Mandatory upgrade

[MikeMusic]

Thoughts please

I knew my early 80s LP12 could be in need of some help...
The problem was one channel missing. I posted that too long ago and its taken me this long to sort
Took into Infidelity in Kingston for Derek Jenkins to look over.
Problems found :
1. The *cable* in the Aro arm is faulty so repair or new cable required.

2. My Karma cartridge is almost dead, retipped around 10-15 years ago
Derek recommends a Dynavector DV 20 (?) or a XX2, says a Lyra Delos is ahead of both and a bit less than the XX2

3.The springs and grommets are well past their sell by date and Derek recommends the Cirkus upgrade which he says is significant, born out by some reports I have seen.

4. The Valhalla board is on its way out and he recommends a none too cheap Armageddon to replace that.

5. Motor is looking worn - but he has a spare I can have for free !

6. I need a service. Yes after 10-15 years could be

This is a significant but not telephone numbers amount for this lot which will hopefully see me right for a long time and improve sound quality no end - I am told

What thoughts please ?

Mike

[hifi_dave]

What is the total price including VAT for putting your Linn right, including all the 'upgrades' ?

[Tarzan]

What is the total price including VAT for putting your Linn right, including all the 'upgrades' ?


And did you like the sound previously?

[chris@panteg]

If the cost Ain't too scary and you love your LP12, I say go for it .

[MikeMusic]

I have some options as I don't have to go for everything
Service £200
New / fix cable around £100-150
Cartridge £500-999
Cirkus upgrade £460
Armageddon 2nd hand I think £650
Motor FOC
Yes, Vat, I forgot about that. Don't know if included or not

[MikeMusic]

I thought it was 'ok'. The last upgrade was a Kimber cable for the mains a few months ago. Nothing since the Aro was fitted 10-15 years before that
I have had some problems with on/off which I'm fairly sure is the Valhalla mains board going

[MikeMusic]

It's in that serious money area but not stupid

[Theo]

There is no doubt that spending the £2k will give you a far better performing LP12 than currently, but...

If you love the appeal of the LP12 (we haven't even touched on upgading the shonky subchassis and top plate - add another £1k+), then maybe you want to spend this amount. However, if you are not fussed about ownership, and just want a great record deck to enjoy your vinyl, there are many, many other ways of spending such a sum, from 2nd hand direct drives / idlers (which can be magnificent after a proper service) up to current models, e.g Michell Gyro.

Alternatively, stagger the improvements. Get the Aro seen to (great arm), replace the Valhalla (doesn't need to be an Armageddon PSU, look at the Hercules, or 2nd hand Lingo), and get a cheaper cartridge (say, Dynavector DV 10x5) in the short term to get you at least playing records again, and enjoying them. The Cirkus can wait.

[DSJR]

A Kimber mains wire on a sick LP12 was really throwing money away...

The Karma won't fade away in output unless the fixed magnets have been adversely affected, but obviously the diamond will wear eventually - easily sorted by ESCo (or Dom here).. The ARO arm wiring is an interesting one, since most of it is easy to get at I think. The exit cable to amp was a cheap French sourced coax so shouldn't cost a fortune (and could probably be improved by a suitable small gauge microphone cable in any case;)

The Valhalla kit can be replaced for a couple of hundred quid by a Hercules, which gives you easy two speeds and fits the Valhalla mounts with no issues. Since Linn gave up on Valhalla service a long time ago, I think the Hercules should be fine.

Now, regarding main bearing wear. This is a very serious issue, especially since it's the point on the spindle as well as the thrust plate at the bottom of the bearing well that wears. A flattened "polish" mark is normal and fine, but a black "burn mark," as some spindle tips exhibited in the mid 80's (most replaced under warranty) will mean a new bearing housing and substantial re-polishing of the spindle. The Cirkus replaces ALL of these parts, as well as the springs, grommets, belt and arm board, making a HUGE improvement to bass clarity and making the LP12 almost "high fidelity" grade :D

Finally, as long as your LP12 plinth isn't too wobbly and the two blocks that everything bolts up to are solidly screwed to the plinth (around 1982 this happened IIRC), you should experience good music like you've never heard before and the ARO will leap upwards in performance and be able to take any reasonable cartridge IMO.

The thing about these wild "enthusiast" decks and the LP12 in particular, was that the market it was sold to had the spare funds for periodic £500 upgrades - same with the Naim amps at the time - and this kept a captive audience for many years. The Linn dealer purge of 1991, the rise and rise of digital, followed by researgence of vinyl and FAR better turntables and amps coming along, meant that the old dedicated market contracted sharply. The "terrible Twosome's" response was to raise prices even more, limiting the upgrades to the handful of "faithful" who could afford it - everyone else went elsewhere... This leads me to the following observation and question..

And now the question - How attached are you to the LP12 to want to spend many hundreds of pounds bringing it up to scratch (sorry :))? The ARO is already highly sought after, especially as I understand it's no longer in production, but a tired and worn LP12 in need of substantial work? I'm really not sure I'd bother - leave it to some other (mug) to sort it and buy a proper turntable :) I'm sure there are good used decks out there that the ARO would love - Michell for springy belt drives (even a minty Thorens 125mk1 in better plinth at a pinch I bet), and Avid, NAS etc for affordable solid decks. The Techie likes uni-pivots too, but you'll need to add some extras to a stock one to make it really sing to the standard you'd like...

Sorry if I'm not fanw@nking the LP12 as some other forums would, but I've known the old fruitbox since 1976 and although the fully tricked out current one is a pretty seriously good vinyl player, it also costs many, MANY thousands of pounds more than it's really worth - IMO...

[sq225917]

The springs & grommets can be had from ebay for about £25.

The only parts that ever need replacing on the Valhalla are the 3 main capacitors £3 each and two 2 watt resistors, those burnt looking ones on either side of the pcb. Or you could buy a Hercules for £170 which replaces it like for like and gives you 45rpm as well. Or you could buy the off-board version of the Hercules, called a Mose which sounds slightly better due to removing active electronics from your deck and siting them externally + adding an inline HF filter for the incoming mains.

I found replacing the Aro arm cable wires with Venhaus 5n Silver in cotton with copper foil shielding yielded no improvement. (It made a huge difference on my Rb700)

[Audioman]

Cheaper solution. Put the bits on Ebay as needing update/repair. You will still get a good price. Since you like the Naim arm I suggest buy a Gyrodec SE and fit a Roxan Nima unipivot. Later add Never Connected Power Supply.

Alternatively send your LP12 to Inspire Hi-Fi for their full makeover (they should be able to repair/service the bearing). Keep the Naim arm and rewire (try Audio Origami) or sell and replace with Rega or Inspire arm.

http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/inspirehifi/vivd_info_photos_price_2v2.html

http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/

[RochaCullen]

I'm with Paul,

I'm not an LP12 owner, but as regards value for money solutions, these two make sense.

Nathan


Cheaper solution. Put the bits on Ebay as needing update/repair. You will still get a good price. Since you like the Naim arm I suggest buy a Gyrodec SE and fit a Roxan Nima unipivot. Later add Never Connected Power Supply.

Alternatively send your LP12 to Inspire Hi-Fi for their full makeover (they should be able to repair/service the bearing). Keep the Naim arm and rewire (try Audio Origami) or sell and replace with Rega or Inspire arm.

http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/inspirehifi/vivd_info_photos_price_2v2.html

http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/

[hifi_dave]

Linn dealers sure know how to charge and those prices might even be without VAT..:stalks:

Now, not wishing to push my own services but I never charge more than £50 for a Linn service - parts extra or you can supply your own. I can check out the arm and fit a cartridge, all FOC (price of cart extra).

The prices you quote come out to over £2K, which is a whole heap of cash and will buy you a better turntable if you wish and you can sell on your LP12 and use the money to buy an arm. If you want to keep the Linn, it can be brought up to scratch for a very reasonable sum.

[RochaCullen]

Just spotted this on sale (1/2 price), for close to the money that you are thinking of spending. Looks like a fab table and given Clearaudio's rep this could be worth a shot:

http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/Clearaudio-Anniversary-Turntable;-Bargain!/product_5667

:drool:

[MikeMusic]

Thanks. I have new perspective !
Isn't the Cirkus a new sub chassis ? May well not be !
I had a search on Ebay for Hercules and the Norton (I think) which has gone, now back
I'm going to (try to) cancel my verbal order

[MikeMusic]

Thanks Dave
My Kimbers don't belong to any piece of kit so no problems there. Definitely sounded better

Even a Karma that must be around 20 odd years old ?
Thanks for ESCo and Dom

The cable has to be replaced or repaired

I was looking for a Hercules or a Norton but my Ebay search disapeared

You're a Cirkus fan I think :-)

I was more attached to my old Saab 9000 that needed £2000 to fix the engine. Be sad to see the LP12 go but it could .....

Thanks for taking the time on the full reply

Quoting the wonderful Bill Nelson I see...
:-)

[MikeMusic]

Thank. I didn't know all of that
:-)
Very useful

[MikeMusic]

Thanks Paul
I'm going to collate all of this information and retire to think

[MikeMusic]

Thanks Nathan
*More* data
Great

[chris@panteg]

Thanks Dave
My Kimbers don't belong to any piece of kit so no problems there. Definitely sounded better

Even a Karma that must be around 20 odd years old ?
Thanks for ESCo and Dom

The cable has to be replaced or repaired

I was looking for a Hercules or a Norton but my Ebay search disapeared

You're a Cirkus fan I think :-)

I was more attached to my old Saab 9000 that needed £2000 to fix the engine. Be sad to see the LP12 go but it could .....

Thanks for taking the time on the full reply

Quoting the wonderful Bill Nelson I see...
:-)


I think you need to take your time , have a think about it , listen to some other TT's , do you still love the LP12 ? Can you part with it ? I had the full monty with a Troika , back in 99 after about 4 months of deliberation i sold it and bought a Voyd .5 :) No regrets at all though i deeply regret selling the Voyd :doh:

[MikeMusic]

Thanks Dave
I should have come here first. I need to at least put that tentative order on hold if not get the deck back

[MikeMusic]

Now that is very serious dough !
Thanks

[Artifolk]

I can't bear to part with mine... its been with me for so long. Even though my Techy has past it in the SQ department.

As previously mentioned.. Linn do know how to charge though :D

[chris@panteg]

I can't bear to part with mine... its been with me for so long. Even though my Techy has past it in the SQ department.

As previously mentioned.. Linn do know how to charge though :D

My LP12 was virtually the same spec as yours , I miss the Troika .

[hifi_dave]

Thanks Dave
I should have come here first. I need to at least put that tentative order on hold if not get the deck back

If you're close enough, you can always bring it over to me for checking and no, I don't charge £200 but then, I can't supply the 'Pixie dust'. Over the years, I have worked on many, many Linns where the customer has been told that it's way past it's sell by date and needs hundreds of Pounds work to get it up and running again. It's usually, cobblers.

The arm can be repaired by Naim or by me if it's straightforward. Don't change the power supply until it goes bang, get the LP12 serviced and fit a Lyra.

Simples and way less than you quoted.

[Artifolk]

The Troika is such a sweet sound, funny really as i upgrade to an Arkiv b when it was released,but within 6 months returned to the Troika.

The version i'm using now is a 5 year old Expert retip.

[chris@panteg]

The Troika is such a sweet sound, funny really as i upgrade to an Arkiv b when it was released,but within 6 months returned to the Troika.

The version i'm using now is a 5 year old Expert retip.

I remember hearing the Arkiv B , it was very impressive but a bit forceful I thought , the Troika was Linn's best I feel .

Keep it and enjoy it Charles :)

[DSJR]

A Lyra is a better bet than an Arkiv or Akiva I reckon and unlike many here, I know first hand how a breathed on Karma/Troika can be totally and superbly rejuvenated with some attenton from those that know the design well (apologies Dom, but the ones I've heard really sing have been from ESCo - despite the huge lead-times now).

Like I said here or on another thread, the LP12 and Naim amps back then, were part of an approx £500 per step upgrade ladder. The LP12 was so variable until at least the late eighties, it often needed stripping down a few times to get some sort of consistency in performance and, believe me, I've seen some shocking setups in my time as a trained Linn dealer. One thing I used to be able to do well was set up an LP12 (I think Ron Jazz-bones could back me up on this :)) and it was a skill I held close to my chest, for fear of losing my advantage (the idiocy of youth :(). It was never a fully truthful sound, but it sure made bad 1970's pressings sound tolerable..

The whole thing about the LP12 is common-sense in the setting up, once the bolts are parallel, the motor/belt are dressed correctly, the arm cable and P-clip are correctly done and everything is firmly tight. It was amazing how, in the early days, so few people got it right.......

[MikeMusic]

Thanks Dave
I may well be coming to see you soon

[hifi_dave]

Fine and don't forget the doughnuts.:drugs:

[Dominic Harper]

Hi Dave, no offence taken. I have re cantilevered one Troika with very positive results, fitted a boron with micro ridge, but I have a troika of my own here due a FG II tip in the next couple of weeks, plus another on its way for the same treatment. BTW, my Troika will be up for grabs once tipped, will retain its original cantilever which is fundamental to the troika's sound if you like the stock Troika that is.

[MikeMusic]

:-)