USB cables

[wee tee cee]

I run a 5m belkin pro usb a- b cable between v-link and dac.
I was just wondering if anyone can ,from they're own experience recommend a good usb cable. I need 5m for flexibility.
Is they're a difference in sound quality?
If the consensus is yes, I will e mail mark grant asking the probability of him producing some cables for us computer audio users.
Tony.

[roob]

When I tried a 5m cable between dac and laptop I experienced random clicking during playback, I swapped to a 1m cable and it stopped so I am always a bit suspisious of long cables.

[technobear]

I have a 5m Kimber USB cable and it works faultlessly with both my DACs. T'aint cheap though :(

I'm not convinced it's really necessary with an asynch USB DAC but if you're stuck on the outdated and hopeless adaptive USB then the signal needs all the help it can get :)

[Reid Malenfant]

Isn't 5M the maximum specified length for proper USB operation anyway? I don't think it's speced to run longer than that so effectively you are pushing it at 5M :scratch:

[Welder]

Shorter the better apparently.

I erm, butchered my own by removing one end and directly soldering onto the dac board :eyebrows:

[technobear]

Isn't 5M the maximum specified length for proper USB operation anyway? I don't think it's speced to run longer than that so effectively you are pushing it at 5M :scratch:

Yes, that's true, but actually if you have a decent USB cable you can easily push it to 7m or more.

Using either the CDQ or the uDAC-2, I can hear no difference between 0.5m, 1.5m and 5m (I have all three in Kimber).

[wee tee cee]

Chris,
Just out of interest, does the kimber usb improve sonically on cheapo cables...just you're observations.
At just over £100 for 5m its not outrageous.
I cant tell the difference between different optical leads but hear significant changes with differnt co-ax.
Tony.

[technobear]

Just out of interest, does the kimber usb improve sonically on cheapo cables...just you're observations.


On my NuForce uDAC-2 the Kimber makes the difference between eminently listenable and virtually unlistenable. I tried it with practically every USB cable I had in the house which is several dozen, all different types, some fancy with heavy shielding. I was about to send the uDAC-2 back from whence it came before I was advised to try Kimber USB.

The asynchronous Audiolab 8200CDQ is much less fussy. I'm not sure it makes much difference at all but then I don't have a bog standard 5m cable to try it with.

[wee tee cee]

Chris,
I had a look at the kimber USBs , I'm hoping its the standard one as opposed to the silver one.
I'm running my cable into a v link - coax - dac. Do you think I would benefit.

[bobbasrah]

On my NuForce uDAC-2 the Kimber makes the difference between eminently listenable and virtually unlistenable. I tried it with practically every USB cable I had in the house which is several dozen, all different types, some fancy with heavy shielding. I was about to send the uDAC-2 back from whence it came before I was advised to try Kimber USB.

The asynchronous Audiolab 8200CDQ is much less fussy. I'm not sure it makes much difference at all but then I don't have a bog standard 5m cable to try it with.

Would you mind Chris expanding on WHY it was unlistenable please. eg Was the data corrupted causing problems at the DAC because of it's input requirements (hence the Audiolab being less fussy)? :scratch:

[technobear]

Would you mind Chris expanding on WHY it was unlistenable please. eg Was the data corrupted causing problems at the DAC because of it's input requirements (hence the Audiolab being less fussy)? :scratch:

It sounded as harsh as fuck :lol:

Does that make it clear :D

Nothing to do with missing bits. It's all to do with jitter and noise.


Oh and no it's not the silver version that I'm using.

[jon1]

It sounded as harsh as fuck :lol:

Does that make it clear :D

Nothing to do with missing bits. It's all to do with jitter and noise.


Oh and no it's not the silver version that I'm using.






:D:D



jon

[DaveK]

Tony,
If it would help, I have a 0.75m MG USB A to B cable that Mark made up for me some time ago. ATM it is not in use but it will be in the near future so I'm not looking to move it on but you are free to borrow it for a week or so if it will help.
Dave.

[Stratmangler]

It sounded as harsh as fuck :lol:

Does that make it clear :D

Nothing to do with missing bits. It's all to do with jitter and noise.


Oh and no it's not the silver version that I'm using.

Sounds like your DAC/USB interface is broken.
I was playing FLAC files into my Caiman last night using Foobar2000/Asio and a cheap and nasty 5m USB1 cable, and things sounded lovely ...

:sofa:

[roob]

It sounded as harsh as fuck

At the end of the day the Nuforce is a $129 dac/amp you can't expect its usb interface to be brilliant.

[technobear]

At the end of the day the Nuforce is a $129 dac/amp you can't expect its usb interface to be brilliant.

And yet with the Kimber USB cable it sounds perfectly acceptable - not high end by any means but quite listenable.

[wee tee cee]

Chris,
Thats what I was after an AOS no BS response. I will do a bit of research. Might be shite but...experience has taught me anything that flows current makes a difference......
Thanks Tony.

[bobbasrah]

Chris,
Thats what I was after an AOS no BS response. I will do a bit of research. Might be shite but...experience has taught me anything that flows current makes a difference......
Thanks Tony.

What is it that is affecting your current USB connection Tony, it baffles me....

[wee tee cee]

Tony,
If it would help, I have a 0.75m MG USB A to B cable that Mark made up for me some time ago. ATM it is not in use but it will be in the near future so I'm not looking to move it on but you are free to borrow it for a week or so if it will help.
Dave.Dave ,
A generous offer, But I really need 5m of usb to run my hard wired set up flexibly.
Tony.

[wee tee cee]

Bob,
Hee Haw.....Just wondered if a fancy shmancy usb would transform my life and make me more attractive wimmin.......

[Welder]

Bob,
Hee Haw.....Just wondered if a fancy shmancy usb would transform my life and make me more attractive wimmin.......

Oh, is that what this is all about....
No problem; give me the money you would waste on a fancy USB cable and I'll sort out a women for you ;)

[wee tee cee]

John,
I think I paid about £7 for the Belkin....so really I'm looking for someone to keep me in a way I'm unaccustomed to and add real value to my life....( I'm accustomed to abject poverty and hardship )

[bobbasrah]

John,
I think I paid about £7 for the Belkin....so really I'm looking for someone to keep me in a way I'm unaccustomed to and add real value to my life....( I'm accustomed to abject poverty and hardship )

I though that was precisely what John was offering....
1 - Take your gear with a 0.5m to 1m cable, move yourself over, plug in the cans and listen to a piece you know well.
2 - Change over to a Belkin or other 5m and do the same thing

Any change?
Probably not, unless there is something very wrong with the cable or the kit at either end.
I realise that some folks hold to the notion that certain data cables sound better, but personally, as John I think would agree, if it does not alter the data at 1m, and is the same at 5, pixie dust won't make the 1 or 0 any sweeter.
Ah well that's me off the christmas card list

[Welder]

No worries tony; couldn't match that. Not even the women I know would sort you out for £7.;)

I just wondered, coz times are hard and I read here on AoS somewhere that some chap spent £5000 on a couple of bits of wire, very pleased he seems with them too.
Can't help wondering that perhaps he was hoping for the same thing as you.
I could have got him a truckload of wimmin for £5000; all the detail, wow and cor you could want.:doh::D

Oh well, just keeping my eye out for a scam or two. At least with the wimmin you would get your moneys worth.:D

[bobbasrah]

And you do have the NHS to fall back on also John.....

[Reid Malenfant]

You know I wouldn't be so sure :eyebrows: Not wanting to start any kind of arguement, but while data transfer to say a HDD if you were ripping a CD might not matter too much as it's not like it'll get the bits mixed up... While they may well be slightly mistimed (but still in a nice smooth flow) & they may well have the leading & following edges of the bit slightly rounded, I can't see it making a difference to rips ;)

However, these things are critical when it comes to playback as they'll introduce that dreaded jitter unless the bit is cleaned up & has nice square edges. This may be why async has advantages... I don't know...

The thing is, is a USB cable a specific impedance? If it isn't then you'll get reflections in the cable that will mistime things. This is why digital audio is specified at 75 ohms single ended & 110 ohm balanced, to avoid these pesky reflections by using a specific impedance. Another reason why phono S/PDIF is inferior to BNC, because a phono plug has no specific impedance ;)

[bobbasrah]

And these issues would arise in a 0.5m or 1m cable ?

[Reid Malenfant]

The longer the worse I'd expect things to be ;)

[bobbasrah]

The longer the worse I'd expect things to be ;)

So if it sounds no different between a 1m and a 5m would you agree that there should be no additional issues as the DAC is receiving no different information?:eyebrows:

[Reid Malenfant]

Yes :) But it ultimately depends on the resolving power of the DAC, amplifier & speakers used to judge this now doesn't it ;)

What may not be a problem with a £500 pound system may well show itself with one costing £5,000 & be a right pita with another setting you back £50,000...

[bobbasrah]

That certainly does seem to be the case in the audiophile world I grant you, but this is where I run into difficulties, as we are talking data integrity and timing.
I have fired data, video, and audio digital signals off meteor trails and aurora, and lost nothing, spun them via satellite, no losses, zip, yet we have problems with cables.....
I guess that is why folks are so keen on streaming digital audio over RF ?

[Welder]

See, now I reckon it's not about jitter, or even dirty zero's and ones.
It's all about hearing, and some people it seems can hear amounts of jitter an stuff that others cant.
I've heard some fairly expensive systems and had the opportunity to swap cables about. I couldn't hear any difference but the people who own the systems say they can.
Just glad I'm deaf really. :eyebrows:

[Reid Malenfant]

See, now I reckon it's not about jitter, or even dirty zero's and ones.
It's all about hearing, and some people it seems can hear amounts of jitter an stuff that others cant.
I've heard some fairly expensive systems and had the opportunity to swap cables about. I couldn't hear any difference but the people who own the systems say they can.
Just glad I'm deaf really. :eyebrows:
:lol: Well it does save you money John :eyebrows:

Not sure if I'm of the golden eared fraternity myself, though I have heard substantial differences in digital audio when going from a high quality phono S/PDIF to a cheap midi cable wire balanced via AES/EBU, & again improvements using a better cable on AES/EBU...


Doesn't mean I'll hear them via USB though. All I know is that cables make a difference on certain connection types of digital signals :) To me ;)

[sq225917]

You'd have to be some way off for cable impedance to create jitter in a USB cable.

[Reid Malenfant]

It depends how far the mismatch of impedance is I reckon. Our friend Bobbasrah has obviously been into radio communications so he'll know about VSWR ;) If you get a 100% impedance match then you'll get no reflections up & down the transmission line & 100% of the transmission is applied to the load. If it's out by 10% (2:1) then you have a fairly significant reflection from the mismatch. 10% would be 7.5 ohms on a 75 ohm transmission line.

Now while these bitrates are maybe only 44.1Kbps as a minimum they involve not sine but square waves, so the fundamental frequency that is dealt with is in fact a lot higher - in the RF spectrum to be precise, this is why a specific impedance was required by Sony & Philips so as not to mess things up.

[bobbasrah]

So have you tried the experiment yet with a short and long usb Tony JFS&G?

One aspect that was mentioned in this thread that irked was the observation that flaws with a usb cable to DAC which do not appear in lesser resolution audio system, can show up in a higher resolution and expensive audio system, only resolveable by a high quality usb cable...... Consider this -
Usb1 can hand off 12Mb/s, Usb2 - 480Mb/s, Usb3 – 5,000Mb/s. An average hirez ALBUM is 1,000Mb, so usb itself can comfortably pass the file data for normal playrates to a DAC. But what of the cable?
A 1Gb hirez file is copied over a 5m long Belkin usb cable (in chunks via the buffer), to the external usb2 drive, checked, no error found. The file is now an exact clone of the original digital file, and the pipeline is provably doing it's job. No complaints on any system on which it is played, all is well, the cheap system and the esoteric system play the exact same file to their respective analogue resolutions.
Having proven that both the cable and the file are 100%, any subsequent flaws can surely only be problems with interaction with or implementation of usb at the DAC as the pipeline is patently not the issue. A poor usb cable and a good cable can be a few pounds apart, but the notion of a hideously expensive one to resolve a problem at the expensive DAC is barking mad IMHO.

HD audio via satellite is passing over considerable distance, down waveguides through transponders, coax., a decoder, then finally it all falls apart in the last 5m of cheap usb.... Damn....

[technobear]

HD audio via satellite is passing over considerable distance, down waveguides through transponders, coax., a decoder, then finally it all falls apart in the last 5m of cheap usb.... Damn....

Yes, this is exactly what happens!

From the satellite to the computer, it's all just data. Precise timing is irrelevant so long as all the bits are captured intact into the computer's memory.

It's when it exits the computer via USB that it all goes horribly wrong - if you are using an adaptive USB DAC. The computer is in charge of timing the data. This adds jitter. A poor cable will add more jitter. If the DAC is a crap one which converts USB to S/P-DIF then this will add even more jitter. Result - harsh 'digital' sound.

The same is true if the connection is S/P-DIF rather than USB unless the DAC buffers and reclocks the data - few do. Most DACs merely adjust to the incoming clock thereby ensuring that the music is reproduced with a constantly varying timing which sounds horrid - boring, uninvolving, harsh in the worst cases.

An asynchronous USB link gets rid of this problem because the DAC is totally in charge of timing the data and commands the computer to send more or less as required to keep the DAC's buffer full. The DAC then times the data using a high precision clock. This results in constant timing.

However, a decent USB cable is still required for good noise rejection because noise can still find it's way to the analogue section of the DAC unless the DAC has built-in galvanic isolation.

[bobbasrah]

Ok Chris, I understand that you have had problems with usb and had to but a cable to suit, so your experience is the opposite to mine.
To summarise your post, there is not a problem if you have a Async Dac with galvanic isolation. Good. So where exactly is the problem? Usb implementation at the DAC?

It does not matter one jot whether the signal comes from a set-top box or a computer or any other device if the USB implememtation is correctly done. I expect there will be further advances on this in the near future, because if they got John Kenny going, the chinese must be doing something better than just copying crap.

I have had none of your issues and have used the DAC with almost every usb cable up to 5m to a variety of systems ranging from the very good to downright obscenely expensive. Nothing fancy or esoteric, just plain jane usb.
Not once has there been a single problem. It has even fed a very expensive DAC which only had a spdif input, much to the delight of the owner who had been advised usb was problematic, not bad for a cheap chinese DAC.... I must admit that his system sounded stunning.

There are some who are looking at buffering in addition to all the other issues, so the future is bright, and perhaps the myth over usb will finally die gracelessly.

[wee tee cee]

Gents,
A fascinating array of information. I have both 1m and 5m runs of the same belkin pro usb cables both are excellent. I just wondered if a usb built with hi fi concerns like the kimber would improve matters any. It would appear if they're is a weakness in the chain and the usb, if its lacking, can show this up.
Its another small aspect of the hobby I can enjoy.....
Tony.

[bobbasrah]

Gents,
A fascinating array of information. I have both 1m and 5m runs of the same belkin pro usb cables both are excellent. I just wondered if a usb built with hi fi concerns like the kimber would improve matters any. It would appear if they're is a weakness in the chain and the usb, if its lacking, can show this up.
Its another small aspect of the hobby I can enjoy.....
Tony.

There appear to be some cables that get round problems with the DAC usb implementation, as above, but this is not a case of them being more "musical" Tony, as a digital signal is a totally different animal.
If you can borrow one of these wonder cables to trial, why not hear for yourself, but if you cannot hear a difference between 1m and 5m Belkin, and it behaved as it appears to have done at Ali's, it would be a massive waste of money to purchase one unless on a return basis if not satisfied.

One curiosity that Vincent Kars highlighted was the Halide bridge (somewhere in the forums, probably digital), which passed the usb signal more accurately to spdif at the DAC. The test that he linked to was very interesting, not that this will unshackle the anti-usb lobby from embedded views....:rolleyes:
Not that I would recommend such a very expensive (relative I know) device, but it demonstrates how usb CABLE is not the issue, it is how the receiving end is implemented.:cool:

[sq225917]

Yup, isolate the pwr lines effectively and stop them from cross contaminated the data lines, galvanically isolate everything at the dac end and you are fine. The only usb dac I've heard sound different with different cables is the Arcam rdac. To me that would indicate it is a POS as regards internal design and layout.