Black Sea Audio speaker cables from Northwest Analogue

[Dominic Harper]

Speaker cables are subjected to a bombardment of electro magnetic and radio frequency muck. Some of that muck sticks, and when it does, it sticks to your music. Having been “induced” into the speaker cable it burbles down the cable to your speakers, with your music. Your speakers have no choice but to reproduce it !!
Silence is no longer silent, so, you have an underlying variable noise masking low level detail and reducing system dynamic range. The kiss of death for music, it’s musicality and emotionality.

Black Sea speaker cables address this issue, reactively rejecting induced noise, keeping a clean silent path for your music to travel. A careful balance of reactive, capacitive, and resistive components (including the cable itself) along with specific component geometry ensures maximum noise rejection, with maximum amplifier compatibility.
Component choice is exact, matched pairs, and mounted to absorb mechanical resonance. The cable itself is very heavy current capacity oxygen free copper with a massive number of small strands, oriented “with the lie of the fur”, the best match with the reactive components.

Construction is equally exact, including minimum heat application during assembly, deep freezing mechanical stress relief, and burn in.

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/black%20c%20speaker%20cable/blackcspeakerbumf1.jpg

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/black%20c%20speaker%20cable/blackcspeakercablebumf2.jpg

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/black%20c%20speaker%20cable/DSCF3427.jpg

These superbe speaker cables are now available direct from Northwest Analogue.

Prices are-
3 & 4 mtr: £395
5 & 6 mtr: £410
7 & 8 mtr: £446

Postage £12 for one pair and £19 for two pairs any where.
Please contact me to order.
northwestanalogue@hotmail.co.uk

[Puffin]

Did you really mean to refer to BS speaker cables?:eyebrows:

[DSJR]

I wasn't going to say that, but the thought occured to me as well :lol:

[DaveK]

Did you really mean to refer to BS speaker cables?:eyebrows:

Same thought struck me Rob :lol: .
Dave.

[Dominic Harper]

Text edited you lot :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Personally, I loved the word "emotionality", which has now been added to my bulging dictionary of hi-fi-isms. Look out for it in a review near you soon! ;)

Seriously though, good luck with these cables, Dom. Perhaps I could get a listen to them next time I'm round? :cool:

Marco.

[Puffin]

Yes, but seriously Dominic you say "specific component geometry ensures maximum noise rejection, with maximum amplifier compatibility.

There is a chap on Diyaudio who has experimented with "active" interconnects QUOTE :-

I decided that you would like to have the signal conductors inside an electric field that was much stronger than the music signal, so that static field polarizes the dielectric. This would be the cable version of a class A amplifier

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/194548-new-interconnect-design.html

We have heard claims such as yours from many other cable manufacturers, but it occurs to me that an "Active" cable may be the one that really rejects noise. I have no knowledge of quantum pyhsics or any other science (pseudo or otherwise) required to really understand what goes on. I suspect that those on here who are a bit long in the tooth, may be sceptical of another cable boasting that it has superior noise rejection.

Do you intend sending any out for Beta testing?

[Dominic Harper]

I'm just quoting what the designer has supplied me with. All I can say is these cables are staying in my system. CD playback prior to these was hard work. With these is situ, sound is far more balanced and enjoyable.

I am expecting a second 3mtr set to be delivered soon and would welcome some feed back from a few guys here.

Names on a list please!

[Reid Malenfant]

Hmmm, I'm having a little difficulty with this except under a specific scenario.

I certainly doubt that a weak signal could influence a low impedance circuit like a loudspeaker & influence it directly, but it could possibly be interference getting back into the amp & affecting the output via the feedback loop in the amp :scratch:

It'd be interesting to test them on a standard type of amp with overall negative feedback & one with no overall negative feedback ;)


By the way, cheers for the interesting link Rob :)

[Welder]

Hmmm, are we sure that "fridge switching off" isn't mains born noise coming through the amp?

The cables may sound very good for all i know but I'm not happy about the graphs and explanations of why and how the cables work.
Far better imo to present the cables without the "science" coz if someone shows the science to be bullshit the cables go down with it; irrespective of how they sound.

[Dominic Harper]

Some feed back recieved from customers so far-
Acoustic energy AE1 / Music Angel valve - Improved detail clarity & musicality
B&W 802 / Avondale Mono blocks -Tighter more tuneful bass & greater detail
Neat MFS / Bryston B7 - Improved detail clarity
Hawthorne Duet OB / Tsakiridis Apollo Mono Blocks - Improved balance & smoother mid
Wilson Sophia /Mana Stealth - Improved open-ness, detail clarity & smoother

[Barry]

Hmmm, I'm having a little difficulty with this except under a specific scenario.

I certainly doubt that a weak signal could influence a low impedance circuit like a loudspeaker & influence it directly, but it could possibly be interference getting back into the amp & affecting the output via the feedback loop in the amp :scratch:

It'd be interesting to test them on a standard type of amp with overall negative feedback & one with no overall negative feedback ;)


By the way, cheers for the interesting link Rob :)

Like you, I too have difficulty with the technical explanation of how these cable work.

There is no way inductive pick up of interfering signals would be able to directly influence a speaker; the signal levels are just too small.

It is quite possible that unwanted signals picked up by the speaker cables could cause mischief when fed back into the amplifiers output. This phenomenon was examined many years ago in a Wireless World article (which I will have to dig out, so as to provide as a reference), but that was specifically considering RFI. The latter could be a problem if you live near a radio transmitter or an airport, wherein the runs of (unscreened) speaker cables can act as inefficient aerials.

I am highly sceptical of using LCR networks to modify the inherent properties of audio cables.

Don't get me wrong, despite being a bit of a cable sceptic for analogue interconnects, I do believe that careful choice of cables used in the digital regime, as well as, in some situations, mains cables and speaker cables can be beneficial.

Having spent 30 years in electronics research (radar and microwave communications), I am weary of a lot of the 'technobabble' quoted by cable manufacturers: it can sound impressive to the unitiated but invariably is technical nonesense. The 'graph' comparing the various signal levels, is utterly meaningless and misleading; there are no scales - is it linear or logarithmic?

I wish Dominic all success with these cables. Clearly they can be beneficial, it's just the technical explanation I have difficulty with.

[TopBalcony]

Is the big black thing part of the cable? If so what does it do, and what is in it? Looks interesting, but at £400 a pop it would be helpful to have some proper info.

[sq225917]

I know this is a trade thread, so delete away. But...

Unless you use balanced cables you cannot strip noise from signal without a comparative signal as reference, or without simply applying a simple pass all/reject all frequency filter. Given that even the best treble drivers are incapable of reproducing anything at frequencies even beginning to resemble RFI what's the point of attempting to attenuate frequencies that cannot be reproduced?

It isn't as if it's an unshielded tonearm wire, where the signal (and grunge) is going to be amplified by at least a factor of 1500 before it hits the speakers. The signal in a speaker wire is already at least 1500 better a rejecting noise than the most susceptible wire in any hifi set-up.

There's no valid science here. Were you making a tonearm wire the same that would of course be different as RFI added to that signal is capable of modulating the output of amplifiers in a way that is not possible with speakers and speaker wire.

All one needs to attenuate any out of band noise, above 20k is a decent size ferrite, and they cost pennies.

I'd be careful what you claim about these on the web, these things have a habit of coming back to haunt vendors- just ask the guys from Alacrity Audio who had an ASA ruling go against them on the 12th of Jan.

[Marco]

Guys,

I appreciate that the last few posts are constructive and well-intended, but I'm not sure that what's written is in the best interests of a trade advert, the primary purpose of which is to attract interest from potential buyers of the products being advertised.

I'll let Dom make the decision as to whether any of the posts here should be removed or not.

Dom? :)

Marco.

[Dominic Harper]

Hi Marco. I am quite ok about the posts so far. These cables will generate some talk obviously. I have sent a link to Karl of Black Sea Audio and he will answer some of the questions thus far.
Debate is always a good thing, so long as it is beneficial to all concerned. As stated, I will have a demo set available shortly, so if anyone is genuinely interested I am happy to post these for short term appraisal if postage is paid.
The technology is a bit beyond me in all honesty, but I can say with heart on hand, these cables are staying put in my system!

[Marco]

No worries, matey - if you're happy, I'm happy :cool:

I do wholeheartedly agree with these sentiments:


Debate is always a good thing, so long as it is beneficial to all concerned.


Marco.

[Dominic Harper]

Official reply from Black Sea Audio-



TECHNICAL

The basis of these cables is actually very well known and understood in industry and the home, and. is “nothing new”. Both “induced noise rejection” and “suppression” being with us all on a daily basis, from the humble CAT5 twisted pair onwards.

PRODUCT REPRESENTATION

The written presentation of the product is clearly “pimped-up” I admit, partly to protect any “secrets” we have, or think we have in their construction.
The graphic representation is just that. A graphic representation. However most of us should find it difficult to deny the existence of RF and electro magnetic energy wafting around our environments. Indeed it can be relatively easily measured, so, I assume that particular issue can be agreed.
The graphically implied levels and noise sources are not absolute or a result of actual measurement, but a graphical representation based on reasonable common sense. Indeed, knowing what we all do about “statistics” it would probably be easier to sway absolute laboratory measurement results to show “what ever we wanted”. Specifically the “fridge switch click” could indeed be one of millions of sources other than “a” or “the” fridge. As I had hoped indicated by the several exclamation marks !.
But who cares ... it’s arguing about nothing until you have direct experience of the product and it’s potential effect.


PRODUCT CLAIMS

The product is not primarily reckoning to reduce noise per say. But, providing an aural / audio improvement to music (let’s be clear about that: music) given the cables ability to reduce, reject, and / or suppress induced noise components.
More important to me me as a music lover (as distinctly different to an “audiophile” or “Hi-Fi enthusiast) are the demonstrable improvements possible. And thus, audible proof.

CABLE : GENERALLY

I would imagine, most would agree that “cable” in general does make a difference.
Certainly, I personally have quite wild, first hand actual experience (well above that of “swapping speaker cables around”). When, acoustically treating Tag Mclarens listening room to “neutral” I witnessed an 80mm long length of wire, transporting DC power from one side of a pcb to the other, in a solid state integrated amp. Tag were changing this wire, changing type, material and size for experimentation.
7 out of 10 wire changes provided “night and day” differences in resulting sound. That's not little changes, but quite obvious fundamental changes. Physics would be hard put to explain this, but as “those of us that know”, know, “audio” seems, for some reason to be rather selective in following rules we otherwise think we understand.


ETHICS

Having worked in every conceivable sphere of audio for well over 30 years, I am very well aware that any one particular piece of kit, interconnect, physical mount Etc. Etc. is not necessarily going to suite every one, or every system. To that end, there is a strict policy of “try before buy”.
Something you may find not so easy to achieve with many suppliers / manufacturers, who, may themselves have equally “wild claims” about their particular product.

SKEPTICS

Skeptics are simply urged to try.
The offer is there from my side !.
If it doesn't suite, given the highly emotive and personal taste issues allied to music reproduction, then, sadly, nothing gained, but, equally important, nothing lost.
Alternatively try your hand at cable manufacture your self !.

OPENNESS

As the manufacturer, we keep an “outcome” database & publish findings on the web site, publicly for all to see. We also publish negative results as well as “glowing reports”, in an effort to be absolutely open.
Currently we have no negative reports !. Running at 100% of installs, providing an improvement. Clearly, as well as listeners taste, every component in the system, coming together “as one” has a bearing on whether the improvement level justifies the cost, This is a personal matter and one which we would never argue. The “improvement level” also varies depending on loudspeaker / amp combination. But, as stated earlier, we currently hold 100% of installs showing a clearly audible improvement, to a greater or lesser degree,

BOTTOM LINE

Being hard arsed, I have a view that: without direct personal experience, no one is really fully qualified to damn, praise (or otherwise), anything.
So, any one showing “interest”, “intrigue”, believer or non-believer is urged to their own, open and ethical thing ... actually try.
Then, and really only then, is any one, truly in a position of direct personal experience and thus qualified to make a meaningful comment. But, still only relative to the entire system, personal taste and honesty.

OUTCOMES

Here are some real life, check-able, outcomes from happy owners.
Being a “small specialist community” any one of these (and more) may be contacted for reassurance of the validity of the outcome comments.



EMOTIONALITY

Yes. A word very well worthy of inclusion in an audio descriptive vocabulary.
Specially as, music is emotive, comes from incredibly talented artists and writers, straight from the heart and soul (something else beyond “technical” explanation or quantification !!). And, for my money, in audio reproduction, the one and only thing I strive to achieve.

Another, albeit phrase rather than word, is “aural orgasm”.
Something which, all of us reckoned to be into music for the sake of music need plenty of. Assuming your system is capable of delivering the goods that is !!!!!!

[YNWaN]

I like the manufacturers response - very good.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Try before you buy? Is that really the offer?

[Dominic Harper]

Sure is!

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Well that's a great offer Dominic. I've been looking for some cables to replace my ancient Audioquest Indigo+. I presume you have jumpers as well?

[Marco]

I like the manufacturers response - very good.

So do I. Particularly this bit, which is entirely my own philosophy, and also represents the ethos of AoS:


Being hard arsed, I have a view that: without direct personal experience, no one is really fully qualified to damn, praise (or otherwise), anything.
So, any one showing “interest”, “intrigue”, believer or non-believer is urged to their own, open and ethical thing ... actually try.
Then, and really only then, is any one, truly in a position of direct personal experience and thus qualified to make a meaningful comment.


Hear, hear! :clap:

Marco.

P.S I also thought that the use of "suite", as opposed to 'suit', was rather quaint... :eyebrows:

[sq225917]

Yeh very fair response- except Ethernet uses balanced signal runs and therefore can claim to use common mode rejection from twisting the cables, speakers cannot.

[Dominic Harper]

Well that's a great offer Dominic. I've been looking for some cables to replace my ancient Audioquest Indigo+. I presume you have jumpers as well?


I will contact the manufacturers. I'm sure they can produce some jumpers for you. (holding my breath now for the silly joke brigade!)

[Reid Malenfant]

Yeh very fair response- except Ethernet uses balanced signal runs and therefore can claim to use common mode rejection from twisting the cables, speakers cannot.
That depends on the amplifier topology surely? Your common or garden amp does indeed have a ground & hot lead, but throw a Krell FPB into the equation & you have a fully balanced output stage about ground :)

[sq225917]

Yes but this is a thread about speaker cables so balanced is meaningless as there is no such thing as a balanced speaker or balanced speaker wires. It's signal and GND, not signal+, signal- and GND as would be required to support common mode rejection.

[Reid Malenfant]

Am I right in thinking there is no ground with CAT5?

[sq225917]

Typically yes, it's usually 4 pair of signal wires with gnd being referenced to the psu of the host device, though the spec doesn't limit it to that. But the key point is that they are balanced lines comprised of +signal and -signal and not signal and gnd as is the case with all speakers.

[Reid Malenfant]

Have you noticed that speakers are "floating"? It doesn't matter whether there is a crossover on a certain side (usually the positive side), they are still floating...

Have you noticed that a phono cartridge is naturally balanced because the outputs "float", it only goes single ended when someone desides to ground both -VE outputs at the tonearm..

Otherwise they could be used balanced all the way to the phono pre amp, the only reason they are screened is to reduce interference :)

Now as speakers are generally driven with quite a few volts there is zero need for screening. They still are not grounded anywhere, except in the case of certain Tannoys I can think of where the driver chassis can be earthed.


If you wire a speaker out of phase it just means the cones move in the opposite direction, it might sound different on a kick drum but it doesn't matter if the xover is on the positive of negative side - they float. Therefore whether they are balanced or not is entirely unimportant.

[sq225917]

Mark, If you wire a speaker out of phase the signal still comes from the same speaker post on your amp because only one of them is driven, the other is connected directly to GROUND inside your amp.

A cartridge is floating, yes. But a cartridge is a symmetrical generator with +/- coils that provide exact mirror images of each other. A speaker is not a generator it is the other type of transducer and is only driven on one side, because, wait for it, the other side is connected directly to GROUND inside your amp.

If you doubt what I'm saying you can do one of two things, open your amp and look at the lack of output stage to drive the black speaker post- see- GROUND. Or you could ask someone who knows more about electronics than you who you are willing to believe.

You cannot stick a little passive box on speaker wire and make it do common mode noise rejection- it is impossible, not unlikely, improbable or anything similar, just plain old impossible.

:-)

[Reid Malenfant]

Simon, where are we going here :lol:

I did suggest to you earlier that you might like to use a Krell FPB amp which swings voltages about zero & you'll find the +VE is the same as the -VE about ground :eyebrows:

A cartridge may well be a generator, but unless the outputs are specifically connected they float in relation to ground. I'm sure I posted a nice simple circuit diagram on here on how to wire a floating balanced phono input to either balanced or single ended via a SUT.

There is no ground with an amp that produces a balanced output :eyebrows:

[sq225917]

Sorry i missed you mention the Krell earlier. Yes of course a balanced amp is balanced, but the advert makes no mention of of only working with that topology- simply that the speaker wire reduces noise through common mode rejection.

Which leads us back to the fact that to achieve a reduction in common mode noise you have to invert one signal and subtract it from the other to cancel out the noise. Now the last time I checked a speaker drive unit cannot do this and that makes it impossible with all single ended amps.

Which only leaves the Krell with it's floating output, serving positive and negative signal simultaneously from each side of the amp. Which still isn't capable of reducing noise picked up by the speaker wire because there is no method for integrating feedback from a plastic box sat on a wire that isn't part of the error amplification feedback loop inside the amp.

So, yes it still remains impossible for these speaker wires and that box to reduce noise on the speaker wire by common mode rejection-because there is no method for feedback to the error correction loops of the amp modules.

Now please go and ask someone who you trust.

[Puffin]

:popcorn:

[Marco]

While all this technical postulating is fascinating, I find it rather circular and completely pointless, as in the end the manufacturer will make the claims that he feels are justified about his product, regardless of whether they are 'scientifically provable' or not. If you don't agree with his claims, then go through the proper formal channels. Circular debates like this (although friendly and non-confrontational) will not solve anything.

Therefore, we're back to the beginning, and the simple assessment procedure of judging the product by using yer lugs! If these cables make your system sound better to YOUR EARS, then they are better, to YOUR EARS - simples!! :cool:

So I suggest that interested parties take up Dom's offer of trying before buying, chaps, and we leave it there.

When someone has actually tried the cables in question, they can then give some feedback based on the practical experience of having listened to their effect, and others can glean from that what they wish. Ultimately, on a subjectivist site like AoS, that is all that matters.

Marco.

[MCRU]

While all this technical postulating is fascinating, I find it rather circular and completely pointless, as in the end the manufacturer will make the claims that he feels are justified about his product, regardless of whether they are 'scientifically provable' or not. If you don't agree with his claims, then go through the proper formal channels. Circular debates like this (although friendly and non-confrontational) will not solve anything.

Therefore, we're back to the beginning, and the simple assessment procedure of judging the product by using yer lugs! If these cables make your system sound better to YOUR EARS, then they are better, to YOUR EARS - simples!! :cool:

So I suggest that interested parties take up Dom's offer of trying before buying, chaps, and we leave it there.

When someone has actually tried the cables in question, they can then give some feedback based on the practical experience of having listened to their effect, and others can glean from that what they wish. Ultimately, on a subjectivist site like AoS, that is all that matters.

Marco.

Bravo! :)

[Puffin]

Hear Hear!

[Dominic Harper]

Update for those intersted in trying the demo set. Sorry for the long delay, but my demo set are with another customer at present. He has purchased a set, so the demo set should be back shortly. Please accept my apologies for the delay.