Shure ''Broadcast Quality'' BC90.

[kininigin]

Does anyone know anything about this cart?

[ninedecks]

I have some Shure catalogues listing the products but this isn't shown.

[kininigin]

It's a dis-continued product (80's?),the only info i can find is in this link on the 4th page http://www.coutant.org/shurspec/shure.pdf which gives the technical specification of the cart.

[kininigin]

Well,i have the Shure 'Broadcast Quality' BC90 and am about to set it up.I can find no info on this cart and have taken abit of a chance with it.

It has an 0.4 x 0.7 elliptical tip,which is masar polished,to reduce distortion and comes with 3 styli.Tracks beween 1.0g -1.5g

It appears to be made in 1987,and assembled in mexico.Im hoping thier standards hadn't dropped by then.

Have i got a gem,or a dud? Watch this space!

[Marco]

Hi Darren,

I'm watching this one with interest!

:worthless:

Marco.

[kininigin]

Ahh yes,what the hell was i thinking :doh:

Please don't ban me,i'll see what i can do!

[Marco]

Lol... Us nosey buggers like piccies. Take some of it 'in situ' spinning some tunes :)

Marco.

[kininigin]

A couple of pics,remember im not a photographer :)

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m639/kininigin/P1010041.jpg

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m639/kininigin/P1010043.jpg

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m639/kininigin/P1010044.jpg

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m639/kininigin/P1010046.jpg

VERY early impressions....interesting!

I have new speakers,so will have to change between this and the SC35C to get a better handle on it.

All i can say so far,is that it is different than the SC35C,im not sure if it is better or not.Which is a good thing i guess.I've also had the nagaoka MP110,i would say it at least beats that imo.

[Marco]

Interesting... It looks a little like the M92E:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Shure-M92E?sc=2&category=380

I'd be interested to know how you think it compares to your 'Made in USA' SC35C, when you've had a chance to do the comparison :cool:

Marco.

[kininigin]

Will do marco,i've just stuck on a cymande album and i thought this sounds like your description of the G800 against the SC35C.

It seems to have a less insistant presentation,but still detailed and slightly more warm flavour to it.

But it's still early days,but so far,so good.

Im off to watch the footy.

[WOStantonCS100]

Pretty standard looking cartridge body for an 80's - 90's MM Shure. I wonder if the only difference is output and stylus? I'm 'bout positive they'll be a JICO upgrade available for it, if you fancy a bit more detail. My M111(H)E came with a .2 x .7

[DSJR]

The bodies were shared over very many models of each generation, so suitable styli shouldn't be an issue I reckon. The .4 x .7 tip was used on the "EJ" models and could track at 1.8g with no issues. A bit soft toned though and I find the "EJ Balance" just too bland for me now. The ED and especially the HE versions are more my scene, the HE taking these designs to fresh heights of involvement IMO.

[kininigin]

A bit soft toned though and I find the "EJ Balance" just too bland for me now.

When listening to the cymande album this is what i noticed,but i have noticed this quality with the SC35C as well on this album,but more 'soft toned' rather than bland.

I have a re-issue of Demon fuzz,Afreaka and with this recording it is rather leaner it it's sound.A simplistic view is that,one album sounds very 'valvey' and the other sounds more like 'solid state' if you know what i mean :scratch:

So i'm not sure if this is the presentation of the cart,or just the recording,atm.

I have only tried the BC90 on one album,but being soft toned,doesn't sound like the attributes,a broadcast quality cart should have.

[DSJR]

I once had an SC35 in its original version (back in 1985 or so) and it's a bass-up /treble-down balance alright :) Please remember that my ears get gummed up very easily and I find a "gentle" treble balance "difficult." I don't like "tinsel" either, but that's another story :lol:

With properly sorted ears :D you'll notice this kind of balance as "gentle" with low surface noise and clean tracing...

[kininigin]

not sure i agree with your assesment of the SC35C,well actually,i am sure,i don't agree :ner:

I'll play the demon fuzz album tomorrow,and if it sounds soft toned and bland then it will be the cart.

We shall see what my properly sorted ears tell me :D

[WOStantonCS100]

As far as MI's and MM's go, in my stable, the Shure M111(H)E has the most... ummmm.... relaxed treble of the bunch, even with the aforementioned .2 x .7 elliptical, diplomatically speaking. It can play any record I throw at it and is great on hotly pressed white label promos and 12" singles, that'll give some other carts fits. Ultimately, though, it's the least used of all my carts as I've gone over to the dark side (preferring lots and lots of inner detail). Basically, if I can't hear the cat in the back corner of the studio control room, licking it's bum whilst the recording was taking place, I'm not happy. :lol:

[kininigin]

The only reason i bought this cart,was because of the 'broadcast quality' claims and maybe it being in the same vein as the SC35C,but with different qualitys.

If it turns out to be soft toned and bland,it's going straight in the classifieds :lol:

[DSJR]

not sure i agree with your assesment of the SC35C,well actually,i am sure,i don't agree :ner:

I'll play the demon fuzz album tomorrow,and if it sounds soft toned and bland then it will be the cart.

We shall see what my properly sorted ears tell me :D

I thought I'd try to explain. The tonal balance of an original SC35, together with the 75 and 95EJ's I know well (I have a new N70-EJ and a new N93E which are identical in sonics too, just don't suit my ears. Soft toned or restrained, funky bass certainly, but the ED varients TO MY EARS are much, much better. Not saying you'd agree though :) Please remember, the Beeb abandoned the SC35 for the OM Pro many years ago now, but I don't know if this was due to the abandonment of the Gates/Grey combo's they used, in favour of the SP10's and "BBC" tonearm...

[WOStantonCS100]

The only reason i bought this cart,was because of the 'broadcast quality' claims and maybe it being in the same vein as the SC35C,but with different qualitys.

If it turns out to be soft toned and bland,it's going straight in the classifieds :lol:

Classifieds!!! :eek: I still have the M111, even though it really is faulty. I'm probably going to replace it with something similar rather than outright toss it in the bin. After all, there are those pressings that it would work quite well with. Then again... can it be... I'm a hoarder? :lol: I did trade away a Grado Prestige for a Stanton 681. That still left me with the same number of carts, somehow. :scratch:

BTW: white vinyl... cool.

[Marco]

Hi Dave.


I thought I'd try to explain. The tonal balance of an original SC35, together with the 75 and 95EJ's I know well (I have a new N70-EJ and a new N93E which are identical in sonics too, just don't suit my ears. Soft toned or restrained, funky bass certainly, but the ED varients TO MY EARS are much, much better.


Do bear in mind that the 'Made in USA' SC35Cs, with original USA Shure styli, sound much more 'crisp' and dynamic than other, grossly inferior versions of this cartridge ;)

In short, the former is a different ball game entirely from the ones that you remember!


Please remember, the Beeb abandoned the SC35 for the OM Pro many years ago now, but I don't know if this was due to the abandonment of the Gates/Grey combo's they used, in favour of the SP10's and "BBC" tonearm...

Yup - any idea at what point the Beeb used Goldring G800s? You see, I thought it was those that were used with the Gray ('a', not 'e') arms/Gates T/Ts, and that the SC35C came in when they switched to SP10s with the 'BBC tonearm', and then latterly EMT 950s?

Marco.

[DSJR]

Marco, the SC35 I used WAS the US version, back in the mid 80's and CAME FROM BBC STOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) (and was returned after I'd tried it..). I didn't say I disliked it, far from it, it was a surprise :)

I think the beeb used EMT's for specialised transcription for many years, certainly in the late 70's, but not in the main day to day 24/7 music machines in the studios. That's where the rugged and almost indestructible Gates came in and latterly, the SP10's I believe. I don't even think their 301's were used in the main day to day studios at BH, but I could be very wrong here...

These are distant memories, but the Gates/GrAy combos had G800's in the early 70's I understand, but i don't know the timescale when things changed over. I suspect the SC35 took over in the mid 70's? and the SP10 in the late 70's when I remember many studios were being freshly kitted out (ten years at 24/7 is like decades of domestic use). Whether some ex-Broadcasting House equipment was simply passed down to local radio for their use I really don't know..

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


Marco, the SC35 I used WAS the US version, back in the mid 80's and CAME FROM BBC STOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) (and was returned after I'd tried it..). I didn't say I disliked it, far from it, it was a surprise :)


Sure, no worries. You wrote earlier:


I thought I'd try to explain. The tonal balance of an original SC35, together with the 75 and 95EJ's I know well (I have a new N70-EJ and a new N93E which are identical in sonics too, just don't suit my ears. Soft toned or restrained...


"Soft toned or restrained" is fundamentally NOT how my sample (original) SC35C sounds in my system. The only "soft toned or restrained" character it has, to my ears and in my system, is in comparison to a good moving coil cartridge (or a Decca), which due to the very nature of their design, are much more open and explicit sounding at the top-end. Compare the SC35C to my SPU, for example, and yes it does sound "soft toned and restrained", but only in the typical MM vs. MC tradition.

Therefore, the characteristics you describe are not due to any inherent 'flaws' in the SC35C itself, within the limitations of what it should be capable of as a quality MM cartridge, but rather simply the fact that it *is* a MM cartridge, with the accepted sonic signature such a design imposes on the listener. If you like bright(er) sounding cartridges, Dave, because you suffer from bunged up ears, you can hardly label the SC35C as 'dull', simply for not having the 'treble lift' you need to make things sound 'right' to your ears! ;)

I think that this is the fundamental difference between our respective tastes in cartridges, and in some other things, too.

A further point I would add, without meaning to be unkind, is that (thankfully) I still have very good hearing acuity. That's not to say I have 'golden ears', but simply that I just have a very keen sense of hearing, even at the age of 46. My eyesight is also thankfully the same, although of course both could change quickly soon. But for the moment, in terms of our hearing acuity, your disadvantage in that area I believe is largely responsible for some of our differences of opinion about audio.

I dislike cartridges which I detect have a 'lift' in any part of their frequency response, especially in the treble area, as it is so OBVIOUS to me, because apart from my hearing acuity, my system has been set-up to be uber-revealing of any such flaws (the Lockwoods being genuine studio monitors), and since I've upgraded the original MG crossovers, act as a veritable 'open window', thus ruthlessly revealing when the sonic signature of any item used in my system has been 'tonally exaggerated'. For that reason, I prefer cartridges which one could describe as 'even-handed'.

I always aim for maximum possible resolution and transparency from any system I own. As far as possible, I like to hear exactly what's going on, good or bad. And of course that can sometimes have its drawbacks. All I can think of then, to explain our (near) diametrically opposed views of the (original) Shure SC35C are two things:

1) There was a significant sample variation between the SC35C cartridges we've heard.

2) Your preference (as stated) for cartridges which have a 'treble lift', and therefore a departure from what one would call a 'neutral' or 'natural' balance, precludes you from enjoying cartridges as much that don't possess this exaggerated high-frequency response.

Thanks for the info about the Beeb - noted, matey :cool:

Marco.

[DSJR]

Hi Dave,



Sure, no worries. You wrote earlier:



"Soft toned or restrained" is fundamentally NOT how my sample (original) SC35C sounds in my system. The only "soft toned or restrained" character it has, to my ears and in my system, is in comparison to a good moving coil cartridge (or a Decca), which due to the very nature of their design, are much more open and explicit sounding at the top-end. Compare the SC35C to my SPU, for example, and yes it does sound "soft toned and restrained", but only in the typical MM vs. MC tradition.

Marco.

You must remember that, at the time, I was using the likes of Karma's, Troika's daily for a living and, especially, a well thrashed ex-review Goldbug Mr Briar at home, which Jimmy had put several hundred hours on - it still sounded absolutely amazing and I should have kept my big mouth shut when I spoke to the then importer (an old work colleague of mine) since he promptly dashed up to Harpenden to collect it :(

In the company of the above MC's, the SC35 sounds just as you and I describe it - i.e. "restrained" :) and looking back now sadly, I didn't have the need for such a device.

My hearing issues are over the last ten to thirteen years since moving to east Northants and its dank and rather heavy climate brought on the ear infections (the consultant told me I wasn't alone either, so I don't think it was imagination). It was fine before that. Since moving to Suffolk, things have improved somewhat, but I'm now told the Diabetes means that they are more likely to crop up than with someone not afflicted and in fact, the Diabetes may have been with me to a greater or lesser extent far longer than I realised.

Speaking of toppy cartridges - I remember Doug Graham of Naim bringing the Armageddon LP12 to us, fitted with an ARO and Lyra cartridge (Parnassas?). My Gawd, the treble was so strident it nearly stripped the paint off the walls. TOTALLY wrong IMO and put me off their version of "LP12 reality" for years. It wasn't until I was at Northampton that we set up a brand new Cirkus LP12/ARO/Armageddon with an XX2 from memory and heard how well the combination went well together that I began to respect the ARO properly, since on earlier LP12's it never sounded "right" to me.

[Marco]

In the company of the above MC's, the SC35 sounds just as you and I describe it - i.e. "restrained" and looking back now sadly, I didn't have the need for such a device.


I'm glad we appear to agree on that matter, and so therefore any sonic 'restraint' one perceives with an optimally functioning (original) Shure SC35C, in a suitably transparent system, is not as a result of abnormal flaws in its design, but rather it typically exhibiting the traits and limitations of a good quality MM cartridge, in comparison with those of a typical MC cartridge or Decca.

Would you accept that, Dave? :)

To extrapolate further on the subject of cartridges possessing a distinctive 'treble lift', but which are portrayed as being more 'accurate' by today's cartridge manufacturers (and some users), than quality vintage designs, I would cite one of your favourites: the AT OC-9.

Trust me, it is not as 'truthful' sounding as you would like to believe! The OC-9 most definitely possesses a distinct 'treble lift' and tonal leanness that is a departure from true neutrality. You might like this effect, for the valid reasons you expressed, regarding your hearing these days, and can get away with it in your system, but in mine (for the reasons I described before), and with my hearing acuity, its tonal aberrations are glaringly obvious and extremely distracting and annoying.

Ditto with horrid 'toppy' sounding things like Lyras, and most (but not all) modern MM cartridges, which for me lack 'meat on the bone' and are victims of the current 'accepted norm', in terms of how cartridges today are voiced by their respective manufacturers.

Take modern Goldring MMs, for example. Listen to any one of those forensic-sounding sonic abortions, in a transparent system, compared to a judiciously re-tipped G800, and anyone who has a genuine grasp of what real instruments and voices should sound like, will hear exactly what is so wrong with the sonic presentation of their modern counterparts.

In many ways with a lot of today's audio equipment, we've moved too much in the other direction, away from some of the 'pipe & slippers' sludge of old, and have achieved a sound that is almost just as wrong, but for different reasons.

Marco.

[DSJR]

+1

I believe that the reason many AT's have a leaner, brightly lit balance is due to Japanese vinyl having a different formulation. Play these with a cartridge such as the AT, Lyra's and some others and the treble lift isn't noticable at all I understand.

I like the OC9 on many discs because it often brings back some treble energy missing in some pressings, and which I feel should be there. Also, the upper-mid forwardness of many cuts tends to be more truthfully reproduced I think. Trouble is, this upper mid forwardness on some/many pressings may well be incorporated to balance out bassy cartridges, and here we go round abouts again...

Something that may please you lot - and sincere apologies for the severe thread drift... - At least one little studio "up north," which went over to digital production and mastering some years ago was feeling the pinch badly and was in danger of closing. They're since on the up and up - Why? because they've gone back to preparing masters suitable for vinyl record cutting. I need to find out some more, but put it this way, one of their favourite playback systems appears to be the Tekton's I've mentioned before - this time with VERY low bass reinforcement (below 35Hz or so and with "stereo" sub woofers - another topic methinks) and for domestic use at least, a Puresound A30 amp, which suits them to a Tee :)

[kininigin]

Its been interesting reading marco's and dave's last few posts regarding how carts are voiced and then how we can here different traits in the same cart.Just goes to show how all subjective this all is,well to a degree anyway :)

I've been finding it difficult evaluating the BC90.I would say it's not soft toned,seems to be quite the opposite with a 'toppy' sort of sound and a leaner bass,compared to the SC35C.The midrange seems quite good,it's clear and seperates everything nicely.On some records it sounds really good on others really bad and in some case's good and bad at the same time :scratch:

Im not sure if im setting it up optimally.I am using the audio origami protractor,tone arm is level 1.3 vtf and the jelco 12grm headshell.

Main issues seem to be splashy insistant treble and a somewhat lean bass,which paradoxically,can be quite deep and tunefull on somerecords,same with the treble sometimes sounds quite nice and delicate.

[DSJR]

Have you tried 1.8 to 2g downforce?

[kininigin]

I hadn't until now dave.I'd been using the suggested vtf from shure,between 1.0grm and 1.5grm.

I think the problem was that,i had recently bought some jewellery scales and as mark says in his Digital Stylus Balance thread,they are not really suitable,for the reasons he outlines.

Im using the counterweight and ears to set vtf now.I have it at about 2.0grm atm and it sounds alot more balanced now,if alittle 'squashed' in it's presentation.So somewhere between 1.5grm and 2.0grm,is where i will concentrate on.

[kininigin]

I've now listened to a few albums now,and the more i listen,the more i like it.

Is it an all singing,all dancing,giant killing machine? i'm not sure.

Would i swap it for the SC35C,no.It doesn't have the power,drive and authority of the SC35C that i like.The BC90 has a more airy,lighter quality to it,which is pleasant.There is something about this cart i like though,just haven't figured out what that is yet :lol:

[DSJR]

Regarding downforce, I was thinking of the spec of the diamond.. .4 by .7 thou usually indicated an EJ spec cartridge, so forgive me if I'm incorrect here. 2g won't do any harm unless the cantilever is well pushed when playing. The EJ's I had in the past and still have now (M70-EJ and M93E) both will happily track at 1.8g with no stresssssssssssss so have a go lowering the downforce a fraction and see if the sonics open up a little?

I do have to say that if there's an SAS stylus made that looks the same and fits the body then please consider this later on :)



P.S. I have to say that on thinking about the banter here I had earlier with Marco, that I've made good progress being able to listen to a well cleaned and mounted G800, and I was amazed by the delicate sonics of the V15-T2 with new proper stylus (thin cantilever and 1g tracking), both of these sounding restrained, rather than dull, if you see what I mean. I still have an effort accepting a Rega Elys mk1 I have though - just too soggy and clogged tone from bass to treble.....

[kininigin]

I'm at about 1.7-1.8grms at the moment.Seems to be about right,to me anyway.Cantilever doesn't seem under too much stress,as far as i can tell.

On well recorded clean records,it does sound very open,with a big soundstage.In this respect it seems to compete withe the SC35C.

Regarding the SAS stylus,i've been meaning to get one for the SC35C,but the original stylus sounds so good to me,i've not felt the need.Im not sure it would automatically be better,but then again what do i know :lol:

An SAS for the BC90 may be a different story though.

I also have a G800,just haven't got around to getting a new stylus and headshell ect for it yet.Knowing me it will be a while before i rectify that :lol:

I have looked all over the net about the BC90 and can find no user views or any real info on this cart,i find this strange :scratch:

[Marco]

Hi Darren,


Would i swap it for the SC35C,no.It doesn't have the power,drive and authority of the SC35C that i like.The BC90 has a more airy,lighter quality to it,which is pleasant.

What you're describing in my experience is quite typical.

Experience suggests that there appears to be a correlation between light-tracking cartridges and a leaner, airier sound and, as you say, the power, drive and authority of heavy (or heavier)-tracking designs.

I'm not quite sure what that correlation is though, but every cartridge I've used that is designed to track at 2g and above has always sounded more weighty and powerful that the sub-1.8g squad... I'll always take such power and authority over a more delicate and 'ethereal' presentation - *provided* that it's correct and not simply the result of coloration.

And this fact is fully showcased in the 4g tracking SPU, which has a power and authority in the lower registers (when it's present in the recording to exploit in the first place), which can be utterly frightening, and so underpins orchestral and beat-driven music accordingly with a serious grin-inducing fun-factor! :D

Anyway, Darren, returning to the Shure, the good thing is that it seems to be hitting the spot more often than not, so that has to be a result :cool:

Marco.

[kininigin]

What you're describing in my experience is quite typical.


If that's the case,that would explain why i didn't quite like the presentation of the Nagaoka MP 110.A good cart,but not suited to my tastes.The BC90 is maybe more suited to acoustic and vocals,although it sounds ok with other genres.


And this fact is fully showcased by the 4g tracking SPU, which has a power and authority in the lower registers (when it's present in the recording to exploit in the first place), which can be utterly frightening, and so underpins orchestral and beat-driven music accordingly with a serious grin-inducing fun-factor! :D

Sounds like the sort of cart i would like :eyebrows: the price is a spanner in the works though :lol:For me it looks like i need to head in the heavier cart tracking range.What would it take to better the SC35C? I love what this cart does,so anything that has the same qualitys but is a step or two up would be great.Im not fretting about anything atm though,just curious on what to look out for.


Anyway, Darren, returning to the Shure, the good thing is that it seems to be hitting the spot more often than not, so that has to be a result :cool:

I must admit,i do like the openess and sounstage of this cart.Sounds pretty decent to me.Im not sure if i'll keep it or not.It's still to early to say,what with new speakers as well.I need to play it a good few weeks yet.

[Marco]

Sounds like the sort of cart i would like :eyebrows: the price is a spanner in the works though :lol:


Lol... I think you'd wet your pants if you heard a good SPU, in a system that maximises its full potential. It's such a fun listen, as well as being to my ears utterly faithful to the passion and soul contained in good music recordings.


For me it looks like i need to head in the heavier cart tracking range.What would it take to better the SC35C? I love what this cart does,so anything that has the same qualitys but is a step or two up would be great.


Don't focus *too much* on the heavy tracking thing, because as usual in audio, it's not as simple or as straightforward as that!

If you want a cartridge that has the 'balls' of the original 'Made in USA' SC35C, but with a little more finesse, then the answer is a re-tipped G800 with a posh cantilever and stylus. Dom's yer man! Trust me, if you heard one of those, you'd be very excited :eyebrows:

Marco.

[kininigin]

Idon't fancy pissing myself,not without nappies or a colostomy bag.Either way,it aint pretty,maybe i should wait to hear one in the privacy of my own home :lol:

I have got a G800 and i did contact dom,i've got a price list in an email somewhere,im sure.

Im working abroad for most of the year,next year,so not sure about spending too much if i cannot listen to any music,we will see though.