guy is a true gentleman.
Brian.
Mark stepped into the breech to sort me out with a 1m G2000HD Coax digital cable, ordered very late Thursday night, here first thing this morning, (with updates every step of the way as usual.) Top service and fab products. Cheers Mark. :)
Just to bring the fanw@nk back down to earth, what is the objective difference in these darned plugs - and DON'T say it can't be measured, 'cos that's bollix IMO... I wasn't a fan of the standard plugs and one of the ones I had didn't like the Croft preamp sockets (Maplin style gold plated ones). The Neutrik ones as on the 1500HD work properly as they always do, but having had cheap-socket failures with locking WBT's pulling these apart, I really want to know WHY they supposedly sound better, as well as costing £100 more :rolleyes:
isuckedmandelsonslemons
28-01-2012, 18:57
Dave, I'm not technical in the slightest but I trust my ears. Better still I trust the ears of my eldest son who is a gifted musician and guitar teacher. I've been listening all day and gave swapped cables around and done blind tests with guitar boy. We both agree that the 2000s are not just better but MUCH better. Why that should be the case I have no idea.
PS My system isn't top end. Just half decent.
I don't trust my ears at all these days, since they change daily.. Not being at all disrespectful of your findings though :respect: but I'd love to know WHY, if you see what I mean :)
I really want to know WHY they supposedly sound better, as well as costing £100 more
In the case of the G2000HDs with silver WBTs (like wot I use), will the fact that they contain solid-silver conductors, which offer superior signal conductivity over copper, and that silver is much more expensive, do? ;)
The copper WBTs, on G2000HDs, work along similar principles of superior signal conductivity, through the use of the best materials, and also (as is the case with the silver WBTs), the elimination of eddy currents, together with the very important reduction of contact resistance. Have a read here:
http://wbt.de/index.php?id=77&backPID=77&tt_products=63
Eddy currents occur in metal components close to where alternating currents flow. These currents can result in major signal distortions. The WBT-0110 Ag is designed in such a way that eddy currents do not occur at all.
The bit in bold, and its subsequent removal in suitably designed plugs, is an effect that I've been analysing and observing with cables for some time, and also the significant sonic benefits of lowering contact resistance, which WBT refer to as "Transition Resistance'.
As such, the WBTs are one of the best plugs one can fit to audio cables, and in the case of the Mark Grant G2000HDs, are responsible for elevating their performance over the (already excellent) G1000HDs. Trust me, Dave, the effects are easily demonstrated to those with an open mind and a suitably wide-bandwidth, high-resolution system :)
Marco.
No more thoughts on this, Dave? :)
Marco.
Marco, hope you don't mind me asking on this thread, but what differences did you experience moving from the copper to the silver versions of the G2000HDs?
I have been contemplating this move or possibly even going to the Oyaide FTVS-510s.
Thanks, Chris
Hi Chris,
Believe it or not, moving from the copper WBTs to the silvers made the sound smoother, but not in a bad way at all. The silvers just tidied things up a bit and made music sound more realistic. That is what solid-silver cables or plugs do sometimes. There's a slight 'edge' to the sound of the copper WBTs which you don't realise is there until it's gone....
Basically, the silvers made music sound more like music, and less like 'hi-fi'. Don't get me wrong, though, the copper WBT G2000HDs are superb in any context, but if you really want to put the icing on the cake, then the G2000HDs, with 0110Ag WBTs, are just fantastic. Seriously, you'll never want for better interconnects!
The Oyaides are also very good, but are rather system dependant. If you get off on an uber-detailed top-end with lots of 'sparkle', and your system is on the warmer side of neutral, then they could be just the ticket, but I found that this was at the expense of 'musical flow' and rhythmic alacrity, which the G2000HDs, with silver WBTs, major on in a big way.
If you prefer a fast, pacey, 'boppy' sound (count me in), then go with the MGs with silver WBTs, but if you prefer a more 'finessed' sound that also majors on uber-detail retrieval and treble sparkle, then go for the Oyaides. Hope this helps! :cool:
Marco.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
29-01-2012, 07:23
Thanks Marco. Even a numpty like me could understand that excellent explanation. I'm so dim I don't even know whether I have the copper or silver plugs. What I do know is I spent about four hours listening to music yesterday and it never sounded so good.
Marco, many thanks for the great reply.
I do like detail. I auditioned some Chord Indigo Plus a while ago, and although I could justify the VFM, I still remember that extra bit of detail they provided. That makes the Oyaide's an attractive proposition. Sounds like they're similar in presention to the AZ-910's that HFW reviewed recently.
I get a little confused with the term 'smooth' :scratch:. I hope here it doesn't mean loss of detail or dynamics but rather that the balance of the silver G2000HDs is just a bit better (enough to make a difference) than the copper WBTs. Sometimes I do think (and it is dependent on the recording) that there is just a little too much HF in my system (from the QBD76 DAC) for my liking and it seems the silvers could temper that.
I think the best first step would be to try the silvers via Mark Grant's great upgrade scheme, enjoy the difference for a while and then give the Oyaide's a go.
Cheers...Chris
wee tee cee
30-01-2012, 01:04
I would love to know how two supra trico/ wtb co-ax used as a stereo pair would compare to the 2000s with the silver wtbs. Its a fantastic digital connection, cant help but think it would be excellent as an interconnect....
Sorry to resist all this fanw@nk over WBT plugs (copper and silver ones now..), but the two different kind of plugs would have been on two different cables wouldn't they, and possibly, with the time difference in manufacture, off different drums of cable????? Oh yeah, to improve it further, you'd need the dedicated solid silver? sockets on the amp, followed by pure silver wires inside, let alone pure silver wired transformers - remember, the signal passes through MANY tens or even hundreds of feet of wire on it's way to the speaker terminals in a transformer coupled valve amp (the reason why the output impedance is so high on even the best of these) and then through carbon loaded? copper cables on the way to another few hundred feet of copper wire in the speaker voice-coils.......
Maybe the reason why the silver WBT's sounded "different" was a "mismatch" with all the gold and copper connectors and wire??????????????
Apologies all. I'm not disputing what was heard, just "trying" to inject a little common sense here. At the end of the day though, don't mind me, I'm quite harmless really :rfl:
Sorry to resist all this fanw@nk over WBT plugs (copper and silver ones now..), but the two different kind of plugs would have been on two different cables wouldn't they, and possibly, with the time difference in manufacture, off different drums of cable????? Oh yeah, to improve it further, you'd need the dedicated solid silver? sockets on the amp, followed by pure silver wires inside, let alone pure silver wired transformers - remember, the signal passes through MANY tens or even hundreds of feet of wire on it's way to the speaker terminals in a transformer coupled valve amp (the reason why the output impedance is so high on even the best of these) and then through carbon loaded? copper cables on the way to another few hundred feet of copper wire in the speaker voice-coils.......
Maybe the reason why the silver WBT's sounded "different" was a "mismatch" with all the gold and copper connectors and wire??????????????
Apologies all. I'm not disputing what was heard, just "trying" to inject a little common sense here. At the end of the day though, don't mind me, I'm quite harmless really :rfl:
If the WBT was that good no one would buy anything else would they? The differences in sound quality between say a pure silver WBT and a pure silver eichmann would be marginal to say the least.
Nice post...:)
It IS David, but hobbyists often exaggerate small differences to justify the loads of dosh they spend with accessory distributors :D
Anyway, I'm a lone voice here on this one, so I'll shut up before I'm asked to leave and let you chaps get on with it ;)
Hi Dave,
Sorry to resist all this fanw@nk over WBT plugs (copper and silver ones now..), but the two different kind of plugs would have been on two different cables wouldn't they, and possibly, with the time difference in manufacture, off different drums of cable?????
Possibly, but not necessarily, as if we're talking about Mark's G1000HD (which is also the name of the raw cable, sans plugs), I believe that he bought MILES of the stuff in huge drums from his supplier, and I'm sure that he's either still on the initial first batch of cable he bought, or perhaps his second lot - certainly no more than that. Therefore consistency from cable to cable should be good.
Oh yeah, to improve it further, you'd need the dedicated solid silver? sockets on the amp, followed by pure silver wires inside, let alone pure silver wired transformers - remember, the signal passes through MANY tens or even hundreds of feet of wire on it's way to the speaker terminals in a transformer coupled valve amp (the reason why the output impedance is so high on even the best of these) and then through carbon loaded? copper cables on the way to another few hundred feet of copper wire in the speaker voice-coils.......
Why take things to such a silly exaggeration? That's just daft. No-one's saying that you have to replace every copper cable or connection, with silver, throughout the whole replay chain, which of course would be totally impractical.
However, quite clearly to those who have heard it, there are discernable sonic differences when swapping solid-copper conductor phono plugs for solid-silver ones, when the same cable is used. And in a suitably revealing system, those differences are significant.
In fact, I demonstrated that very thing to a friend (Ian Walker) last night, who currently uses G2000HDs with copper WBTs, in his system, and he's contacting Mark today to order some silver ones!
It IS David, but hobbyists often exaggerate small differences to justify the loads of dosh they spend with accessory distributors...
<SIGH>
You know, Dave, it's comments like that of yours which piss me off, as they are extremely condescending and show a distinct lack of respect and understanding of the reasons why actually many people buy the products you're referring to.
I'd feel confident that the majority of discerning audio enthusiasts on this forum couldn't give a shit about the above, and buy things like silver WBT plugs simply as a result of wanting to achieve superior sonic performance from their systems, and greater musical satisfaction with it. That's certainly why I do it. I couldn't give a flying fuck about anything else.
Therefore, in future, please keep such ignorant remarks to yourself, or before hitting the 'Send' button, think first how those types of comments are liable to be viewed by members who have a different mindset from you - ta!
Marco.
If the WBT was that good no one would buy anything else would they?
That's a bit of a silly statement. For the life of me, I don't understand why people always insist on exaggerating and skewing what's been (very clearly) written..... :doh:
People will buy what they want to buy, based on a multitude of judgement criteria, one of which is recommendations from fellow enthusiasts, many of whom have ears that they trust.
Forums are all about people sharing their experiences, which is all I was doing earlier, not championing WBT plugs as being the best in the universe!
Allow me to make it crystal clear: no-one's saying that WBT phono plugs are unbeatable, but rather that they're the best connectors amongst those which Mark supplies with his interconnects. So let's get the facts right and stop fantasising. Cheers!
Marco.
Marco, I knew you'd react that way once I'd posted it, but with respect, your fantastic turntable of a couple of years ago is so fantastic now, the old one sounded "broken..." or at least the power supply did I remember you saying. I bet that if you went back to the techie as it was before the huge expenses started, you'd find it wasn't so hugely inferior as your genuinely enthusiastc descriptions indicate. I've been there and done myself mate for many many years, so know exactly where you're coming from - honestly. It's just that, with a bit of hindsight, many of these significant and humungous differences I used to hear were not that big at all and that's what I was trying to say...
re: "Therefore, in future, please keep such ignorant remarks to yourself, or before hitting the 'Send' button, think first how those types of comments are liable to be viewed by members who have a different mindset to you in this area - ta!"
Isn't that a bit patronising Marco? I did say "Apologies all. I'm not disputing what was heard, just "trying" to inject a little common sense here. At the end of the day though, don't mind me, I'm quite harmless really" and put a humourous smiley on the end to re-inforce the point. I also said I'd retire from the discussion, which I have, as I'm only answering to you here and don't intend to appear to force my opinions any further..
Ignorant remarks indeed :steam: Just an obviously misguided attempt to put a touch of sanity into things that's all - apologies folks :)
Dingdong
30-01-2012, 14:20
To me there seems a lot of bullshit around in the industry. I decided a long while ago that I'd go with products and ideas that I can understand the technical reasons behind. I'm generally quite good at technical sorts of things.
For me at the moment I just don't see the reasons for silver over copper. It is a very tiny bit more conductive for the same dimensions as copper. And a bit more expensive. I certainly can't see any reason for Rhodium plated stuff at all. I'd take a fair bit of convincing to change away from a nice bit of copper.
Fair enough, Mark, and no argument about industry bullshit (sometimes).
However, would you trust what your ears heard if the difference with these plugs was demonstrated to you in your own system, or would the scepticism you've expressed above cloud your ability to believe what you heard?
I will always respect the opinion of others when it's based on the practical experience of listening, even if what they've heard was diametrically opposed to my own experiences in that area, but I'm afraid that I have little respect for those who pooh-pooh things, simply because whatever it is doesn't fit with their technical or scientific ideology.
Marco.
Dingdong
30-01-2012, 14:56
I'm not poo pooing anything. I hear a difference when I unplug stuff and plug it back in again. If it was feasible I'd hard wire all of my system. Adding connections that are prone to oxidisation, vibration and all manner of other stuff can't help in my eyes.
I think it should be admitted that what some people perceive to be an improvement might be just down to their perception. And if spending your hard earned to do it floats your boat then go for it.
I don't think cable or connector threads get anywhere. As nobody will agree, and they can get a bit heated.
Dave,
Marco, I knew you'd react that way once I'd posted it, but with respect, your fantastic turntable of a couple of years ago is so fantastic now, the old one sounded "broken..." or at least the power supply did I remember you saying.
I'm really not sure what you're on about, but the fact is the description of 'fantastic', in the context of a hi-fi system, is a constantly moving object, depending on one's benchmark at the time. What I had a couple of years ago was 'fantastic', within the context of my (then) benchmark.
Since further upgrades have been made, the performance of my T/T has improved in line with that. I don't see what's difficult to grasp about such a very simple concept.
Any anyway, this discussion has got bugger all to do with turntables. We're talking about plugs!
I've been there and done myself mate for many many years, so know exactly where you're coming from - honestly. It's just that, with a bit of hindsight, many of these significant and humungous differences I used to hear were not that big at all and that's what I was trying to say...
Fair enough, but that's not how it came across. How it came across, was you demeaning what I'd heard, by insinuating that I wanted to hear an improvement simply because I'd bought some 'fancy' plugs, which I found insulting, because it couldn't have been further from the truth!
One day you will learn that I'm simply not influenced by such things. It doesn't matter whether something costs 2p or £200. If it gives an improvement, I will use the product and acknowledge its sonic benefits!
re: "Therefore, in future, please keep such ignorant remarks to yourself, or before hitting the 'Send' button, think first how those types of comments are liable to be viewed by members who have a different mindset to you in this area - ta!"
Isn't that a bit patronising Marco?
Well, after having just been patronised by you, perhaps I was merely returning the compliment? Oh, and also outlining how I expect you to behave here in future.
We seem to go through these episodes every now and then, Dave, where you return to type and fail to learn anything from your past mistakes. The fact is, if you insist on posting in such a boorish and inconsiderate way, you and I will unfortunately always be at loggerheads. And that can only go on for so long.
You need to think very carefully about this and whether you can ever really change, otherwise we'll be back at it again in 3, 4, or how ever many months time. Is that what you really want?
I did say "Apologies all. I'm not disputing what was heard, just "trying" to inject a little common sense here. At the end of the day though, don't mind me, I'm quite harmless really" and put a humourous smiley on the end to re-inforce the point.
Yes, but that's rather like saying 'you're a bit of a c*nt', and then trying to make light of it by saying 'haha, mate, you know I'm only kidding!' The damage has already been done. All you're doing is attempting to make an insult more palatable. Essentially, you were having a dig. And putting bloody smileys after remarks like that merely exacerbates the situation!!
The trick is not make any remarks in the first place that you feel the need to apologise for!
Ignorant remarks indeed :steam:
Your comments were ignorant because you were making presumptions about people's buying decisions (particularly mine) without being in possession of all the facts. That shit fucks me off, big time.
Just an obviously misguided attempt to put a touch of sanity into things that's all
Ever thought that your version of "sanity" might not be the same as that of or appreciated by others, and therefore best kept to yourself? You may wish to consider that in future.
Marco.
I'm not poo pooing anything. I hear a difference when I unplug stuff and plug it back in again.
Cool! :)
I don't think cable or connector threads get anywhere. As nobody will agree, and they can get a bit heated.
They're fine here, and it's what this part of the forum is for, providing that views expressed are made in a respectful, non-condescending and non-confrontational way. And I will ensure that this is ALWAYS the case.
Marco.
Covenant
30-01-2012, 16:22
I'm not poo pooing anything.
On a lighter note-poo-pooing always makes me chuckle and think of Black Adder-Stephen Fry says "I poo-pooed his poo-poo"
Covenant
30-01-2012, 19:13
I think we all enjoy a bit of audiophile jewellery. I bought these cables with locking RCA's but have gone back to my boring old NVA Sound Pipes 'cos they are just better.
Hi Jerry,
I honestly care not a jot about such things. For me, it's ALL about whatever I perceive gives the best sonic performance.
As an example, I'm selling my 'fancy pants' Furutech CF60 XLR plug (female version shown here: http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Furutech_CF-602F_(R)_High_End_Performance_XLR_Connector_CF602R ), which I used on the DC cable between my Techy and the Paul Hynes SR7 PSU, and cost me £95, simply because the far more mundane looking connector Paul supplies for free with the same cable, sounds better (due to its ultra-low contact resistance)!
I guess I've got this game all wrong! :D
Marco.
Covenant
30-01-2012, 19:36
I agree about sonic performance but it just takes me a while to realise it, the cables with the locking RCA's are not going back on.
The Black Adder
31-01-2012, 20:25
I use them and can't be happier. I've used lots of different IC's to only come to these.
I use the copper WBT and find kind of the same as Marco says that the sound seems smoother but not 'where's me slippers, lad?' but a more open and defining characteristic.
Sure, they are expensive but not really when considering the Russ Andrews comic drops through my door every once in a while... Good laugh that!
I just wanted to lend my voice of support for the Mark Grant stuff. I've just installed a g2000hd coax (silver) and a pair of g1500hd ic's and the improvement is quite apparent. There's more coherence, highs are less raspy, soundstage is improved. The leads they replace weren't crap. Service was very good too.
Last year, I replaced Chord Chorus 2s with G2000HD Copper, preferring their more balanced sound and much better VFM. I had previously demo'd Chord Signatures and Indigos, but couldn't justify their prices for the SQ improvement - better much not that much better. I could certainly have lived with them. The G2000HDs had a different presentation, maybe not as detailed as the higher end Chords, but very nice.
Skip forward and I discovered MG's silver plug version of the G2000HDs (I guess it must be more recent - I don't remember it at the time) and the Oyaide 510s and started to do a little research. One thing led to another and I ended up calling Mark to order 2 pairs of the G2000HD Silvers. I also mentioned the Oyaides and Mark kindly lent me a pair to try as well.
First up, but only briefly, the silver G2000HDs were both very nice and familiar. I didn't end up doing extensive comparisons with the copper plugged version because I then tried the Oyaides between DAC and pre-amp. I immediately knew this was my preference. There was much more detail and better separation. Voices and instruments sound more natural. The treble end of things sounds more apparant, but I don't equate this with brightness, rather clarity shining through. There's plenty more texture to the mid-range plus less bloom in the bass, lending it to sound less obvious. Dynamics haven't suffered versus the G2000HDs either. Moving back to the G2000HDs, they sound lovely but not as natural (IMHO) or as clear. To use a much used cliche, imagine the G2000HDs being a colour photograph that's a bit out of focus, whereas in comparison the Oyaides are basically the same but very clearly more 'in-focus'. Things just sound more 'right' to me - strings, female and male vocals, guitars both acoustic and electric, percussion etc etc.
Downsides with the Oyaides? I get frustrated at recordings I would have expected to be better with them (with the Oyaides, I've been surprised at how good the SQ of some CDs really is that wasn't apparant with the G2000HDs). They can occasionally sound a little hard in the treble, but I think this is more to do with the recording than the cables. They're a fair bit more expensive than the G2000HDs.
I would agree with Marco's comparative view of the G2000HDs above, although I personally find the Oyaides to be pretty good on the 'foot tappin' front (just don't get lost in the detail ;)). If like me, you want as much clarity as possible and equate that to reality ('closer to the performance') then the Oyaides could well be the cables for you. For me there's no particular compromise versus the G2000HDs, just benefits - they have given my system a very significant improvement. I have now bought two pairs and they will be staying. :)
If you choose the G2000HDs, you will have yourself a lovely, comfortable sounding cable. If you wish to avail yourself of Mark's upgrade scheme, don't have a dry/bright sounding system (it could be too much) and are looking for more clarity, then I would recommend you give the Oyaides a try.
Chris
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