New Psu or Cart?

[Artifolk]

I've a little extra money coming my way very soon and rather than blow it on a holiday, I'd rather do one of these approaches.

Should i upgrade my Hicap/Superline to Supercap/Superline?

I'm thinking of a Teddy Padro version and not Naim.

OR

Should i upgrade my DV20XL2 to a XX2 ( or a different make altogether)?

Which would give me more bang for buck?

I know i should go to the source first but also know how important Psu's are in the stream of things.

Your thoughts...



ps. I should have mentioned the Superline is used on both decks

[hifi_dave]

I know this is a bit left-field but I'd go for the holiday..:smoking:

[Artifolk]

I know this is a bit left-field but I'd go for the holiday..:smoking:


Don't tempt me, the other half will have the Brochures out like a shot. :)

[Thing Fish]

I know this is a bit left-field but I'd go for the holiday..:smoking:

Prey tell us why Dave...?

[sq225917]

Sell the Superline and get something that doesn't sound strangely broken instead. I never got on with mine at all, I found the Superline to be quite disappointing. Great bass response but it seemed to have phase issues in the mids. I ran mine with my Benz LP, it still sounded wrong.

[Marco]

Does the Superline have a reasonable window of adjustment for variable gain and loading? Or are Naim phono stages still being voiced for Karmas and Troikas? ;)

Joking aside though, in my experience, physical set-up aside and presuming that decent equipment is in the equation (which is obviously the case here), the key to obtaining high-quality vinyl replay is in accurately matching the cartridge to the phono stage, not only electrically, but sonically, by achieving synergy between their respective sonic signatures.

If I were running a Superline, the question I'd want to know is what cartridge(s) did Naim use to voice it with?

Knowing from the past how Naim operate, you can bet your boots that the Superline will 'sing' with whatever cartridge(s) were used in its development. I've heard the Superline sound fantastic with both Lyra and Dynavector cartridges, and from previous knowledge, suspect that the Superline would have been voiced with one or the other (or both) in mind. I'm sure that the nice guys at Naim would confirm, though, if you asked them :)

As for your question, Charles, if it were me (based on past experience with Naim gear, particularly with what Supercaps do), I'd go for the PSU upgrade, as there is likely to be bigger and more fundamental sonic gains there, in terms of your musical enjoyment, than going from a good MC cartridge to a slightly better one. Basically, I'd expect the cartridge upgrade to notably improve detail retrieval and finesse, by lowering distortion (the line-contact stylus and boron cantilever of the XX-2 will see to that).

However, adding a superior PSU to your phono stage should produce an altogether bigger, bolder sound, with lower noise, a deeper and wider soundstage and an overall improvement, tonally, at all playback frequencies of your vinyl front end, thus setting the optimal foundation from which any future cartridge upgrades can be fully realised. In effect, that route should provide you with the biggest 'bang for your buck'.

Anyway, that's my view. The ball's in your court, so enjoy :cool:

Marco.

P.S A hi-fi upgrade will always last much longer than a holiday! ;)

[hifi_dave]

The Superline has an infinite number of loading possibilites via plug in modules, which you can tailor yourself or get Naim or your dealer to make for you.

I would hazard a guess that they used an LP12, Ekos and top of the range Dynavector when designing the Superline.

[Marco]

Thanks for clearing up the loading issue, Dave.

Is the Superline fixed or variable gain, and if it's the former, what is the gain set at? Such things are sonically crucial when one is dealing with very low-output MC cartridges, as is the gain structure and sensitivity of the partnering preamp. The right balance must be achieved for optimal sonic results.


I would hazard a guess that they used an LP12, Ekos and top of the range Dynavector when designing the Superline.


I think that Naim are into Avid T/Ts now, as one was used at the last show demo I attended of theirs, fitted with an Aro and an XV-1. They tend to disassociate themselves these days with Linn (certainly in public), not because their gear isn't any good, but more because of the politics of their past relationship, and how it is viewed by people attending shows.

So, holidays aside, what do you think Charles should go for - the PSU or the cartridge upgrade? :)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

What they use at shows is often influenced by who is setting up and demonstrating.

I've no experience of a Teddy Pardo but the Naim Supercap makes a large improvement to the sound. Also, the XX2 Mk2 sounds a lot better than the 20X. It's a difficult choice - Daddy or chips ? :scratch:

[Marco]

Sure. Certainly in my experience, though, the bigger gains would come from the Supercap upgrade, which *should* outweigh the benefits of the cartridge one.

Experience tells me that when one is at a certain level with cartridges, the improvements of moving from one model to another, within the same range, tend to be subtle in comparison to the massive improvements upgrading PSUs can make, especially in Naim systems that are designed to showcase such upgrades in a major way.

I think it would be a different kettle of fish if Charles was going from a DV-20X2 to, say, a DRT XV-1, but in the end I would expect the sonic benefits of adding a Supercap to his Superline to outweigh what his proposed cartridge upgrade would achieve. YMMV.

What about gain levels on the Superline? You didn't answer my question, dude :)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

There are two versions of the Superline, one with 64 dB and one with 58 dB gain.

If I had to choose, I would opt for the Supercap over the cartridge but I know nothing of the Teddy Pardo.

[Marco]

I know nothing of the Teddy Pardo either, although it does have an excellent reputation. My comments were based solely on the Supercap being of Naim origin.

Thanks for the info on the Superline. I wonder which one Charles has?

In his circumstances, running low-output MCs, I'd want the 64db unit, particularly if he has notions of upgrading to the more expensive Dynavectors, which have a lower output than his current cartridge.

Do you know if the gain can be factory adjusted, if necessary, depending on which model of Superline one has?

As an aside, and somewhat of a left-field upgrade option, I wonder if Charles has experienced the significant (and wholly fundamental) sonic improvements adding Power-Lines to his kit has? I have (with Naim gear), and the effect isn't subtle!!

It could be that adding a Power-Line (if he is currently just using Naim's bog-standard 'kettle leads') to his Superline and/or preamp would give him as big an upgrade as adding a Supercap......


http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9017/powerline1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/46/powerline1.jpg/)


I've heard what those babies do in a Naim system, and if I still had mine, they'd be fitted throughout as a prerequisite! :eek:

So here's another option for Charles (I do so love spending other people's money :eyebrows:): divide whatever the budget is between adding a Power-Line to his Superline (if it it's simply his T/T he wants to improve - the more Power-Lines added to his system, the merrier) and buying the XX-2, leaving the Supercap upgrade for another time.

Charles, give us an idea of how much dosh you will have to spend, mate! :)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

The Powerline is £450 and it is one of the easiest dems I have done. I know some folks think such things are pure bullpoo but it is quite an upgrade.

[Marco]

Indeed it is... I was shocked and stunned when I heard the huge difference that they can make to a Naim system! :eek:

And then of course there are the Hi-Line interconnects....


http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6607/hiline1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/hiline1.jpg/)


The problem is, when people upgrade their systems, they're (I guess naturally) fixated on the boxes, rather than the 'infrastructure' that allows those boxes to realise their full sonic potential, which although not as 'sexy' as a new box purchase, is in my experience as fundamentally important; indeed that system-building methodology reaches at the very core of what AoS is all about.

You might think me crazy, but if I were running a Naim system now, I'd be factoring in the use of multiple Fraims, Hi-Lines and Power-Lines, before I even chose what kit I was going to use! :eyebrows:

Basically, I'd be selecting the best kit I could afford AFTER all the above had been factored into my budget, provided of course that I could afford to do so in the first place. Basically, what I'm saying is that if my budget allowed for the purchase of both some Naim equipment and the above 'accessories' (a very bad description of their function, IMO), I'd make sure that I had my 'infrastructure' in place first before I spent more on better boxes.

That way, most potential 'bottle necks' would be removed, thus allowing one to realise and appreciate the full sonic potential of not only one's existing system, but also of any future equipment upgrades. It's also an effective way of ensuring long-term system satisfaction and limiting the chances of developing unhealthy 'upgraditis', endlessly chasing a sound, through box-swapping, that no box upgrade will bring. It seems like perfect common sense, yet so few people apply it to their systems.... :rolleyes:

Would, say, a CD5XS/HiCap/202/200 (with speakers of your choice), all on Fraim and fitted with Hi-Lines and Power-Lines, outperform, say, a CDX2/282/HiCap/200 (with speakers of your choice), sitting on an old sideboard, connected with bog-standard interconnects and 'kettle leads'?

I know which one my money would be on, if one *truly* listens to music, and not just 'sound'. And crucially, knows how to successfully differentiate between them! ;)

Marco.

[Artifolk]

Just a snippet, i'll answer more in depth later once i have digested the above posts.


There are two versions of the Superline, one with 64 dB and one with 58 dB gain.


Mine is the 64db version.






And then of course there are the Hi-Line interconnects....


http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6607/hiline1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/hiline1.jpg/)




I also own + Airplugs

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h419/Artifolk/IMAG0365.jpg






You might think me crazy, but if I were running a Naim system now, I'd be factoring in the use of multiple Fraims, Hi-Lines and Power-Lines


Again, already own the Fraims but as yet to have a demo of the powerlines, the reason behind this is I'm using Mark Grant cables i built into a 4 way Hydra. This blew my old Grahams Hydra clear out of the water.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h419/Artifolk/IMAG0337-1.jpg


I've will have approx £1200 -1500 to spend. now if i could find a SC2 for that money my question would be answered.

[Artifolk]

Sell the Superline and get something that doesn't sound strangely broken instead. I never got on with mine at all, I found the Superline to be quite disappointing. Great bass response but it seemed to have phase issues in the mids. I ran mine with my Benz LP, it still sounded wrong.

Lol, i see your using a Prefix, exactly as had i before i upgraded to the Superline after two week home loan, strange that you found it not to your liking, my Prefix/Black Snaic/Earth Mod had been to Naim for a service only approx 2 months previous to me getting the Superline and in my system there where no two ways about the difference i experienced.

Marco,

Concerning the Powerlines, I'll try and get a couple to try in the next few weeks (just hope Alastair and Andy have a few spare), but this will mean me needing a 4way mains block , as i said previously, i use a four way Hydra, in one socket the hydra and the Power amp is in the other.

Before you say ... Get the Mains Sorted, This is being done when the Lounge is re decorated in the spring. Going for either 6 or 10mm t&e, 8 single sockets fed from new consumer unit. This is mainly the reason i haven't looked into the Powerlines thus far.

I to am in agreement with your thinking about all the infrastructure , getting these right first is of paramount importance, Fraim, Hiline, Powerlines, and even floor chips before new boxes etc. but I've had my system since 1990 when most of the new Ancillaries weren't available , so I've been steadily upgrading these as and when, now if i was starting afresh, I'd do it similar to you.

[Mike g]

I have a teddycap hicap replacement and it's great. If I were you I'd look at the teddy supercap though I appreciate it does move you slightly away from the total naim sound.

My power line sounds great!

[Artifolk]

Mike,

Could you let me know what your Teddy Hicap is powering and what you mean about taking you away from the naim sound, have you compared it with a Naim Hicap and if so you conclusions. :)