1210M5G: Why is it so bloody dull sounding?

[Vocalpoint]

Folks,

First some history - been a Techy fan my whole life - from starting in the late 70's with my beloved SL-D2 to using the SP10 in a broadcast environment for years to the couple of years which saw two SL-1200s pass thru the house - to my latest purchase in 2010: a brand new 1210M5G.

With this new one - I have been slowly working it into shape with periodic upgrades. It's housed atop a dual Target wall shelf which is bolted right into the house studs. Solid.

I am using a PS Audio GCPH stage going to a spare line input on my Pioneer Elite receiver.

I rotate a variety of carts depending on the mood - the AT440Mla in the standard Technics headshell, an Ortofon 2M Bronze in a Ortofon 9g black headshell and today's it the Denon DL-160 in a Zupreme headshell.

I have the following upgrades in play....

1. Herbies Way Mat
2. KAB Tonearm Resonance Cap

The table has it's stock tonearm which I will be keeping and yes - those crappy stock feet.

So - today - after spending over an hour setting up the Denon using the Ken Willis accutrak protractor set to the Lofgren arc....I still get dull.

Matter of fact - I get dull with all carts and all protractor settings. I have a Mint tractor here...spent hours messing with this thing last year - all leading to dullsville. I can switch the AT440MLa - using the Technics jig for a two minute setup and the sound is actual better than the 160 and lightyears ahead of the Bronze.

It just sounds like crap - and it's making me sad - like there is a heavy wool blanket draped across the speakers with every LP - preventing what I think should be a wicked sound from getting thru.

So - where to start? I am think the feet have to go and I am fine with going right to Isonoes ASAP.

How about the mat? I am reading bits here and there that the Herbies can - (in certain situations) - suck the life right outa this table. I do have the thick type KAB mat here as well.

Phono Stage: I have read so many positives on the PS Audio but maybe it's just not the right match for this layout?

Finally - the shelf itself. I am still using the crappy mdf shelf insert that came with this thing and it's lame little "balance" screws. Tapping the TT with nothing playing gives me plenty of sonic boom over the speakers. Any suggestions for a possible replacement insert on this? Or a better "spike" to balance the shelf insert with?

I really want to get this thing to a point where it's it's creeping up on the digital media (CD and FLAC) here - but right now...it's got a "cassette deck" vibe which is bumming me out....and I know this can be so much better.

Here's hoping for some suggestions from the field...:)

Cheers!

VP

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Welcome to AOS, can you pop into the Welcome Section and introduce yourself there please. Tell us a wee bit about yourself, system, taste in music etc.

Thank you in advance.


Regards D S D L

[Vocalpoint]

Hi Welcome to AOS, can you pop into the Welcome Section and introduce yourself there please. Tell us a wee bit about yourself, system, taste in music etc.

Thank you in advance.


Regards D S D L

Done!

VP

[jostber]

I have the Herbie mat and the Ortofon Bronze cartridge on my SL1200 MKII deck and it sounds very fine. A list of possible upgrades is in the first post in this thread:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15227

New feet and a new bearing might be a good place to start?

[John]

I had the PS Audio phono in my system a few years back to try out I must admit I did not like it very hard to get a decent dynamic sound and spiked badly a few other people had similar issues

[Tarzan]

What other components do you have,a synergy issue maybe?

[sq225917]

if your other sources don't sound as dull then it's most likely a cart/phonostage mismatch.

Take the phonostage to a mates house and see what it sounds like there. I've heard several GCPH none of which I would have described as dull. Of course if you are used to ear splitting shreekiness then 'your idea of dull could be someone else's idea of balanced.

It is highly unlikely that, swapping feet, or similar other minor mods will bring about a large change in the frequency response, it's an electrical issue between the cart and your speakers. Fine tuning will tidy things up afterwards but it absolutely should not tilt the tonal balance in such a gross way so don't try.

[DSJR]

Take a look around the threads here for the vantage Audio style feet. I believe they're available from other sources too and they're a fraction of the price of the ubiquitous Isonoes...

An acrylic style mat, bonded with vaseline to the platter may sound livelier than the Herbies. Since the arm on my ancient SL1500 is fixed-height, a standard Techie herbies is too low, so I placed a cork mat on top of it and rather liked what I heard...

I like the AT120E very much, so it's highly likely I'd love the AT440MLa, which some here find too lean and crisp I think.

Do you use digital as a main source? if so, what do you use?

One final thought, and forgive me for the "granny sucking eggs" suggestion, but is your phono stage adjustable for "MM" or "MC" settings? You haven't by any chance got the setting to MC when using the high output "MM" style cartridges have you? I must admit, the DL110 and 160 could sometimes sound better used this way..

[Vocalpoint]

Thanks guys - for all the suggestions...I do appreciate it...lemme take a few of these one by one....


I have the Herbie mat and the Ortofon Bronze cartridge on my SL1200 MKII deck and it sounds very fine. A list of possible upgrades is in the first post in this thread:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15227

New feet and a new bearing might be a good place to start?

Will review. Just a note that the bearing won't be getting a change out. That's taking it a bit far for what I want out of this rig :)

What phono stage are you using?


I had the PS Audio phono in my system a few years back to try out I must admit I did not like it very hard to get a decent dynamic sound and spiked badly a few other people had similar issues

This is the one that is concerning me the most - and the one I kinda refused to be possible...but then again - I have never really been impressed with what I have heard with this thing since day 1.

I sorta always thought I would "get there" with better alignment processes...maybe a few different carts. But it's quickly becoming a very real possibility that this stage is just not happening.


What other components do you have,a synergy issue maybe?

It's fairly simple. TT->Denon DL-160->PS Audio->CD-R input on the Pioneer VSX-23THX. All other sources via the receiver sound amazing.

Could there be some sort of issue with using the "CD-R" input on this receiver? Or maybe the cables I am using from GCPH to receiver? The cables are custom built using Canare studio grade cable and Neutrik connectors - I doubt they are a source of the issue...but..?


if your other sources don't sound as dull then it's most likely a cart/phonostage mismatch.

Take the phonostage to a mates house and see what it sounds like there. I've heard several GCPH none of which I would have described as dull. Of course if you are used to ear splitting shreekiness then 'your idea of dull could be someone else's idea of balanced.

I am definitely not into any kind of shriekiness or heavy volume. My taste is very clean, very well recorded and very easy to listen to. I wish it was as easy as taking the stage over to someone elses house - thing is - amongst all my buds - none of them understand the vinyl "sickness" nor do any of them even have a TT up. :)


Do you use digital as a main source? if so, what do you use?

Digital sources here include

OPPO BDP-83 (CD/SACD/DVD-A) with a two connections:

1. Direct to the VSX-23THX via HDMI
2. Coaxial out of the OPPO to coaxial in on the Music Hall 25.2 DAC
3. Music Hall DAC 25.2 comes to the "CD" input of the VSX-23THX

Brand new Dune HDi Smart D1 (FLAC/WAV) connected via HDMI to the VSX-23THX


One final thought, and forgive me for the "granny sucking eggs" suggestion, but is your phono stage adjustable for "MM" or "MC" settings? You haven't by any chance got the setting to MC when using the high output "MM" style cartridges have you? I must admit, the DL110 and 160 could sometimes sound better used this way..

The DL-160 is "recommended" to be used with the stock "MM" settings with the GCPH. I have made no changes to the stage as I just had my AT440MLa on the table prior to changing over to the Denon yesterday.

Thanks again for the comments and I am looking forward to finding out just what the problem is here with you help..

Cheers,

VP

[jostber]

Thanks guys - for all the suggestions...I do appreciate it...lemme take a few of these one by one....



Will review. Just a note that the bearing won't be getting a change out. That's taking it a bit far for what I want out of this rig :)

What phono stage are you using?



I use the Hagtech Cornet 2. Sounds wonderfully.

http://www.hagtech.com/cornet2.html

[Dingdong]

Have you tried a different mat from the Herbies?
I've got one that came with the SP-10 I recently bought. Made things sound like someone had put a pillow over my speakers to me.
I'm sure some people think they're great, but it ain't going anywhere near my tt again.

[Vocalpoint]

Have you tried a different mat from the Herbies?
I've got one that came with the SP-10 I recently bought. Made things sound like someone had put a pillow over my speakers to me.
I'm sure some people think they're great, but it ain't going anywhere near my tt again.


I have the stock Technics here as well as the KAB "thick" version. Will try those out as well....just to try to isolate the issue a bit more.

VP

[Pete]

The 5mm tall Funkfirm Acromat would be an easy 1st upgrade, affordable, and something you would keep even if you spent big money to upgrade the 1200. Should give you cleaner highs and controlled right sounding bass.

[dave2010]

Bruce

Before we get silly, does anything sound any good to you? If you go to a concert or a gig does it still do anything for you?

[Vocalpoint]

Bruce

Before we get silly, does anything sound any good to you? If you go to a concert or a gig does it still do anything for you?

Yes of course. Live gigs as long as it's not a "volume" dealer production are all still very enjoyable and of course - my entire collection be it CD, SACD, DVD-A, FLAC and especially vinyl all still move me in different ways.

This quest is more of an investigation as to why an album via the TT does not standup to the same source on the CD player....but

As I have really dug into some heavy duty A/B comparisons this morning - something interesting is starting to happen to this DL-160....like I am witnessing it's "open up" phase first hand...

Will report back as I run thru some different sources with different carts...

Cheers,

VP

[RobbieGong]

For what it's worth I too had the Herbies, absolutely hated it, like others have said, it was as if someone had put a blanket over the music, It just killed the sound big time. In your case there mat be other factors too - hope you get to the bottom of it. I too have the MK5g and it's a great deck. Mine sounded good straight out of the box before the mods. It shouldn't sound dull, if anything with the stock mat, arm and platter it should sound the opposite ie: a bit lively and zingy. I'd start from scratch by ditching the Herbies. Go with stock mat, add the DL160 (It's said to be a good high output mc). Make sure you then spend good time getting set up right ie: vta, anti skate and stylus force / balance weight right, find out what the recommended stylus weight is for the DL160 and set the anti skate to the same, ie: 1.7gm weight = set anti scate to 1.7 - proper set up is very important (Follow the set up instructions in the Technics manual and also find out the height in mm's of the DL160 as this will determine where you set the vta adjust according to the recommendations in the manual, this will be pretty accurate as a starting point. You can turn ever so slightly while playing a record and tune to ear afterwards. Doing this by turning ever so slightly and slowly is the great thing about the techy vta adjust. You will hear when it sounds just right to your ears.) Id be surprised if you didn't find it singing after this - Trust me !

[Vocalpoint]

For what it's worth I too had the Herbies, absoulutely hated it, like others it was as if someone had put a blanket over the music, It just killed the sound big time. In your case there mat be other factors too - hope you get to the bottom of it, I have the MK5g and it's a great deck, evn out of the box it shouldn't sound dull, if anything with the stock mat, arm and platter it should sound a the opposite ie: a bit lively and zingy.


That's what I thought. And to be honest - I went with the Herbie's based on what other people has suggested and it's been on the table for the last year - but due to "life" and general hubbub - I really haven't truly sat down and spent the appropriate time to see exactly what each mod was contributing to the mix.

I made a pact to get to it this year - hence this investigation ongoing. The whole point of this thread was to try and discover why any given LP had - what seemed to me - to be a "wooly" tone - why it didn't seem to come close in clarity or sound to the CD of same source.

After thinking on it - it finally dawned on me that in order to prove this theory - I needed to actually place LP and CD on together and see what my ears are telling me - so for the last 6 hours or so - I sat down with 20 selected titles, and had both the first press CD and the first press LP going at the same time and did an EXTENSIVE A/B comparison on each - and - I believe I have may have talked down to my Techy (and my phono stage) a little too much...

After settling in and really listening to track by track samples of all 20 titles and hitting the CD/AUX button on the remote like 2000 times - I was clear pretty quickly that it ain't so bad after all .

In fact - in at least half the cases - I was flabbergasted that the LP was actually much better than the CD. (Donald Fagen's - The Nightfly and Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark being a couple of startling standouts) The vinyl versions of these two were an absolute joy to sample - especially thru phones and truly left their CD counterparts in the dust. A huge soundstage, deadly fat tone and a much better vibe. The Nightfly - in particular - just made me scratch my head wondering why the CD version has attained such legendary "audiophile" status when my bone stock 1982 Canadian pressing (albeit mastered by Robert Ludwig) completely kicked it to the curb.

I did the test both under phones and with the speakers up and I feel much better about the rig in general now. For each title - I did the ole head back, eyes closed and went back and forth between sources - and for many of these - I really could not tell what was CD and what was LP...that for me - is a good thing.

I guess sometimes you just have to dig in and prove it to yourself. This was a true ear opener for me for sure. I also think I may have given my phono stage some short shrift as well as each comparison seemed to get better and better. Overall - I think I need to live with this for a while before making any crazy decisions on switching out the stage.

I will however - be looking to changing the feet on the Techy and swapping a few mats and carts in the coming days. It was also nice to see that all the time I put in getting the Denon setup done right paid off in playback that was -for the most part - identical to - but happily in some cases - better than the CD version.

Thanks again for all the commentary.

Cheers!

VP

[drrd]

It is worth remembering that in many cases when comapring lp and cd you are not comparing like with like. I think people have become used to the sound of (relatively poor) digital sources and when you go back to listening to the lp it can sound a bit fat and soft. Listen closely though and the detail is there, the music definitely comes through. With older titles the vinyl was likely cut from a purely analoge source and the cd was propbably badly mastered and the jitter and filter specs of old converters werent so good, this tends to highlight the differences. I think comparing modern vinyl and cd is a closer call, the lp master may have been cut from a (possibly hi-res) digital source, the software used to downsample and master to cd is better, they do sound more alike I think.
I would be wary of tweaks to your turntable that make it sound more 'airy' or 'detailed' or 'lively', my experience is that often this is colouration or just plain distortion. I'm especially wary of mats with those charecteristics :)
Sometimes it's good to take a break and have another listen with fresh ears a while later.

[Vocalpoint]

It is worth remembering that in many cases when comapring lp and cd you are not comparing like with like. I think people have become used to the sound of (relatively poor) digital sources and when you go back to listening to the lp it can sound a bit fat and soft. Listen closely though and the detail is there, the music definitely comes through. With older titles the vinyl was likely cut from a purely analog source and the cd was propbably badly mastered and the jitter and filter specs of old converters werent so good, this tends to highlight the differences. I think comparing modern vinyl and cd is a closer call, the lp master may have been cut from a (possibly hi-res) digital source, the software used to downsample and master to cd is better, they do sound more alike I think.
I would be wary of tweaks to your turntable that make it sound more 'airy' or 'detailed' or 'lively', my experience is that often this is colouration or just plain distortion. I'm especially wary of mats with those charecteristics :)
Sometimes it's good to take a break and have another listen with fresh ears a while later.

Russell - I totally agree. All the comparisons were intended to do were to ensure (within my own ears and mind) that what was coming from the TT was as close to a "reasonable" sound as possible.

I kept thinking that my "sound" was so off the map that I needed to take the time to prove it and suddenly realized that the LPs are almost identical to the CD in all cases. Not that I enjoy using any CD as a benchmark but when you are trying to see if your TT is setup right and is at least kicking a sound that is reasonable - I felt a lot better.

As I mentioned - in many of these comparisons - the two source are virtually identical. And I specifically chose titles that were not influenced by the loudness wars (original CDs)- were not cut from pure digital sources (LPs) and together could serve as a decent A/B to at least see if I was close with what was coming from the TT.

The rig is fine and yes - I will take a break now and come back in a few days with fresher ears. I have a new box of vinyl coming in a day or two...that would be a god time to jump back in :)

Cheers,

VP

[MartinT]

Bruce - before performing any upgrades you need to get the basic sound right. It shouldn't sound dull.

Check another line level input on the amp (e.g. Tuner or Aux) to be certain that the CD input is not at fault. Use another cable from the PS Audio. Reset the PS Audio (I presume it's a GCPH) to standard MM input, 47k impedance and try the Denon and AT cartridges again. Neither are dull.

If it's a small dullness you're hearing, then I would point to the mat (Achromat certainly has livelier midrange than Herbies) and PS Audio (I had issues with hum but not dullness). I sense that there is something fundamental going on which you need to fix first.

[Vocalpoint]

Bruce - before performing any upgrades you need to get the basic sound right. It shouldn't sound dull.

Check another line level input on the amp (e.g. Tuner or Aux) to be certain that the CD input is not at fault. Use another cable from the PS Audio. Reset the PS Audio (I presume it's a GCPH) to standard MM input, 47k impedance and try the Denon and AT cartridges again. Neither are dull.

If it's a small dullness you're hearing, then I would point to the mat (Achromat certainly has livelier midrange than Herbies) and PS Audio (I had issues with hum but not dullness). I sense that there is something fundamental going on which you need to fix first.

Martin,

Thanks for the comments - I do appreciate it. Regarding your suggestions - I have explored most of it ...especially cables, inputs etc. I also double checked my GCPH settings and it was all normal.

Bottom line tho - I think my whole cause for concern was simply not listening - both carefully and with an ear to what the digital sources were sounding like. Until I put both up on the phones and speakers - did it all become clear. Everything thru this receiver, speakers and phones that I thought was "dull" is actually the way everything sounds.

I do have some mat concerns and other smalls things that I will try. Bigger things like a wholesale swap of the phono stage is a bit more serious and will have to be looked at later.

I am also now thinking that much of what I am hearing could be due to the fairly flat calibration I have the receiver running with - as it's true primary duty is for multichannel audio/video. I spent a bunch of time last year performing it's room calibration program specifically geared toward 5.1 source material have never really looked at doing anything special for standard stereo sources. Could be as easy as placing a new room calibration preset for CD/vinyl etc.

Could be the speakers too. I purchased these Monitor Audio speakers after weeks of auditions...but at the time of purchase - I wasn't listening to them thru my current Elite receiver - rather some very expensive amps down at the shop. So there could be a bunch of things that need to be adjusted.

Thanks again for the tips and words of encouragement.

Cheers,

VP

[MartinT]

If it's a Pioneer Elite, then it's likely to have very good amplifier modules. However, a 5.1 setup will not suit music! Can you disable it or set everything to flat (i.e. no equalisation / tone adjustment / room correction shite) and listen to the stereo pair again with music from the deck? This will at least give you a baseline. Then compare with another stereo source, say a tuner or CD player. Now you'll have another reference.

[Vocalpoint]

Can you disable it or set everything to flat (i.e. no equalisation / tone adjustment / room correction shite) and listen to the stereo pair again with music from the deck? This will at least give you a baseline. Then compare with another stereo source, say a tuner or CD player. Now you'll have another reference.

Most certainly. If you read my post (#17) again - I did just that - a long 6 hour investigation using 20 different titles (the CD and LP for each) For each pair - I made sure to have the receiver in what Pioneer calls "pure direct" mode.

So for both the CD and phono stage inputs - ALL processing, tone controls - anything that can change the sound - is turned off - and presumably you get the purest possible signal you can.

And they were right. Pure direct is about as flat and lifeless as it gets - but it's also as real as it gets and that's all that mattered to me.

VP

[MartinT]

Sorry Bruce, I missed that. I agree that flat is real - you can't make a recording 'better' by adjusting frequency balance which is why I wouldn't have a tone control anywhere near my system ;)

[WOStantonCS100]

...So for both the CD and phono stage inputs - ALL processing, tone controls - anything that can change the sound - is turned off - and presumably you get the purest possible signal you can.

And they were right. Pure direct is about as flat and lifeless as it gets - but it's also as real as it gets and that's all that mattered to me.

VP

Pioneer Elite makes really kickbutt HT receivers (with direct modes), no doubt. (In fact, they've made some really great source components, full stop.)

However, :sofa:, a quantum leap was made when I removed my VSX from my rig. I was convinced it couldn't possibly be hampering my sound. I was very, very wrong. Both analog and digital sources got a new lease on life. Just my experience.

[DSJR]

you can't make a recording 'better' by adjusting frequency balance ;)

I think you can sometimes. I use my tone controls for other reasons though, mainly to get my headphones to behave a little better :)