Step up Transformers - Comments and advice wanted.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Just spoke to the guy at Whest, yep those of phonostage excellence. Happen to mention I intended to buy a SUT and use with the Whest 3.0xx range of phonostages. Then to my surprise he asked why I would do such a thing, he promptly poo-poo'd the idea of SUT and phonostages as a load of crap. I happened to say that I thought I heard quite a difference when I auditioned an Audiotechnica SUT in my system last December.

According to said expert all I was hearing was the characteristics of the transformers in the SUT imparting there effects on the sonic signature?? So the
question I have to ask myself is, did I simply get used to the new sound playing
through my speakers because the SUT imparted its characteristics upon the sonics and my brain told me that things sounded better or did I really hear a marked sonic improvement within my system with the SUT in place setup :scratch:

Comments gladly accepted.

Andy

[Pete]

Well, I could see why a phonostage manuf. would not like the idea of someone not using their active solid state MC input in favor of a transformer.

Conrad Johnson in their high end phono uses transformers for the MC step up, as does Nagra.
In the end its all about what sounds good to you.
Let your ears tell you what sounds better.
I did, and now use the Hashimoto H7s, and will likely never go back to active MC stages.

[lurcher]

The phono stages I have been building use a low noise jfet into a valve stage. To my ears, that clearly shows the damage a SUT can do. But thats my ears, you may hear it differently.

[MartinT]

I'm using a Whest PS.30R phono preamp and have had a similar conversation with James. The Whest allows for direct low level MC or high level MM settings.

I have compared direct phono stage connection with using SUTs - currently my HM7s, the same as Pete's. There is no doubt that the direct connection doesn't come close to the ideal impedance match of a SUT and the evidence is in the sound: far greater dynamics, bass welly, excitement and huge midrange detail, air and soundstage. I would never go back to using direct phono stage connection now.

[Artifolk]

Martin,

Do you think having the ability to change Resistance and Capacitance values on Phono stages to match a cart would make any difference? Surly this is an advantage? Rather than adding a Sut?
I'm referring to the Naim Superline or a Linn Uphorik to name but two.

I know I'm a newbie and as yet to hear a SUT/Phonostage combo to compare, but surely adding more connection would increase distortion/noise etc?

[MartinT]

Charles - my Whest has comprehensive gain and impedance settings internally. That's not the issue, transformers sound completely different. It's about matching impedance and transferring more of the energy of the MC cartridge into the amp. The additional connections for a good SUT are of no consequence.

[lurcher]

The thing is, normally you end up comparing two thing that are not the same, and coming to a invalid conclusion.

if you are using a SUT, the chances are you have a valve phono stage, if not, the chances are its a SS phono stage. Making the comparison:

( SUT + Valve stage ) against ( SS Phono stage )

Is not just comparing the presence or absence of SUT.

[MartinT]

Erm, I have a SS phono stage which can do MM or MC. Therefore I am comparing (SUT + SS) with (SS). It's a valid comparison and the SUT wins very comfortably on all counts - including noise.

[Artifolk]

This all seems to get very confusing for all, who like me haven't heard a Valve Phono, Sut/Valve Phono or Sut/SS Phono. To many variables for my liking, i can see why some make an expensive mistakes and end up changing.
In some ways my old Flat Earth approach (good or bad) has helped me not make the above mistake... though i may be a bit below par when it comes to SQ?, but the stage I'm using at present is by far the best I've used to date.
Then again maybe this approach has been holding me back.

[lurcher]

Erm, I have a SS phono stage which can do MM or MC. Therefore I am comparing (SUT + SS) with (SS). It's a valid comparison and the SUT wins very comfortably on all counts - including noise.

I stand corrected.

[Pete]

The quality of the SUT must also be taken into consideration. Using and inferior SUT in the comparison could well bring one to the conclusion that a jfet MC stage is better than an SUT.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The quality of the SUT must also be taken into consideration. Using and inferior SUT in the comparison could well bring one to the conclusion that a jfet MC stage is better than an SUT.

Correct, I'll be speccing out my SUT at some point in the next 2-3 months. I want to wait for my new PSU to come through the post and review the changes that it makes on my system before i think about buying a SUT. I'll be hopefully getting a similar SUT to Martin. I think SUT's do make a difference but I'll be trying the new ortofon SUT and hopefully this will convince me to purchase a SUT ;)

[lurcher]

The quality of the SUT must also be taken into consideration. Using and inferior SUT in the comparison could well bring one to the conclusion that a jfet MC stage is better than an SUT.

Yes, of course. I have not tried it with step ups beyond Tribute, S&B, Sowter and Lundahl.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Right time to update this thread. I have a Skype meeting organised with John from Choir Audio next week. I've asked for a customised version of the HM7 with Hashimoto transformer. I'll be going for balanced input and output through the SUT. I'll also have to get my tonearm cable (Nordost TYR) re-terminated. My question is what XLR's do I use? I would suspect that Furutech would be the best option?? I have asked for teflon coated silver for the intrinsic wiring. It looks like the Ortofon cadenza black will be well catered for by with the HM7. so i'm hoping for quite a set up. I'll hopefully now have a fully balanced vinyl replay system!

[HoraceW]

Interesting to read that a few people here have recently caught onto the Hashimoto SUT's as I've been using the HM-X ones for a while now. Used to use active devices including a Densen pre-pre and must say been pleased with the passive SUT way. There were Hashimoto trannies in a couple of Sansui amps I had in the past and they have always been top class products.

[jn229]

My brother in law and I purchased a used Graham Slee Ira Reflex Gold and Elevator. The plan was to split the pair, the stage to me, and the step up to him. Before the separation I had the option of keeping the Elevator for myself. In direct comparison with a Bryston ‘SUT’ over a period of a month, the difference was not significant and the Elevator was passed on. IMHO every system is different and an in system trial is the only way to know the effects of SUT verses electronic step up.

That said…………..the Elevator is far more versatile with its multiple gain and loading options. Regrets?

[MartinT]

I have a Skype meeting organised with John from Choir Audio next week.

Give John my regards, Andrew. My SUT-H7 still sounds magnificent.

By the way, I'll be taking it to the Scalford show in two weeks' time.

[Darren]

Jimmy Hughes is a big transformer coupling fan and puts the good sound and transparency of valve amps in part down to their use of output transformers.
He also used a number of impedance matching transformers through out his system at one point.
If Marco were here i bet he would use the words system synergy and careful matching......

[MartinT]

Marco's not the only one! Coupling transformers are all about synergy and I think they do it by impedance matching (not my idea) and maximising energy throughput (my idea). There is no doubt in my experience that a good SUT carries the excitement of a recording through far better than an active stage.

[DSJR]

Nordost Tyr interconnect, wondering what XLR's to use when all the recordings you listen to have used whatever the supplier supplied the studios with. All a hiding to nothing methinks...

Richard Dunn had some things of interest to say about transformers - they "transform" but have to juggle the voltage and current given since they can't add anything of their own except distortion.. Nick should be able to give chapter and verse on this and maybe valve phono stages have something to do with it, but transformers can't provide what isn't there and can only trade voltage into current, as in a valve amp output transformer and possibly similar in a pickup cartridge output - oh Gawd, I hope I'm right here... [edit] - see next post from MartinT re current-into-voltage transformation..

Use whichever you like the sound of. if a half decent SUT gives you the "flow" and "ease" you're looking for, then go right ahead. If a half decent ss mc input offers greater definition and you like this, then do that instead.. Me? I'd be interested in Nicks FET offering and ditch the Whest, which seems a lot of money for what should be a simple thing???????????

P.S. Either the above or upgrade to a London Decca :ner:

[MartinT]

they "transform" but have to juggle the voltage and current given since they can't add anything of their own except distortion.

No 'but' about it, that is exactly what they do:

P=IV (power = current x voltage)

The turns ratio roughly determines the voltage gain, and the current changes accordingly.

What an MC cartridge has is very low voltage output for stylus movement, but an abundance of current through the coils. A SUT takes that useful current and transforms it into a much higher voltage, preserving the energy output rather than throwing much of it away as in an active stage.

[DSJR]

Thank you for that :) I'll ammend my post above.