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aBe
03-12-2008, 15:47
My First Post..

Just would like to praise Stan (heaps of) for coming out with such a 'helluva' product. The 7510 6/4 DAC is absolutely a stormer, and a steal for its price.

The DAC has totally changed my perception on compressed music files. Yes, the sound from MP3s has now been transformed from being It's-not-too-bad to Wow-this-is-music. Better still, Lossless files have never sound this good too.

And admittedly (though with a heavy heart), the Beresford even improves the performance of my GBP1000+ CD Player, equipped with twin DAC7/TDA1547s. It is now being permanently connected to the CDP.

--------------------

BTW, I also got the Airport Express toslinked to the DAC to stream music. The AE is currently on 'Joint Network' mode (AE joining Netgear Wireless router network)

My questions are :
Would joint network mode affect sound quality as I believe AE's traffic will always be routed to the Netgear router before being transmitted. Would the output still be bit-perfect?
Or should I just put the AE on standalone mode to preserve sound quality?

Cheers!

StanleyB
03-12-2008, 17:37
When I put on my site that the TC-7510 had some additional work done on it in order to make it more friendly to wireless audio transmission and ripped music I got a lot of stick and questions on a number of forums. Of course, since it is one of the secrets embedded in my DAC that no doubt many other manufacturers would love to find out, I am keeping quiet about how I did it;). But when it comes to ripped and transmitted audio, I don't think there is much out there that has had attention paid in their design to those issues.

In the case of your method of connection of the AE: as long as you don't get audible drop outs you are OK. I am reclocking the signal (which is unheard of in a DAC of such a low price as far as I know), and it is then locked onto a PLL clock. This makes it very resistant to wireless transmission fluctuations. I copied the idea from a couple of TV RF amplifiers I designed to cope with digital TV transmission. Those amps have been sold under various brand names, including Labgear, and made a few people some good money. I am not one of them though:(. But the technology works a treat in the TC-7510.

Gazjam
03-12-2008, 19:38
My First Post..

Just would like to praise Stan (heaps of) for coming out with such a 'helluva' product. The 7510 6/4 DAC is absolutely a stormer, and a steal for its price.

The DAC has totally changed my perception on compressed music files. Yes, the sound from MP3s has now been transformed from being It's-not-too-bad to Wow-this-is-music. Better still, Lossless files have never sound this good too.

And admittedly (though with a heavy heart), the Beresford even improves the performance of my GBP1000+ CD Player, equipped with twin DAC7/TDA1547s. It is now being permanently connected to the CDP.

--------------------

BTW, I also got the Airport Express toslinked to the DAC to stream music. The AE is currently on 'Joint Network' mode (AE joining Netgear Wireless router network)

My questions are :
Would joint network mode affect sound quality as I believe AE's traffic will always be routed to the Netgear router before being transmitted. Would the output still be bit-perfect?
Or should I just put the AE on standalone mode to preserve sound quality?

Cheers!


HI, Welcome to AOS!

I'm always being nosey...what was the £1000GBP CD player the 7510 beat?

Filterlab
03-12-2008, 21:44
Hi Abe and welcome!

I too would like to know which CD player you're using, my experience of £1000 CD players is that the DACs seem to be almost forgotten about in terms of R&D and quality of implementation. Consequently I'm unsurprised that Stan's DAC has improved it no end, it seems to be the DAC to have these days. :)

On the AE thing, I'd echo Stan's answer. Assuming the signal strength is high, there should be no discernible degradation as the data transfer rate by far exceeds the required data rate for 16bit music. Relax and enjoy. ;)

aBe
04-12-2008, 09:25
Rob and Gazjam, thanks for the warm welcome.


The CD Player in question is actually the long in the tooth Marantz CD10.
But, hey it was one of 'the' CDP to beat circa 15 years ago. It goes deeper and unearths more details than the Linn Karik that a friend own.

Simply put the 7510 has managed to trounce two
highly capable, flagship CDPs of the early nineties.
Which is no small feat..

As for the AE issue, so far I'm not hearing any discernible differences between Joint mode and direct connection but well, being the curious cat I just don't want to end up with an inferior setup..even if my ears really can't figure 'em out. :lol:

Filterlab
04-12-2008, 09:51
The CD Player in question is actually the long in the tooth Marantz CD10.
But, hey it was one of 'the' CDP to beat circa 15 years ago. It goes deeper and unearths more details than the Linn Karik that a friend own.

Simply put the 7510 has managed to trounce two
highly capable, flagship CDPs of the early nineties.
Which is no small feat..

The CD10 is a cracking machine, but digital being digital is constantly being researched and modified and it moves on a long way in a short period of time. DACs are all the rage now as more and more folk discover the merits (audiophile ones at that) of computer based audio, so the DAC manufacturing bods are working their socks off to keep the technology at the forefront of audiophilia. It comes as no surprise that adding an offboard DAC to your CD player has freshened it up somewhat, after all it's the DAC that does the majority of the work.


As for the AE issue, so far I'm not hearing any discernible differences between Joint mode and direct connection but well, being the curious cat I just don't want to end up with an inferior setup..even if my ears really can't figure 'em out. :lol:

Well, if you can't hear then don't worry! Although I know exactly what you mean. ;)

kbuech
04-02-2009, 06:28
This is a question for Stan:

Hello Stan,

I'm excited that I am soon to be the owner of a TC-7510! Please tell me the proper settings to use with my Mac and Airport Express devices. Audio Midi setup on a Mac computer allows one to choose, for audio output, 44,100, 48,000, or 96,000 hz and either 16, 20, or 24 bit.

Thank you!

Kurt Buechler

StanleyB
04-02-2009, 06:58
Hi Kurt, you can use any of them on the MAC, including the higher 24 bit/96K. Just listen to the playback of each track however to see if it sounds OK. If there are issues with the original recording or the ripper used to rip the track, the DAC is likely to show them up.

STan

Beechwoods
04-02-2009, 07:17
On a Mac, make sure the Audio Midi word length and sample rate settings match that of the files most often played and ripped on your system. This will ensure that your Mac isn't resampling everything to a different output bit and sample rate. As with everything, it's better to get the source right in the first place...

kbuech
04-02-2009, 07:26
Hi Kurt, you can use any of them on the MAC, including the higher 24 bit/96K. Just listen to the playback of each track however to see if it sounds OK. If there are issues with the original recording or the ripper used to rip the track, the DAC is likely to show them up.

STan

Hi Stan,

I'm up late in Jackson, Mississippi USA and you are up early in the UK! Thanks for the quick reply.

I am having trouble figuring out how to order the TC-7520. I went here:

http://www.beresford.me/main/main.html

And could only find ordering links for the TC-7510. That is your official website, right? Please help.

Thanks again,

Kurt

kbuech
04-02-2009, 07:30
On a Mac, make sure the Audio Midi word length and sample rate settings match that of the files most often played and ripped on your system. This will ensure that your Mac isn't resampling everything to a different output bit and sample rate. As with everything, it's better to get the source right in the first place...

Hi Beechwoods,

Thanks for that. I use Apple iTunes v. 8.0.2 on my Mac and always rip to Apple Lossless (ALAC). What would be my best setting for Audio Midi Setup then? 44,100 and 16 bit?

I very much appreciate the help!

Kurt

Beechwoods
04-02-2009, 07:47
Yep! If you haven't set iTunes to rip with a different sample rate and bit setting, 16b/44.1khz would be right :)

kbuech
04-02-2009, 08:06
Yep! If you haven't set iTunes to rip with a different sample rate and bit setting, 16b/44.1khz would be right :)

Is it possible to set iTunes to rip with other sample and bit rates? Advisable?

Thanks again,

Kurt

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 11:42
Is it possible to set iTunes to rip with other sample and bit rates? Advisable?

Thanks again,

Kurt

Nope, and not great unless you like the effect of aliasing (and some do). Have a look at the Audio Midi settings, Apple have a tendency to set the default to 24bit/44.1Khz rather than 16/44.1.

Rather than using iTunes, try Max (http://sbooth.org/Max/) using .caf (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MusicAudio/Reference/CAFSpec/CAF_overview/chapter_2_section_2.html) files or XLD (http://tmkk.hp.infoseek.co.jp/xld/index_e.html) using offset correction and .aiff files (XLD is much better albeit a bit trickier to use) and try using Cog (http://cogx.org/) for playback, the quality is a monumental improvement over iTunes. In fact all of these pieces of software destroy iTunes for sound quality and, as long as you don't mind losing iTunes' GUI and ease of use, are much more satisfactory for the discerning audiophile. :)

Beechwoods
04-02-2009, 11:48
Heh heh! I thought I'd leave an opening for you to give the definitive and extended answer Rob :)

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 12:58
;) Well, an overview answer anyway. :)

kbuech
04-02-2009, 16:58
Nope, and not great unless you like the effect of aliasing (and some do). Have a look at the Audio Midi settings, Apple have a tendency to set the default to 24bit/44.1Khz rather than 16/44.1.

Rather than using iTunes, try Max (http://sbooth.org/Max/) using .caf (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MusicAudio/Reference/CAFSpec/CAF_overview/chapter_2_section_2.html) files or XLD (http://tmkk.hp.infoseek.co.jp/xld/index_e.html) using offset correction and .aiff files (XLD is much better albeit a bit trickier to use) and try using Cog (http://cogx.org/) for playback, the quality is a monumental improvement over iTunes. In fact all of these pieces of software destroy iTunes for sound quality and, as long as you don't mind losing iTunes' GUI and ease of use, are much more satisfactory for the discerning audiophile. :)


Thanks Rob and Nick!

Have either of you tried Banshee, since it is now ported to Mac OSX. This is a VERY popular music management app for Linux. It sounds good to me so far, though the OSX version is bereft of features and a bit unstable right now. I wonder what my output settings in Audio Midi should be when using this?

Also, I sent a question to Rogue Amoeba on whether the Airfoil app converts audio to 16bit/ 44.1 before sending to AEX. Most of my listening to AEX and DAC is with Airfoil and not iTunes doing the network broadcasting.

Any comments?

Kurt

Beechwoods
04-02-2009, 19:26
Hi Kurt,

Well... According to this article in Stereophile, the Airport Express resamples everything to 16bit 44.1khz. I doubt that Airtfoil does anything more than hijack the audio output and direct it to the AE, so I'm guessing you get the same with Airfoil.

http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/505apple/

Edit: Just found this article confirming that Airfoil doesn't defeat the 16 bit 44.1khz reampling that's standard in AE: http://geekwithfamily.com/2006/06/04/audiophile/psp-airtunes-coverbuddy-dance-party-update-24-882-upsampling/

I would strongly recommend that you stick with 16/44.1 as your Audio Midi output to avoid any resampling of the signal along the way.

If you put together a large collection of hi-res audio files - say DVD-Audio or hi-res downloads then your best bet would be to switch to the higher resolution in Audio Midi (or make the switch from 16/44.1 when you want to listen to those files), while plugging your DAC directly into your Mac, bypassing the AE.

PS. Off to try Banshee. Thanks for the tip - I'd not heard of it before :)

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 20:06
I would strongly recommend that you stick with 16/44.1 as your Audio Midi output to avoid any resampling of the signal along the way.

That's top quality advice, it means less corruption of the audio signal and more faith to the original rip. Your DAC will upsample the 16/44.1 audio signal anyway but as it will be in multiples of 44.1 (to 352.8 I believe) aliasing won't be a problem.


If you put together a large collection of hi-res audio files - say DVD-Audio or hi-res downloads then your best bet would be to switch to the higher resolution in Audio Midi (or make the switch from 16/44.1 when you want to listen to those files), while plugging your DAC directly into your Mac, bypassing the AE.

You will definitely want to avoid the Express when playing high resolution and, as Nick said, ensure that your Audio Midi set-up is appropriate for the resolution you intend to play. High resolution master recordings (24bit/96Khz) from the likes of iTrax (http://www.itrax.com/) are nothing short of breathtaking when played back with the appropriate settings.

kbuech
04-02-2009, 23:34
Hi Kurt,

Well... According to this article in Stereophile, the Airport Express resamples everything to 16bit 44.1khz. I doubt that Airtfoil does anything more than hijack the audio output and direct it to the AE, so I'm guessing you get the same with Airfoil.

http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/505apple/

Edit: Just found this article confirming that Airfoil doesn't defeat the 16 bit 44.1khz reampling that's standard in AE: http://geekwithfamily.com/2006/06/04/audiophile/psp-airtunes-coverbuddy-dance-party-update-24-882-upsampling/

I would strongly recommend that you stick with 16/44.1 as your Audio Midi output to avoid any resampling of the signal along the way.

If you put together a large collection of hi-res audio files - say DVD-Audio or hi-res downloads then your best bet would be to switch to the higher resolution in Audio Midi (or make the switch from 16/44.1 when you want to listen to those files), while plugging your DAC directly into your Mac, bypassing the AE.

PS. Off to try Banshee. Thanks for the tip - I'd not heard of it before :)

Hey Nick,

Very cool. Had not seen the article on Airfoil and it's throttling audio streams to 16/44.1. Bummer! I have the Stereophile article, which is where I learned that the AEX really could be Hi-Fi with lossless audio files and a good DAC.

It is SO good to find digital-heads like me who are into networked music. I sold Linn/Naim kit for a few years in the 1980s and came to the digital party a bit late. It keeps getting better ;)

Hope you like Banshee. It still has a long way to go on OSX, but shows real promise. Now we have to figure out what sampling rates and word lengths it will output to Core Audio in the Mac.

From what I just read, it looks like I will have to play higher sampling rate audio files with a player other than iTunes to be sure I have 48.0/96.0 and 20/24/32bit out to the usb and into the DAC.

Kurt

kbuech
04-02-2009, 23:37
That's top quality advice, it means less corruption of the audio signal and more faith to the original rip. Your DAC will upsample the 16/44.1 audio signal anyway but as it will be in multiples of 44.1 (to 352.8 I believe) aliasing won't be a problem.



You will definitely want to avoid the Express when playing high resolution and, as Nick said, ensure that your Audio Midi set-up is appropriate for the resolution you intend to play. High resolution master recordings (24bit/96Khz) from the likes of iTrax (http://www.itrax.com/) are nothing short of breathtaking when played back with the appropriate settings.

Thanks, Rob. I now have to explore iTrax!!:dance::dance::dance:

Kurt

Filterlab
05-02-2009, 12:43
From what I just read, it looks like I will have to play higher sampling rate audio files with a player other than iTunes to be sure I have 48.0/96.0 and 20/24/32bit out to the usb and into the DAC.

Cog is your answer, it can handle pretty much anything up to 64bit float. As long as your Audio Midi resolution settings are direct multiples of the source file, everything will sound gorgeous.


Thanks, Rob. I now have to explore iTrax!!:dance::dance::dance

You can thank Tony from Coherent Systems (Mr.C) for putting me on to that one, the full resolution 24/96 master recordings are nothing short of stunning! Download takes a little while as expected, but full album downloads can be done in one click and I leave my Mac downloading overnight (as also recommended by Tony - top chap). The range of tracks is growing weekly, and I've found that it opens one's mind to artists one may have not considered or even heard of. Great site, and sensible prices too.

Enjoy mate! Computer based audiophile replay is gathering momentum at an alarming pace, there's new software released practically every day so it's always worth keeping abreast of developments, and where better to do that than your friendly Art of Sound forum. :)

:gig:

Filterlab
05-02-2009, 12:45
Nice to have you onboard by the way Kurt. :)

kbuech
05-02-2009, 22:01
Nice to have you onboard by the way Kurt. :)

Glad to be on board, Rob. Thanks for all of the above!!

BTW- I just pre-ordered the Beresford TC-7520 from Stan. Can't wait to get my hands on it!!

Kurt

kbuech
13-02-2009, 16:35
Hey y'all, from Jackson, Mississippi in the States,

I posted the following question via Email to Stan but thought it worth posting here for comments as well. Please let me know if you think the topic deserves a new thread......


I have an opportunity to buy a used iBook Mac to use as my dedicated music server. It does not have a toslink optical output, so I would be limited to usb into the Beresford 7520. At $350 US, this seems like a more useful (and probably better sounding) option for listening to my lossless audio files and internet radio than the purchase of a Slim Devices Squeezebox 3 to output to the 7520.

Would it be worth me spending the additional $300 US to buy a used Mac that will output optical? Only 5% of my listening would be to files recorded as 96/24 and I know that the rest of my files, 44.1/16, would input via either optical or usb into the 7520.

What do you think? Do you have a preference for usb vs. optical into the 7520 with 44.1/16 music?

I appreciate anyone's help!!

Kurt :peace:

Labarum
13-02-2009, 17:10
1. The Squeezebox Classic or Duet will stream bitperfectly at 16/44, and if you use the latest version of Squeezecentre 24/96 files will be downsampled on the fly. Squeezebox works well with the Standac and many prefer the S/PDIF electrical connection over optical. Does your analogue replay chain have the resolution to show the difference between 16/44 and 24/96?

2. Stan has been remarkably quiet about what his USB input will do. Since, it seems, it will use standard drivers it will (at least with windows) only work at 16bit.

3. A new MacMini might be a better deal than a second hand iBook. With both the Macmini and the iBook the optical output would probably better a USB link.

See

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/node/1425

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/node/1551

and do some more reading in that forum.

kbuech
13-02-2009, 17:49
Thanks, Brian,

I may get the Squeezebox.

And yes, both of my systems (below) could resolve any differences in reproduction quality.

Kurt

Labarum
13-02-2009, 18:06
Thanks, Brian,

I may get the Squeezebox.


Read here too

http://forums.slimdevices.com/

kbuech
14-02-2009, 03:59
See

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/node/1425

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/node/1551

and do some more reading in that forum.[/QUOTE]


Love that forum, Brian!! Super big thanks again!!!

Kurt:guitar:

aBe
16-03-2009, 09:26
The other day I've tried connecting the AE to the iBook via Ethernet cable since I did not want to put it into 'Joint Mode' for I'm afraid that it might degrade the input signal.

Well..I don't know whether CAT5 cable would never make a good hifi cable.
The sound gotten from wired connection is waaay inferior compared to Wireless.

I always thought the digital signal out from the soundcard into the AE should be bit perfect regardless of connection media. It is not, indeed.