Power cable effects

[magiccarpetride]

My local audio shop is closing down, so the proprietor has a lot of equipment on sale. I'm not currently on the market for anything, but after visiting his store I've noticed that he had some quality power cables on sale. I didn't think much of it initially, but then the next day started browsing the reviews and got intrigued (no rest for the wicked, as the saying goes;)

So I walked up to his store during my lunch break and bought the power cable. Brought it back to my office, and decided to let it burn in for a few hours before bringing it home to try it out on my stereo. Plugged the new power cable into one of the PCs sitting on my side desk, and rebooted the PC.

Continued working on my iMac, and then turned over to do some Windows-specific task on the PC. Something immediately felt odd, slightly out of the ordinary. I have 2 PCs with 2 monitors sitting next to each other. Both my PCs are configured with just a solid blue background (no 'wallpaper'), so by looking at two monitors, I've noticed that they look different. On one monitor (the one that's running with the stock power cable), the solid blue background was not homogenous, it had patches of darker and lighter areas. But on another PC, the one that was fitted with the new power cable, the blue background was ROCK SOLID! No patches of slightly darker or lighter blue.

Now, I'm not sure if I was imagining things at that point or if the visible differences really were there, but as the saying goes "seeing is believing and hearing is a bitch." So I felt that it gets somehow easier to detect the impact (if any) of a higher quality power cable on the visual electrical equipment than it is on the audio electrical equipment.

So my question is: has anyone else tried something similar, and has anyone else been able to detect visual differences between the two power cables?

[sq225917]

Put the old cable back, i think you'll find your display/graphics cards is still about to die.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Did you try swapping the cable to the other computer to see if it had the same effect the other way round

[YNWaN]

Yep, to be honest, I'm not convinced that the mains cables are at all responsible for the phenomena you describe.

[magiccarpetride]

Did you try swapping the cable to the other computer to see if it had the same effect the other way round

No, didn't have the time. Would've been interested, though. I just find it hard to believe, but 'seeing is believing':)

[Dingdong]

There is a good possibility that the backlighting on one of monitors is not so good.

[magiccarpetride]

There is a good possibility that the backlighting on one of monitors is not so good.

Good point, and worth checking out. Mine was far from a controlled experiment, it's just that I got very surprised and forgot to do necessary 'sanity' checking by looking and poking around more carefully. That's why I was curious if anyone else had attempted this eyeball comparison?

[Marco]

I've witnessed many times, in AV systems, the picture quality on displays becoming sharper, with richer colours and more defined contrasts, when better power cables have been plugged into the system.

I doubt you're imagining what you observed, Alex! ;)

Marco.

[brian2957]

I agree with Marco . I've witnessed the same effect on an LCD TV . If using an aftermarket mains cable can have a positve effect on a TV , why not a computer monitor.
Brian.

[Effem]

I've witnessed many times, in AV systems, the picture quality on displays becoming sharper, with richer colours and more defined contrasts, when better power cables have been plugged into the system.

I doubt you're imagining what you observed, Alex! ;)

Marco.

Over the years I have received many reports of improvements in the definition, clarity and saturation levels with TVs using sooper dooper power cords. Yet, I have never tried it for myself :scratch:

[YNWaN]

I've witnessed many times, in AV systems, the picture quality on displays becoming sharper, with richer colours and more defined contrasts, when better power cables have been plugged into the system.

I doubt you're imagining what you observed, Alex! ;)

Marco.

Well, I haven't.

I don't think you are imagining what you observed either Alex - I just doubt that it had anything to do with the mains cable.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Youve latched on to this phrase "seeing is believing", its a misnomer in the way you are using it!

[sq225917]

I have no doubt that there will be a simple explanation. I spent a decade working in high end computer graphics and I never once saw a power cable make a difference to a computer display, I saw plenty of things fall over upon Being unplugged and replugged however.

Perhaps the power cable in question is actuall too thin to conduct sufficiently that may explain the issue. But frankly I'd look elsewhere for an answer, it's all to easy to swap a thing and assume some form of causality where none exists

[magiccarpetride]

Youve latched on to this phrase "seeing is believing", its a misnomer in the way you are using it!

What's the proper way of interpreting it/using it then?

[clap]

I have recently gotten a mark grant dsp2 power cable with oyaide rhodium plated iec. Gosh, what an impact. Sound stage a lot more defined. Bass tighter. High frequencies more prominent. I wouldn't go back. I want to try a gold plated iec as those are meant to sound warmer.

[Marco]

I have no doubt that there will be a simple explanation. I spent a decade working in high end computer graphics and I never once saw a power cable make a difference to a computer display

Fair enough, Simon, but how much time did you actually spend experimenting with different power cables on computer displays and observing what happened to the display - and during your extensive experimenting, did you use anything different from a bog-standard kettle lead?

Be honest! ;)

Anyway, all our experiences are valid. Like you and Mark, I can only tell it as saw it, albeit playing around with specialist mains cables (ones which reduce RFI) with displays on AV set-ups, not with computer screens.

Marco.

[Dingdong]

I think until the op does a proper test it is very difficult to come to a conclusion. Comparing 2 different monitors is very difficult as they could be very significant differences in the way they are set up.

I'm all for the properties of a decent mains cable and mains filtering making improvements. I got myself a PF30 for my telly setup after getting one for my hifi. I believe it made a small improvement.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

My dad always used to say to me "I'll believe it when i see it" I asked him once what he meant after seeing something flying though the sky that I claimed was an alien space ship. he had made that comment when it was there to be seen...
He said, "seeing is believing, I'll believe it when it can be shown to me to be undeniably proven" ...
It doesn't mean because you can see it you should believe what your brain interprets it to be ... It's not a literal phrase!
Think about an optical illusion, your brain doesn't know how to interpret what you are looking at... Ie your brain can't be trusted!
Another thing that happened to me as a kid... I was lay in bed one night and a saw a lady sat at the end of the bed reading, after a few moments she vanished!
I saw her, but I wouldn't use the phrase seeing is believing.
I saw what I interpreted as a ghost... I now don't believe in ghosts! I believe in the possibility of ghosts, but I also believe in the possibility of hallucinations and dreams. I had no way of proving or disproving what I saw ... Just because I saw something it doesn't mean I instantly believe what my brain told me it must have been
In the same way we can't always trust what we hear, we shouldn't always trust what we see! Whilst I agree it is easy to come to firm conclusions based on things we see over things we hear ... Its daft to come to any conclusions when we haven't been through the nessasary process required to prove things to our selves

In this case simply changing the cable to the other computer and seeing what happened would suffice I'm sure!
Anyway, after all that blabbering, I hope my old man was right, as that's all I'm really saying, as far as I know "seeing is believing" is not a literal phrase, because of you think about it, if you believed everything you saw without questioning it you would have to be a bit of moron!
The other phase "believing is seeing" os probably more appropriate to you case here IMO ;)
There is a book by a chap called Errol Morris called that ... Here he is talking a little bit about how it relates to photography, very interesting I think: http://www.realphotographersforum.com/content/607-guardian-errol-morris-truth-photos.html

Anyway ... As it goes, I took a decent power cord to work with me yesterday, my work is reliant on me having a calibrated and accurate display so I was intrigued enough to see what happened if I plugged one in to my screen. I use a laptop, so I couldn't plug it into the computer it's self! I couldn't see any difference on the screen, but then I didn't have any thing to compare it side by side with!*

Did you try plugging the cable directly into the monitor...
If you can see this effect after testing it on two computers, it might be interesting to see if it worked plugged into the monitor directly too!

[DSJR]

Canada uses 110V, which will mean double the current consumption I believe. The sooper-dooper mains cable may well have a substantially higher current capability and the previous one tired internal connectors - possibly.......

LCD screens are very different to the old CRT types though, but the back-light may well be on the way out, or in need of a power cycle to sort it out perhaps?

[chris@panteg]

Well, I haven't.

I don't think you are imagining what you observed either Alex - I just doubt that it had anything to do with the mains cable.

Interested in your thoughts Mark , i know someone in the industry who believes its not so much the cable that makes a difference but the contacts , is this your view or is it the Placebo effect :eyebrows:

[sq225917]

Marco, no. I have never used a hifi mains leads with a computer monitor. But then neither have I ever seen one used with any of the Sparcstations, Nextstep boxes, Boxx renderers, Flame, Flint, Fire, Inferno, SGI-Onyx, Indy, Octane or O2 workstations that i have used, installed, or had reps try to sell to me over the years.

You don't think perhaps that an entire industry with all their mutli-billion dollar resources might have missed out on something so simple to improve the quality of their on-screen graphics as a fancy cable?

No neither do i. If the screen looked different then it's because either A. the cable is broken, or B. the screen or computer is broken or C. PEBKAC. ;-)

Until the OP swaps the original cable back we will never know.

[AlanS]

MCR
Does it get better every day? Like some of your other discoveries. Merry Christmas

[clap]

Interested in your thoughts Mark , i know someone in the industry who believes its not so much the cable that makes a difference but the contacts , is this your view or is it the Placebo effect :eyebrows:

I think this is impt, I think the material makes a difffernce too. Reading about the Oyaide rhodium plated iec reviews talk of a bold , clean precise sound. This is exactly how the cable sounds to me.

[magiccarpetride]

MCR
Does it get better every day? Like some of your other discoveries. Merry Christmas

Alas, it gets worse every day. But that could be due to me not getting younger every day.

[magiccarpetride]

Well, I haven't.

I don't think you are imagining what you observed either Alex - I just doubt that it had anything to do with the mains cable.

Personally, I'm okay either way. The way I look at it (pun intended) is that it could potentially be both a blessing and a curse.

Blessing: this cable hoopla is snake oil and bullshit, things are already working at their best possible capacity, there is absolutely no room for improvement once you've settled on your favourite LED or plasma TV, nothing to see here folks, move on, save your money for strippers/lap dancers/cock fights/whathaveyou

Curse: there is definitely a way to improve your enjoyment of video/sound by purchasing an after market cable, meaning more money out of my pocket:(

[magiccarpetride]

Think about an optical illusion, your brain doesn't know how to interpret what you are looking at... Ie your brain can't be trusted!

Absolutely true. Still, that fact does not invalidate the 'seeing is believing' adage, because during the state while someone's brain is being tricked or fooled, that person keeps BELIEVING what he's seeing. Later on, when he comes to his senses, he stops believing...


I saw her, but I wouldn't use the phrase seeing is believing.

But at that moment you BELIEVED you saw her. Again, seeing is believing (I don't mean to sound like a dick, I'm just exploring the finer points of this adage;)


In the same way we can't always trust what we hear, we shouldn't always trust what we see! Whilst I agree it is easy to come to firm conclusions based on things we see over things we hear ... Its daft to come to any conclusions when we haven't been through the nessasary process required to prove things to our selves

I don't think any of us could ever possibly get to the point of being 100% certain. There is always some little worm of doubt burrowing through our brains.


In this case simply changing the cable to the other computer and seeing what happened would suffice I'm sure!

Yep, I agree.


Anyway, after all that blabbering, I hope my old man was right, as that's all I'm really saying, as far as I know "seeing is believing" is not a literal phrase, because of you think about it, if you believed everything you saw without questioning it you would have to be a bit of moron!

Yes, but wouldn't it be kind of nice to be such a moron? I mean, ignorance is bliss and all that...


The other phase "believing is seeing" os probably more appropriate to you case here IMO ;)

Well, all I can say is that I had absolutely zero expectation bias. It never even occurred to me that a power cable could affect, or appear to affect, the video quality.


Anyway ... As it goes, I took a decent power cord to work with me yesterday, my work is reliant on me having a calibrated and accurate display so I was intrigued enough to see what happened if I plugged one in to my screen. I use a laptop, so I couldn't plug it into the computer it's self! I couldn't see any difference on the screen, but then I didn't have any thing to compare it side by side with!*

That's the thing -- I had two identical monitors sitting side-by-side, so it was quite easy for me to spot the differences.


Did you try plugging the cable directly into the monitor...

No, these are HP Compaq LA2205wg monitors (purchased on the same day from the same supplier), and they cannot fit the three pronged AC cable.


If you can see this effect after testing it on two computers, it might be interesting to see if it worked plugged into the monitor directly too!

I'm not sure how would I plug three pronged AC into a two pronged receptacle? But I'd love to try it.

I'd say that still a bigger impact is to expected at the source level (a PC driving those monitors), since it is the PCs that generate all that 'noise' that pollutes the video card. But I'm just talking out of my posterior end here.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

You have missed the point, but I'm not sure im right so I'm not sure it's worth going on with this ...
I'll say this bit again ... Its not a literal phrase, it doesn't mean "seeing" with your eyes is believing in the sense you are using it
It doesn't matter ... I might well be wrong, I only have a vague memory of my old man explaining it to me

As for a lack of expectation bias though ...
You must have had one as you came to a conclusion without testing your findings when there was a very easy way to test them ... (changing the cable to the other computer)

But look, I can't be arsed to have a silly to and fro, if your happy with your findings them good luck to you I say!

[Marco]

Hi Simon,


Marco, no. I have never used a hifi mains leads with a computer monitor. But then neither have I ever seen one used with any of the Sparcstations, Nextstep boxes, Boxx renderers, Flame, Flint, Fire, Inferno, SGI-Onyx, Indy, Octane or O2 workstations that i have used, installed, or had reps try to sell to me over the years.


Well, you wouldn't do, would you? It's hardly normal practice. But then, neither are most of the things that we do with equipment, as audio enthusiasts, compared with 'normal' people. It doesn't mean, though, that what we do doesn't work, otherwise our audio and AV systems wouldn't be any better than those of 'normal' people! ;)


You don't think perhaps that an entire industry with all their mutli-billion dollar resources might have missed out on something so simple to improve the quality of their on-screen graphics as a fancy cable?


Why not? Just because something may not have been discovered yet doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Like I said, I've observed the effect many times specialist cables, which reduce the effects of RFI, have on AV display screens (TVs and plasmas). So, given that's the case, why shouldn't it work on computer monitors, too?

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Is there any evidence that, A/ mains cables suffer from picking up RFI, B/mains cables can reject RFI, C/ mains inputs suffer from RFI, D/ if mains cables pick up RFI and if this is picked up by the mains input, that this RFI has any effect on the audio output?

When I write 'evidence', I don't mean anecdotal evidence (particularly of the type "I wore a new jacket yesterday and fell over, I don't normally fall over and the only thing different was my new jacket - so therefore the jacket caused me to fall over - conclusion; warm winter clothing makes you unstable and is dangerous")).

[Marco]

Dunno, Mark. The only "evidence" I need is what my eyes and ears tell me, after I've conducted my usual subjective assessment procedure and am satisfied that what I can genuinely hear (or see) is real.

And in that respect, practical experience of experimenting in the area we're discussing with specialist cables, has provided me with all the "evidence" that I need... :)

There are many things we can genuinely hear (or in this case, see) which flies in the face of currently accepted science. And on this forum, we will always ultimately trust our senses, despite what the men in white lab coats think.

Marco.

[sq225917]

There are many things we can genuinely hear (or in this case, see) which flies in the face of currently accepted science.

Marco.

Really, i'm not aware of a single one. It's well known that bone conduction exists down to DC and that intermodulation products are audible to beyond 40k. What are these examples of which you speak? ;-)

[Marco]

Best not go there, Simon.

This isn't pfm or Wigwam. We don't host endless tedious and circular arguments about subjective vs. objective observations, and what science can 'prove' or otherwise, the threads relating to which inevitably ending up being locked or deleted, and so rendering the whole process utterly pointless...! :rolleyes:

I presume that you have read our Ethos? ;)

Here, we simply let people observe what they observe and then wish to report for discussion, and then if necessary, debate those matters on a subjective level, in a totally friendly, mutually respectful and non-confrontational manner. Please remember that.

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

Like I said, I've observed the effect many times specialist cables, which reduce the effects of RFI, have on AV display screens (TVs and plasmas). So, given that's the case, why shouldn't it work on computer monitors, too?

Marco.

Slight correction: for some reason, everyone in this thread seems to think that I've originally tried my new power cable on the computer monitor. But if you go back and re-read my initial post, you'll see that I've only tried the power cable on the PC itself, NOT on the monitor.

My personal hunch is that there may be some source of noise that is slightly polluting the PC itself (its video card etc.), and that perhaps this power cable may contribute to some tempering of that noise. Keeping in mind that my office is a veritable snake's nest of cables, routers, and related shit, meaning super noisy.

Just a hypothesis, remains to be tested (if ever). But I'm not claiming that same or similar effects could or couldn't be observed when swapping the power cable on the monitors...

[Marco]

Hi Alex,


My personal hunch is that there may be some source of noise that is slightly polluting the PC itself (its video card etc.), and that perhaps this power cable may contribute to some tempering of that noise. Keeping in mind that my office is a veritable snake's nest of cables, routers, and related shit, meaning super noisy.


Well, in that case, it's no wonder you're hearing an improvement, as specialist cables removing such noise, and improving matters, isn't really big news - even if the effect was only visual! ;)

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Alex,



Well, in that case, it's no wonder you're hearing an improvement, as specialist cables removing such noise, and improving matters, isn't really big news - even if the effect was only visual! ;)

Marco.

I agree (obviously!), however what's interesting is that there are apparently many members who tend to vehemently disagree. Would be interesting to get them to try the visual experiment, see if they can spot the difference, and if so, what would be the hardened skeptic's explanation for the undeniably obvious (albeit non-measurable) differences.

[Marco]

Yes it would, but the problem is getting the sceptics/cynics to overcome their personal biases and trust their senses more than their scientific belief system! :rolleyes:

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

Yes it would, but the problem is getting the sceptics/cynics to overcome their personal biases and trust their senses more than their scientific belief system! :rolleyes:

Marco.

OK, now you're talking crazy!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Can I just point out that I am not a cynic or a sceptic or what ever ...
Just that I believe that coming to conclusions based on a single observation of an effect that was subsequently not checked is a bit of a thin argument ...

And that "seeing is believing" is an idiom and not a literal phrase! ;)

[Dingdong]

Yes it would, but the problem is getting the sceptics/cynics to overcome their personal biases and trust their senses more than their scientific belief system! :rolleyes:

Marco.

There is a flip side to that argument, but I just can't be arsed.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Actually ... I probably am a skeptic, but I'll give anyone's ideas the time of day...
As I said, I took a cable to work the following day ...
It did squat, but that was in the back of a screen... My laptop is battery powered though so if anything it is even less likely to be picking up stuff from the mains ....
Unless I plug it in to charge, which also makes no difderence to the display, despite it's charger being a smps ... Arent they supposed to be bad for everything???

[Dingdong]

Actually ... I probably am a skeptic, but I'll give anyone's ideas the time of day...
As I said, I took a cable to work the following day ...
It did squat, but that was in the back of a screen... My laptop is battery powered though so if anything it is even less likely to be picking up stuff from the mains ....
Unless I plug it in to charge, which also makes no difderence to the display, despite it's charger being a smps ... Arent they supposed to be bad for everything???

Depends on the design a bit. A lot of them do produce a bit of high frequency noise.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Ok, but by the merit of this argument, my battery powered computer is surly in a better position to not be susceptible to mains noise than a mains powered computer regardless of the cable connecting it to the mains?
Or do desk top pc graphics cards give a better picture than laptops when displaying a plain blue screen ... ?

[Marco]

Just that I believe that coming to conclusions based on a single observation of an effect that was subsequently not checked is a bit of a thin argument ...


I totally agree. That's why I only accept what I see or hear with audio or AV AFTER I've satisfied my own testing and subjective judgement criteria. I never just 'automatically believe' anything!

But, I would NEVER dismiss something I genuinely believe is real simply because some egghead in a white lab coat tells me that what I've experienced isn't 'scientifically possible'!! :nono:

Science is not a perfect entity. Therefore, ultimately, after all necessary (to me) experimenting, I will always trust my God-given senses. Otherwise, in my opinion, one is failing at being a proper human being.

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

So why give alex the benefit of the doubt when he himself openly admits to not making any effort to test his findings?

[Marco]

Because I'm in no position to judge his perfectly valid (to him) experiences. Who am I to dismiss what he may or may not have seen?? Incidentally, that sentiment also applies to others who are similarly unqualified.

It's when people insist on becoming self-appointed amateur scientists/psychologists or technocrats, and start accusing others, rather condescendingly, of 'imagining' things, when that may not be the case at all, that the shit starts hitting the fan!

We certainly don't permit that crap here.

Marco.

P.S I also hate self-appointed police officers or traffic wardens! :guns:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

But I would have thought in your position you would feel it right to promote the right side of subjective view (as outlined in your previous post) as opposed to what seems to me to be the opposite ... Just believing somthing on face value!

I do t want to get into a silly argument with you Marco, I just think you of all people should be encouraging people to test thier findings in logical, if not scientific ways ... ?

And anyway, as I have said, I only for into this because I believe using what I believe to be an idiom in a literal way a bit silly ...

[Marco]

Hamish, there is no 'right side' or 'wrong side' here. Ultimately, I believe in letting people just be people.

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

So why give alex the benefit of the doubt when he himself openly admits to not making any effort to test his findings?

I never expected anyone to give me the benefit of the doubt. All I asked is whether anyone else had experienced something similar.

To which a few members chimed in and said 'yes'. So this is not about me, you see. We're talking about a group of people who have, according to their own admission, already experienced this strange phenomenon where changing a power cable seemed to have changed the quality of things displayed on the screen.

This is all anecdotal, not scientific. Even when I say "seeing is believing", this is not a saying that I've invented, I'm just repeating a common phrase I've heard more than once. I'm not insisting that this particular phrase is true, or infallible, or that it must be taken literally, I'm just tossing it in as a curious thing, a piece of 'common wisdom' if you will, that may precipitate further discussion.

So, once again, my thinking is that if enough people can confirm that power cables can influence the quality of visuals as observed on a screen, it is not necessarily a huge stretch to then consider that, hey, maybe power cables can also alter the quality of sound? No?

It is a completely different question then whether that observable effect can be measured using contemporary scientific methodology, and I won't go into that here.

[magiccarpetride]

But I would have thought in your position you would feel it right to promote the right side of subjective view (as outlined in your previous post) as opposed to what seems to me to be the opposite ... Just believing somthing on face value!

I do t want to get into a silly argument with you Marco, I just think you of all people should be encouraging people to test thier findings in logical, if not scientific ways ... ?

And anyway, as I have said, I only for into this because I believe using what I believe to be an idiom in a literal way a bit silly ...

You appear awfully confused for an 'active evangelist'.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I don't think I said there was a right or wrong?
Just that I beleived that Alex should test his finding ... Somthing that you say you agree with ...
We both know we agree, I was just supprised you were less inclined to suggest the same I did!
Maybe I'm so wrapped up in the ideas I try to bring to my forum where we are constantly trying to questions each others subjective views that I have oat sight of the ethos of this place?
Feel free to have the last word, as unless somone comments on my view that "seeing is believing" is an idiom... in the words of some rich folk on the tele ... "I'm out" ;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

My user title refers to my fairly solid belifs that active hifi set ups are better than passive ones ...

I can't be arsed to reply any more, sorry Alex, you have not followed my meaning repeatedly... I appologise for not articulating my self in such a way that I can get through to you, what I feel is a fairly simple couple of ideas that a: you should test your findings and that b: I believe the phrase "seeing is believing" to be a god damn idiom :doh:

[Marco]

I don't think I said there was a right or wrong?


Earlier you wrote:


But I would have thought in your position you would feel it right to promote the right side of subjective view...


There is no "right side of subjective view", nor would I be here to promote it, even if it existed ;)

I simply allow people to be themselves and make their own mistakes and learn from them, embracing the uncertainty of life and their human fallibility in the process, instead of trying to become 'perfect beings' by worshipping at the (supposed) flawless altar of science.

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

:drugs::argument::wierdthread::brainfart::guns: :booty::wheniwasaboy: :clapclapclap::help:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Fuck me with an armchair ... Wikipedia says
"Seeing is believing is an idiom first recorded in this form in 1639 that means "only physical or concrete evidence is convincing". It is the essence of St. Thomas's claim to Jesus Christ, to which the latter responded that there were those who had not seen but believed. It leads to a sophistry that "seen evidence" can be easily and correctly interpreted, when in fact, interpretation may be difficult."
Of course this is wikipedia ... But ... Well ... I dunno, that my old man and wiki who agree with me at least
Or have I misinterpreted what wiki is saying? I have had a few whiskys ;)

[magiccarpetride]

:drugs::argument::wierdthread::brainfart::guns: :booty::wheniwasaboy: :clapclapclap::help:

You win. Seeing is believing is an idiom. You can now safely get over it. Fair?

Oh, and by the way, from now on, if there is anything subjective I ever experience, I will make sure to first test it.

[magiccarpetride]

Fuck me with an armchair ... Wikipedia says
"Seeing is believing is an idiom first recorded in this form in 1639 that means "only physical or concrete evidence is convincing". It is the essence of St. Thomas's claim to Jesus Christ, to which the latter responded that there were those who had not seen but believed. It leads to a sophistry that "seen evidence" can be easily and correctly interpreted, when in fact, interpretation may be difficult."
Of course this is wikipedia ... But ... Well ... I dunno, that my old man and wiki who agree with me at least
Or have I misinterpreted what wiki is saying? I have had a few whiskys ;)

Splendid, let's start a thread about wikipedia.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I'd agree it is an idiom, Hamish.

But so does this guy......sort of:


And without going through the complete gamut of possibilities I will note that ‘seeing is believing’ is a proverb and an idiom as well as a cliché.
(From Wordwizard.com)

[Marco]

Fuck me with an armchair ...

Is that one of those 'special games' you play with Hannah? :eyebrows:

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Oh, and by the way, from now on, if there is anything subjective I ever experience, I will make sure to first test it.

Good man ;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Is that one of those 'special games' you play with Hannah? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Cor, now wouldn't that be a treat... The mind boggles!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'd agree it is an idiom, Hamish.

But so does this guy......sort of:


(From Wordwizard.com)

You know I thought I was going mad ... Or that my dad was wrong and I'm pretty certain he was infallible!

[The Grand Wazoo]

I find it interesting that it's a similar sort of phrase to "The camera never lies"

.......only a photographer knows that a camera almost never tells the truth.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Exactamundo!
Your Brain is following a similar path to mine my mate ...
In fact, earlier in this thread I posted this http://www.realphotographersforum.com/content/607-guardian-errol-morris-truth-photos.html
Follow the link to the video ... Interesting stuff IMO

[Effem]

As my great aunt Maude always used to say . . .













It's an ill wind . . . .









. . . .









. . . .






that broke the Camel's back

:ner:

[Marco]

Unless she had a fat arse, and sat on it! :lol:

Marco.