Technics SL12XX - Calming Her Down

[RobbieGong]

Hi, Need your help and experience with this one. Although my 1210mk5g often brings a big smile to my face, I'd say it's that slightly shouty presentation, (sometimes pretty shouty depending on the recording ie: Chaka Khan, oh my Gosh :eek:) and the sense that another layer needs removing that makes me feel like It's good but not quite there yet. Anyone got ideas with regard to dealing with this and maybe removing another layer of mushiness from the sound too ??
BTW and to help a bit, mods are KAB Fluid damper, Mike New Bearing. Cart is the 2M Black which some of you probably know i really really like :) Apart from this the arm remains standard (I like the arm to be honest and the fly on the wheel vta so would like to keep this). Stock 3.7mm mat also remains (I've tried a few but found the sound a fair bit better with the stock mat funnily enough ie: Herbies killed the sound big time in my set up, like someone stuck a blanket over the speakers, Speed mat changed the sound but not in a way I liked. The 5mm Achromat changed the sound to a very very small degree but not enough for the better to warrant me keeping it, I prefered with stock mat back on. So thats it, what to do next ?? :scratch:

[DSJR]

More dynamics from the Techie making your amp clip nastily? Speakers a bit rough and edgy in the upper mid? What feet has the techie got and what's it sitting on? Could be some subtle feedback going on and upsetting the arm, which isn't the massiest of beasts.....

[Wakefield Turntables]

Robert,

I dont know what feet your using under your 1210 but Sorbothane is known to dampen the shit out of the 1210 so you could try that under your 1210's current feet. You may also want to consider changing what your sitting your 1210 on. I prefer a solid wooden base. I have tried granite and even glass but I could not get on with either. I'm sure there are many more variables but I'll let some of the other more worldly wise aos'ers comment.;)

Andy

[RobbieGong]

More dynamics from the Techie making your amp clip nastily? Speakers a bit rough and edgy in the upper mid? What feet has the techie got and what's it sitting on? Could be some subtle feedback going on and upsetting the arm, which isn't the massiest of beasts.....

Hiya Dave - Similar symptoms sometimes i'd say. I forgot to mention feet upgraded to Isonoes. One of the speakers is closeish to the rack. Rack is tall with Techie sitting on the top glass shelf, quite high up, just below chin height. BTW I do have the feet screwed pretty tight this was to make the deck level after fiddling with turntable spirit level.

[Marco]

Hi Robert,

Easy one, this. It's the arm (and feet, if you are also still using the stock ones). I've been there and experienced exactly what you are doing now. No matter if the stock arm is rewired and/or fitted with a better headshell, that shoutiness you describe remains as a 'house signature'.

Fixing the problem is easy. Simply fit a Jelco SA-750D, and some Isonoe feet, and trust me, it'll be job (largely) done. Later on, when funds permit, fit a Funk Firm platter (as the stock platter also tends to add to the shouty effect) and that signature you're experiencing will disappear completely and be replaced with one of the most musical sounds imaginable! :cool:

Marco.

P.S When you've changed the arm, I also suspect that you'll be able to hear more of what the likes of an Achromat does. At the moment, the stock rubber mat is simply acting as a 'bandage', by masking some of the sonic faults of the stock arm.

[RobbieGong]

Hi Robert,

Easy one, this. It's the arm (and feet, if you are also still using the stock ones). I've been there and experienced exactly what you are doing now. No matter if the stock arm is rewired and/or fitted with a better headshell, that shoutiness you describe remains as a 'house signature'.

Fixing the problem is easy. Simply fit a Jelco SA-750D, and some Isonoe feet, and trust me, it'll be job (largely) done. Later on, when funds permit, fit a Funk Firm platter (as the stock platter also tends to add to the shouty effect) and that signature you're experiencing will disappear completely and be replaced with one of the most musical sounds imaginable! :cool:

Marco.

P.S When you've changed the arm, I also suspect that you'll be able to hear more of what the likes of an Achromat does. At the moment, the stock rubber mat is simply acting as a 'bandage', by masking some of the sonic faults of the stock arm.

Hi Marco, Hope ya good. Yeah, I wont lie, I've long suspected that the stock arm although fairly good, aint great and is to some degree a compromise as you go along the upgrade journey and want to really get the best out of the Techie. That said, I think the vta adjust is a real gem, hence I'll you ask now, how easy is vta adjust on the Jelco ? as it's a factor thats' important to me. I know the Jelco is said to be a better arm than the stock arm and I could be tempted, any info would be great. I'm loving trhe Techie but know I've gotta do more and go furthet. Does anyone know of a good alternative arm with on the fly vta ?? Also Marco, I too also suspect that the stock platter is a contibuter to the 'signature' that needs to go, I'm also in know doubt that the Funk Platter would be good. Looks like I'm gonna have to find a grand or so from somewhere - Oh 'eck !!! :lol: :rolleyes: :scratch: :doh: :eyebrows: ;)

[Marco]

Lol... Well, I can think of a tonearm candidate straight away - and it would be great if someone on AoS took the plunge and reported on it.


http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9829/funk0027ssl1200m.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/funk0027ssl1200m.jpg/)


Details here:

http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/Turntable_upgrades/SL1200_upgrade.html



Another major concern is SL1200’s arm. Once again, both design brief and budgetary constraints in manufacturing means that is an unashamedly cheap stock construction, with its arm pipe no different to any of the other myriad arms found on oh so many Japanese decks.
Surprisingly, however, we find two redeeming features: The delicate bearings are actually quite decent, whilst its VTA adjustment capability is legendary and has earned it many friends…if only the arm didn’t sound so bad, for when tracing a groove, each musical chord is characterised with a signature that has long been a source of sonic irritation to discerning ears.


Robbie, I'm convinced that this is *the* arm for you... Go on, take a punt on it. I seriously doubt you'd be disappointed! :)

Marco.

[RobbieGong]

Lol... Well, I can think of a tonearm candidate straight away - and it would be great if someone on AoS took the plunge and reported on it.


http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9829/funk0027ssl1200m.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/funk0027ssl1200m.jpg/)


Details here:

http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/Turntable_upgrades/SL1200_upgrade.html




Robbie, I'm convinced that this is *the* arm for you... Go on, take a punt on it. I seriously doubt you'd be disappointed! :)

Marco.


You're a blinkin' mind reader you are Marco :lol: I was going to mention this one earlier. Oh how i'd love someone to have tried it and give a review. If I had the funds I'd be the first - trust me :D
Btw I'm surprised there aint one single AOS member who's give it a try (that we know of that is ) !

[gx502]

Here's a simple tweak that i have made to my deck (SL1210-MK5, Isonoes, TS-std PSU, MN-bearing, SA-750D, Ortofon LH-6000 h/s, Ortofon Kontra-B MC), and it helps reduce the 'shouty' effect.

The improvement is fairly subtle, but the cost is close to zero, so its pretty worthwhile.

I removed the stock platter and gave it a tap with my fingers, and noted that it suffers from ringing.

Upon further tapping and trying to localise the source of the ringing, i realised that most of the resonance was not coming from the platter itself, but from the circular boss on the underside of the platter that holds on the magnet assembly.

When you examine this boss it appears to be a cheap pressed part made on some kind of stamping machine. Inside the centre of the boss you see some holes close to where the magnet boss assembly attaches to the platter.

I simply spent about 5-10 mins stuffing these holes with Blu-Tac.

After the Blu-Tac has been applied if you repeat the test of tapping the complete platter assembly with your fingers/knuckles you realise that most of the resonance/noise has gone.

When I gave the deck a listen, I noticed a calmer presentation overall and I seemed to notice minor melodies lifting out of the mix easier and becoming more noticeable/intelligible.

Ayhows its a simple tweak, and worked very well for me.

ciao
Rav

[RobbieGong]

Here's a simple tweak that i have made to my deck (SL1210-MK5, Isonoes, TS-std PSU, MN-bearing, SA-750D, Ortofon LH-6000 h/s, Ortofon Kontra-B MC), and it helps reduce the 'shouty' effect.

The improvement is fairly subtle, but the cost is close to zero, so its pretty worthwhile.I removed the stock platter and gave it a tap with my fingers, and noted that it suffers from ringing.

Upon further tapping and trying to localise the source of the ringing, i realised that most of the resonance was not coming from the platter itself, but from the circular boss on the underside of the platter that holds on the magnet assembly.

When you examine this boss it appears to be a cheap pressed part made on some kind of stamping machine. Inside the centre of the boss you see some holes close to where the magnet boss assembly attaches to the platter.

I simply spent about 5-10 mins stuffing these holes with Blu-Tac.

After the Blu-Tac has been applied if you repeat the test of tapping the complete platter assembly with your fingers/knuckles you realise that most of the resonance/noise has gone.

When I gave the deck a listen, I noticed a calmer presentation overall and I seemed to notice minor melodies lifting out of the mix easier and becoming more noticeable/intelligible.

Ayhows its a simple tweak, and worked very well for me.

ciao
Rav


Cheers Rav, Thanks for the tip. I think it's great when we can all share our cost effective tips. The Techie is a great deck and a keeper for me. It responds so well to upgrades and in my experience has got better with each one. That said the slightly shouty signature remains apparent, probably due to a combination of arm and platter resonanances from those parts which remain stock in my system AND are often said to not be ideal in terms of true audiophilia. Unfortunately addressing this issue by upgrading those two areas costs a lot of wonga, near on £1.5K so anything that can help in the interim 'til funds permit is received with thanks - :)

[DSJR]

if a full arm replacement is out of the current scene, why not see about stuffing the pipe with foam to damp out the excess ringing? Johnnie has done a few I understand (Audio Origami) and if you wanted a before and after and you're ok with soldering, replacement Techie arms are available on ebay for not much dosh.......

[MCRU]

Its easy saying fit a Jelco arm or funk platter and funk arm but get back into the real world, these things cost serious amounts of wonga, most of us have to save up for months for these luxuries, and then something else gets in the way say a blown tyre or an MOT, it's all glamorous stuff but be sensible! :)

Just went and blu takked my Tech, works, so thanks for that one....:)

[Marco]

Its easy saying fit a Jelco arm or funk platter and funk arm but get back into the real world, these things cost serious amounts of wonga, most of us have to save up for months for these luxuries, and then something else gets in the way say a blown tyre or an MOT, it's all glamorous stuff but be sensible!


Absolutely, but sometimes there is no alternative but to spend money, in order to fundamentally (and permanently) fix a problem. And I believe that this is such an occasion. Successfully addressing the route cause of a problem is always preferable to merely applying a bandage :)

Marco.

[MCRU]

Absolutely, but sometimes there is no alternative but to spend money, in order to fundamentally (and permanently) fix a problem. And I believe that this is such an occasion. Successfully addressing the route cause of a problem is always preferable to merely applying a bandage :)

Marco.

Yes of course but I know people who use bandages permanently and are fine :lol:

They are even fashion statements, but like you pimped up tech :ner:

[RobbieGong]

Its easy saying fit a Jelco arm or funk platter and funk arm but get back into the real world, these things cost serious amounts of wonga, most of us have to save up for months for these luxuries, and then something else gets in the way say a blown tyre or an MOT, it's all glamorous stuff but be sensible! :)

Just went and blu takked my Tech, works, so thanks for that one....:)

Hi Dave, I remain in the real world, trust me on that, hence I dont have those desirable (some would say ultimately necessary) bits of kit. Dont have the funds and wont be doing a bank job :lol:. That said, they will remain on the radar until such time ;)

[drrd]

Here's a simple tweak that i have made to my deck (SL1210-MK5, Isonoes, TS-std PSU, MN-bearing, SA-750D, Ortofon LH-6000 h/s, Ortofon Kontra-B MC), and it helps reduce the 'shouty' effect.

The improvement is fairly subtle, but the cost is close to zero, so its pretty worthwhile.

I removed the stock platter and gave it a tap with my fingers, and noted that it suffers from ringing.

Upon further tapping and trying to localise the source of the ringing, i realised that most of the resonance was not coming from the platter itself, but from the circular boss on the underside of the platter that holds on the magnet assembly.

When you examine this boss it appears to be a cheap pressed part made on some kind of stamping machine. Inside the centre of the boss you see some holes close to where the magnet boss assembly attaches to the platter.

I simply spent about 5-10 mins stuffing these holes with Blu-Tac.

After the Blu-Tac has been applied if you repeat the test of tapping the complete platter assembly with your fingers/knuckles you realise that most of the resonance/noise has gone.

When I gave the deck a listen, I noticed a calmer presentation overall and I seemed to notice minor melodies lifting out of the mix easier and becoming more noticeable/intelligible.

Ayhows its a simple tweak, and worked very well for me.

ciao
Rav

Hi Rav, cheers for this tip it really does work :)

[RobbieGong]

Hi Rav, cheers for this tip it really does work :)

Yep ! This one will be gettiing done first chance I get ie: Mrs n kids out n about time :D P.S: Rav, might be one for Strokes of Genius me reckons :)

[Stratmangler]

Thanks for the tip Rav.
Works a treat :D

[Nigel]

Any chance of of a pic of the bluetac tweak for the less competent? Myself included.

[RobbieGong]

Any chance of of a pic of the bluetac tweak for the less competent? Myself included.

Did cross my mind that one ! I think others would definately appreciate too :)

[prestonchipfryer]

Did cross my mind that one ! I think others would definately appreciate too :)

Yes please Robert a piccy would be good. :)

John

[RobbieGong]

Yes please Robert a piccy would be good. :)

John

Spoke to Rav and Pics are due to follow - watch this space :)

[Mike_New]

Hi Folks;
I have been reading the various posts concerning filling the ‘inside bits’ with Blu-Tac.

I looked at this problem sometime ago when I was contemplating the problem of the platter and came up with an even more effective solution.

Filling the inside of the Magnet Ring area with liquid Epoxy Resin up to the bottom level of the ferrite magnet ring. I actually got some epoxy to do the job when I moved across to developing the Alluminium platter as a result of requests here and elsewhere at the time.
This epoxy can be obtained from suppliers such as RS electronics for a few dollars. It is the common material use for ‘potting’ electronic assemblies.

This approach totally bonds the “loosely” connected components of the magnet assembly to the centre part of the platter as a whole and should greatly improve the sonics as has been discovered using Blue-Tac.

One of the problems is that the pressed metal cage for the magnet, is only held to the platter by three small self-tap screws. I improved on this (as a first level upgrade), by re-threading the holes to take 4mm dia button headed Allen Screws.

There is a caveat on the use of Epoxy Resin, This is a one-way upgrade which cannot be reversed, in that once the resin has hardened the whole assembly cannot be dismantled. An alternative to epoxy is to use silicon filler as some have done (including myself) on the chassis assembly.

For those who do not want to take this ultimate step, the next best thing to do is to indeed use the Blue-Tac idea, but to remove the magnet assembly and to totally fill the area below the level of the steel plate with BT and then to push the magnet assembly down firmly onto it before inserting the three self tap screws and tightening them. This will have the effect of really damping any possible looseness in this area. A thin layer of BT on the machined surface which the edge of the steel plate sits on will also improve things.

Removal of the magnet ring assembly is not fraught with danger, as those who have my Alluminium platter will confirm. It is designed to only be assembled in the one position.

When you remove the magnet assembly you will find that the inside of the magnet is only very loosely located onto the four machined spigots on the platter. And the outer edge of the steel ring is located onto the outer machined surface of the platter.

I must agree that in these economic times in the UK and Europe generally, for many the above solutions represent a far more economical path to improved sonics from the platter than the purchase of an Alluminium or acrylic one.

[Stratmangler]

For those who do not want to take this ultimate step, the next best thing to do is to indeed use the Blue-Tac idea, but to remove the magnet assembly and to totally fill the area below the level of the steel plate with BT and then to push the magnet assembly down firmly onto it before inserting the three self tap screws and tightening them. This will have the effect of really damping any possible looseness in this area.

This is what I did Mike, and, as you have said, it it works very well indeed :)

[MartinT]

For me, the primary causes of shoutiness were the stock platter and the inner large and small plastic covers. Removal of the two latter items costs nothing and is quite effective.

[gx502]

As requested by Robbie, here is a pic. Its been quite a long time since I added the BluTac, seems I only filled the 4 larger holes.

(You will also notice that I put some BluTac on the 3 large slots under the platter, on this one I could not notice any sonic difference. It was putting BluTac under the magnet assembly that gave a noticeable sonic improvement.)

When I get time to myself, I may take Mike's advice and remove the magnet assembly and add more BluTac.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7173/6666102259_2978dfc0b1.jpg

Also here is a pic of my SL1210, the whole thing this time:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6666100909_b25fc22831.jpg

[RobbieGong]

Thanks guys, some terrific stuf coming through ! AOS is indeed the best !! :thumbsup:

[Magna Audio]

Here's another cheap one you can try on the arm. Get some heat shrink that will just fit over the socket. Black or funky colour if preferred.
Push on.
Apply gentle heat from a hair driver or heat gun if you have one - careful not to scorch anything. Once shrunk on trim off where the socket is and see if that dampens it - Easily removed if you don't like it. If you do like it you could try another layer or perhaps 2 more" to see the effect. Perhaps the bundle won't fit in the armholder and you may have to adjust the lift as the arm diameter will increase - one layer should be fine though.

Also I've wondered if another arm base could be fitted within the Technics adjustable VTA base? - and also what it would sound like... Could be good or bad but VTA adjust would be nice / easy.
Not sure of the geometry & space available as I don't have said deck or arm base any more but with some machining it is perhaps possible.

[prestonchipfryer]

As requested by Robbie, here is a pic. Its been quite a long time since I added the BluTac, seems I only filled the 4 larger holes.

(You will also notice that I put some BluTac on the 3 large slots under the platter, on this one I could not notice any sonic difference. It was putting BluTac under the magnet assembly that gave a noticeable sonic improvement.)

When I get time to myself, I may take Mike's advice and remove the magnet assembly and add more BluTac.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7173/6666102259_2978dfc0b1.jpg

Also here is a pic of my SL1210, the whole thing this time:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6666100909_b25fc22831.jpg

Thanks Rav, off to get some BT. Thanks.

John

[Gromit]

Well, whaddaya know - this little trick really works quite well. :)

Its effect is subtle, but noticeable nontheless. With mine, I removed the magnet boss and ended up with just 3 relatively small blobs stuck to the back of it, but only just touching the actual platter itself. Filling the whole void with BT seemed to over-egg the pud a little in my rig, making it sound a little too soft and slow.

A great little tip, Rav - thank you! :)

[gx502]

No probs - also thanks to Mike and others for sharing their knowledge.