View Full Version : Tube amps/ LS3/5a.
southall-1998
31-12-2011, 23:14
Any particular tube amps that work well with 11 ohm Rogers LS3/5a?
Regards.
The Grand Wazoo
01-01-2012, 01:48
If you must use LS3/5a's, then a Radford STA15 is the most perfect match I've ever heard.
jandl100
01-01-2012, 09:03
:lol:
I take it you aren't a fan, then, Chris!
Must admit I like them .... but they only really do the job for me when hooked up with a decent small subwoofer - a BK200 or a REL Quake do very nicely.
Heresy, I know. :eyebrows:
Turns the LS3/5a into a very dynamic and full range beast. Set the x-over point up sensibly and the wonderful mids are untouched. I was amazed, tbh.
Personally, I'd do that before any valve amp adventures.
The Grand Wazoo
01-01-2012, 09:29
I really do appreciate them for what they do well, because that is quite beguiling.
However, their shortcomings fall far too short for me to be able to live with them.
Times I've heard them with a well integrated subwoofer, they've been quite good, as you say.
topoxforddoc
01-01-2012, 11:21
I have used my LS3/5as and AB1s with both my Radford STA15 and Quad IIs. Both were excellent although the STA was better.
Didn't you sell a good matching valve amp recently Shane?
southall-1998
01-01-2012, 14:47
Didn't you sell a good matching valve amp recently Shane?
I can't remember, Dave. Sorry!
southall-1998
01-01-2012, 14:48
I know NOTHING about Radfords. What's the difference between the STA15 & 25? How much do they sell for? Any particular preamps that work well with these old amps?
Regards.
I can't remember, Dave. Sorry!
Audio Innovations 500?
Radfords were some of the very best transformer coupled valve amps available in the UK back in the 60's and were regarded as such I recall. They all fetch mucho money these days and it's not uncommon for a set in need of a rebuild to go for well over a grand these days.
Haven't heard it, but the reputation of the Apollon seems good and it's NEW and will carry a warranty.
Wakefield Turntables
01-01-2012, 15:22
I know NOTHING about Radfords. What's the difference between the STA15 & 25? How much do they sell for? Any particular preamps that work well with these old amps?
Regards.
Radfords are indeed an excellent set of amps, you'll need to make sure that they are finely fettled to get the best out of them. I use mine with celestion speakers which are ok, they sound much better with ESL57's. Never heard them with a set of ls3/5a's so cant comment. Radfords sell for lots of money but you'll get your money back and then maybe a little more besides;)
Interesting quote from Wikipedia here:
Reportedly, Radford make amplifiers with such low distortion that they had to build their own test equipment to measure it; their test equipment also acquired a reputation for quality.
The last models were made here until 2004:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwllheli
Is this possible to pronounce? :)
Audio Innovations 500?
.
I've got a Audio Innovations 800 up for grabs soon ? ;)
The amp that was built for the LS3/5a's is a Rogers E40 made by Audio Innovations ( Audio Note )
Here's a pic of one
http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=95236.0
If you must use LS3/5a's, then a Radford STA15 is the most perfect match I've ever heard.
Funnily enough the Radford 15 I bought was being played with a pair of Stirling LS3/5A on those bespoke stands (bass extenders ?) and whilst I heard the set up for only 10 mins. or so it captivated me. It was this that made me end up with the baby Harbs. I acknowledge what's been said by Mr Wazoo about limitations and fair play, but this set up does it for me. And with a Leak 20. The Quad IIs just don't seem to have enough whack though.
Again, repeating what's been said, no longer pocket money entry fee for these amps. but you'll not loose out. Especially if you don't ever sell it ;-)
If ever your near Nottm Shane, let me know and stick 'em in the boot of your car.
Rogers E40 is meant to suit.
Have never heard one.
I used to have chartwell ls3's and strangely enough after trying a dozen or so amps a very early 80's sony str forget which one reciever was the best.
Only paid a few quid for the amp.
jazzpiano
01-01-2012, 22:27
I used to have Rogers LS3/5as w/ c-j MV45, an el-34 tube-based amp. I believe el-34 tubes are supposed to work well w/ LS3/5as, though I'm sure different amps sound differently. It was symbiotic for me and I always regretted parting with this combo.
Best,
Barry
jandl100
02-01-2012, 07:17
Personally, I don't think el34 tubes work with anything!
But hey-ho - that's just one of my (many) little foibles. :)
I always thought it was down to the output transformers Jerry?
Personally, I don't think el34 tubes work with anything!
But hey-ho - that's just one of my (many) little foibles. :)
Hi Jerry,
I'm the sort of forum goer who'll never jump down somebody's throat, but this statement I find surprising ! Personal taste and all that I suppose ;-)
Did you really say that ? C'mon.........
Please discuss !
Cheers, Ian.
jandl100
03-01-2012, 07:00
Oh - OK - seeing as you asked. :)
And I know that I share these opinions / general experiences with at least 2 other folk who have similarly broad experience with hifi as I do.
Yes, I am about to cause rolled eyes and/or offend lots of people I am sure ... "Oh, my xyz el34 amp is wonderful ... blah blah blah".
Fine. Good. Enjoy it - but I doubt if I would!
OK, here we go - all el34 based amps that I have had in-depth experience with are PEMs. Pizzaz Extraction Machines. They suck the musical interest out of the music and just leave a boring, plodding facsimile of same.
It matters not if they are little Chinese amps or full blown Brit designed and made 100wpc monoblocks with massive transformers. . They all do it, to a greater or lesser extent.
They are the Meridian equipment of the glowing-bottle world! (There, I've now offended even more people :eyebrows: - but Marco for one will know what I am on about with that analogy, even if he disagrees with its applicability to el34's. ;).)
A good friend of mine has PrimaLuna amps. Very clever self-biasing kit that allows you to substitute a variety of tube types. Use EL34 tubes and it's snooze time ... replace with 6CA7 tubes and the whole presentation comes to life. Same kit, just different valves in the sockets. I think that experience can be generalised.
So there you have it. :)
They are the Meridian equipment of the glowing-bottle world! (There, I've now offended even more people - but Marco for one will know what I am on about with that analogy, even if he disagrees with its applicability to el34's ;))
Indeed, most Meridian gear I've heard is from the sleepy land of yawnsville, but I'm afraid that I've got little experience of small power valves, like EL34s, so can't really comment.
I'd say that I prefer the even smaller EL84s, as I find them more musically involving and interesting, but with push-pull valve amps, my passion lies with KT88s, and now more recently, KT120s, which in a really well-designed amp with massive hand-wound transformers (like my copper amp) kick ass like no EL34 or 84 amp could ever dream of! :fingers: :eyebrows:
Marco.
jandl100
03-01-2012, 07:42
I'd say that I prefer the even smaller EL84s, as I find them more musically involving and interesting
Yep - that captures the essence of my proposition. :)
How can we agree on so much about hi-fi, yet disagree so vehemently about Tannoys? Lol :lol:
Marco.
jandl100
03-01-2012, 07:58
I'd say that I prefer the even smaller EL84s
... ah, Leak Stereo 20 ... now that's my sort of valve amp! Musical involvement in spades. :thumbsup:
But, yes, it's strange about the Tannoy thing. :scratch:
Yup, love Stereo 20s!
In all seriousness, regarding Tannoys, I know where you're coming from. However, I think it's a combination of both not being as aware as you of the negative effects of their sonic signature, and simply accepting them as part of the process of 'choosing one's compromises', which is necessary with all things in hi-fi, as NOTHING is perfect! ;)
Marco.
jandl100
03-01-2012, 08:19
Yes, it's all about the compromises that are acceptable to you.
I guess some el34 fans might say "well, yes, OK ... but oh that midrange liquidity!".
And don't worry, Marco - when I become King, I'll let you keep your Tannoys. ;)
Hehehe... Aye! :eyebrows:
I agree with you about "midrange liquidity". Listening to say, a Radford STA25 (the best EL34-based amp I've heard), confirms this, as its musical insight and openness in the midrange is quite phenomenal, but this is ruined somewhat by the under-damped and rather soggy bass, certainly compared to the 'grippy' and sphincter-tight bottom end available with the best, more powerful, push-pull KT88 (and KT120) designs.
However, you may only notice that effect with big speakers. The Radford's arguably charming 'plumpness' in the bass may actually be of benefit with small speakers, giving them some much needed warmth and body, where uber-tightness and control isn't entirely necessary, or even desirable.
Personally, as a large speaker user, I couldn't live with a valve amp that doesn't have both the bass grip and extension of a solid-state behemoth, and the mellifluous tonality, musical subtlety and 'airiness' one only gets with glowing bottles, but then, I set myself high standards, and the amps I like don't come cheap! ;)
I guess also that much depends on the music one listens to. If one lives on a diet of smoochy-sounding female vocals, 1950s crooners (Sinatra, etc), small-scale jazz, or choral music, then arguably a superb EL34 design, like the Radford, would be hard to beat.
At the end of the day, it's about whatever floats your particular boat :)
Marco.
jandl100
03-01-2012, 09:21
I guess also that much depends on the music one listens to. If one lives on a diet of smoochy-sounding female vocals, 1950s crooners (Sinatra, etc), small-scale jazz, or choral music, then arguably a superb EL34 design, like the Radford, would be hard to beat.
Interesting thought, Marco. Maybe the el34 is the Ortofon SPU of the valve world! :)
Lol - no it bloody isn't, cheeky-chops... I use an SPU and it doesn't sound anything like that!
It's one of those 'audio myths' that exists, due to the uninitiated who've never heard an SPU optimally matched and set-up, forming conclusive opinions from inadequate experience ;)
A good SPU sounds addictively musical, in the way of a DL-103, only ten times better at what it does best, and without any of its foibles.
Marco.
jandl100
03-01-2012, 09:31
Whoops! - I seem to have hit a nerve there. :lol:
No, I've never heard an SPU, I'm just going by what a visitor, and SPU owner, to Jerry Towers said the other day. :)
- maybe he needs to upgrade his system. :eyebrows:
spendorman
03-01-2012, 10:27
I know NOTHING about Radfords. What's the difference between the STA15 & 25? How much do they sell for? Any particular preamps that work well with these old amps?
Regards.
STA15 has 22 Watts RMS per channel and valve rectification, STA25 has 35 Watts RMS per channel and solid state rectification. Both have massive output and mains transformers.
Some say that the STA15 is a little sweeter.
I can say that the STA 25 III works very well with Chartwell LS3/5a, or almost any other speaker for that matter.
To get a reasonable STA 15 or 25 for around £1000 would be a good deal.
No, I've never heard an SPU, I'm just going by what a visitor, and SPU owner, to Jerry Towers said the other day.
- maybe he needs to upgrade his system. :eyebrows:
Lol - I bet it was Griffo? He has the same opinion of the 103, and undoubtedly nice chap that he is aside, fits the description perfectly of what I outlined earlier! ;)
Mind you, anyone who thinks that Lyras sound 'right', is bound to think that anything else which sounds less thin-toned and toppy, is wrong.
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
03-01-2012, 10:58
Jerry & Marco's views are of course but two views among many. Why worry about soggy bass - with these speakers, there ain't no bass at all!
I have heard many EL34 amps and owned a few - almost all of them sounded rather like the vintage amp caricature. But the Radford STA15 certainly doesn't have that character, it's the most modern sounding amp of all the vintage British valve amps. Soggy bass? No.
The OP here was enquiring about amps that will get the most out of LS3/5a's. That speaker is all about the mid-range and image placement - it has no other purpose in life than to shine a very bright spotlight on those two areas.
I can't think of anyone who's heard the Radford & LS3/5a combination who hasn't thought it wonderful and unmatchable in those two areas. My personal view is that until you've heard that combination, Shane, you will never have the slightest idea of what your speakers are capable of.
I completely agree, Chris; hence why I wrote this earlier:
However, you may only notice that effect with big speakers. The Radford's arguably charming 'plumpness' in the bass may actually be of benefit with small speakers, giving them some much needed warmth and body, where uber-tightness and control isn't entirely necessary, or even desirable.
LS3/5As certainly come into that category. The goal in this instance is to maximise midrange acuity, so in that respect, the Radford/LS35A combo is a match made in heaven :)
Try the same thing though, using my Lockwoods, and trust me, flabbiness in the bass is what you would get, compared with the likes of the Copper amp, which has much bigger trannies and produces 50W of pure Class A, all necessary to properly grip those huge 15" cones!
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
03-01-2012, 11:29
Horses for courses - The reason why I don't use my Radford with my Mirage speakers is because they can take all the power you care to throw at them......and some more. That's why bi-amping with my Levinsons works so well.
However, connect it to the type of speakers they work well with and it's utterly convincing and totally beguiling. But that doesn't mean necessarily sticking to those that are bass shy.
To get a reasonable STA 15 or 25 for around £1000 would be a good deal.
The market value of a tidy STA15 will be known in a week or so, as being defined by the one on ebay.
I don't like to dwell too much on cost though, more the value and pleasure of ownership.
Horses for courses - The reason why I don't use my Radford with my Mirage speakers is because they can take all the power you care to throw at them......and some more. That's why bi-amping with my Levinsons works so well.
However, connect it to the type of speakers they work well with and it's utterly convincing and totally beguiling. But that doesn't mean necessarily sticking to those that are bass shy.
Sure, Chris. Like I said, all I can do is report what I hear :)
To my ears, with huge speakers (and here I'm talking about those which use drive units of 12" and above, in suitably large cabinets) push-pull valve amps designed with small output tubes (and here I mean anything smaller than a KT88), whilst sounding lovely in the midrange, just sound correspondingly 'small', and also rather tubby in the bass, in comparison to amps which use bigger output tubes, such as KT88s or 120s, and thus much bigger trannies - the key, IME, to the best sounding valve amps.
High-quality iron, and lots of it, is what it's all about!
No EL34 or 84 amp I've heard can produce the thunderous and sheer gut-wrenching scale and impact of my 50W KT120-powered copper amp, or others of a similar ilk, and reproduce music with such gob-smacking vigour and intensity, with suitable speakers, all of which for me is essential when listening to the likes of Godsmack or Rammstein at near-live gig levels in my small room, where a Radford, excellent as it is in its own right, would simply fall apart and hold up the white flag! ;)
Marco.
Oh - OK - seeing as you asked. :)
And I know that I share these opinions / general experiences with at least 2 other folk who have similarly broad experience with hifi as I do.
Yes, I am about to cause rolled eyes and/or offend lots of people I am sure ... "Oh, my xyz el34 amp is wonderful ... blah blah blah".
Fine. Good. Enjoy it - but I doubt if I would!
OK, here we go - all el34 based amps that I have had in-depth experience with are PEMs. Pizzaz Extraction Machines. They suck the musical interest out of the music and just leave a boring, plodding facsimile of same.
It matters not if they are little Chinese amps or full blown Brit designed and made 100wpc monoblocks with massive transformers. . They all do it, to a greater or lesser extent.
They are the Meridian equipment of the glowing-bottle world! (There, I've now offended even more people :eyebrows: - but Marco for one will know what I am on about with that analogy, even if he disagrees with its applicability to el34's. ;).)
A good friend of mine has PrimaLuna amps. Very clever self-biasing kit that allows you to substitute a variety of tube types. Use EL34 tubes and it's snooze time ... replace with 6CA7 tubes and the whole presentation comes to life. Same kit, just different valves in the sockets. I think that experience can be generalised.
So there you have it. :)
Fair play Jerry, I did indeed ask. Is the 6CA7 a direct drop in replacement for any EL34 amp do you know ? Always happy to try something new.
Not heard of the PEM being included in the spec. of any amp. though.....;-)
The Grand Wazoo
03-01-2012, 12:15
I think I've said here before that the approach taken with the (very) old Sound Sales three way amp (forget the model name) may just have been the perfect choice of technology. It used KT88's for the bass, EL34's for the mid & EL84's for the treble, all on the same chassis! I'd love to see a well implemented modern version of something like that!
I think I've said here before that the approach taken with the (very) old Sound Sales three way amp (forget the model name) may just have been the perfect choice of technology. It used KT88's for the bass, EL34's for the mid & EL84's for the treble, all on the same chassis! I'd love to see a well implemented modern version of something like that!
I want one and I want one now !
jandl100
03-01-2012, 12:39
Lol - I bet it was Griffo?
:whistle:
Is the 6CA7 a direct drop in replacement for any EL34 amp do you know ? Always happy to try something new.
Yup, I believe so.
It's the "Americanised" version of the el34, whatever that means!
http://thetubestore.com/el346ca7types.html " A direct replacement, with military reliability, for any EL34 tube type."
I think I've said here before that the approach taken with the (very) old Sound Sales three way amp (forget the model name) may just have been the perfect choice of technology. It used KT88's for the bass, EL34's for the mid & EL84's for the treble, all on the same chassis! I'd love to see a well implemented modern version of something like that!
Indeed - sounds ideal! Although, one wonders if the effect of complicating the circuitry, in the way that would be necessary in order to achieve the amp's design goals, would outweigh any of its potential sonic benefits? If it were to end up as being merely a jack of all trades and a master of none, then such an amp wouldn't interest me.
The thing is, I can say from personal experience that it's possible to have the best of both worlds, as Anthony's push-pull KT88-based copper amps provide 98% of the sweetness amd musicality in the midrange of a good EL34 or 84 design (and indeed of the best single-ended amps in this area), together with the balls and scale associated with valve amps, powered by the larger available output tubes.
It's about having an innate knowledge of circuit design and extensive experience of knowing how to correctly voice final products by ear.
Problem is, all that thermionic lurveliness comes at not inconsiderable cost (think £5k+, here) ;)
Marco.
:whistle:
Yup, I believe so.
It's the "Americanised" version of the el34, whatever that means!
http://thetubestore.com/el346ca7types.html " A direct replacement, with military reliability, for any EL34 tube type."
Cheers Jerry, might have a pop with these sometime.
jazzpiano
03-01-2012, 16:08
Thanks Chris, I think you put it in context. I was only thinking of el-34 in combo w/ LS3/5as - in the case of the c-j, it had 4, 8, and 16 ohm taps, the LS3/5as didn't have any bass anyways, so that isn't a loss, and I thought it played to its strengths. But, I should add that my only experience w/ power output tubes is el-34 and 6550, so I'm sure there are great tubes I haven't heard (yet!).
Best,
Barry
southall-1998
03-01-2012, 17:50
What about the Pure Sound A30? Anyone tried it with LS3/5a's?
The amp's a cracker with Tannoys :eyebrows:
I found this amp to be very musical and would of thought it will be fine with LS3/5a's but what do i know
southall-1998
03-01-2012, 20:11
Had a friend recommending me the Quad II.
Never used and heard Quad II, can they be used with an active preamp?
Cheers.
Yes, but I don't think it's ideal, since an ss preamp will have a far wider bandwidth than the II's. may not be an issue at all in practice, but my II's aren't totally standard.
southall-1998
03-01-2012, 20:29
Any particular preamp that works very well with the Quad II?
Cheers
Any particular preamp that works very well with the Quad II?
Cheers
My only experience with pre-amps and the Quad II are the Croft Micro 25 and the Eastern Electric BBA, both were great. I've stuck with the Croft but can't bring myself to move the other on ! I wouldn't say the IIs have enough whack to drive my Harbeth P3ESR though. Don't know how the load compares with the LS3/5A.
southall-1998
03-01-2012, 20:51
And you do mean the modern Croft Micro 25?
Any particular preamp that works very well with the Quad II?
Cheers
You REALLY want me to get into trouble again with you-know-who???????
Any good modern tube preamp will drive II's to absolute perfection - and there's quite a few around.. For solid state that would be safe, a Quad 33/44/66/77 etc would be great and any Naim preamp should also be fine. Not sure if the II's are sensitive enough to allow a passive preamp, but if they are.....:)
And you do mean the modern Croft Micro 25?
Yup, lovely bit of kit.
southall-1998
03-01-2012, 21:02
Cheers guys.
S.
jandl100
04-01-2012, 07:22
Quad II - the ultimate pipe & slippers amps, imho.
Wonderful rich tonal colours - a real "Wow!" moment when I first heard them - but about as fast and lively as a concussed snail!
Would not be my choice of amps, but we're all different, aren't we. :)
Just the job for snappy, quacky 3/5A's though :D
Sounds like a great way of realistically reproducing recorded music... Let's do things arse about face and create some euphonic coloration! :doh:
Marco.
spendorman
04-01-2012, 10:32
You REALLY want me to get into trouble again with you-know-who???????
Any good modern tube preamp will drive II's to absolute perfection - and there's quite a few around.. For solid state that would be safe, a Quad 33/44/66/77 etc would be great and any Naim preamp should also be fine. Not sure if the II's are sensitive enough to allow a passive preamp, but if they are.....:)
Not sure about Quad 33 driving Quad II's. I seem to remember that the Quad II requires 1.4V for full output, and the Quad 33 has only 0.5 V output.
I think it's the reason that I bought a new Quad 44 when they first came out, but it's a long time ago.
jandl100
04-01-2012, 10:50
LS3/5a quacky?? :scratch:
They sound clean and pure to me. :)
Trickie_Dickie
04-01-2012, 18:55
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff441/payitforwardeddie/BBCAM86.jpg
These are what you need, if you can find any. My uncle refurbished a pair many years ago and they sounded perfect. They had a bass boost circuit using an inductor in the front end. I believe the Beeb designed them with the LS3/5A in mind. :cool:
Trickie_Dickie
04-01-2012, 19:05
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff441/payitforwardeddie/ampunder.jpg
The black can on the left is the bass boost inductor.
These are not the ones my uncle refurbished. :doh:
These are what you need...
What exactly are they, Richard?
Lot's of lovely iron there, so they've certainly got a fighting chance of sounding good! :)
Marco.
greenhomeelectronics
05-01-2012, 11:32
Ok, I can't just sit back and take the comments about EL34's being too laid back:) When we looked at producing our own valve amp we originally looked at a KT88 based unit, in the end we went with an EL34 based unit as I loved the sound they produced. Our amp (Apollon Audio Apache) can be set to ultra linear or triode, in UL mode it opens up a lot. Feed some AC/DC or ZZ Top through it and it really comes alive. It has been favourably reviewed by Martin Colloms in December's Hifi Critic, I can't tell you what he said due to publishing rights restrictions but he did say it was a good listening experience. I still maintain that the output transformers matter as much as the valves themselves, we spent more time in this area than on any other design consideration. You can read the article by subscribing to www.hificritic.com
alternatively if anybody wants to give it a try out just contact me and we will try and set something up. Don't forget to bring your pipe and slippers (triode mode) and your air guitar (UL mode):lol:
Dave.
jandl100
07-01-2012, 07:30
:oops:
Hi Dave and HNY! :cool:
& btw, I'm sure your el34 amp sounds great! :D
Hi Dave,
I still maintain that the output transformers matter as much as the valves themselves, we spent more time in this area than on any other design consideration.
+100!!
I completely and utterly agree - and extensive experience of experimenting in that area proves that you're right!
Quite simply, the two things that matter most with a valve amp is the circuit used and the quality (size and cores) of the transformers. The effect of anything else, whilst influential, pales into insignificance.
Therefore, I'm sure your amps sound superb. Right now, I've got too much going on, but when I have the time to do them justice by giving them a proper listen, I'll let you know :cool:
Marco.
jandl100
30-01-2012, 08:32
OK, here we go - all el34 based amps that I have had in-depth experience with are PEMs. Pizzaz Extraction Machines. They suck the musical interest out of the music and just leave a boring, plodding facsimile of same.
....... A good friend of mine has PrimaLuna amps. Very clever self-biasing kit that allows you to substitute a variety of tube types. Use EL34 tubes and it's snooze time ... replace with 6CA7 tubes and the whole presentation comes to life. Same kit, just different valves in the sockets. I think that experience can be generalised.
Fair play Jerry, I did indeed ask. Is the 6CA7 a direct drop in replacement for any EL34 amp do you know ? Always happy to try something new.
Here you go IHP, some excellent 6CA7 tubes for sale ... http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15541
These 2 guys clearly agree with me about the 6CA7 tube being by far the best EL34 type ... snap 'em up!
:)
Dingdong
30-01-2012, 09:17
I'm quite happy with my EL34 amp. It doesn't sound sleep inducing to me. Feel free to pop round to our room at Scalford and bring your favourite music. I'd be interested to do a snooze test.
jandl100
30-01-2012, 09:26
:zzz: hmmm? what? sorry .... I've been listening to an el34 amp.
Only kidding! :carrot: You likee? - you enjoyee! :thumbsup:
.. but I would be interested in your thoughts if you subbed some 6CA7 toobs. :hmm:
Dingdong
30-01-2012, 10:00
I might try them when my current tubes are up for replacement. They seem cheaper than my Winged C's for matched quads.
I'm very happy with the valves I've got though.
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