View Full Version : Break in times = Reality
I had an amp recapped in November.
It's used on my wife's new store it has been running 8 to 9 hours a day all but 4 days since Nov. 11/11 and that got me thinking it has just over 400 hours on it.
How often do we read about people getting something new or doing a recap and a month later they claim to have burned it in for 500+ hours.
I started thinking about comments made about a ring radiator tweeter that was said to take 1200 hours to break in,well that would be 6 months in the real world. Really?
I believe most burn in occurs with in 30 hours and well done after 80 to 100 hours real time at moderate listening levels. If you let your audio burn in non stop for 7 days you would have 168 hours 2 weeks = 336 4 weeks = 672 hours of 24 hour burn in. Just to put things in prospective.
20 to 30 hours a week is a lot of listening time for the great majority of avid listeners.
So unless you have a sound proofed bunker to burn stuff in at.
Now I'm not talking about driver break in for speakers.
But caps,resisters,inductors,wire ect...
Your thoughts?
dave2010
22-01-2012, 03:31
I was sceptical about break in times before I had my Caiman. That definitely seemed to change, and improve during the first week. maybe it changed during the second week too, but than I think changes were minimal.
I'm interested in the notion of recapping- which I presume means replacing some capacitors. A year or so back I was talking to a guy in a hi-fi sjop about my Rotel amp, and I said that I was sure it wasn't sounding so good as before. He suggested that the capacitors were shot, and that it'd be easy to fix. I think he mentioned the large electrolytics. Is this likely? Is it generally easy, and maybe not to expensive to do? Maybe it's only relatively cheap if I use a soldering iron myself?
Is it generally a good idea to overhaul older equipment in this way. I also have a Pioneer A300 in need of attention.
Comments and advice about this would be welcome.
I was sceptical about break in times before I had my Caiman. That definitely seemed to change, and improve during the first week. maybe it changed during the second week too, but than I think changes were minimal.
I'm interested in the notion of recapping- which I presume means replacing some capacitors. A year or so back I was talking to a guy in a hi-fi sjop about my Rotel amp, and I said that I was sure it wasn't sounding so good as before. He suggested that the capacitors were shot, and that it'd be easy to fix. I think he mentioned the large electrolytics. Is this likely? Is it generally easy, and maybe not to expensive to do? Maybe it's only relatively cheap if I use a soldering iron myself?
Is it generally a good idea to overhaul older equipment in this way. I also have a Pioneer A300 in need of attention.
Comments and advice about this would be welcome.
Dave,
I personally don't recap amps my self as if you are going to go down that road you had better have access to a tech manual that tells you how to set the bias. Some amps are far harder than others and it's nice if you can get easy access to both the top of the board and the bottom.
After 10 to 15 years most electrolytic caps have lost some of their values,specs begin to to spiral down and the bias wonders far from where it should be.
Find a reasonable priced tech, alot of them here and have it done,you'll be amazed the difference. I personally like Elna audio caps but Nichicon and Panasonic can also sound great in the right amp.
Artifolk
22-01-2012, 06:54
I sent of all my older Naim kit, Prefix, 52, 250, CDX back to the factory last year to have them all serviced (recapped) after the said 10 years and boy what an improvement when i got them back, a no brainer imo, but as with everything Naim "BLOODY EXPENSIVE"!
Also in the past i've sent back 1 Supercap, 2 Hicaps to get them back upto scratch before parting/upgrading them.
As for the burn in period, the new service components took about a week or so to fully bed in.
I to am a little skeptical about burn in periods of months but do profess i don't have Golden ears.
For me it more likely your getting used to the new differences over the said period(months) and as with a lot of things the brain and ears can give you a false sense of security.
Capacitors do seem to take a short period to 'burn in', but I've never heard any cables change at all during use and I think that, the majority of the time, most of the perceived changes are more to do with the user getting used to the changed sound and interpreting it as 'burn in' (particularly with regard to extended 'burn in' periods).
technobear
22-01-2012, 15:56
Why are people still sceptical about equipment break-in?
It's a proven fact.
It takes 200 hours (at least).
Just get used to it / get over it!
Why are people still sceptical about equipment break-in?
It's a proven fact.
It takes 200 hours (at least).
Just get used to it / get over it!
Who proved it?,is there actual data?
I would love to see actual data on break in,I am sure of it also.
I am just skeptical of 400 hours.Even 200 hours.
It's a proven fact that capacitors can alter in the first few minutes they are used - but not over a six month period (for example). There is no credible proof that I am aware of that 'burn in' exists elsewhere and certainly not with regard to speaker cables or interconnects.
It's a proven fact that some people believe they have been abducted by Aliens - however, this is not the same thing as proof that Aliens exist.
Component 'warm up' and speaker 'run in' are different matters.
Just get used to it / get over it!
I'm not bothered Chris, I'm more than happy for you to believe in cable burn in (or Pixies or Alien abduction - all quite harmless) - I can't believe it myself though as, in all my hi-fi years, I've never heard any evidence that it exists.
I will say I have heard caps become smoother, for example the Oblingato golds where very bright a couple of weeks later I did notice they had calmed down some but we are talking less than 30 hours after that I can't say because I did a resister mod that lowered output by 2 db.
But using clarity SA caps it did also take the same amount of time 2 weeks before they opened up in the top end in both my (old Yamahas long gone) and my( Missions still running in the wifes new store). The Clarity caps do seem rather lifeless the first couple of hours then,who opened the door?
technobear
22-01-2012, 19:45
"For those who can hear, no explanation is necessary. For those who cannot, no explanation is possible." :)
"For those who can hear, no explanation is necessary. For those who cannot, no explanation is possible." :)
I am 45 and hear very very well thank you, but when I don't hear something and it go's against popular opinion I'm unafraid to say it.
Ali Tait
22-01-2012, 20:07
I have heard Clarity Caps get better, then worse, then better and then even better over a period of two weeks or so. Some days the treble would be gone, the next the bass was poor. The sound was all over the place for the first week, then they gradually got better and better over the second week. This was in a KEL84 amp, and is probably the most obvious example of burn in I've heard for myself. I've heard it to a lesser extent with other components I've changed.
Similarly, when I bought the Mr Liang 845 SE amp, the bass was almost non- existant for the first couple of weeks, to the extent I thought there was a fault with it or that the output trannies were crap. It did gradually improve though over the second fortnight, and turned into a very good amp.
:), very good.
Actually, I'm fine with all kind of things hi-fi that science does not support. I think cables can sound different and I've heard the effect of changing individual capacitors and resistors in amps, I think connectors can sound different etc. I don't require an oscilloscope to authenticate what my ears hear (as some do), but with regard to cables, I've never heard any evidence for 'burn in' - perhaps one day I will.
As I wrote before, I think capacitors change (burn-in) - but I don't think it's true of wire.
Ali Tait
22-01-2012, 20:20
I'd agree with that. I've heard different cables sound different. Never heard any burn in either.
Lodgesound
22-01-2012, 20:23
Just a serious question here chaps........................how would you set up your equipment if you were a commercial manufacturer given even the most conservative timescales of burn-in factor here?
How would you go about making a practical post manufacture alignment and test jig given the empirical results posted here?
Just a question................interested in the opinions.
Lots of manufacturers perform soak testing (racks of components connected up to the mains), although this is primarily to ensure reliability and reduce return rates.
Well, the voltage and UF of the cap remains a constant it's the resistance that changes over time as music runs through it.
The resistance difference is measurably small but affects the frequency response.
This will not upset things like biasing.
I have heard Clarity Caps get better, then worse, then better and then even better over a period of two weeks or so. Some days the treble would be gone, the next the bass was poor. The sound was all over the place for the first week, then they gradually got better and better over the second week. This was in a KEL84 amp, and is probably the most obvious example of burn in I've heard for myself. I've heard it to a lesser extent with other components I've changed.
Similarly, when I bought the Mr Liang 845 SE amp, the bass was almost non- existant for the first couple of weeks, to the extent I thought there was a fault with it or that the output trannies were crap. It did gradually improve though over the second fortnight, and turned into a very good amp.
I found this in my Missions using SA grade, the treble was so bad I ordered new caps before they played an hour. I thought my connections where bad at first. Took them out and checked then ordered Solons.
By the time the Solons came the Missions sounded wonderful.
And the Solons where given away shortly after they finally arrived.
Ali Tait
22-01-2012, 21:01
Aye, pays to be patient!
The longest burn-in period I've ever known was for my old Sony SCD-1 SACD player. That did take the best part of 200 hours to come on song.
For the most part, a few days at most are needed. I have heard cable burn-in and do believe that they need some 50 hours or so to settle. Easily done as I leave the system playing MTV and turn off my power amp's speaker switch. Good for most things except speaker cables...
You would need bloody long cables to connect MTV up to my hi-fi!
It's just the Sky HD box through the Caiman DAC. MTV because it's music rather than speech.
It's just the Sky HD box through the Caiman DAC. MTV because it's music rather than speech.
I've seen MTV just recently and we cold debate long and hard weather it's music...:lol:
But I get your point.
Oh, for goodness sake, you don't think I listen to MTV, do you? :)
dave2010
23-01-2012, 08:23
Most of us can't really tell the difference between no burn-in, short burn-in and long burn-in, because we don't have the kit to compare with. I'm not saying there isn't a difference, but we can't test it.
However, just a few people can do this. I believe that Stan B has kept identical copies of his DACs, compared them both to be sure that they sound the same, then put one in a drawer for a month or so, and then compared them again. He assures us that there is a difference, and it's generally in favour of the burned in one.
Whether he would want to keep a lot of his inventory in drawers so that we could all know the difference between 1 month, 2 month, 3 month etc. burn in is a moot point. I doubt that he'd really want to do that. I also doubt whether he'd want to have public listening sessions so that we could all be convinced.
Some things we just have to take on trust. I'd believe him (I do believe him - he says that he's done around 1 month tests) if he says there's a difference between no burn in and up to 1 month. After that, if he claimed a miracle cure (which he probably wouldn't anyway) given a further 6 months, then my scepticism would start to kick in.
Otherwise those with very deep pockets could of course buy large amounts of idential kit, and do their own experiments.
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