2/3/4/5 way horn build [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Magna Audio

05-01-2012, 09:25

It all started out as a pair of conicals on top of GRF's used as bass bins.

12 compound angle petals

http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/33065/2226826480071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2226826480071997495OYzGVe)

http://inlinethumb21.webshots.com/1236/2530069710071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2530069710071997495lrAsNc)

Glued

http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/28125/2993643640071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2993643640071997495NSRwGi)

Used 2 pack filler to make smooth transition from 12 sides to round - the throat is the key or else they sound weird / possibly honk.

Loaded with a JBL 2435Be compression driver

up and running

http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/46626/2712525220071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2712525220071997495oQflhc)

As a 3 way - time aligned (crucial for really cohesive sound)

http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/32097/2130673540071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2130673540071997495ltdhoE)

on to 4 way

http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/46863/2227399430071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2227399430071997495UWtwUv)

http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/45159/2743786000071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2743786000071997495xXkzPH)

The mid horns are 76cm long and weigh ~25kgs.

GRF cabs with Eminence Kappa Pro LFII drivers upto 330Hz
Mid horn JBL 2482 driver , 330Hz upto 1250Hz
Upper mid JBL2435Be 1250Hz - 9000Hz
Eminence cheaper tweeter 9000Hz - 20000Hz

A pair

http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/46352/2233096330071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2233096330071997495KyyBAd)

Thinking about the mid bass now - front loading
Modelling it

http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/44791/2359075430071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2359075430071997495SnBaEa)

Cutting out

http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/45661/2316978140071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2316978140071997495dhXoDk)

http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/48199/2055877060071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2055877060071997495bMfJCJ)

http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/47197/2818695410071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2818695410071997495UcZGbX)

Back chamber for a Eminence Kappa 15"

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/10605/2194252700071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2194252700071997495FvGANB)

Installed

http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/46296/2237163280071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2237163280071997495IXmTzY)

Big - 92cm mouth, ~1.3m long
http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/46067/2047740520071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2047740520071997495uMehRg)

Quick lash up for a test

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/29629/2417912870071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2417912870071997495kLWBTp)

To Be Continued

Magna Audio

05-01-2012, 09:49

Now as a 5 way with the GRF's filling in the bass

http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/31719/2746541860071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2746541860071997495FGuQKA)

Mid bass 90Hz to 330Hz
GRF 90Hz and below.

Now for some tapped horns. Modelled from 22Hz to 90Hz nicely

http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/46741/2055374990071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2055374990071997495yTIufT)

http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/46684/2452248370071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2452248370071997495jpRaya)

http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/47606/2554494220071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2554494220071997495BAJLns)

Reusing the 15" Eminence LFII's as they modelled best out of the many drivers I tried.

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/48599/2741222680071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2741222680071997495EsFaua)

URL=http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2772892850071997495gQVzWA]http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/48090/2772892850071997495S600x600Q85.jpg[/URL]

http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/46463/2144148770071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2144148770071997495FCHIni)

http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/45634/2644022480071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2644022480071997495QvZmKK)

Amplification - I moved from 1 amp with 5 way crossover and lots of L-pads to 5 amps with no L-Pads (L-pads on compression drivers are the work of the devil).

http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/49743/2152819310071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2152819310071997495mBWdBu)

Tapped and mid bass amps are Topping TP-60 50wpc into 8ohm.
Mid and upper mid horns are Icon Audio EL84 5W SET amps.
Tweeter has a TP22 T-amp still...

The dinky Set amps

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/47090/2488231130071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2488231130071997495FactDj)

The T-amps
http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/47898/2054969310071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2054969310071997495vMwjLD)

Stands (the wood ones were just lash-ups)
http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/50064/2184412380071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2184412380071997495ZVlQPn)

Trial hanging

http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/46709/2547120680071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2547120680071997495mJXZMS)

As Marco heard them just before Christmas

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/46829/2596058610071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2596058610071997495zyvcfo)

U-bolt hangers - adjustment by ratchet spanner.

http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/46746/2722439420071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2722439420071997495rDlxUZ)

Xmas reading up on horn mouth termination. Testing it first

http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/46763/2528162960071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2528162960071997495sQUucw)

Then do it proper - upper mids

http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/48393/2258090250071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2258090250071997495LWFzyo)

http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/47900/2167497600071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2167497600071997495QRUnVC)

Liked the results so on to Mid horns too

http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/47751/2106003360071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2106003360071997495IvSdUN)

(Note tweeter is now a borrowed JBL2405 (16ohm)

Next evolution was the tweeters. The JBL2405's are not bad - they just did not quite keep up with the 2435Be's.

Enter the Raal Lazy Ribbon's

http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/49697/2149576830071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2149576830071997495YSoSim)

http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/46568/2633149460071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2633149460071997495KEwHKh)

These went in last night and need proper time alignment and more space (raising the upper mid and mid horns a bit more) but already it's very promising.

This kit now plays with a scale and finesse that I've not heard anywhere before.

Now I need to calm down a bit for a while I think... and just listen.

But a few things on the to do list are:
1. Raise the horns a bit more
2. Time align properly
3. Try LR crossover on the tapped horns
4. Try a SET on the Raal's & acquire said if it does the business
5. Curve the mouths on the bass horns (more for aesthetics than anything)

howlindawg

05-01-2012, 09:57

Wrong thread Steve?

Love the work on the horn mouths. :eek:

MartinT

05-01-2012, 10:04

Fantastic work, Steve! I can see that an ebony armboard would be entirely trivial for you. I'd love a quick listen to your system when I pop over next week :)

Magna Audio

05-01-2012, 13:25

Oops sorry for that.
Thought I'd put that lot into the DIY gallery one - my mistake:oops:

Perhaps a mod can move it all? I've PM'd Marco.

Wrong thread Steve?

Love the work on the horn mouths. :eek:

Magna Audio

05-01-2012, 13:33

Yeah course. I'll have the ribbons on full song by then...

Fantastic work, Steve! I can see that an ebony armboard would be entirely trivial for you. I'd love a quick listen to your system when I pop over next week :)

sq225917

05-01-2012, 16:17

Any chance of an in room response Steve?

Magna Audio

05-01-2012, 20:36

I have some I did a while back & will look them out but I don't have the measuring equip any more to do it. I hope to borrow it again and check time alignments.

Any chance of an in room response Steve?

Artifolk

05-01-2012, 22:16

Wow. Nothing like a permanent Horn.:lol:

Blame Marco for this, he's corrupting me in the Three Word daily thread.

Seriously though, they look Truly stunning, I'm in total awe with some of the DIY on AoS
Congrats on the skill/workmanship involved, i take my hat off to you sir.

Magna Audio

06-01-2012, 00:20

Well on the to do list I did the following today.

1. Raise the horns a bit more - (tick) It improved the cohesion and I like to see all of the horns form the listening chair they should not overlap in my opinion)
2. Time align properly - (tick but not measured) Def improved the sound. When right or close to things just snap into focus and sound right.
3. Try LR crossover on the tapped horns - (awaiting components)
4. Try a SET on the Raal's & acquire said if it does the business - (hmm sounds so good as is just now)
5. Curve the mouths on the bass horns (more for aesthetics than anything) - (someday)

The Raal Lazy Ribbons are just sublime - they do so much right, spot on and great immediacy with finesse. I did not realise how much they would actually do for the system. You think 9000Hz up well... But it is critical.

More listening tomorrow of course.

bobbasrah

06-01-2012, 06:28

Forever fascinated by horns, GRFs, etc, and constantly amazed by the skills and workmanship that go into their fabrication.
Stunning stuff....

Magna Audio

06-01-2012, 11:31

I was not perhaps blown away by my first Tannoy listening but I did hear potential. The GRF raised the game a bit. My first real mid/upper horn listening was Vitavox S2 on a conical at 500Hz upwards.
From there it just sort of carried on.

Just now these are the peak of what I think I can achieve sound wise.
I will no doubt dabble with Tractrix and Le Cleac'h too on the upper mids and Mids but Le Cleac'h gets impractically big as you lower the frequencies.

The rolled off mouth termination and the Lazy Ribbons have had a very positive effect on
the upper frequencies indeed.
It just keeps getting better.

Now though I've reached a stage where I can put something like Bach Toccata BVW 565 on and just be amazed by the scale and power of the organ bass frequencies akin to being in front of a large church organ, of course not the same as this is playback, but it is happening in my room! I can follow the play all the way up to the light & very fast stuff. They never run out of puff or strain.

Violin work has become a joy to listen to.

A few visitors both audiophiles and non-audiophiles have used the word effortless.

Horns really are where it is at for me. 2 and 3 way solutions struggle as you are asking each horn to cover too wide a freq range and they struggle - 5 way is the thing.

John

06-01-2012, 13:57

I love seeing Obsession like this. I am sure it sounds amazing Steve

realysm42

06-01-2012, 17:36

Amazing looking work.

Out of interest, if you were to increase the angles in the horns to infinity (essentially creating a circle) what would that do to the sound, improve it? Conversely, if you were to lower it right down, say to four edges to create a square horn, what would that do?

Did you choose the amount of angles/side to your horns for convenience or the acoustic impact?

What do you plan to finish them in? I assume there's an optimal coat of something or other to get the desired sound you'd like?

Sorry about the terminology above, not really sure how to articulate myself properly lol.

Jonboy

06-01-2012, 20:48

Really like these your skills and patience are abounding, i have been following the thread over on the dark side :)

Spur07

06-01-2012, 21:44

when I visited you last year steve you never struck me as the obsessive type, has someone been spiking your coffee in the mornings? :)

seriously though, excellent work. Lucky you now got a dedicated listening room to put it all in, don't think there'd be much room left in your lounge.

Magna Audio

07-01-2012, 00:17

I think essentially the number of sides does not make a substantial difference to the sound. You see all manner of number of sides out there in both commercial and DIY horns. Certainly bass frequencies can be 4 sided no problem.
Rectangular ones are used to ensure even sound dispersal in venues for example.
Some say that an odd number of sides would be beneficial - don't know if you could hear that though...
Flare rate, throat and mouth area and mouth termination have an enormous effect and getting the right ones for the driver and frequency range is key.

I chose 12 sided cos I'd heard a 12 sided conical and it sounded good at the upper frequencies I wanted, they look nice and are fiddly enough. After that I just carried on with 12 sided down the spectrum to match.

Finish (eventually and perhaps before Scalford) will be beech flavoured varnish, sprayed on.

Amazing looking work.

Out of interest, if you were to increase the angles in the horns to infinity (essentially creating a circle) what would that do to the sound, improve it? Conversely, if you were to lower it right down, say to four edges to create a square horn, what would that do?

Did you choose the amount of angles/side to your horns for convenience or the acoustic impact?

What do you plan to finish them in? I assume there's an optimal coat of something or other to get the desired sound you'd like?

Sorry about the terminology above, not really sure how to articulate myself properly lol.

Magna Audio

07-01-2012, 00:18

Dr Jimmy and Mr Jim - I guess:)

No they are a little large but actually footprint wise are not so much more consuming than say a finicky rear ported floor standing cat coffin.

when I visited you last year steve you never struck me as the obsessive type, has someone been spiking your coffee in the mornings? :)

seriously though, excellent work. Lucky you now got a dedicated listening room to put it all in, don't think there'd be much room left in your lounge.

MartinT

07-01-2012, 10:10

finicky rear ported floor standing cat coffin.

Or in my case, a boat :lol:

Magna Audio

07-01-2012, 16:19

They are not cat coffins Martin - 2 x 11" bass drivers should be ok. Seem to go in the corners pretty well too.

Wait till you hear Bach and my fav Baroque piece recorded in St Peters church (Stockholm) using the organ as bass accompanier only - I never even heard the lowest notes on my previous speaker inc 15" Tannoy's / GRF's.

Or in my case, a boat :lol:

Magna Audio

07-01-2012, 16:24

They are def not cat coffins Martin - 2 x 11" bass drivers should be ok. Seem to go in the corners pretty well too.

Wait till you hear Bach and my fav Baroque piece recorded in St Peters church (Stockholm) using the organ as bass accompanier only - I never even heard the lowest notes on my previous speaker inc 15" Tannoy's / GRF's.

Or in my case, a boat :lol:

MartinT

07-01-2012, 23:20

Can't wait - I love good fundamentals from a well-recorded organ. I have a couple of recordings from the Ruffatti in Davies Symphony Hall, San Francisco. Now *that* organ is simply awesome.

Magna Audio

08-01-2012, 11:26

Looks impressive.
http://www.ruffatti.com/specs/davies.html

Be interesting to see how 4 15" horn loaded bass drivers cope with those long pipes.

Can't wait - I love good fundamentals from a well-recorded organ. I have a couple of recordings from the Ruffatti in Davies Symphony Hall, San Francisco. Now *that* organ is simply awesome.

MartinT

08-01-2012, 12:26

Yep - you can really feel that 64' pipe. I'll bring the CD along.

Magna Audio

08-01-2012, 17:55

Here are some measurements done quite a while ago (I have since cleaned the bass up with better room placement of the tapped horns and different crossover components.

All done with the mic exactly where my ear is.

All five together
http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/47451/2196920380071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2196920380071997495RvjZAB)

As you can see from this there is quite a lot of what I believe is room going on in the bass region. It was similar for my GRF cabs. Our ears don't quite work like this and it does not sound lumpy, nor do test tones at 5Hz gaps sound strange or much lower in vol as the measurements would suggest.

I did measure each horn at mouth and they are pretty flat (apart from the tapped horn) / like the modelling would suggest.

Here is each driver in it's crossover range.
Tapped crossing horn 20Hz - 90Hz
http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/47003/2266548620071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2266548620071997495deNkpM)

Mid bass crossing 90Hz to 330Hz
http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/46443/2092372290071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2092372290071997495kYTTWB)

This is a result of using a Bessel calc which gives a slight peak - LR gives flatter so I use that now.

Mid horn crossing 330 to 1250Hz
http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/47102/2716023040071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2716023040071997495eTnZII)

Upper horn crossing 1250 to 10000Hz
http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/45781/2490671400071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2490671400071997495ZmvkEp)

Tweeter crossing 9000Hz to inf. This is the cheapy Eminence horn tweeter not the lovely Raal Lazy Ribbon
http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/48035/2663788850071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2663788850071997495BoiVty)

The tweeter plays pretty flat to 20Khz on its own but as a 5 way it looks like it needs more power. I then had only have 4 amps and the tweeter and tapped horn (similar
efficiency) are powered by one amp.

I now have 5 amps of course.

All of these are 2nd order. Some have said 2nd order cannot tame a tapped horn - they could well be right esp if you intend to drive them very loud in a small room.
I can pressurise the room so it is uncomfortable to be in it - but that is not music or how I use them...

This is pre-mouth rounding / termination so they may measure better now.

I need to give it another go sometime...

daveskis

09-01-2012, 22:17

Excellent work Steve, would love to hear them.

Magna Audio

09-01-2012, 22:56

That'll be quite a journey! But if you are ever passing Surrey no problem:)

Excellent work Steve, would love to hear them.

Reid Malenfant

09-01-2012, 23:19

MartinT

09-01-2012, 23:29

My room response curve is like that, Mark. It doesn't sound the way it looks, it's just the way real speakers interact with real rooms.

Reid Malenfant

09-01-2012, 23:42

My room response curve is like that, Mark. It doesn't sound the way it looks, it's just the way real speakers interact with real rooms.
Martin, though you can't do it I'd suggest you get an Anti-mode 8033... You can't as your speakers have bass units that go well into the midrange to cross over to that Beryllium 5".

Room modes can be gotten rid of, I have a flat response here from 16Hz upwards, no room modes except at frequencies above 150Hz where they are less damaging & more easily absorbable by room treatment.

Yes I know real speakers will interact with a room & boost things where the wavelength of the reproduced frequency co-incides with the room dimensions, but 20Db+ takes the mickey :eek:

Let me ask you if you have ever designed & built a loudspeaker?

If not I rest my case ;)

MartinT

10-01-2012, 07:05

Hi Mark

No I've not designed speakers. However, I've measured the last three pairs I've owned several times each in three different houses. That bass peak is typical of all the measurements I've taken and simply reflects the way large passive floorstanders respond in a typical rectangular room. The sound does not reflect the peak in the way you would expect and indeed when I measure near-field at low volumes (to reduce the room impact), things have been fine.

I am not interested in inserting digital room correction into my analogue chain as I prefer to preserve my precious signal rather than chop it up and reconstruct it. Horses for courses, I think.

Reid Malenfant

10-01-2012, 16:31

If it's a room mode then as you say it'd alter in frequency given different room dimensions.

You'd have to have a much more invasive system than these little black boxes as you have passive speakers & they only correct up to 150Hz, in fact they have a 150Hz low pass bessel filter in there.

While I don't mind using DSP below 100Hz (low pass crossover frequency setting on the DCX2496) I'm like yourself & wouldn't even contemplate the thought of DSP correction on any frequency above that :nono:

Magna Audio

11-01-2012, 11:29

Your loss:)

My Tannoy HPD's produced a not dissimilar result but not going so deep.
In the real world that is not how it really sounds and I have made some changes since measured but without dicking with my analogue signal - don't want to do that DSP is not really an option. Can you do it purely on below 100Hz and still have the rest pure analogue and the timing is ok? That could be an option.

Measuring at the mouth and perhaps one day I will measure them in the garden i expect the trace to be pretty flat as modelled. but of course we don't listen in the garden.

Out of interest here is what several wammers have written about the sound

Coco "I was really looking forward to hearing these as this similar to what I plan to do with my own system.
I certainly wasn't disappointed. They sound absolutely effortless - you get a sense of incredible power, but completely under control. The tapped horn bass is like nothing you've ever heard before. It just pressurises the room and makes it feel like it's not even trying. Like distant thunder!"

and after later listening

"it sounded very good indeed! It has amazing presence and a really effortless presentation. The tube amp has sweetened the upper mid which sounds less grey and more vivid than I previously remember. The slight residual bloom on the upper bass has been eliminated, too. As for the way they pressurise the room at LF... I imagine they could be used as a weapon/torture device!
Everyone should hear this, time for a bake off?
Edit: Oh and they are f**cking enormous. Nothing prepares you for quite how large they are. Even having seen them several times, they still shock me. The photos just don't capture the sheer volume they take up!"

Montesquieu "the clarity of Steve's setup is something else. I think the emotional connection is really there in spades, so direct and detailed, but far from dry and clinical. Quite an achievement there, Steve."

ADPully "I had to listen to the fabled bass on Steves system today it truely was pretty amazing. Total control authority and power."

Alfie "As I said in the SPU & FR thread these really sounded very special last night words fail to describe how well they hang together, well when Basshead Steve's not turning up the bass & mid-bass horns a little to high!
They are stunning from the woodwork of the conicals through to that effortless sound! "

Turning Japenese "I can confirm the bass is mightily impressive (as is the whole system) and enjoyed a very pleasant evening yesterday on the flimsy excuse of picking up the cabs for nick"

Martin heard them yesterday too.

Some of the above have twisted my arm in to taking them to Scalford so many people can hear them.
It will be very interesting to hear them in a bigger room and hopefully measure there too.

Don't think I'd want to listen to that unless you get it flat...

Reid Malenfant

11-01-2012, 15:46

Can you do it purely on below 100Hz and still have the rest pure analogue and the timing is ok? That could be an option.
Yes, that is what I said I believe :)

While the Anti-mode works on any room modes & eliminates them up to 150Hz, I'm only feeding the bass drivers below 100Hz, driven actively.

I also know what deep bass sounds like as I have no problem reproducing down to 15Hz in room & have quite a bit of musical material with sub 20Hz content.

If you were nearer & I had a car I would bring both the Anti-modes over, the difference they make is in no way subtle :eyebrows: They are the best investment I have ever made & yet things were pretty good prior to there installation.

Magna Audio

11-01-2012, 16:10

NP - I've just ordered two mono ones - lets see what that brings to the party.
I will borrow the measuring equip again and see...

Reid Malenfant

11-01-2012, 17:37

I'll be very surprised indeed if you are disappointed :)

As you are using tapped horns & what look like efficient drivers, make sure you turn the power amps a good way down before calibrating. It does mention this in the literature. I eventually recalibrated at a few different levels as I found the output on mine a bit too low on calibration. You'll have probably 10 - 15Db more output for a similar input so be warned.

These devices only cut output, so you may need to increase the power amp output above what it's set at now to bring them back into line with the next horns up the range after calibration. If I remember correctly I upped mine by 3Db

I feel sure the results will be worth it though, I found the difference pretty staggering & would never contemplate being without them! Steve (Electric Beach) also found similar when he installed on in his system.

Have fun, I feel pretty sure you are going to :D

Magna Audio

11-01-2012, 19:28

Yeah - It'll be interesting.
Arrives on Friday...

realysm42

12-01-2012, 09:56

What are room modes? Is it the acoustic properties of a room?

MartinT

12-01-2012, 10:08

It's when a wavelength resonates with a room's dimensions - length, width and height each exciting a particular frequency and pressurising the room with boomy bass.

bobbasrah

12-01-2012, 10:55

It's when a wavelength resonates with a room's dimensions - length, width and height each exciting a particular frequency and pressurising the room with boomy bass.

And I seem to recollect Martin that the diagonals can come into play also, but the 3 principal frequencies are as you state above. Seems not so obvious at low to moderate listening levels, but once the volume is cranked up a bit, it booms all right, albeit occasional, but nevertheless intrusively.:doh:
Although normally impossible to kill, wideband attenuation such as corner traps does seem to raise the volume threshold at which they become intrusive, especially in a concrete box such as my own abode.:rolleyes:

Is the result a specific dB cut at those 3 detected frequencies across the range or as a %age?

MartinT

12-01-2012, 13:57

Yes indeed, diagonals do it too, creating a whole set of resonances. As for a specific level of required cut, I couldn't say.

Magna Audio

12-01-2012, 14:15

Having control of the 5 amps one for each driver pair I can at least play just the Tapped horns / Mid bass / Mid / Upper mid / Tweeters independently and as loud as I like and for my system and room it is really just the tapped horns that do it. Playing the mid bass alone much louder than I would normally in full music there's not an audible issue, The peak at 140Hz is interesting only on the LH channel (the RH channel being generally flatter). The other higher frequency horns again no big issues at the vols I use.
Not sure I would want ANTI*MODE*8033 at mid bass frequencies as there's more info to loose / mess up but it will be easy to plug in and see if it helps on the lower freq range or messes with things too much.

This tool is fun to play around with
http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm

20Hz has a ~17m wavelength.

One peak I have is at ~37Hz which is ~9m (interestingly that's twice the width of my room (4.5m), length of my room is 5.5m with slightly vaulted ceiling. I just have a large rug centrally and a fair bit of wall and glass to bounce off.
The other peak in those measurement is at 90Hz - I have cleaned that one up a bit using a Linkwitz Riley crossover instead of the Bessel as was used when I last measured. It sounds better to me.
90Hz is ~3.8m is also about the distance between my tapped horns?!

I'm not sound wave knowledgeable but I suspect these things could be stacking up somehow.

I must do that free air measurement sometime as I believe it will help me understand how effective / good Tapped horns really are and how crappy normal rooms we have to play them in are.

I'll have to blag the measuring equip again... or buy.

Anyway lets see if ANTI*MODE*8033 can tame the 37Hz one and get nearer the simulation / what I suspect a free air measurement would give.

Ah I knew I had more measurements -
This one shows some of the crossover type issue and poss room mode but the same 35/37Hz issue.
LH one
http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/45345/2499493700071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2499493700071997495QbpboB)
RH one
http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/48082/2930856470071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2930856470071997495QrBSYz)

Yes indeed, diagonals do it too, creating a whole set of resonances. As for a specific level of required cut, I couldn't say.

MartinT

12-01-2012, 14:33

I'll have to blag the measuring equip again... or buy.

I use the following:

- Radio Shack digital sound level meter (http://www.play.com/Electronics/Electronics/4-/9923813/Radioshack-Sound-Level-Meter-Digital-Display/Product.html?_%24ja=tsid:11518%7Ccat:9923813%7Cprd :9923813)
- Sheffield Lab test CD (http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-A2TB-Test-Disc-My/dp/B000V93NKY)
- Microsoft Excel (set for log frequency horizontal axis)

The third octave pink noise test tones are great for in-room measurement and preferable to using single tones as they more closely represent real music.

Magna Audio

12-01-2012, 14:40

Interesting.
I have used RTA and more recently HOLMImpulse (free), which is great.
http://www.holmacoustics.com/holmimpulse.php

Just need the mic and mic power / sound box really.

I use the following:

- Radio Shack digital sound level meter (http://www.play.com/Electronics/Electronics/4-/9923813/Radioshack-Sound-Level-Meter-Digital-Display/Product.html?_%24ja=tsid:11518%7Ccat:9923813%7Cprd :9923813)
- Sheffield Lab test CD (http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-A2TB-Test-Disc-My/dp/B000V93NKY)
- Microsoft Excel (set for log frequency horizontal axis)

The third octave pink noise test tones are great for in-room measurement and preferable to using single tones as they more closely represent real music.

MartinT

12-01-2012, 14:44

Looks very nice, Steve, but the mic is rather expensive.

Magna Audio

12-01-2012, 14:57

Yeah, if you get a more generic mic / separate phantom power supply inc USB microphone preamp your laptop output goes through, it's about £90 all up.
I've bought the necessary;)

Looks very nice, Steve, but the mic is rather expensive.

Magna Audio

13-01-2012, 19:21

Well the Anti mode 8033's arrived as promised. BKelec were very efficient to deal with.

Nicely made by the Finns it turns out.
http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/49721/2619138260071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2619138260071997495rnKdVJ)

Round the back

http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/50165/2284100760071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2284100760071997495DLdyhH)

Installation, a breeze - only 3 calbes per channel and they supply what looks to be a nice enough gold plated plug phono cable so it is plug and play.
Calibration, a breeze - with the supplied mic in, for each channel you simply hold down the two buttons and it starts off at very low freqs and sweeps up quite slowly. It does some auto adjusting of vols along the way, repeats this 4 times and it's done. Stored in non-volatile memory.

Cos it tops the peaks off they say you find you may want to increase the vol level 3-10dB on the amp.

First I played it flat and found some of the earth moving resonances I like were a bit quieter... (I am a confessed basshead).

I cranked it up a bit on the Tapped horns amp vol control. Hmm interesting. Some places that didn't have quite so much bass before no have some - that's good.
Then I tried and lift functions. This lifts 15Hz to 25Hz by 7dB at 20Hz.
Of yeah I'm lovin' this!

Not surprisingly the whole presentation is a bit cleaner and more rhythmic. Some of what I recognise now as untamed booms are gone so other things perhaps previously masked have come through.
The deep bass is still there but as I assume / can hear the places where I had room suck out have gone (by how much I don't know yet) and are now playing through.
I can't measure it yet as the preamp / ghost power for the mic I've bought has not arrived.

So the overall effect is quite an eye or ear opener... things seem to have nice pace. Yello's excellent Touch album is even more balanced and dynamic / startling & there's more texture to some of it, presumably as it's not masked by boom.

I had been going to try DSP but was not keen on total signal. I did look at this product or one very similar about 6 months ago but got pulled in another direction - multi amps / tweeters, tonearms etc...
Def a good thing to have with the tapped horns in an average sized listening room or where they have to go against the side walls.

I have a bit more playing around to do. I could calibrate without the crossover in as that might be favourable.

Thanks to Mark for reminding me / giving me a push to do something about it.

Fun bassy weekend coming up

Reid Malenfant

13-01-2012, 19:33

Hi Steve, I thought you might like it :eyebrows:

Yes, calibrate with no crossover so the unit can then work it's magic to a higher frequency. On the mono version that is 150Hz, I think the 8033S that you have it may well be to 250Hz (though that could just be the low pass filter :scratch:).

I run mine post crossover so it calibrates to 150Hz anyway, even though the bass speakers are being fed only to 110Hz (100Hz was wrong - the new speakers will be 100Hz).

I'm sure you'll find that you'll hear individual bass tones much more easily with the nasties out of the way, I know I can :)

Have a pleasant weekend :D

Reid Malenfant

13-01-2012, 19:52

Another thing I should add that I don't think is mentioned anywhere in the instructions :scratch: The unit starts it's calibration at 16Hz & from what I can gather it uses the output at this frequency as the reference point. It then listens to everything including room reverberation, you may have noticed that the test tones were not continuous but kind of pulsed on & off - clever!

Anything above the 16Hz reference appears to be chopped down to get as close as possible to the 16Hz level volume wise. I know your tapped horns aren't small & they are probably capable of good extension into the depths, but it might be worth running something like a function generator (or similar) after calibration to make sure you have the tapped horns fully integrated with the next speakers up.

You may find that you need to turn them up a bit more than you initially thought. At first I didn't think I needed to alter a thing, but the function generator proved otherwise when I swang it above & below the crossover point a few times with a sine wave ;)

Magna Audio

14-01-2012, 21:32

More serious listening today has revealed that I prefer flat (no 15-25Hz lift) on normal music - just hangs together better.

I did try calibrating with out the crossover in place and took some measurements using the Anti-mode mic and whilst they seem show performance as expected below 150Hz.
The uncorrected measurements are almost identical to those I posted above and the corrected ones are amazingly flat.
Readings above that are not what you'd expect so perhaps cannot really be trusted. My pukka mic has arrived but not so the pre/phantom power and lead, so I cannot do accurate meas until they do.
For impressive power on Bach the 15-25Hz lift is very interesting. Still pretty flat but lifting just those frequencies above a but gives an even more impressive power to low notes.

I looked up a bass guitar's lowest not = 41.2 Hz. even the 5 string bass only gets to around 31Hz so the organ and synth have it...

I ordered up the CD Martin T played when here (The Ruffatti Organ in Davies Symphony Hall) - be interesting to compare how that sounds with / without.

MartinT

14-01-2012, 23:39

I ordered up the CD Martin T played when here (The Ruffatti Organ in Davies Symphony Hall) - be interesting to compare how that sounds with / without.

I'll be very interested in how that works out, Steve.

Magna Audio

18-01-2012, 20:37

Well - here is some beef about Anti-mode 8033C on my system.

Without any correction - all 5 horns playing with Behringer mic at ear / listening position.

http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/49204/2283678640071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2283678640071997495MDXRAf)

With correction

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/23191/2635944630071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2635944630071997495fgndNx)

Overlaid

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/48109/2945786240071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2945786240071997495nnJkRj)

As you can see the 8033 does a nice job of knocking out the anti mode - sub horn / room resonance.

You can hear some sub bass stuff really setting that peak off and with the anti-mode on it just plays nice clean deep bass.

I do still have the rise from the mid bass horn still that is room (below 200Hz is room Mr Coco says). Perhaps playing with X/O will move that or ease it - TBC.

Tweeter is a bit on heat but it is so lovely and smooth and I can't hear much about 15K these days it does not matter.

I can't really notice that as it not much about +/-5 dB (acceptable in room really) - be interesting to measure this again at Scalford.

Also I got the flattest nicest line on the tapped horn with the correction being done with the crossovers in place.
I repeated a few times correcting with no crossover and assuming the DSP would do its thing upto 150Hz and then X/O would pull that down. But that is not quite how it worked - well not as flat anyway...

I will do the RH channel tomorrow and see how that compares as it annoys the family a fair bit with loud DSP sub tests from 10Hz to 150Hz done often - those freqs do travel.

I am marking up these gain settings on the amps too - pretty much as I had them set by ear actually. Tiny bit less mid bass, Coco will feel vindicated as that is his bent when he comes to listen and set up by ear! - I am a bit of a bass head, I know. All the other drivers the same.

Now playing a Bach Sonates pour viole de gambe - Tom (Monty) would be most at home

bobbasrah

18-01-2012, 20:52

Wow!!! That is a pretty dramatic cut in the mode frequencies Steve. Very impressive indeed, excellent post.
I have some reading up and research to do now it seems....
Cheers, and good luck...

Magna Audio

19-01-2012, 10:29

Yes it certainly does fix them - There was a particular track on Bozz Scaggs Dig album - Track 6. It is a 5 string bass playing it's lowest B I think it is (31Hz). Without correction and at volume it was pressurising the room and whilst a neat trick to whack your ear drums it was not very hifi...
Now it just sounds like a deep rich sub bass guitar note.

I looked at my system and realised I did those measurements with no crossover.
Bugger - The DSP is pulling the tapped horn flat'ish upto it's 150Hz limit, but with no crossover it won't be decaying (12dB / Octave) as nicely as it should and is overlapping with the mid bass - hence, I think / hope, that is what the bulge at 140Hz we see is. Both tapped and Mid bass playing over each other and amplifying that area. I will connect up properly tonight and measure again...

I also need to time align using Holmimpulse, more an issue for MF/HF.

Marco

19-01-2012, 10:36

What's happening to all your pics, Steve? :scratch:

Marco.

Magna Audio

19-01-2012, 11:04

Ooh - dunno just saw that - Webshots down perhaps...

Yup

"We're working on the site right now, but it will be back up before you know it. We promise that all of your photos and videos will be safe during this time, and we apologize for any inconvience this may cause you.

While you wait, you can check out the Webshots blog for interesting articles, site updates and more."

Strange it's only the recent pics it seems?!

What's happening to all your pics, Steve? :scratch:

Marco.

Marco

19-01-2012, 12:49

Ah I see... You wanna use something decent, mate, like Imageshack or Photobucket ;)

Marco.

Magna Audio

19-01-2012, 13:50

Tried bucket when it was new - I found it rubbish - true to their word pics were back up pretty quickly. I've never seen that before on Webshots...

Ah I see... You wanna use something decent, mate, like Imageshack or Photobucket ;)

Marco.

Marco

19-01-2012, 14:39

Never used Bucket, but I've never had any such issues with Imageshack.

Btw, the pics are still for me showing as temporarily unavailable....

Marco.

MartinT

19-01-2012, 14:52

Click F5 to refresh your page, Marco. The images are back.

Marco

19-01-2012, 15:00

Ah, right... Cheers, Martin, for some reason the page wasn't refreshing automatically on every new visit. It was only when I pressed F5 that it did...

Did you have to press F5 for the page to refresh? :)

Maybe it's an AOL thing....

Marco.

MartinT

19-01-2012, 15:43

Did you have to press F5 for the page to refresh? :)

Yes, because my Internet Explorer was still in the same session (and therefore the old page was cached).

Marco

19-01-2012, 15:46

H'okay dokes... :)

Marco.

Magna Audio

19-01-2012, 18:40

Found I had the tweeter out of phase.

Plus a bit of moving the tapped horn forward gave this

http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/48413/2126999000071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2126999000071997495NwdhnA)

bout as good as it's going to get. +/-5dB in room with mic at ear listening position is a good result.

Now on to the RH side.

bobbasrah

20-01-2012, 07:39

A subtle change in the 25 through 100Hz zones on the graph, but flatter from 100 up due to correction, x-over, repositioning, or all three?
The 10kHz dip has gone too, but was that due to phasing?
Would the baseline response be largely unchanged?

With that lineup not so much the average domestic installation (the height of understatement), the room modes are clearly suppressed which should give stunning bass response. Is there no room treatment by way of diffraction or absorption, other than you, the solitary chair and tea-trolley?

Truly a stunning array to begin with, but this is dedication. I guess that organ music will be the first test piece to test plaster adhesion.... Impressive...

Magna Audio

20-01-2012, 11:01

No room treatment at all - and this was with the curtains and french window curtains open too.
I have hard floor but large shag-pile rug in centre of room, 2 seat leather sofa and a Swedish sheep skin armchair and stool, usual CD / record racks and pics on the walls and that is it.
I have put some acoustic foam under the upper mid horn to reduce tweeter refraction and some on the top top side of the mid bass horn as well. Its just popped in place - nothing permanent. i must measure again without it see.
The ceiling is slightly vaulted - perhaps that helps a but.

I must look again at the early plots before I had rounded the mouths and see if they were as smooth - not sure that you could see that but the theory is the wave form propagates out of the mouths smoother and into the room. I read up on it before doing it.

Next up could a DIY tractrix or Le Cleac'h profile for the little horn to see what that does. Le Cleac'h profiles on the bigger horns really are toooo big to fit in my modest room.

It will be interesting to measure / correct and measure again at Scalford too.

Next fun here is that I have calibrated the Mic with a generic cal file - It will probably be a bit better but the Behringer mic seems to be accepted as ok for home use but not the last word for accurate about 10K plots - I might send it off for cal sometime if I can get a .cal file back as well or instead of paper plot...

A subtle change in the 25 through 100Hz zones on the graph, but flatter from 100 up due to correction, x-over, repositioning, or all three?
The 10kHz dip has gone too, but was that due to phasing?
Would the baseline response be largely unchanged?

With that lineup not so much the average domestic installation (the height of understatement), the room modes are clearly suppressed which should give stunning bass response. Is there no room treatment by way of diffraction or absorption, other than you, the solitary chair and tea-trolley?

Truly a stunning array to begin with, but this is dedication. I guess that organ music will be the first test piece to test plaster adhesion.... Impressive...

Magna Audio

20-01-2012, 11:33

Right - This is an old one done back in October - before the horn mouth work / correction. Measuring equip is the same. Crossovers the same. Horn stands were old lash ups - have to check to see if I had foam on or not - yes I did. I was playing around with around then... a quick re-measure with / without will tell. The tweeter was a cheapie Eminence and once a bit off axis they fall away horribly and it never really tweeted that much. Was with 5 amps too.

http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/45877/2982439090071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2982439090071997495KTETWW)

no

MartinT

20-01-2012, 12:00

That's a very flat in-room response you're getting there, Steve. I hope it is still giving you the speed and immediacy of sound that you were getting; in other words you could get lost in pursuit of the flattest frequency response possible but muck up the phasing and such resulting in a horrible sound. Are you keeping your ears tuned to how it sounds? :)

Marco

20-01-2012, 12:04

Exactly. Forget yer plots and graphs, it's ultimately when your ears tell you it sounds best that matters most!! ;)

Marco.

bobbasrah

20-01-2012, 12:15

Exactly. Forget yer plots and graphs, it's ultimately when your ears tell you it sounds best that matters most!! ;)

Marco.

Strange, :eek: I thought the purpose of the tools, plots and graphs were to assess why it didn't sound at it's best. :scratch:

Magna Audio

20-01-2012, 12:19

Oh yes, ears are the real proof. I can hear the changes I've made - from mouth termination to correction etc etc and I like them.

If it measures well - and sounds bad - start again!

For fun a while back I measured my garage speakers - Mission 700's.

They measure very well / flat from about 60Hz to 20K but they sound like small boxy, not very dynamic boxes in comparison to the horns so you would not want to buy on measured spec alone...

Marco

20-01-2012, 12:22

Smart chap... Pay no attention to Serge Auckland! ;)

Marco.

MartinT

20-01-2012, 13:12

Strange, :eek: I thought the purpose of the tools, plots and graphs were to assess why it didn't sound at it's best. :scratch:

No, they just guide you. The ultimate arbiter is your ears.

Marco

20-01-2012, 13:40

The ultimate arbiter is your ears.

I've often thought about having people's foreheads stamped with that in indelible ink when they join AoS! :eyebrows:

Marco.

bobbasrah

20-01-2012, 13:44

No, they just guide you. The ultimate arbiter is your ears.

Agreed totally Martin.
As a tool to quantify the effects however, I find it strange that the method of tuning is so easily dismissed before the job is complete, when it so patently informing the "mechanic" to such good effect.:scratch:
I wouldn't dream of tuning my modern car engine with the screwdriver as I used to do, when the Lexia is there to make it easier.:cool:

Magna Audio

20-01-2012, 13:48

I have not heard his system so can't personally comment.
It will be at Scalford so perhaps then? There is plenty opportunity for a perfect flat line with Berhringer DEQ / DCX in there so it could be well 'corrected'.

Smart chap... Pay no attention to Serge Auckland! ;)

Marco.

Marco

20-01-2012, 13:56

I've not heard his system at home, but if what he brought to Scalford Hall last year was in any way an accurate representation of it, sonically, then God forbid! :rolleyes:

Yes, the music was indeed "well corrected" - completely to non-existence......

Marco.

Welder

20-01-2012, 14:14

I trusted my ears once. ;)

She said, "fuck me" but i got the intonation wrong and my face slapped.:D

What she actually meant was "Fuck Me!"

Sry, lowering the tone again :doh:

Magna Audio

20-01-2012, 15:57

Lucky to get off lightly:)

Here is a measurement with the mic / my new pre calibrated to a generic ECN8000 cal file.

http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/47876/2800611220071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2800611220071997495WAMMIv)

Here is one - Green = acoustic damping between horn in place, Red without it.
http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/49098/2732613010071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2732613010071997495LNUcTy)
I tried to change nothing - only the foam removed, ok I put the foam on a chair off away from the measurement axis. Move the mic a little or fart and the measurement will be a little difference

As for generic cal vs none - not a big difference but there is a difference - I can't figure out how to overlay / retrieve and old measure so can't overlay them - yet.

Now for some Time alignment by HolmImpulse

Ali Tait

20-01-2012, 20:00

I trusted my ears once. ;)

She said, "fuck me" but i got the intonation wrong and my face slapped.:D

What she actually meant was "Fuck Me!"

Sry, lowering the tone again :doh:

:lol:

Welder

20-01-2012, 20:39

Annoying how wishful thinking and expectation can do that to your hearing isn't it ;)

Ali Tait

20-01-2012, 20:41

Haha indeed!

Magna Audio

21-01-2012, 15:47

I've been using my new mic and phantom power/pre to do time aligning - lots of learning about Holmresp to do this was needed.

I have now done all 8 (4 each side). Got the hang of it more and more and understanding it.

I doubt / hope I will not need to do it again at Scalford. I have marked each driver to frame clamp up for reference so it should be just align the marks and clamp.
Can easily do just the HF end to show you though / check it.

True the listening spot(s) will change in length but you'd be talking such small time delays - not worth bothering about.
Doing takes about 2 hrs but would be quicker next time / with helpers to move the drivers back and forth.

So how does it sound now. Having loosely time aligned by measuring to approx diaphragm and then tried to listen to pink noise / white noise and not really getting very far (might be ok if you can electronically delay and listen from the chair as you do it), no good getting up moving a driver and sitting down again...

Well, it is crystallised the timing and coherence beyond what it was before. Useful gain again.
All the peak wave fronts line up so for example when a snare drum is hit all the drivers making that sound (as they overlap) are making that sound at the same time distance from my ear. Sound from all the drivers arrives at the same time to me ear and there is little (no) out of alignment / cancellation of the wave. That's how I understand it any way.

I had lots of trial and error in making the measurements & learning the tool but did not try to listen to anything until all were as good as I could get.
I think I had well and truly lost the approx by ear settings anyway.

My ears are telling me this was VERY worth while indeed.

I am still a fraction away form getting the mid and mid bass perfect on the LH side. I need to modify my stand to allow the mid bass horn to be even further forward at little. TBH as it's 0.3 ms I doubt I'd hear it, and it is not the HF stuff where I guess it is most critical.

I was a bit lazy in remembering to lock the first highest to zero each time but as long as both are done to the same reference (not nec. zero) should be good.

Improvements or pointers on anything I'm doing wrong welcome - I'm just learning to use these tools...

So here are the charts... All measured with mic at ear listening chair position, and they were in waveform terms quite a bit out!

LH first
Tweeter and Upper mid
http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/42479/2646411080071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2646411080071997495Hzwemk)

Upper mid and mid

http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/49604/2700270200071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2700270200071997495AhuhCG)

mid and mid bass (not quite there yet)

http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/49548/2225991920071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2225991920071997495HLSnHf)

RH side
Tweet and upper mid

http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/47336/2930902040071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2930902040071997495ifyXXR)

Upper mid and mid

http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/47093/2763588700071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2763588700071997495TRzAnq)

Mid and mid bass

http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/49888/2263391900071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2263391900071997495PCNoec)

Just going to listen and enjoy now...

Magna Audio

23-01-2012, 22:20

bobbasrah

24-01-2012, 07:27

Was that too technical or just to nerdy for you guys:)

I spent this evening modding the stand so I can get time alignment on that pesky left hand channel between mid bass and mid horns. Lots of angle grinding and mig welding - I love it!

Also made up two 'Scalford easy' tweeter mounts - Once they are all in room it will be quite fast to assemble. Famous last words...

:lol:
Appropriate tools for the job in hand, but not something your average audiophile would have in the toolkit....:mental:
Are you satisfied with regard to the frequency corrections you carried out, or is it too early to draw conclusions?
I was fascinated by the differences demonstrated by the graphs (I know....don't need charts...use your ears....:rolleyes:) and wondered just how effective it was in informing you and tuning out the modes in reality, while retaining musical listening pleasure.
Unfortunately the setup here does not lend itself to the technique you used, and I doubt WAF would be forthcoming to build an array...;)

Magna Audio

24-01-2012, 12:54

I have yet to measure the flattness of the overall frequency again after doing the accurate time aligning - I suspect it will have improved - but how visible I no not.
I wanted to time align that last mid bass unit so got called off doing more measuring for the time being.

It certainly did sound better time aligned - fun using both ears and measurements. As you say not all all systems can time align - you can check any system by restricting the frequency of the tone sent to each driver and then time locking them and comparing. I've not done it though on other speakers.
On my system I just turn the vols off on the other amps for the drivers that I am not measuring.

'Seek forgiveness rather than permission'

:lol:
Appropriate tools for the job in hand, but not something your average audiophile would have in the toolkit....:mental:
Are you satisfied with regard to the frequency corrections you carried out, or is it too early to draw conclusions?
I was fascinated by the differences demonstrated by the graphs (I know....don't need charts...use your ears....:rolleyes:) and wondered just how effective it was in informing you and tuning out the modes in reality, while retaining musical listening pleasure.
Unfortunately the setup here does not lend itself to the technique you used, and I doubt WAF would be forthcoming to build an array...;)

bobbasrah

24-01-2012, 13:08

In your situation such frequency correction and alignment is a viable proposal, but not something that could be undertaken with your average speaker.
Sorry Steve, I was referring in that last post to your frequency corrections. I was more curious whether the frequency corrections proved beneficial. Graphically it was a quite dramatic change, but what was your impression on the comparative sound?
Did the correction only tame the bottom end or did it alter perceptions over the midrange also?

Magna Audio

24-01-2012, 16:37

aha I see - It really on affected the bottom end.
As can be seen it really levelled things off.
I could not hear any diff to mid, upper mid and tweeter frequencies really.
Time alignment - that's where I heard those improve.

I will take a plot now of things as they stand - horn mount improvements, time alignment and acoustic damping & tapped horn EQ and do another with the EQ off. Then we are comparing like with like across the whole rev range.

In your situation such frequency correction and alignment is a viable proposal, but not something that could be undertaken with your average speaker.
Sorry Steve, I was referring in that last post to your frequency corrections. I was more curious whether the frequency corrections proved beneficial. Graphically it was a quite dramatic change, but what was your impression on the comparative sound?
Did the correction only tame the bottom end or did it alter perceptions over the midrange also?

Reid Malenfant

24-01-2012, 16:45

Steve, I'm assuming you are feeding the left & right tapped horns in mono? As I'm sure you bought the 8033S I guess you have it summing both channels & you're then feeding both tapped horns the same signal...

As my room isn't quite the same shape from left to right due to a chimney I thought it might be a better idea to use two, one for each channel. Ok, so it was more expensive, but I seem to recall I had significant money off vouchers from ebay on electrical items at the time :D It did help :eyebrows:

Magna Audio

24-01-2012, 18:44

aha that's better - I can relax now. Stands modified and in place.

Even the mid bass horn is confirmed as time aligned

http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/42627/2448497940071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2448497940071997495XPPAhg)

R.H. too.

http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/48987/2848387620071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2848387620071997495RtGhpZ)

Love it when a plan comes together...

Here's the stand mod

http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/28518/2526015080071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2526015080071997495KQtAfK)

wider (to accommodate the entire wide of the mid bass back chamber so it just passes right underneath.

http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/47591/2921740950071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2921740950071997495VxrXxH)

How it looks side on time aligned according to HOLMUpulse and my ears are confirming...

http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/49437/2186425490071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2186425490071997495WmdkcF)

The keen eyed among you will notice the driver clamps so no movement and the rear locks that are marked up for re-alignment after dismantle / reassemble . The Lazy ribbons now clamp to the back bone of the stand and have a moveable foot clamped on for height ref that I can change should I want to raise the drivers to give more distance and air to them (Scalford?)

Next up make alignment lock offs for the mid bass before anyone touches them!

I do have a wife and kids

Welder

24-01-2012, 19:03

Very tolerant wife and kids I would say. Either that or you're a wee tyrant :eyebrows:
Even my dog wouldn't wear that lot!:eek:

It all looks very impressive Steve. Not something I would want personally but I'll have your garage no problem.......yeah and the mig kit....and if you've got a spare milling machine I'll take that as well.:D

Marco

24-01-2012, 19:50

Very tolerant wife and kids I would say.

Having met the delightful Marie, I can confirm that he does indeed have a tolerant wife :)

Steve also has a dedicated listening room, for his system, which is separate from the main lounge. Dontcha know, daftee, all the bestest people have one (and a tolerant wife)! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Welder

24-01-2012, 20:10

Having met the delightful Marie, I can confirm that he does indeed have a tolerant wife :)

Steve also has a dedicated listening room, for his system, which is separate from the main lounge. Dontcha know, daftee, all the bestest people have one (and a tolerant wife)! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Oh arr.

Cant help but admire the dedication, and the workmanship looks none too shoddy.
Just jealous coz he's got obviously got somewhere to do this stuff. ;)

Magna Audio

25-01-2012, 15:51

They are not really high aesthetic woodwork craftsmanship (focus was on acoustic craftsmanship if that makes sense) or finished yet.
Prob never will be as I viewed this entire project from first single conical horn to 5 way as, build it up at each stage, see if it works, listen/measure and refine. They are prototypes really.

Once I've made some Tractrix and perhaps a Le Cleac'h profile for the smaller horns I may actually finish the plywood that's left

They will be in this form at Scalford unless I suddenly have an attack of energy and spray finish the whole lot - I can't see that happening really.
I could easily finish the visible (from the front) parts though - perhaps that would be a good idea.

Every horn enthusiast need a dedicated room...

Oh arr.

Cant help but admire the dedication, and the workmanship looks none too shoddy.
Just jealous coz he's got obviously got somewhere to do this stuff. ;)

Magna Audio

10-08-2013, 20:50

I finally got around to finishing the bass horns, spray painting the insides the same as the others - Ivory silk satin finish and the backs matt white.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2058/WP_20130807_009.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2058/WP_20130807_009.jpg.html)

Need to use a the proper camera next time, but you get the idea.

I just need to cut down the stands so the top hanger is below the top horn sight line and perhaps paint it a blend in colour too.

Had a couple of hifi enthusiast's over recently. Nice playing some tunes to them.

Magna Audio

19-10-2013, 21:30

I've long thought about trying the horns in a different room config.
The room is longer than wider by some 1.5m, and due to the doors and window siting I have felt that sitting longways and with the French windows opposite me and behind the horns was best. I still think that. I did very early on try it the other way around but it was all wrong with no view out and poor access.

So, what else to try. Well I've had the horns at max distance away from me, but inside the tapped horns that are in the corners.

Today I moved the horns horn stack to infront of the tapped horns.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page61/IMG_4255.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page61/IMG_4255.jpg.html)

Hmm, I like it. It's widened the soundstage and given more definition to the positioning of vocals especially. Also some of the instrument positioning and mixes have become more interesting and oriented - if that makes sense.

I can always play a bit more and move them in a bit but at the moment I am liking the widening. It is not as if it is too wide or has disconnected left from right at all.

I do have some time alignment issues but nothing the mic and Hornresp can't fix:)

Magna Audio

12-01-2014, 18:19

DIY made 550Hz tractrix horns for my Vitavox S2's

The next twist in the tale.

I've set about making a pair of 550 or so Hz tractrix horns for my Vitavox S2's.

A bit of modelling in Hornresp to give the dimensions and also comparing with the ~600Hz Cube Audio GRP ones I currently run.
I've decided to use birch ply as I have lots of it and it's nice to work with.
6 rings of 24mm birch ply will do it. I cut these out today and they are gluing clamped up overnight.

The next thing was to make decent throat adapters. I lashed up some interference fit birch ply ones for the Cube Audio horns but want to do it right for these.
This means cutting in internal 2.620" diameter thread. 16 Threads Per Inch pitch, Whitworth (55 degree and correct radius etc).
There was a pair of these mounting rings in aluminium on ebay for £125 ouch! - and where would be the fun in just buying them...

I won't bore you with the need for an imperial lead screw / correct change gears on the lathe to cut the perfect thread, or the test cuts I made.

I am using my Super Mini Lathe as the correct change gears for 16TPI are not readily available for my bigger South Bend 9A lathe.

For this I decided to try some composite PVC sheet as the material - Cheap, strong, easy to cut and drill etc.
Here's a sized piece

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_009.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_009.jpg.html)

As I don't have a 4 jaw chuck (yet) for my Super Mini Lathe I used the mounting plate (the old fashioned way), with a ply spacer which can be 'cut' into so the cutting tool can cut all the way in and not hit the mounting plate.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_010.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_010.jpg.html)

6 screws for good location

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_011.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_011.jpg.html)

Mounted up on the lathe ready for making round

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_012.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_012.jpg.html)

Rounded and inner hole cut

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_014.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_014.jpg.html)

Getting the ID sizing right using the internal cutting tool

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_001.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_001.jpg.html)

The cutting tool is then run forward at slow rpm cutting the thread. About 6-8 cuts are needed depending on material. Keeping the saddle 1/2 nuts engaged and using the neat reverse feature of the mini lathe's DC motor thread, cutting is easy.

Checking that the S2 actually fits

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_003.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_003.jpg.html)

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_004.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_004.jpg.html)

Here is the mounting ring screwed on flush (this will be countersunk and screwed onto the horn throat flange)

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_008-1.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140110_008-1.jpg.html)

I am very pleased how easily and precisely the thread matches / fits.
This is the first one - the next one will be even better. As you can see there is some tearing of the material at the very start - I made a too fast / too deep cut. The rest of the thread is nice though as I backed off.

As the horns will be small and pretty light these mounts will be plenty strong enough.

Next up the horns themselves - for this I have to use the bigger 9" swing vintage South Bend 9A lathe... TBC.

Magna Audio

12-01-2014, 20:22

Outer half mounted up and roughed out with cutting tool using compound rest

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140111_002.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140111_002.jpg.html)

Ready for smoothing

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140111_001.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140111_001.jpg.html)
I've left the option of a Le Cleach style rounded mouth - I have the room for it in the horn stack - Can always pare it down later I suppose.

A late afternoon / evening soirée curtailed further progress...
One participant wondered if a 3D printer could print such a horn?
I wonder what it would cost to print a pair. There are firms who will print what you design - I think you have to buy a printer head as well as they are consumables... Interesting one.

Magna Audio

12-01-2014, 20:56

Rough smoothed

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140111_003.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140111_003.jpg.html)

Then on to the back

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140112_001.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140112_001.jpg.html)

About ready

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140112_002.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140112_002.jpg.html)

Next is to make the 1st section and fit them together...

Magna Audio

13-01-2014, 13:20

This mornings progress:

Turning the small 1st section to fit the larger one.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140113_001.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140113_001.jpg.html)

The big bit to the left is the mounting disc then the horn starts which is turned to the same diameter as the screw on throat adapters I made.

Next up is turning the inside

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140113_002.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2062/WP_20140113_002.jpg.html)

A Cateye LED bike lamp shines nice light in so I can see what I am doing.

The centre is 1st hole cut to 38mm and then flared ala Tractrix from there. Final adjustments to 38.1mm / 1.5" for the Vitavox throat will have to be made no doubt...

Plenty left to do...

Magna Audio

13-01-2014, 13:21

Magna Audio

14-01-2014, 23:00

1st horn joined and nearing completion

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_003.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_003.jpg.html)

Roughly sprayed up to match existing horn stack

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_004.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_004.jpg.html)

S2 screw on adapter in place

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_005.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_005.jpg.html)

Not bothered finishing the backs to match yet - wanna hear the results first... Makes a nice solid unit the driver is heavy but can be picked up by the horn no problem.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_008.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_008.jpg.html)

In situ ready for test listen (felt damping pads left off for the pic)

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_009.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_009.jpg.html)

From the front

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_010.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_010.jpg.html)

Fits right in

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_011.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140114_011.jpg.html)

Listening as I type the sound is perfect - no problems integrating (I did not expect any TBH).
Obviously I'm listening RH channel upper mid horn I've just made vs Cube Audio GRP one. Can't tell any difference so far.
A pair might tell me more - Will be making the 2nd one tomorrow:)

walpurgis

14-01-2014, 23:29

Busy guy. Looks like you're having fun. Hope it sounds as good as it's looking!

Macca

15-01-2014, 00:00

Busy guy. Looks like you're having fun. Hope it sounds as good as it's looking!

If you heard these things at Scalford 2012 as I did you would not be asking. They are good beyond belief. Absolute no compromise speaker system IMO.

MartinT

15-01-2014, 06:50

They certainly do have that 'so vivid they scare you' ability that only horns can deliver.

Magna Audio

15-01-2014, 23:53

They have changed quite a bit since Scalford, tractrix and exponential on mid bass. The X/O's are now DSP line level and that gives all 5 way driver time alignment and room correction on sub bass tapped horns / mid bass. Also get to choose the best sounding slopes. Steeper for bass and shallower for higher frequencies that really lets the quality drivers exhibit to the full.
Another change was Vitavox S2's in the upper mid frequency band.

Still got the horn vivid and dynamics that Martin noted, but in a more complete, 'easy to get along for all genres', package.

I am now about 1/2 way through the 2nd tractrix upper mid horn. The drive belt on my trusty old South Bend let go so that stopped play for a while. I took the opportunity to re-design the belt / mandrel / belt tensioning system and keep a spare stretch of drive belt in stock so up and running again.

Should have a pair to listen to tomorrow evening.

Magna Audio

16-01-2014, 23:09

2nd one in and working. Sounding fine. The clean effortless perfection coming out the Vitavox S2's never fails to amaze.
Yet integration and progression is spot on too.

Only primed up at the moment. The screw on fittings mean I can whip the horns off / on with the drivers left in place

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140116_003.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/WP_20140116_003.jpg.html)

More finishing work tomorrow.

Magna Audio

20-01-2014, 14:17

Had a really good loud listening session on Saturday morning.

Bonzo of the Wigwam community was over for a listen.
He's been getting around, listening to Avantgarde, Martin Logan, Cessaro, Tune Audio to name a few...

The DIY tractrix are performing very well indeed.
Nice to have another of the horns in the system all made by me. Only the bigger tractrix 200Hz horns that I have bought from Autotech left.
One day I might try a pair of those in GRP.

Magna Audio

21-01-2014, 20:56

Here is what Bonzo wrote

"Thanks very much for the session. I have heard 2 way Cessaro's and 2 and 3 way Avantgarde's, also Tune Audio Animas, so it was awesome to compare them to a 5-way horn system which was DIY. Steve ran me through what each driver meant and what specific frequency he covered. I had never heard a church organ in an hifi before, but Steve's tapped horns go down so low that it feels you are listening to new notes in classical, one that you would not know existed.

The power amps and the room correction box are cool too. Normally I don't like room correction, but in Steve's system you don't notice it. Also I am a non-vinyl guy so far, but something in Steve's TT had me sitting up. Steve also knows the ins and outs of the physics of sound, so it is generally fun talking to him, and seeing a DIY set up without room treatments that sounds great. Each of his horn has a different driver. I guess most people into DIY and horns on this forum know Steve, but for others I would strongly recommend you visit Steve, Purite Audio, BD Audio to see the differences in horns and how they compare to normal box speakers - suggesting this as someone new to hifi I had the wrong perceptions about horns before, which I think are shared by quite a few, so best thing to do is go out there and listen to some horns"

To be clear - I only use a few PEQ fixes for the tapped horns and mid bass room modes - nothing elsewhere.

Reffc

23-01-2014, 07:32

Nice work Steve. Do you have any changes in output or with the new horns which may affect the crossover? (I suspect not as they're pretty identical to the GRP versions?)

Magna Audio

23-01-2014, 12:38

I've not felt the need to test anything new yet. I still the use the 3uF cap as per Romy's S2 survival guide and it works very well.

Nice work Steve. Do you have any changes in output or with the new horns which may affect the crossover? (I suspect not as they're pretty identical to the GRP versions?)

Here's a side shot - Bit more work to tidy up the backbox on the mid bass and perhaps a nicer looking mid horn holder arrangement - still lots to do

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/9b85b0d6-091f-4ca2-94c1-e3282e3c6235.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/Page%2063/9b85b0d6-091f-4ca2-94c1-e3282e3c6235.jpg.html)

Magna Audio

31-01-2014, 16:14

Ratcatcher (Graham of the wam) was over this morning for a listen and chat about horn systems.

He too has become a bit disillusioned by box speakers - no matter how much they cost and is thinking of DIY horns - much more fulfilling IMHE of course than buying something - even 2/3 horn systems at bonkers money for what they are acoustically, which inevitably come with bass slowness / integration problems and some of which reportedly have clarity issues in mid and upper mid channels too?!

I'll let Graham fill you in on what he thought.

We played lots of different types of music. The only thing I want to explore further is getting a more pumping sound to the rock music I like.
I have no problems with the speed, integration and depth of my mid bass and sub bass whatsoever. What I want is more air pressure movement:)

For my next addition I think I want a rock system addition. I am thinking an array of 12" or 15" drivers perhaps 6 each side to give me some more pump!

That is the only thing I am considering at the moment.

When the Najda 5th channel expansion board comes out I will give it a go. Have to research into the best boom box experience and exactly what frequencies I want to restrict it to. Perhaps 50 - 200Hz (4 string bass guitar zone) or perhaps even lower?, to act as injection / pressure channel and I am thinking alongside the horns of course. Integration problems? We'll see.

Research and opinions to be garnered.

Magna Audio

04-02-2014, 20:07

Having thought some more and listened to Ritchie who wondered is changes to DSP settings could create the effect I was after.

Well I hit Najda and this is fun...

I put 48dB/oct (8th order) on Tapped and mid bass. Boosted tapped horn by 2dB and mid bass by 1dB as first cut.

Then A/B listened to Nevermind - Nirvana

Like it. Tightened things up, improved speed / punch and made it suitably fake tits bass as Mr Coco would say.

Then I put a high pass on the tapped horns at 30Hz also 8th order. Tried it at 35Hz and 40Hz but went back to 30Hz as 5 string bass / synth bass will hit this.
I took 1dB off the 35Hz PEQ room correction too.

As a further test I put 8th order on everything (bar the tweeter). That kinda compressed things - in a rock sort of way. May be a bit too far have to play backing things off and on until I get it right.

This setup is beginning to kick *** now, mofo betch! its the bomb!

MartinT

04-02-2014, 21:09

LOL - sounds great, Steve. I'll have to find an excuse to come and have another listen sometime.

Magna Audio

04-02-2014, 23:35

Yes, welcome.

Magna Audio

12-03-2014, 11:09

The big rectangular exponential flare bass / mid bass horns I am making are now in my system on test for tuning before finishing.

From workshop

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140307_002.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140307_002.jpg.html)

to listening room

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_004.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_004.jpg.html)

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_005.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_005.jpg.html)

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_007.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_007.jpg.html)

I have been experimenting with driver chamber volumes too.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_001.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_001.jpg.html)

and damping too. From very damped to less.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_002.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_002.jpg.html)

These are long at 1.4m including driver chamber, being smooth exponential they modelled very well down to 80Hz and smooth beyond 500Hz.

So how do they sound;

Just fine actually. I've just put them in, aligned them and not changed anything on the DSP set up - X/O etc and am having a listen.
Deep piano is fantastic! In general there is a tad more snap/punch and weight than mine (greater compression than I have on might I expect, and the length).
Nice detail and subtlety, no problems in the room or any resonance - birch ply rules!!! Plus that curve is so strong and rigid I can't see it being an issue at domestic / even Scalford Saturday night levels...
They work just laying on the floor. I could really reduce my stack height with them quite dramatically - another 30cm or so.
That might be good for cohesion in my room, but It doesn't standout as a problem / something I need to address.

will have a play with the X/O points and slopes now and a measure. Then I will take one on the decking in the garden on table and measure in free air!

I think the change is that I have reduced the driver chamber more than I had on mine when I trialled smaller throats. I ended up going with what I knew back then with larger vol in driver chamber and bigger throat. Both model fine but there are subtle differences in the sound.

The beauty is that I can just add extra throat rings to the round exponentials to lengthen them and reduce the throat to whatever I want... Flexible!

Marco

12-03-2014, 20:18

LOL - those look like a riot, Steve! None of yer weeny-boy, spineless, WAF pish there!!! :respect:

Look forward to hearing them when I pop down to have my ebony arm-board polished :)

Marco.

walpurgis

12-03-2014, 20:48

MartinT

12-03-2014, 22:25

There's a mad Italian (or is he Greek) who built underfloor bass horns. You've got to admire his dedication.

Ah - here you go...

http://www.royaldevice.com/sala%20audio/double%20horn11.jpg

http://das.blogsport.de/images/subwoofer.jpg

http://www.royaldevice.com/sala%20audio/custom32.jpg

Barry

12-03-2014, 23:31

Nice work, you always have interesting ideas. If you decide to go any bigger, you may have to take the John Crabbe route. About forty or more years ago when he was with Hi-Fi News, he built huge concrete bass horns into the back wall of his listening room. They were enormous!

For those that are interested, the details of the Crabbe horns can be found here:

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20oct%2067%20-%201.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20oct%2067%20-%202.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20oct%2067%20-%203.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20oct%2067%20-%204.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20oct%2067%20-%205.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20nov%2067%20-%206.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20nov%2067%20-%207.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20nov%2067%20-%208.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudspeaker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20nov%2067%20-%209.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudsp'ker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20oct%2067%20-%20bass.jpg

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudsp'ker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20nov%2067%20-%20mid.jpg

and

http://www.saturn-sound.com/images%20-%20diy%20projects/diy%20-%20horn%20loudsp'ker%20mk2%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20nov%2067%20-%20cct.jpg

walpurgis

13-03-2014, 00:06

There's a mad Italian (or is he Greek) who built underfloor bass horns. You've got to admire his dedication.

Looks like a tangental or sinusoidal curve he has there.

Magna Audio

13-03-2014, 23:39

Any plans for down south then Marco?

Some of those creations must sound amazing.
I can say that a bigger mid bass horn does make a difference! So what must a truly proper deep bass one sound like?
Can only but wonder. You wouldn't want to get the design of that wrong!!

I will never build in like that as we may well move in the next 5-10years... I've got a nice enough compromise.

I forgot to include a side pic to give a better idea of length!

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_014.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/WP_20140312_014.jpg.html)

Marco

14-03-2014, 10:21

Any plans for down south then Marco?

When suits you dude, from say, Wednesday next week onwards? :)

Marco.

Magna Audio

14-03-2014, 13:49

When suits you dude, from say, Wednesday next week onwards? :)

Marco.

Thursday would be fine.
Lets firm up by PM;)

Marco

14-03-2014, 16:04

Oo-er... That sounds a bit saucy, big boy! :bum: :D

PM winging its way to you now!

Marco.

Magna Audio

21-03-2014, 16:04

Nice to see you again Marco.
A good listening session, natter and lunch laid on (thanks Marie xxx).

The extra long horns had plenty of rock for my part.
I think Marco liked Nirvana on my Rock DSP X/O setting.
Bit more mid bass punch, slightly less mid and treble dB levels and some steeper slopes here and there.

Marco

21-03-2014, 21:47

Hi Steve,

Always nice to see you, mate. And thanks to Marie for lunch. The armboard is looking Sweeeet! :eyebrows:

Nice session with the horns, as always... Yup, the Nirvana on that setting was a riot :fingers:

Marco.

Magna Audio

07-04-2014, 17:11

The 2220's arrived safe and sound!

First, here's a pic of the 2225 in situ as I was removing it.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/IMG_4696.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/IMG_4696.jpg.html)

Thanks for the loan Jack - Non Smoking Man.

Here are the JBL 2220's

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/IMG_4695.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/IMG_4695.jpg.html)

Nice nick for a veteran and presumably well used driver.
Well packed and came by surface shipping all the way from Canada - took 2 months.
Both show correct DC resistance - good.

Firstly the smaller magnet arrangement strikes you. Lower power handling 200W vs 400W for the 2225's too of course - not that we care about that in efficient horns.
Light cone, low Qts of 0.17 and JBL state "ideal for use as a horn driver".

So lets find out.

Here is one settling in

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/IMG_4697.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/IMG_4697.jpg.html)

Note the same terminal clips as on the JBL 2482 compression drivers - of the era.

Before mounting them I listened to just the bass horns with the 2225's in the system on a test track.
Then I did the same with the 2220's.

Both sound a bit weird of course compared to a full range playback, but it showed up some interesting differences.
The 2220's are more efficient by 4dB/W! Had to back the level off a bit there!

More texture to the upper bass coming from the 2220's I would say.
Lower down it's a bit more difficult to deduce big differences at this stage.

Some JBL users have commented that the 2220's do not get on so well in small throat horns - I have quite a large throat on these at the moment.
In fact only 0.5cm radius bigger than the ideal Hornresp model for the 2220's! Would I hear the difference - perhaps, but perhaps not.

So on to listening to full playback.
Yes they are efficient indeed. Blending nicely with the JBL 2482's on the upper end of things. Low end is fine too.
Transitioning Piano is nice.

So lots to listen to now and settle in with them and then a measure and optimise in DSP X/O. But they are sounding just fine so no rush.

Rare over here as they are, and for the dosh I paid I am very pleased with them.

Magna Audio

09-04-2014, 06:36

Here is the JBL 2220A modelled curve on my current short horn BTW...

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/JBL2220onshorthorn.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/JBL2220onshorthorn.jpg.html)

The most marked improvement in modelling over the Kappa and 2225 is the upper range flatness on this particular horn.

i am hearing the flatter upper frequency smoothness.

walpurgis

09-04-2014, 08:51

Magna Audio

09-04-2014, 16:04

I just love the older JBL drivers. Beautiful quality. Your L2220A units have the alnico type magnet as I'm sure you know, which is why they are smaller. Nice match for a set of the big JBL mid compression drivers and a pair of the slot radiator tweeters from the seventies. Or a couple of Altec cellular horns, but I know you use your own arrangements.

Yes they do hit the spot. Nice to have some more Lansing heritage in the system too. They seem more horn sympathetic than anything else I'd modelled.

Here's how the 2220 measured in horn using Holmimpulse.
This is at the listening position with a small negative correction at 150Hz for a room mode.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/JBL2220onshorthornplotat1m.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/JBL2220onshorthornplotat1m.jpg.html)

I'm happy with that! Plays on higher than other drivers I've tried.

Here's efficiency data modelled in Hornresp - I've not tried that before, or maybe I have looked and forgot it was there:). This is with 1.0 X Pi. 0.5 is perhaps not realistic.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/JBL2220efficiency.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/JBL2220efficiency.jpg.html)

Gotta go and listen some more now:)

Magna Audio

10-04-2014, 16:39

Today's messing about has been to check and then re-optimise the lower 2 channels of the system.
By measuring in room and setting up the crossover points Tapped to Mid bass and mid bass to mid horns to suit the JBL2220's.

I like what I am hearing.

The 2220's are offering a punch and slam that I've not heard on the short horns before and are integrating very well with the tapped horns.

I am firmly on 4th order X/O's now for the bass channels. 2nd order for the upper mid bass knee and mids. Upper mids and tweets unchanged.

I did try a little higher X/O point (400Hz) 2220's to 2482's as suggested and that's how I've left it for evaluation.

Switching to the old setup shows its short comings.

Magna Audio

02-05-2014, 06:42

I'll be testing some softwood (redwood pine) turned Tractrix 550Hz cutoff horns on the Vitavox S2's soon.
Be interesting to compare how they sound against my birch ply ones...
Romy has always said use as soft a wood as possible. Balsa would be too soft to even work - so went with pine.

Here's some pics of the turning.

1st section

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/WP_20140416_002.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/WP_20140416_002.jpg.html)

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/IMG_4722.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Ritchie%20mid%20bass/IMG_4722.jpg.html)

2nd section

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/WP_20140424_001.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/WP_20140424_001.jpg.html)

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/WP_20140417_002.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/WP_20140417_002.jpg.html)

Aligning to the template

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/WP_20140423_001.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Conical%20horn%20project/Horn%20thread%20on%20Wam/page%2068/WP_20140423_001.jpg.html)

I've got more pics on the big camera - must get around to uploading them. Windows phone and One drive auto upload is soooo convenient.