Help. Intermittant loss of sound on file based system.

[brian2957]

Hi guys looking for some advice . I started on file based audio around 6 months ago and know very little . The problem is as follows . I didn't listen to any music for a couple of days over the new year and when I started listening today I encountered some problems . The replay seems to be suffering from loss of sound , very briefly for a split second , intermittantly .
I have unplugged and reconnected all of the cables but still doing the same .
My system comprises a Dell 510m laptop running on XP . Using windows media player 11 and WAV music files ripped on my PC and transferred to the laptop using an external hard drive. . USB cable to V-link,
then digital coax to Caiman SEG.
I tried bypassing the V-Link and connecting straight into the Caiman USB , but still the same. I tried connecting the external hard drive and playing the music files on it , still the same . Was working fine up til today .
I think that the battery could be suspect . Could a dodgy battery cause this problem ?
I'm afraid I'm a bit of a numpty with all this so any help will be vert much appreciated as this is driving me daft. :mental:

[Welder]

It could be a number of things. ;)

Generally, intermittent sound is caused by software rather than hardware; hardware tends (in general to work or not)
Do you still get dropouts when the battery is charging?

Download this
http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
It doesn’t install in the system so you can run it from the download folder.
Play a file in your Windows Player and minimize the player to your task bar.
Then run dpc latency checker.
If you get spikes when the dropouts happen then you’ve probably got a system process interrupting the audio stream.

If this is the case then a possible easy temporary solution may be to use this
http://www.windowsxlive.net/fidelizer-instantly-computer-audiophile-workstation

However, take care when installing because it will try to change your browser homepage to the site, and if I remember right also try to install some other crap as well.
Just be careful to un-tick the right boxes.
One other problem with Fidelizer, it doesn’t like it when you shut windows down and tends to hang.
Just click the End Now option.
You have to start Fidelizer each time you want to play music because it quits at shutdown.

[brian2957]

Thanks John . I don't have the internet on the laptop as I only intended it for music playback . Can I download onto my PC and transfer via a pen drive ? Yes I still get dropouts when the battery is charging . Should I change the power settings to
'never' run on battery power i.e run on mains all the time .
Brian.

[jostber]

You can try to turn off the PC, take out the battery and start up with only the mains connected to see if that affects the sound. If the battery is faulty it will discharge very quickly or at once instead of lasting the usual time. This happens a lot with laptop batteries.

[brian2957]

Thanks Jostein , I will try any suggestion put forward.

Brian

[brian2957]

It could be a number of things. ;)

Generally, intermittent sound is caused by software rather than hardware; hardware tends (in general to work or not)
Do you still get dropouts when the battery is charging?

Download this
http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
It doesn’t install in the system so you can run it from the download folder.
Play a file in your Windows Player and minimize the player to your task bar.
Then run dpc latency checker.
If you get spikes when the dropouts happen then you’ve probably got a system process interrupting the audio stream.

If this is the case then a possible easy temporary solution may be to use this
http://www.windowsxlive.net/fidelizer-instantly-computer-audiophile-workstation

However, take care when installing because it will try to change your browser homepage to the site, and if I remember right also try to install some other crap as well.
Just be careful to un-tick the right boxes.
One other problem with Fidelizer, it doesn’t like it when you shut windows down and tends to hang.
Just click the End Now option.
You have to start Fidelizer each time you want to play music because it quits at shutdown.

John , can I ask if this can be repaired by uninstalling and reinstalling the XP operating system.
Brian.

[StanleyB]

One reason I don't use USB is because the USB port on a PC is in an IRQ (interrupt request queue ). So if you are playing music via USB and then operate another USB device like a USB mouse the audio signal can suddenly experience a drop out stream.
Also check your virus checker and firewall settings. If it gives you the option to ignore scanning WAV files, then do so.
Many years ago the USB port address 5000 strated being used by virus and trojan writers as a potential weak entry port to a PC. So virus software and firewalls ended up also doing a check on data that passed the USB port. Of course, this also includes audio and video files.

[dave2010]

What's on the laptop? How much disk space does it have, and how much is spare? If there's insufficient spare space then problems can arise, and will probably continue and get worse.

I'd recommend at least 10% spare space on the drive, and 15% or more may not be unreasonable.

Try defragmenting the drive.

Also check the processes running, and do a virus scan. However, note that virus scanning can itself be an intensive operation, and you night get audio problems if you run a checker at the same time as listening.

[bobbasrah]

Just my 2 cents...
It may be related to the USB interface, if anything else is using the hub? Mouse?
I don't know the V-link or Stan's DAC personally, or whether they need USB over Asio?
That said it makes no sense that the glitch has not shown up within the last 6 months, waiting as a Happy New Year present, so has anything been updated?
Assuming it is software or process related, either a concurrent program or the media player itself is the likely cause. Reinstalling XP is a bit drastic if only one component is causing the issue, and will not necessarily solve the problem long term.
If it is a process causing the hiccup, and you are using it as a dedicated machine, why not turn off any unused processed which are not necessary or used, or have you already done all that?

Might I suggest you download foobar along with the various plugins (Asio, ALAC, etc) or any other media player I guess to a memory stick, copy over to your laptop and install. Play a track and see if that clears the media player as the cause. This can be deleted later.

[StanleyB]

Whilst extra space on the drive helps, it isn't fast enough for buffering. If you got Windows7 use the Readyboost feature with an SD card. I did some extensive trials with and without Readyboost and can say without a question of a doubt that it makes a huge difference.

[dave2010]

Whilst extra space on the drive helps, it isn't fast enough for buffering. If you got Windows7 use the Readyboost feature with an SD card. I did some extensive trials with and without Readyboost and can say without a question of a doubt that it makes a huge difference.I agree with that, but in my experience if a drive gets full up, then the system as a whole gets problems - particularly with Windoze. This is often because of disk fragmentation, and once the problem has set in the only sensible thing to do is:
1. release as much spare/unwanted space as possible, THEN 2. defragment the disk, and if possible also the Page file(s). Merely releasing the space doesn't always fix the problems.

Trying to rip a lot of CDs on a laptop (no-one ever does that, do they ...!!) can cause the disk to fill up and become fragmented - as also using/manipulating/storing other large media files - photos, films etc.

FWIW I use Powerdefragmenter (free) on XP systems - does the job where the XP defragmenter won't even touch the disk. See http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/Hard-Disk-Utils/Power-Defragmenter.shtml

Pagedefrag is also worth running sometimes - http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897426 [by the same people as Powerdefragmenter]

Sometimes processes take up resources on a periodic basis, and this can lead to audio modulation. On a modern PC there is usually so much spare CPU capacity that this isn't a major problem, but some older ones can be challenged. Also some programs/processes do cause problems.

Computer viruses and other malware may also cause problems, so it makes sense to ensure that the drives are clean of these. Lastly, as I mentioned earlier, don't run a virus scan at the same time as listening, as some of the virus scanners can take up just about all the processor capacity, and having these kick in on startup is just a pain. One other thing which can be a pain is the Windows Update, which on some systems kicks in straight off at startup, thus delaying any useful work for a further 5-30 minutes.

If the OP's machine is lean and mean, then all of this is irrelevant, but if it's not, then he should try to get it as lean and mean as possible. Soluto is also a very useful tool to run at startup to see what gets running - amongst other things. See http://download.cnet.com/Soluto/3000-18512_4-75446583.html

There are other tools/techniques which can be used, but without knowing more that's enough for the moment.

[StanleyB]

I happen to run O&O Defrag as a standard process in the background of all my laptops.

[brian2957]

Many thanks for your time gents , I will work my way through your suggestions.
Just unplugged the battery and used on mains only , still the same .
Checked hard drive , has 101gb free space.
Brian.

[wee tee cee]

Brian,
I feel you're pain...I am a self confessed computer daftee.....great when they go.....
Tony.

[brian2957]

Aye mate . Gonny chuck it oot the windae :steam:

[bobbasrah]

Aye mate . Gonny chuck it oot the windae :steam:

Is that the one with the XP or Vista? :scratch:

[brian2957]

Hi Bob , it's XP .

[Welder]

Brian, have you tried dpc latency checker?

You can download it to any computer connected to the internet.
It should show up in your Downloads Folder.
Insert a USB stick into the computer you downloaded dpc to.
Go to My Computer, click on it and note the number of the drive that is the USB stick.
Click on your Download folder and then single click on the dpc file.
On the left of that window should be a copy command.
Click on that and a list of places where the dpc file can be copied to shows up.
Click on the drive number your USB stick is in.
Click on copy.
Go to the bottom of your screen and single click on Safely Remove hardware.
Single click on the USB drive with the stick in.
Wait a few seconds and remove USB stick.

Start up the computer you are having problems with.
Insert the USB stick.
Windows will open a small window which shows the USB stick.
Click on the USB stick drive and the contents of the USB stick should be displayed.
Single click on the DPC folder and then select from the menu at the side Copy to My Documents.

Once done, go back to the Safely Remove Hardware icon at the bottom of the screen and click that.
Remove USB stick.
Now go to My Documents and click on dpc and carry on as I indicate4d in my first post.


Let dpc run for a while music is playing.
If you get yellow or red spikes showing on the dpc latency checker come back here and we will go from there.

[Tim]

Brian, are you doing anything else on the laptop at the time this is occurring or is it purely acting as a music player? Also how long is your USB cable and have you changing it lately?

The only times I have encountered stuttering play on a laptop are as follows;

Long USB cable (3m)
Poor quality USB cable
Playback via a NAS whilst doing other things on the network
Screen-savers or power management kicking in - even the display blanking has induced a very short break in play.
Using a mouse

TBH I don't believe a fragmented file would cause this.

Are you able to monitor the laptop to see if there are any clues and does the HDD activity light operate at the time you get break up? As John has outlined the likely cause is that Windows is doing something else in the background. I would open up the Task Manager and monitor the CPU activity and see if you get spikes at the same time as the breaks? If the hardware is working the cause is more likely going to be a software issue and some sort of conflict or lack of system resources.

How much RAM has the laptop and how much is being used during playback, also what's the normal CPU activity? These can again be checked in Task Manager by right clicking the taskbar. Click the performance tab and you should see a Window like this one:

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/task.jpg

It will be slightly different, as this is from Windows 7, but you should suss it out. If you know how to do all this already, please excuse me.

Finally, what else is installed on the laptop that is likely to be running at the same time - can you let us know what's in the system tray, i.e. the small icons located at the bottom right of the task-bar near the clock?

Try John's suggestions too and report back ;)

[brian2957]

Brian, have you tried dpc latency checker?

You can download it to any computer connected to the internet.
It should show up in your Downloads Folder.
Insert a USB stick into the computer you downloaded dpc to.
Go to My Computer, click on it and note the number of the drive that is the USB stick.
Click on your Download folder and then single click on the dpc file.
On the left of that window should be a copy command.
Click on that and a list of places where the dpc file can be copied to shows up.
Click on the drive number your USB stick is in.
Click on copy.
Go to the bottom of your screen and single click on Safely Remove hardware.
Single click on the USB drive with the stick in.
Wait a few seconds and remove USB stick.

Start up the computer you are having problems with.
Insert the USB stick.
Windows will open a small window which shows the USB stick.
Click on the USB stick drive and the contents of the USB stick should be displayed.
Single click on the DPC folder and then select from the menu at the side Copy to My Documents.

Once done, go back to the Safely Remove Hardware icon at the bottom of the screen and click that.
Remove USB stick.
Now go to My Documents and click on dpc and carry on as I indicate4d in my first post.


Let dpc run for a while music is playing.
If you get yellow or red spikes showing on the dpc latency checker come back here and we will go from there.

John , thanks very much for taking the time to help me . I have done as you instructed and when music playing normally the bars are green all well below 500 . However when the glitches / dropouts occur the red spikes go right off the scale to above 16000 .
Brian.

[brian2957]

Brian, are you doing anything else on the laptop at the time this is occurring or is it purely acting as a music player? Also how long is your USB cable and have you changing it lately?

The only times I have encountered stuttering play on a laptop are as follows;

Long USB cable (3m)
Poor quality USB cable
Playback via a NAS whilst doing other things on the network
Screen-savers or power management kicking in - even the display blanking has induced a very short break in play.
Using a mouse

TBH I don't believe a fragmented file would cause this.

Are you able to monitor the laptop to see if there are any clues and does the HDD activity light operate at the time you get break up? As John has outlined the likely cause is that Windows is doing something else in the background. I would open up the Task Manager and monitor the CPU activity and see if you get spikes at the same time as the breaks? If the hardware is working the cause is more likely going to be a software issue and some sort of conflict or lack of system resources.

How much RAM has the laptop and how much is being used during playback, also what's the normal CPU activity? These can again be checked in Task Manager by right clicking the taskbar. Click the performance tab and you should see a Window like this one:

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/task.jpg

It will be slightly different, as this is from Windows 7, but you should suss it out. If you know how to do all this already, please excuse me.

Finally, what else is installed on the laptop that is likely to be running at the same time - can you let us know what's in the system tray, i.e. the small icons located at the bottom right of the task-bar near the clock?

Try John's suggestions too and report back ;)

Hi Tim , the music files are permenantly on the laptop .I'm usindg a QED USB cable. I also use a wireless mouse which I tried disconnecting but still the same . Don't know how to get into task manager I'm afraid . The laptop should have wireless capability and I was mucking around with this without success before new year , I don't know if this would cause the problem . On the subject of power management can you please tell me what is the ideal setting in your opinion.
Thanks for your help mate.
Brian.
Managed to get into task manager , looks quite similar to your graph . Can you tell me if I can give you some of the figures from this if it will help. Thanks.

[Welder]

Right Brian, you've got some system services interrupting the audio stream.
It's not terminal. ;)

If you have an Anti Virus running, stop that.
If you have Windows Update manager running stop that.

Have you tried Fidelizer?
Give that try. It wont break anything as it doesn't install in the system files.
Just bear in mind what i mentioned above about unchecking the "make such and such my home page"

Dont worry if Fidelizer hangs a bit at system shutdown for the moment.

[brian2957]

Right Brian, you've got some system services interrupting the audio stream.
It's not terminal. ;)

If you have an Anti Virus running, stop that.
If you have Windows Update manager running stop that.

Have you tried Fidelizer?
Give that try. It wont break anything as it doesn't install in the system files.
Just bear in mind what i mentioned above about unchecking the "make such and such my home page"

Dont worry if Fidelizer hangs a bit at system shutdown for the moment.
Hi John I tried Fidelizer but didn't work . I will check your other suggestions .
Right , no anti virus installed , windows update manager switched off , and home page switched to blank.

[Welder]

Hmm, if you’ve got task manager up and running Brian then leave it open while you play music; minimize the music player and run task manager full screen.

What you’re looking for is a system process that suddenly uses a lot more memory and then goes back to a normal state. Very roughly any process that goes above 40.000K may well be the problem.


(its times like this that internet relay chat really is useful) :(

[brian2957]

Hi John , been watching this for 20 mins and can't see any of processes which become erratic when glitch appears.
Brian.

[Welder]

It is possible that you have a failing RAM.
Use this to test
http://hcidesign.com/memtest/

It is also possible that you have a virus.
Run a scan.

As you mentioned, as a last resort a complete reinstall of Windows is always an option. This should at least remove any problem software provided you do a hard drive format and reinstall and not a Windows repair.
It can sometimes be quicker than finding a problem.

(running out of ideas now :( )

[Tim]

Before committing to a re-install, what about trying a different player to see if the problem is consistent?

Without going to the trouble of setting up and understanding foobar or another player, VLC will play WAV files and it's very easy to use Brian - just a thought :scratch:

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

[Welder]

Before you go for the reinstall process and /or heave the computer out of the window try reinstalling the media player you use.

I think this is a decent uninstaller for Windows. Use Advanced mode…..carefully.
http://www.revouninstaller.com/revo_uninstaller_free_download.html

Ah, Tim types quicker. Or what Tim suggests. ;)

[dave2010]

Brian

OK - thanks for letting us know about the spare disk space. You should have plenty, so that rules that out. Could still be worth running defrag and anti-virus to make sure the disk is clean.

Is there any chance of us taking a peek at the processes you're running from the Task Manager? It looks as though the CPU usage is reasonable from the graph, but there might be processes which kick in from time to time which are disrupting the system. Perhaps pay particular attention to processes which use a lot of CPU (even if only sporadically) or have large Page Fault values (or deltas). You might have to spend some time with a search engine to check whether each process is an allowed/approved one, before deciding what to do.

If a process is causing the problem, then this can be tested by killing the process and seeing if things improve - though it's not good to just kill off any process without some checks to see what it's supposed to do. If the problem can be isolated to a single process, the next step after that is to prevent that process from running from start-up. Cross that bridge if that does turn out to be the most likely reason. Some of the others have also given perfectly good possible causes, so you now have to work through these fairly slowly/methodically until you find something which works.

The advice to remake the system may be a really good one if you've not got too much on it already, and if you have the appropriate disks to make that possible. If you've installed lots of programs, even if you don't use them all the time, then it'll be quite a pain having to reinstall all over again, so in that case I'd recommend not rushing to remake the system. Some of my friends had a problem which went away when they decided to give up and do a clean update install of Windows 7.

Seems to me that you are making progress, and at least eliminating some possibilities from the enquiries.

Good luck with this.

[brian2957]

John , TIM and Dave , sorry Ididn't get back to you all sooner , I went to bed and slept on the problem . I had an XP disc in the cupboard and am re-installing XP as I write this ( I think ) . I will let you know how I get on when installation is complete and I reload some of my music files amd try them .
Many thanks again .
Brian.:scratch:

[brian2957]

Hello gents , sorry i didn't get back to you all sooner . This morning the wife suggested that I marry the laptop since Ispend more time with it than I do with her. I declined the offer since she gives me less Hassle than the laptop ;)
I thought I better spend some time with her today .
Anyway I re-installed windows XP and have been playing some music for the last half hour and everything seems ok so far:D.
a big thanks to John ( welder ) , Tim, Dave and everyone else who replied to my request for help. Thanks to you all I have broadened my very limited knowlwdge of file based audio playback and have a thread which I can refer to if I have the same problem . All I have to do now is re-install my music library :) Many thanks again for all your help.
Brian:cool:

[Tim]

Excellent, glad you got it sorted Brian :)

[brian2957]

Thanks for all your help mate . Don't know if it's my imagination but I could swear that it sounds even better than before .
Brian.

[Welder]

Esssssscellent! :D

Glad you're sorted Brian.

[Tim]

Thanks for all your help mate . Don't know if it's my imagination but I could swear that it sounds even better than before .
Brian.
Well it wouldn't surprise me at all Brian, in fact I would be surprised if it didn't sound a little better and proof that what's on a computer can and does interfere with SQ during playback. Is it just a music player now and not a laptop in general usage?

[brian2957]

Thanks very much John , for all your help , and for bringing your expertise to my problem.
Tim , yes I think you're correct . There is nothing running apart from the processes required to play music . I've been listening to music
for the last couple of hours and if my system sounded good before , it definetely sounds better now . I'm one happy boy :D
Thanks again to you both ,and although it's highly unlikely , I hope I can be of some assistance to you both in the future.
Brian.

[Tim]

Brian, are you going to use it just for music playback now - you could possibly improve it further with some selective pruning of the O/S?

[Welder]

Absolutely no problem Brian; thanks for the thanks. :)

Now, let me exacerbate your migraine and forthcoming divorce procedure further and suggest that if you are going to not use the laptop for tea making, hoovering and washing up in future :doh:………(isn’t that what you got married for :eek: :D) then give this a whirl.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902

Basically, it shows you what is running on your machine and gives you the opportunity to either disable completely, or make manual start up.
Most of the stuff that autoruns doesn’t actually need to. When you access the application or process, it self starts, so 90% of the stuff that is running can be made manual start up without worries.

All I would say is make an image of each section (tab)…..use Prt Scrn on the keyboard, go to Paint in Accessories, click on Edit, right click you mouse to paste the image into paint. You can then save it somewhere…My Documents for example and refer to it if you crash stuff.



Gorn orf to play with Linux some more.

[brian2957]

Tim , yes I will only be using the Laptop for playback and nothing else and would of course be open to any suggestions which you may have.

[brian2957]

Absolutely no problem Brian; thanks for the thanks. :)

Now, let me exacerbate your migraine and forthcoming divorce procedure further and suggest that if you are going to not use the laptop for tea making, hoovering and washing up in future :doh:………(isn’t that what you got married for :eek: :D) then give this a whirl.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902

Basically, it shows you what is running on your machine and gives you the opportunity to either disable completely, or make manual start up.
Most of the stuff that autoruns doesn’t actually need to. When you access the application or process, it self starts, so 90% of the stuff that is running can be made manual start up without worries.

All I would say is make an image of each section (tab)…..use Prt Scrn on the keyboard, go to Paint in Accessories, click on Edit, right click you mouse to paste the image into paint. You can then save it somewhere…My Documents for example and refer to it if you crash stuff.



Gorn orf to play with Linux some more.
This looks interestimg john , the problem is I wouldn't know what to disable or make manual start . Can you possibly give me an idea of what I should be looking at for both please .
Thanks
Brian.

[Welder]

I think I've got some screenshots of my pld XP settings from the laptop. The problem is they are on a back up drive and i cant lay my hands on it atm.

From what i remember the application itself is quite good at suggesting what you can safely disable completely and what you can run as manual.
Each entry can be right clicked on to show dependencies if my memory serves me.

[brian2957]

Thanks John I 'll have a look in the morning , too busy enjoying the music .
That's what it's all about afterall ,isn't it.
Ta Brian.

[brian2957]

I think I've got some screenshots of my pld XP settings from the laptop. The problem is they are on a back up drive and i cant lay my hands on it atm.

From what i remember the application itself is quite good at suggesting what you can safely disable completely and what you can run as manual.
Each entry can be right clicked on to show dependencies if my memory serves me.
Hi John I used your programme this morning and disabled all the processes that
that I dared to . Probably being a bit over cautious but this is the best I've heard my system sounding and I don't want to f**c it up . Thanks.
Brian.

[dave2010]

Excellent, glad you got it sorted Brian :)Seconded (thirded!). You maybe don't even need to connect that machine to the internet - though it depends how you want to use it. Could avoid some malware problems by remaining disconnected, and you perhaps wouldn't even need to have an active firewall, or other security software, which could make operation even leaner and meaner.

The only snag with not connecting to the internet is that if, in a year or more, you do, then there'll be a massive hiccup while the thing downloads all the MS upgrades. You'd also have to remember to turn any security features back on before connecting. Been there, done that - though not actually with a year between turning my machine off then on again. Even a few months can be a pain.

Perhaps the thing to do is to turn the auto download feature off. I wonder if any MS OS is really good for a dedicated music system - maybe Unix or Linux would be better - but that's for another day.

V. Glad you are enjoying the music.

John - interesting that link to the Windows Autoruns page. I use other software from Russinovich (contig, Powerdefragmenter, Pagedefragmenter) - but not so far this one. Useful to know about.

[brian2957]

Thanks Dave, I will be using this for audio only as I have another PC and netbook in the house connected to the internet . I have turned off firewall and automatic updates along with anything else I thought I could . Result seems to be a subtle but very worthwhile improvement in sound quality. Linux etc. a bit further down the road for me I think . I will just keep on reading information from the experts on here and enjoy the music in the meantime.
Thanks,
Brian.

[bobbasrah]

Seconded (thirded!).
....The only snag with not connecting to the internet is that if, in a year or more, you do, then there'll be a massive hiccup while the thing downloads all the MS upgrades.....

IF indeed it is supported in any way by MS....

[Welder]

Thanks Dave, I will be using this for audio only as I have another PC and netbook in the house connected to the internet . I have turned off firewall and automatic updates along with anything else I thought I could . Result seems to be a subtle but very worthwhile improvement in sound quality. Linux etc. a bit further down the road for me I think . I will just keep on reading information from the experts on here and enjoy the music in the meantime.
Thanks,
Brian.

Interesting you should mention Linux :eyebrows:

I'm just writing up my day of playing with Linux and i reckon I've got a goer for those that have stuck with XP.

[brian2957]

Look forward to it John.