Upgrade Dilemma - DAC or Pre-amp? [Archive]

Bluedroog

12-01-2012, 18:41

As the title suggests really, in March I'll have up to around £800 to spend on an upgrade and am debating between a new DAC or pre-amp. My current system is a Squeezebox Touch > Beresford Caiman DAC > (direct into) Quad 909 > B&W 602 S2. I plan to upgrade the speakers next year so for now am only interested in DAC or pre-amp.

The Beresford is fine as a DAC but under whelming as a pre-amp, I had put a Croft Micro 25 pre-amp right to the top of my wanted list but with reports of the Audiolab M-DAC so favourable both as a DAC and a pre-amp(?) this has turned my head. I had put the Audiolab on a shortlist of potentially DAC's for an upgrade much further down the line but it wasn't a priority. Given I can get one of these now but any further upgrades will be perhaps a year off where would the money be best spent between the two for me in the short to medium term assuming I buy both ultimately. Or would adding the Croft be futile with the M-DAC (or similar) in place?

I'm sure the Croft would make a better pre than the M-DAC but the Audiolab has had good reports. But also I think the Audiolab is someway ahead of the Caiman as a DAC. How do you think the Croft and Caiman into my 909 would compare to the M-DAC on it's own?

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Reid Malenfant

12-01-2012, 18:50

Hi Christian, I hope you don't mind me asking a question as I might have a rather unusual solution for you to consider :)

It appears that you are only going to use a pre amp for digital, am I correct in assuming there will be nothing else connected to a pre amp if you go that route?

Welder

12-01-2012, 18:53

Dac.

Bluedroog

12-01-2012, 19:10

Thanks for the replies guys. Mark of course I don't mind, I welcome your questions. I'm assuming you're asking because the M-DAC can be used as a pre-amp? The only other thing is the pre-outs from a 5.1 AVR I use but this will always be secondary to music, although still a consideration as I do enjoy the odd blu-ray in surround.

Do you think the M-DAC as a pre-amp is good enough to warrant the Croft a futile stage in the chain? How do you think the same system would compare with just the M-DAc against the M-DAC and Croft? Is the Croft an unessicary extra stage or would it still add value?

The advantage I can see to getting the DAC first is it will be easier to judge how the Croft would work later down the line when it comes to demo. I just had my heart set on the Croft and am now thinking the M-DAC maybe a better all round bet right now.

Reid Malenfant

12-01-2012, 19:21

Hi again Christian, I don't think anyone would have a clue about my thinking :eyebrows:

Just about any DAC that has a volume control really won't have the best volume control. 99.9% will be compromises so I couldn't recommend any DAC with one & I haven't heard M-DAC.

I see you'd love a croft but can't afford one. So I'm going to make a bit of an odd suggestion that may well be worth looking into. You may know that the Caiman volume control is kind of a multi purpose thing & can indeed drive headphones or as you are an external power amp.

This is going to appear odd but I suggest you look into using a purpose built headphone amplifier to use as a pre amp. For starters they can swing more than enough voltage to drive your 909 & the volume control will be very high quality. They can also drive loads of current as they can drive headphones ;)

You'd like a Croft but can't afford one... How about a Schiit Valhalla which is a valve headphone amp & as Werner has discovered, very high quality :D

I know it sounds odd, but it would work :eyebrows:

jandl100

12-01-2012, 19:22

I'm not a fan of the M-DAC at all.
I've heard it - its has the "Audiolab sheen" in the treble, 2D imaging, dynamic blandness, a distinct lack of musical presence, superb bass control & definition, and a very enticing and impressive level of transparency and detail.
Overall, for me the negatives far outweigh the positives and I wouldn't choose to listen to it myself, at any cost! :nono:

Stay with the Beresford, it's a fine DAC, and get a new pre! :thumbsup:

Just IMO. :)

jon1

12-01-2012, 19:36

Bluedroog

12-01-2012, 19:39

Headphone amp as a pre?! Well I must say that's a new one on me. I'll certainly look into it, more leftfield than I was expecting!

The M-DAC was just a suggestion as it's in the kind of price range I'm thinking and has had a good reception, I haven't even heard one yet it was purley an example and given the views of most people who have heard it still on my shorlist but it's good to get both sides and I am aware obsequious memes can distort. My question should really refer to a DAC in the £500-£1,000 region.

To be fair to the Beresford I think I've forgotten how good it is as a DAC for the money since asking it to act as a pre as well, as a DAC I've always been more than happy with it but using it as a pre-amp has just made things a bit flat. If I were to bring in a decent pre-amp such as the Croft then the Beresford could go back to doing what it does best.

Mark - I'm refering to the Croft Micro 25 which is £700 I belive so within budget.

Reid Malenfant

12-01-2012, 19:42

Headphone amp as a pre?! Well I must say that's a new one on me. I'll certainly look into it, more leftfield than I was expecting!

Yes, well you can rely on me to think out of the box :rfl:

bluenose24

12-01-2012, 19:53

If it was me I would get a croft micro pure quality :eyebrows:

Nev

Reid Malenfant

12-01-2012, 20:01

To be fair to the Beresford I think I've forgotten how good it is as a DAC for the money since asking it to act as a pre as well, as a DAC I've always been more than happy with it but using it as a pre-amp has just made things a bit flat. If I were to bring in a decent pre-amp such as the Croft then the Beresford could go back to doing what it does best.

Mark - I'm refering to the Croft Micro 25 which is £700 I belive so within budget.
Oh it's a decent sounding DAC alright, I have used one :)

I'm 100% sure it'd sound vastly better with a pre amp on it's tail though rather than relying on the internal volume potentiometer. It also uses an IC to drive the output, be it headphones or the variable outputs. Put a decent discrete circuit there after the fixed outputs & it'd be a cracker... As I know it to be!

The Schiit Valhalla I mentioned is an OTL valve headphone amp by the way, so in a lot of respects like the Croft, but with what I'd suspect will be an even lower output impedance to drive headphones. Driving an amp would be a walk in the park for it.

I really don't know why I never thought of this before & I'm even considering it myself now :D

John

12-01-2012, 20:13

The Caiman a nice DAC so I keep the DAC it has loads more potential using Jplay
If it was my money I go for the pre, lots of nice options including Marks idea around a headamp

chrism

13-01-2012, 08:50

I use a modded Caiman as a preamp straight into a power amp. I used to have a "top notch" pre but really could not tell any difference when using the Caiman as a pre vs Caiman line out through a pre.

Unless you are into the black stuff I doubt that you will significantly better the Caiman variable output solution.

Spend a little of your hard earned modding!

Regards

Bluedroog

13-01-2012, 19:44

I am quite partial to Bovril but couldn’t drink a pint of it :cool:. In all seriousness though, I don’t use vinyl but wouldn’t rule it out in the future. Having said that space and budget dictates that it would be a way off so not too much of a consideration for now.

Out of interest what pre were you using before? I’m surprised you’re getting such good results as the Beresford as a pre for me just doesn’t cut it. I’ve actually now experimented with a Squeezebox Touch direct to my power amp and honestly think it sounds better without the Caiman. I’m hoping adding a pre and reintroducing the Caiman purely as a DAC will get the best from it and the system as a whole.

kininigin

13-01-2012, 22:02

Hi christian,

I was in a similiar position to you a couple of years ago and went for the croft.

I have never looked back,imo i think you should go for a quality pre amp.

As good as the beresford is (i haven't heard the m-dac or anything else) using it as a pre-amp,while good (i was perfectly happy using it this way) it's not ideal.I didn't know what i was missing,till i put the croft in :eyebrows:

Bluedroog

13-01-2012, 22:34

Sold. I wanted to hear that, thanks. :)

HighFidelityGuy

13-01-2012, 23:41

Hi Christian. I'm in a similar situation to you. I have a heavily modded Caiman which is connected to my power amp via a passive "pre-amp". Over the last few months I've had the opportunity to compare my Caiman against a different DAC and a CD player. Both of these gave a different flavour to the sound, with the common differences being extra emphasis to the midrange but less fine detail. This made the Caiman sound a bit less exciting but perhaps more accurate. I'm not sure how that compares to your experiences?

I recently got an Indeed G3 headphone amp that can be used as a preamp and I'm going to do some testing with that in place on my passive preamp over the weekend. A quick test tonight seemed to suggest that the G3 adds some extra body to the sound but not necessarily the added excitement I heard from swapping my DAC. So I need to do more testing.

One problem I've found using the G3 as a preamp is that it has too much gain for my power amp. I can only get it's volume control to 8 o'clock before things get a bit too loud.

So whatever route you decide to take I'll be interested to hear how you get on. :)

clap

14-01-2012, 00:08

I would get a valve pre and the Croft should be good.

wee tee cee

14-01-2012, 01:02

Christian,
I have recently introduced a musical fidelity m1 hpa into my system. The positive difference it made being utilised as a pre amp was not unsubtle. It also has an onboard dac that can take usb directly and is switchable on the front panel.
Marks thinking has certainly paid dividends for me.
The MF M1 DAC I use partners it very well.
Tony.

sq225917

14-01-2012, 01:07

I have the Mdac in my system there's no need for a pre-amp with it unless you specifically want some colouration added back in for taste. Nothing wrong with that choice of course.

Krisbee

14-01-2012, 09:41

Christian,

Don't let me stop you spending your money on a fine bit of Croft Kit (but didn't I read about gain mis-matches somewhere on AoS?).

I use a 7520 as a pre-amp into my Quad 306 amp. I would agree relying on the DAC's volume pot is not ideal, but I needed the convenience of a vol control within finger tip's reach.

A big big improvment came when I fitted a gator board. I know some folk reported problems with this mod and Stan discontinued them. My thoughts at the time are here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10046&highlight=gator

So if there's any chance of getting hold of a gator board or trying a Caiman SEG (if Stan has any left) give it a try ...

DSJR

14-01-2012, 10:04

Depending on your DIY skills, the Quad 909 apparently benefits by having the Quad-Bus circuit removed and new phono sockets fitted, connecting directly to the amp boards, thereby removing some unused and potentially distorting circuitry.

http://quadrevisionspot.blogspot.com/2010/08/improving-new-quad-909.html

The little Croft Micro Basic is a fine little preamp, should have a fine spec, inferring it doesn't add colourations as some older top end valve preamps do/did and the circuit has excellent form driving Quad amps (I've used Crofts of various ages, old and new to drive II's (enough gain), 303 and 405-2 (quiet enough) and 606's in the past (606 is only slightly different to a 909 under the cosmetics).

For a line driver with volume control, this has been recommended -

http://spl.info/index.php?id=184&L=1

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/spl/volume2.html

I'd probably suggest a Gator board for the Caiman (ask Stan) and in addition to the compulsory suggestion of getting a listen to the Rega DAC (a good solid mid price reference IMO), I must admit to sneaking regular glances at the Shiit Bifrost Dac too..

Sorry if my response is boringly predictable I apologise, but all I can do is suggest what I know is good to me and what I've actually tried..

StanleyB

14-01-2012, 10:27

If you got a TC-7520SEG, which has a slightly higher case, then the Silmic Gator (which some have referred to as the REV4 Gator in their email exchange) would be worth considering.

The Bushmaster won't have a variable output in its MK1 form, although I do use it with my poweramp since that has a variable input.

I'll put some pics up over the weekend of the added mods to the standard Gator in case any DIYers fancy doing the mods to their existing Gator.

MartinT

14-01-2012, 11:11

A good preamp is a vital central component in a system. Power amps simply don't like being driven from weedy volume pots or passive outputs. You already have a Caiman which has loads of potential for modding and can achieve very impressive results. For me the solution is obvious: preamp.

Bluedroog

14-01-2012, 12:26

Guys thank you so much for all your responses, I’m quite overwhelmed by the vast array of welcome advice and will consider everything that has been said, I really am very grateful for your time and welcome advice.

I have to admit I’m still torn but at least now I have more information to consider as I make my decision. As I said funds will take a while so I’ve time to really think about this, research some more (in detail some of what has been mentioned here). I’m obviously quite impressionable as I’ve changed my mind several times already!

I will try some of the Caiman mods as I really am quite fond of it as a DAC and would like to see what else I can get out of it. I’d also like to own a Croft as the way I see it I’d be getting a little bit of Hi-Fi history too, when Glenn hangs up his soldering iron I’d assume they would only become more sought after, I’d love to get one from new and cherish it for years to come.

I’ve guests over now so will re-read all your posts again when I’ve got a bit of time later to give them all my undivided attention.

Thanks gain to all who have contributed.

Gazjam

14-01-2012, 13:10

Regarding Marks "left field" suggestion of a headphone amp as a pre...?
I'd put forward this as a consideration:

http://www.templeaudio.net/xc3.html

From the specs....
Class A Mosfet active pre-amp output using Zetex Mosfets.
Can drive any length of cable and any type of power amp input stage.
Smart Headphone output.
Uses silver/gold relay to self mute when the headphones are connected.
High quality Gold Plated Connectors by Neutrik.
Alps volume pot on remote linkage

If its half as good as their amps its a cracker.