View Full Version : Digital how good can it get?
I must admit although I use digital media and have used a computer aa part of front end for years I am still a bit of analogue snob (digital will never be as good as analogue)
Well the last few days has made me re-think my views.
When I intially tried Jplay in my system I had a lot of issues uploading it. But I now managed to get it uploaded and now use it to listen to music.
Its a significant upgrade and has left me thinking how much further can I push the digital side of my system.
I say at the moment my weak links are
1) I can use USB from my computer so need a beeter USB to SPDI converter
2) I could do better in the DAC. The hlly pretty good to my ears but I just to tend to think something like a Rega would take things so much further
I also need to read some kind of easy read version for computer idiots like myself on how to get the best out of digital. I have to admit when people start getting very techinical I tend to switch off.
I have finally got to the point where I do not have a front end source as preference.
The "digital" we hear as end users is really more to do with the recordings and mastering for domestic consumption as much as anything else IMO. So many audiophool tweaks actually seem to go away from the potential that's there and often, as with vinyl, it's the simplest route that can give the most pleasure I feel..
Glad you've found a way to enjoy all your cources now, with no difficulty :)
Welcome aboard John.
I'm pleased you finally got JPlay working and that little program does reveal what can be achieved on a standard computer, when it gets everything out the way. I think the mistake most people make (and I include myself here too) the first time they dip their toe into file based audio, is firstly a dismissive frame of mind followed by a trial on a 'normal' home computer with an OK DAC. The results are often likely to disappoint and at that stage they give up, as their trial has confirmed their initial opinion of 'how can a computer play music well'.
If you are not comfortable around computers this is where it can prove difficult, especially when the language gets technical. I agree with your conclusions too and as an analogue lover, I think the Rega DAC should definitely be heard, as it presents the music in a way you are most likely to prefer and be comfortable with and Stan's Caiman's are excellent too.
I have no doubt John if you want to push the boundaries of what file based audio can give you, you will find plenty of help here :)
StanleyB
31-12-2011, 11:10
Hi John, why not borrow a Caiman and a Gator board off me to try out? You are only about 5 minutes driving or 15 minutes walking from me after all. Pick it up any time over the weekend. PM me for my address.
That sounds a wonderful idea Stan
I give you a PM
realysm42
31-12-2011, 11:34
Tim/John - would you say that Jplay makes an audible difference to your digital music? Enough to warrant the cost of buying the full version?
If yes can you explain what you hear?
I'm still ripping my music, but if you think it's worth the effort I'll download it and check it out - thanks.
StanleyB
31-12-2011, 11:38
I use Mediamonkey myself. Just installed REV4.02. I love the fact that it can show what sample rate a track was recorded at. Makes it easy for me to weed out the fake high res files.
Tim/John - would you say that Jplay makes an audible difference to your digital music? Enough to warrant the cost of buying the full version?
There is a lot about JPlay here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12735&highlight=jplay
Depends on how you intend to use it Martin? In my case it was not worth purchasing, but read the above thread to see why, as my system is different to most being built exclusively for file based audio.
realysm42
31-12-2011, 11:47
There is a lot about JPlay here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12735&highlight=jplay
Depends on how you intend to use it Martin? In my case it was not worth purchasing, but read the above thread to see why, as my system is different to most being built exclusively for file based audio.
Cheers for the link Tim.
Can I ask how your PC is built specifically for file playback, what components did you choose and why?
Mine's more of a gaming rig, but I'm considering getting rid of my Nvidia 295 and and large CPU heatsink as I play games less and less now.
***EDIT*** Just read about your PC in the other thread
I see I can't use JPlayer as I use XP and not Windows7.
A friend has a very high-end computer/DAC playback solution and knows how to set it up. As mentioned before, much is down to the mastering but irrespective, that is what has to be used. At the end of the day I would say it is OK (smooth, certainly no nasty sharp edges), and marginally better than the more mid-priced combo he used before (which was even smoother). However, choose the right record (and there are a lot of them) and the vinyl still shows the digital a very clean pair of heels.
Its a big step up, you can get a trail version to test for yourself but it will stop every 3 ro 4 mins for a few secs: but at least you can hear for yourself.
Everything a lot more cleaner more open holographic its not a subtle step up either
I really wish I understood the technical side more so I would know how to better implement this to a higher degree
Dave I think you just being your usual scpetic self, nothing wrong with this but from my understanding at present its about getting all the basics right; a bit like a good TT set up.So you need to think about using really good ripping like EAC software to bypassing all the internal gunk going on in the computer by using something like Jplay. it is with this kind of level of detail you start to hear digital true potential. (and I still think I am a long way from reaching what digital truly capable off)
I was skeptic about this too
I see I can't use JPlayer as I use XP and not Windows7.
A friend has a very high-end computer/DAC playback solution and knows how to set it up. As mentioned before, much is down to the mastering but irrespective, that is what has to be used. At the end of the day I would say it is OK (smooth, certainly no nasty sharp edges), and marginally better than the more mid-priced combo he used before (which was even smoother). However, choose the right record (and there are a lot of them) and the vinyl still shows the digital a very clean pair of heels.
I used to think the same but these days I think they pretty much the same league and I have a very high end vinyl based system
Mark Grant
31-12-2011, 12:19
1) I can use USB from my computer so need a better USB to SPDIF converter
Try connecting the DAC by USB cable to the computer rather than SPDIF from a USB converter, or connect both and do a comparison.
I have finally got to the point where I do not have a front end source as preference.
Amazing :)
It sounds better through the cheap converter than direct USB to be honest not a lot of difference but notice it more in Jplay
StanleyB
31-12-2011, 12:30
Why use USB to SPDIF instead of SPDIF direct?
I kind of wondering what a really good converter would do
StanleyB
31-12-2011, 12:41
It's the conversion process that worries me. I would prefer to leave any conversion to the DAC chip, and timing control to the receiver chip.
I get where you coming from Stan
But a lot of us do not have computers with optical out and with a laptop there is not really the room to add so I am stuck with what I got and making the best out of it
Some of the converters are getting really good feedback both on forums and in the press. Of course like anything the proof is in the listening
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue51/usb_converters.htm
The JKM2Teach Face is getting some very good reviews and not to crazy pricing compaired to some of the higher end examples of this
StanleyB
31-12-2011, 13:10
I get where you coming from Stan
But a lot of us do not have computers with optical out and with a laptop there is not really the room to add so I am stuck with what I got and making the best out of it
If you got an express card slot on your laptop you can borrow my express card with optical output to try out. That's assuming I can lay my hand on the spare card. I'll have a look for it.
Ahh so there is a easier way around not using a usb interface via laptop
StanleyB
31-12-2011, 13:38
O yeah, o yeah :D. I can even play 96KHz 24 bit files through that card. It uses its own drivers, which bypasses the Windows drivers.
wee tee cee
31-12-2011, 15:40
John,
I run a basic dell lap top, I tunes everything ripped at lossless and a musical fidelity v link. I run the v link with a 5m belkin pro usb cable, about £7 .The V link connects to my my dac via an excellent mark grant supra/wtb cable you have the choice of optcal if that suits. The results are a noticeable improvement over direct usb to the dac. I found the v link plug and play without any issues with software. I have tried it in a few friends systems - all have purchased one after hearing it.
Dac wise, Ali Tate had me over at his place recently and we had a listen to a number of dacs. The chinese job he had at £60 was not lacking in anything well worth investigation. Glad you're investigating the digital side of audio.
Regards Tony.
However, choose the right record (and there are a lot of them) and the vinyl still shows the digital a very clean pair of heels.
In my opinion may have been a more balanced response here, especially from a trade member ;)
IMO that is too sweeping a statement . . . what are you comparing and how much do they cost?
I'm running JPLAY v4.1, it is a total revelation. Foobar/ ASIO or JRiver don't come anywhere close. This player is seriously good, I'm running it into a 7520 with the passive mod and then into a Burson Buffer. You really would think it's a turntable, there's no "digitus" whatsoever. The freebie players I've used are not in the same league. I can't say whether a machine built specifically as a music server would be better, this really is flipping good.
Good to see it's still working for you Clive. I must try and keep an eye on it as they are surely developing it ..... has anything changed since we last discussed it?
No doubt it's still the one to beat on a standard home computer that is multi use - less is more ;)
Good to see it's still working for you Clive. I must try and keep an eye on it as they are surely developing it ..... has anything changed since we last discussed it?
No doubt it's still the one to beat on a standard home computer that is multi use - less is more ;)
Hi Tim, I don't believe we've discussed JPLAY before; I only installed it yesterday....I can't comment on anything pre V4.1 as I've not heard any other version. I was shocked at how it completely betters Foobar / ASIO, it's like going from elevator music to a really good system. Stan's dac does no re-clocking or do anything else to cure jitter on USB so I can believe the improvement with some other dacs could be less but I'm aware of a similar effect for someone who has a Rega dac which does re-clock.
BTW, my laptop for Foobar is very stripped down, something like 7 processes running iirc.
I don't like JPLAY as a plugin for JRiver, it just doesn't sound the same, bass light and to much upper mid, not the same sound at all.
Hi Tim, I don't believe we've discussed JPLAY before; I only installed it yesterday.
:lol:, there we go.... senile brain kicking in again! I thought it was you that first suggested it to me. Never mind just ignore me :wheniwasaboy:
:lol:, there we go.... senile brain kicking in again! I thought it was you that first suggested it to me. Never mind just ignore me :wheniwasaboy:
Maybe I forgot I installed it months ago! :lol:
Ken Moreland
31-12-2011, 17:16
Currently the JPLAY engine acts as as Windows service and this enables it to grab sufficient memory at startup. It can then be run via Foobar , iTunes , JRiver or by the mimimalist JPLAYmini. There are now various degrees of Hibernation for those who don't want to relinquish control of their PC for an album.
For my money it's the best 99euro I've ever spent and the best sound is from JPLAYmini on Full Hibernate.
KM
Ali Tait
31-12-2011, 17:21
John,
I run a basic dell lap top, I tunes everything ripped at lossless and a musical fidelity v link. I run the v link with a 5m belkin pro usb cable, about £7 .The V link connects to my my dac via an excellent mark grant supra/wtb cable you have the choice of optcal if that suits. The results are a noticeable improvement over direct usb to the dac. I found the v link plug and play without any issues with software. I have tried it in a few friends systems - all have purchased one after hearing it.
Dac wise, Ali Tate had me over at his place recently and we had a listen to a number of dacs. The chinese job he had at £60 was not lacking in anything well worth investigation. Glad you're investigating the digital side of audio.
Regards Tony.
Yes, the AK4396 dac is very good indeed, and unmatched for the money IMHO. Tony, I've swapped out the board in the valve dac and it's back sounding very good. I could bring it over sometime if you like?
Currently the JPLAY engine acts as as Windows service and this enables it to grab sufficient memory at startup. It can then be run via Foobar , iTunes , JRiver or by the mimimalist JPLAYmini. There are now various degrees of Hibernation for those who don't want to relinquish control of their PC for an album.
Thanks Ken, as I guessed they have moved forward with it - time to check it out again methinks. You can't stand still in this game and very interesting to see it now integrates into the popular media players.
wee tee cee
01-01-2012, 10:19
Ali,
I would love to hear it fighting fit in my set up,It would let you hear what the 4 monos do as well. Will have a look at my shifts and work out a window of opportunity.
Regards Tony.
Hi,
Have any of you guys extolling the virtues of JPLAY v4.1 any experience of running 'fideliser' in foobar or comparing the two? From what little I understand of them both they both appear to work on a similar principle, that of shutting everything else down that isn't actively involved in playing music.
Any thoughts, anybody?
Cheers,
Dave.
I found that JPLAYmini on it's own sounds so much better than JRiver + JPLAY so I've lost interest in anything but JPLAYmini, the lack of a UI is unfortunate but it's a price I'm prepared to pay. I will get around to trying it with Foobar but that's said to be the least good quality option.
It the same for itunes with Jplayer and according to a friend Jplayer mini workrs better than using it with foobar and a lot better than foobar on it own
In Jplay mini all that will be happening on your computer is the play back of music
The XXHighend also sounds like it is worth investigating and I will do that latter in the week when I will have the opportunity to compare
How would JPlay fare against the Itunes + Bitperfect (on a Mac of course) ?
I think its just for windows only ?
The XXhighend I think plays in Mac
sq225917
01-01-2012, 18:08
How would JPlay fare against the Itunes + Bitperfect (on a Mac of course) ?
I assume they would both very much depend on the dac and its ability to reject jitter and electrical noise on the signal cable. If your dac is good enough then surely it wouldn't make any difference what software or source provides the bits.
I find my Weiss 202 via Firewire MB-pro doesn't care what software it is fed by, my Mdac however, fed via USb, is influenced by what's happening at the other end of the wire.
... Stan's dac does no re-clocking or do anything else to cure jitter on USB so I can believe the improvement with some other dacs could be less but I'm aware of a similar effect for someone who has a Rega dac which does re-clock....
Apologies for quoting myself! Where to put jitter reduction is philosophical discussion, the main thing is that it gets done. Ensuring the source is low jitter is a great start but as you suggest Simon, it doesn't have to be that way around but getting the source right seems a good approach.
If your dac is good enough then surely it wouldn't make any difference what software or source provides the bits.
Not so I'm afraid, if only it were this simple :scratch:
Not so I'm afraid, if only it were this simple :scratch:
I strongly agree with Tim.
JRiver sounds more organic compared to Foobar on Win machine.
Itunes sounds a lot better with Bitperfect, rather than without.
I'd rather not put the blame on my Stan Dac..
sq225917
04-01-2012, 09:49
Not so I'm afraid, if only it were this simple :scratch:
I'd be really interested if you could come up with any potential mechanism to explain this.
If you dac can reject all source noise coming in with the signal, and buffers the data to remove jitter what do you think might be left that the source can effect- you have after all just removed all the variables. My point is that no dac can remove all signal borne noise and do a perfect job with jitter, but the better the dac the closer it gets.
Whether or not we'd like to 'blame' a component we are financially and emotionally invested in the truth of the matter is simple, you can lay the blame at the source if you like and say it isn't good enough but it isn't good enough for the dac it is plugged into, it may be entirely competent with another and vice versa.
StanleyB
04-01-2012, 09:57
Stan's dac does no re-clocking or do anything else to cure jitter on USB so I can believe the improvement with some other dacs could be less but I'm aware of a similar effect for someone who has a Rega dac which does re-clock..
I do implement re-clocking of the USB data, as well as for the Coax and TOSLINK data. It is a feature of the receiver chip on the PCB.
Mind you, I still prefer playing a CD in a CDP through a DAC than playing an audio file from a PC through the same DAC. The graininess from all those audio drivers that I have tried can throw up some terrible results on content rich audio files.
purite audio
04-01-2012, 10:13
If the sound quality isn't as good through your PC then there is something wrong with you digital replay, I mentioned this to you years ago Stan that you should ask M2Tech to OEM an Async data transfer solution for your dacs.
SQ from an optical drive or from hard disc can be indistinguishable, indeed I prefer H,
Keith.
StanleyB
04-01-2012, 10:23
Hi Keith, I got several chip manufacturers offering me asynch USB, but I honestly don't believe that async is better than isync or adaptive. I have given my technical reasons for that many times, and I even picked up a piece written by the main designer at Bell Canto who came to the same conclusion.
I don't believe either that the graininess from the various audio drivers is due to the PC. I am convinced it is due to the software code. Only recently I installed a piece of audio software that then installed ASIO over my default X-FI card audio drivers. At a stroke the audio from the card has gone all grainy and fuzzy. Even after removing the ASIA drivers the sound has not come back to what it was before.
Stan apologies for my mis-informed re-clocking comment.
Have you tried JPLAYmini? I'm using it with a passived 7520, the sound is stunning, absolutely no grain and it's WAY better than Foobar / ASIO, indeed it makes Foobar sound like it's playing low bit-rate MP3.
StanleyB
04-01-2012, 10:38
I shall give that a try, but I suspect that I'll have to first see if I can do a restore of all my X-FI drivers. I think that one or other recently installed audio driver has made the X-FI drivers unstable. I am using optical out from the card so that I try out the 24/96 options from a PC.
purite audio
04-01-2012, 11:38
Hi Keith, I got several chip manufacturers offering me asynch USB, but I honestly don't believe that async is better than isync or adaptive. I have given my technical reasons for that many times, and I even picked up a piece written by the main designer at Bell Canto who came to the same conclusion.
I don't believe either that the graininess from the various audio drivers is due to the PC. I am convinced it is due to the software code. Only recently I installed a piece of audio software that then installed ASIO over my default X-FI card audio drivers. At a stroke the audio from the card has gone all grainy and fuzzy. Even after removing the ASIA drivers the sound has not come back to what it was before.
Proof is in the pudding, we have sold quite a number of HiFaces and EVO's to Beresford owners, I would seriously
look into it Stan, the future you know.
Kr Keith.
SQ from an optical drive or from hard disc can be indistinguishable, indeed I prefer H,
Keith.
Keith,
Please don't take this the wrong way but isn't the above statement somewhat contradictory? How can you have a preference between two indistinguishables?
I can't say that I can perceive any differences either but that might be because my system isn't capable of showing any differences :) .
Dave.
sq225917
04-01-2012, 12:46
I assume keith means that he prefers the interface and usability of a HD solution as the sound quality is indistinguishable from a cd based source.
Just another to recommend Jplay mini, it really is a big improvement over foobar and Itunes
Just using the Caiman + the results are jaw droping good
purite audio
04-01-2012, 15:19
A friend of mine who is a digital engineer is putting together a music server for me Intel/PC based, he has reported very encouraging results using JPlay especially now it integrated seamlessly with JRiver.
Keith.
I tried JPLAY with JRiver the other day, it still wasn't close for SQ vs JPLAYmini. Nice interface though. BTW in case anyone's wondering, there's no connection between the companies. JPLAP's J comes from Josef, the owner.
Just another to recommend Jplay mini, it really is a big improvement over foobar and Itunes
John, just wondering what type of comparisons you are making here? Are these against a plain vanilla install of foobar and iTunes, or with the JPLAY plug-in. Also have you done any comparisons with foobar2000 and the WASAPI and asio4all plug-ins against the differing versions of JPLAY?
Additionally a description of your computer, operating system and how it's set-up would assist too as I'm not getting anything different to my normal jaw dropping results, if you see where I'm coming from ;) However, this is possibly due to being used to the excellent sound quality possible from file based audio, so all these reports don't mean a lot without knowing where your baseline is, if you see what I mean.
Hope this makes sense?
What is very encouraging is that folk are realising the potential of this and that computers can produce some very fine music :)
Hi Tim
I am not really good on the techinical side of computers Tim but I do my best to let you know how I am running it
I find using Jplay mini in Hibernation mode to offer the best sound results I mainly use foobar without the add ons so perhaps others like Clive can add some light
with my system I hear no difference between using Itunes and Foobar this might b different for those that understand how to get the best out of Foobar
If I am using Itunes with Jplayer I notice a improvement in sound compaired to Itunes or Foobar on their own
If I use Jplay mini the difference is much more pronuced its like hearing my Salvation at its best. Tremendous soundstage and everything is so clean no difital harshness wht so ever and totally 3d soundstage.
What I am not sure off is how much this is due to using open baffles compaired to standard box speakers I have come to a view point that the clean bass I have compaired to standard speakers allows to get the best out of digital. I have no udea if this is right but just a conclussion I keep having when I hear other peoples systems with a lot better digital systems than me get poorer results
Like John I'm using OBs with very clean and deep bass, my Foobar setup includes ASIO4ALL and a stripped down XP. With JPLAYmini all the ambiance and imaging arrived - really quite unexpectedly. OBs excel at this, maybe this assists in some way.
Thanks guys. As far as I can see JPLAYmini is the same as the original JPLAY that was discussed earlier last year and the upgrade to the program 'appears' to be the addition of it's playback possibilities, rather than a change to the playback engine. I will have a look see inside it later on with Notepad ++ as I have the original for a comparison. With my limited understanding of how it works, you should get the best playback with mini and improve that marginally with hibernation mode, which seems to be what folk are reporting.
Even though I still don't think it's for me, I'm very encouraged that they are developing it, as this means the other players in the game cannot rest on their laurels. It's all good and pleasing to see people here are happy with the results :)
Maybe we can get an easy alternative to Linux for the masses with all this progress, but like John I do feel that is the one to beat even though I have yet to try a Linux based player myself.
I really like the idea of Linux based system but reading John's arcticle it really scares me to try so until I feel its not going to be a real headache I will stick with Jplayer
Whats great to see is they seem to be a few ways to get the best out of digital and as you say this can only help others to raise their game
Thanks guys. As far as I can see JPLAYmini is the same as the original JPLAY that was discussed earlier last year and the upgrade to the program 'appears' to be the addition of it's playback possibilities, rather than a change to the playback engine. I will have a look see inside it later on with Notepad ++ as I have the original for a comparison. With my limited understanding of how it works, you should get the best playback with mini and improve that marginally with hibernation mode, which seems to be what folk are reporting.
Even though I still don't think it's for me, I'm very encouraged that they are developing it, as this means the other players in the game cannot rest on their laurels. It's all good and pleasing to see people here are happy with the results :)
Maybe we can get an easy alternative to Linux for the masses with all this progress, but like John I do feel that is the one to beat even though I have yet to try a Linux based player myself.
There should be changes to JPLAYmini between V3 and V4 as people report better sound, some of the options became standard though whether the engines (Beach and River) changed would be good to know. V4.1 just brought JRiver support via a dll.
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