Painted and Non Painted Tonearms

[Artifolk]

Just been sitting here thinking( Yeah, yeah, I know) about whether Paint or Powder Coating has any effect to the sound on a given tonearm as apposed to a non painted version of said tonearm.
It must have some effect,due to the extra thickness/Weight( very small i know) of the arm tube ,whether or not this is detrimental, its something that's bugging me.

1, Would it help with rigidity by increasing the Mass?
2. Create increased instability due to the extra surface area and Mass?
3, Effect the magnetic signuture of the Metal in any way?
4, Or do you think no difference that could be heard?
5, Am i barking:mental:?

Your thoughts.

[Reid Malenfant]

5. Woof, woof, woof :eyebrows:

6. It may well effect things by damping the arm tube to an extent ;) Which covers 4 I believe...

1, 2 & 3 you might as well not even think about imho...

[keiths]

I guess it has an effect as many of the modified Rega RB250/300 arms (and some of Rega's own higher end arms) have the paint/coating stripped off as the general opinion is that the paint overdamps the arm.

[Marco]

Absolutely, Keith - and experience (listening to the 'before and after' effects of paint removal on Regas) tells me that what you've written is indeed the case! ;)

Marco.

[Dominic Harper]

The paint certainly damps the arm tube, but it is a little more complicated than that. Look at the Audiomods arm for example. The paint is removed, but Jeff then uses another method to damp the arm tube by inserting baffles into the arm, plus drilling the arm. Both these help to control resonance within the arm tube.

[Marco]

The paint certainly damps the arm tube, but it is a little more complicated than that.

Indeed, Dom.

In the case of Rega tonearms, however, stripping the paint off and polishing the armtube to a mirror finish, then rewiring the whole arm with Cardas cable, totally transforms their sonic performance and removes the rather bland and tonally 'grey' sound that they have in stock form, which is the point I was making :)

Like I've said before, there's a reason why Rega themselves do this with the RB1000... If you know what you're doing, and own a RB250 with good bearings, you can get 99% of RB1000 performance, for a fraction of the price, by modifying the arm as I've outlined above ;)

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

I don't think that polishing it will make any difference what so ever, except to how it looks. While removing the paint certainly would ;)

If you can show me the differences (sonically) between an arm with paint removed & another which has been polished I'll be amazed :)

[Marco]

Hi Mark,

You're right. The polishing bit is purely for aesthetic reasons. If you've ever stripped the paint off of a Rega tonearm, and observed what the bare armtube looks like, you'll know why polishing it afterwards is necessary! :eek:

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Yes, I can only imagine... After all a really smooth armtube isn't going to be the best key for a layer of paint ;)

[chelsea]

Number 5.

[Marco]

Johnny, from Audio Origami, does it best... Gold plated? Suits you sir!


http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3204/goldrega2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/goldrega2.jpg/)


Or perhaps pure silver plated?


http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5894/silverarmtube.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/silverarmtube.jpg/)


Or chrome?


http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9719/chromeplatedregaarm.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/chromeplatedregaarm.jpg/)


I had the RB700 (on my P5) stripped and polished, and rewired as above, and it came back sounding like a totally different (and far superior) tonearm! :cool:

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Gold = bling :nono:

Silver = tarnishing & work to keep it clean :rolleyes:

The Chrome idea looks good Marco, Aluminium oxidises after all as well ;) Maybe Black Chrome would be the killer, all understatement but with a hint of polish :eyebrows:

[YNWaN]

To address your specific questions:



1, Would it help with rigidity by increasing the Mass?

No, increasing mass does not inherently increase the rigidity of a structure which, in the case of an arm, is likely to be defined by the bending modes of the arm-tube and the joints between the various components (headshell, arm-tube, bearing housing etc.). Wrap a piece of lead flashing around the arm-tube - this will certainly increase the mass, but it won't make it any more rigid.



2. Create increased instability due to the extra surface area and Mass?

Painting the arm doesn't significantly increase the surface area and even if it did, it would not impact upon arm stability.



3, Effect the magnetic signuture of the Metal in any way?

Definitely not.



4, Or do you think no difference that could be heard?
5, Am i barking:mental:?

There is paint and then there is paint - is it sprayed on or dipped, is it baked or air dried and, most importantly, how thick it is. The effect of paint on the sound of an arm has nothing to do with the factors you suggest, but is one of surface damping. However, it is worth noting that the damping effect will be pretty minimal and the main bending modes of the arm will not be effected.

[Artifolk]

Thank you Mark and everyone for clearing this up. :)

Now i can rest a little easier knowing Painted or Unpainted Arm tubes do contribute to side/ill effects etc.

I'm still thinking about Magnetic Signatures and the Earths magnetic Field, their relation to each other and whether this has any effect to what we hear. Far fetched or not? could this also be a contributing factor to why we hear differences in cables etc.? :scratch:

Sorry for being such a "dimwit" but that's what you get when your dearler/s does everything for you. Yes i have asked questions in the past but I've now decided its time for me to spread my wings(so to speak), hence the Techie and the silly/not so silly questions.

[Marco]

Now i can rest a little easier knowing Painted or Unpainted Arm tubes don't really contribute to any side/ill effects etc.


Erm, Charles, did you not read what I wrote about Rega tonearms? The same applies to those from any other manufacturer, unless the damping effect of the paint used has been factored into the equation in the tonearm's design (unlikely in most cases).

IME, painted armtubes of any description are, sonically, more often than not a bad idea. Therefore, most quality tonearm manufacturers recognise this fact and address it accordingly (i.e. by not applying any paint there in the first place) ;)

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Painting the arm does have a sonic effect, but then when it comes to turntables almost everything has a sonic impact (though the Earths gravitational field would be low on my list of issues to address/consider).

As it happens, my own choice of arm is not painted but anodised (as this hardens the surface this will also have a sonic impact), with a plated counterweight.

_____________________


Far fetched or not?

To be honest, I would say yes, very far fetched.

[sq225917]

Now anodising your arm tube would affect the stiffness and rigidity along with the resonant modes, but mass would be unaffected by all but the tiniest amount.

[Artifolk]

Sorry Marco, have amended text... Early morning brain :D

[Marco]

No worries, Charles :)


Now anodising your arm tube would affect the stiffness and rigidity along with the resonant modes, but mass would be unaffected by all but the tiniest amount.

Indeed. As far as Rega arms are concerned, however, the intention is simply to remove the damping effect of the black paint used, and in turn the detrimental sonic signature (dulling of the sound) it imparts on music reproduced.

In effect, it is done to remove a sonic restriction and thus allow one to hear more of what the existing design is capable of, rather than to fundamentally change how it behaves, in the way anodising armtubes would achieve.

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Now anodising your arm tube would affect the stiffness and rigidity along with the resonant modes, but mass would be unaffected by all but the tiniest amount.

Yes, indeed.

[Marco]

Yup, but these things should be factored into the equation during the initial design stage, rather than applied as a 'bandage' afterwards ;)

Marco.

[sq225917]

Absolutely.

[Audioman]

Yup, but these things should be factored into the equation during the initial design stage, rather than applied as a 'bandage' afterwards ;)

Marco.

Rega obviously recognised the paint issue as it is removed on the RB1000 arm. An OEM version can be had for £750 which begs the question why waste time and money on the more expensive aftermarket mods?

I'm sure paint has a relatively minor effect on sound in the grand scheme of things, arm tube design, bearings and wiring being more important. I think those upgrading Regas would do well to await the introduction of their new arm tube across the range as already used in the RB303.

[Rare Bird]

As it happens, my own choice of arm is not painted but anodised (as this hardens the surface this will also have a sonic impact), with a plated counterweight.



Just wafting though all the Bull on this thread i agree with you mark the only finish i consider would be Aluminium oxide, also protecting the aluminium from corrosion

[sq225917]

Well that's pretty fortunate because if you have an unfinished aluminium tube you are going to get aluminium oxide whether you like it or not. ;-)

[Marco]

Just wafting though all the Bull on this thread...

Such as? :)

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

I aint gonna argue mate, it's all just very entertaining for me, but i will go get my earholes checked see if there's something wrang, who knows i might have had an underlying problem the last 30 years, but i'm pretty sure their oki-doki :eyebrows:

[Audioman]

Let's be realistic. The arm finish (paint or otherwise) is to make appearance acceptable and prevent corrosion. I'd like to see the scientific evidence that suggests a thin layer of paint or chrome has a profound effect on SQ.

[YNWaN]

Just wafting though all the Bull on this thread i agree with you mark the only finish i consider would be Aluminium oxide, also protecting the aluminium from corrosion

Actually, I'm not suggesting that the only finish worth considering is an anodised one - I'm just saying my own arm is anodised; I've no problem with a painted or self coloured finish.
___________

Plating the arm will definitely increase the mass though.

[Marco]

I aint gonna argue mate, it's all just very entertaining for me, but i will go get my earholes checked see if there's something wrang, who knows i might have had an underlying problem the last 30 years, but i'm pretty sure their oki-doki :eyebrows:

Why should there be anything wrong with your ears, dude? :scratch:

There's nothing wrong with mine either.

You hear what you hear, and I hear what I hear - it's as simple as that. None of it is "bull" - it is simply the result of our valid experiences. And if you've stripped, polished and rewired a Rega tonearm, using much better internal and external cable than the merely ok stuff that's supplied as standard (obviously to keep costs down), and heard no difference, then so be it.

I, however, when I did it, heard a very marked sonic improvement, as what I disliked about the sound of Rega tonearms (a dark and rather 'opaque' quality to their musical presentation) was almost totally cured, so therefore one can only conclude that the culprits were the painted armtube and/or the old cable, as nothing else had been changed.

Paint aside, I can't believe you think that rewiring a tonearm with better cable doesn't make any difference?? :eek:

Of course it's difficult to ascertain the effect of both the rewiring and removal of paint individually, but I know of people (whose ears I trust) who have simply stripped the paint off of the arm and polished it (the latter simply to make it look nice), and reported a significant sonic improvement, so it appears that the damping of the armtube with paint is a contributory negative sonic factor.

Indeed, Rega themselves acknowledge this, which is why the RB1000 isn't painted. Therefore, it's difficult to dispute the efficacy of that particular modification.

Anyway, the reason that the basic Rega tonearms are painted in the first place is to provide the most professional finish possible within the available design budget, ditto with the supplied internal and external cable, in terms of ensuring adequately good sonic performance. People buy the basic Rega tonearms because there isn't much choice in new tonearms at their price point, and they're pretty good value for money. But it doesn't mean that they can't be improved with some judicious modifications! ;)

Marco.

[sq225917]

Spot on Marco, they paint em to hide the imperfections, the better castings become RB1000's.

When you think of the noise contribution that comes from the tonearm, either reflected energy from the cart that travels down the arm and reflects back from wherever, arm collar, bearing bridge, armboard etc etc, or energy travelling up from the deck and through the arm to the cart, or even energy in the air in the form of soundwaves hitting the arm; it strikes me that the coating on this thin tube of metal is quite likely to affect the pattern/distribution of this energy that ends up back at the cart out of phase with the original signal.

These are highly tuned bits of thin metal of remarkably low mass in most instances, a decent spray of textured 2 pack, (Kuzma S) is very likely to change the signature, probably more so than the very thin coating on a Rega arm, but they will all have an effect. Try spray painting a thin sheet of metal to see what effect this has. I know my car is considerably quieter since the addition of a spray on visco-elastic paint to the interior body panels. Given the material weights, and amplitudes and sensitivities to energy is it really that different to a cart/tonearm tube?

I'd like to see some real science to show numbers, but I can hear the effects.

[Marco]

Indeed, and although some forms of damping can be sonically beneficial, that appears not to be the case with painting the armtubes on Rega tonearms; certainly via the method currently employed.

Marco.

[Darren]

Just to pick up on Andre's point ( I think). There are two things that put me off having my RB 250 modded or rewired. Firstly, I struggle to hear substantial worthwhile differences when I substitute interconnects in either of my systems, so I doubt my ability to hear 'value' in a tonearm rewire and secondly I'm not sure any package of mods could be as comprehensive as buying the next model up in the range or, say, the Michell Teckno arm.

[Marco]

Hi Darren,

Fair enough, matey. However, of all the cable upgrades one can carry out, the results with tonearm rewiring tend to be most significant, simply because you're upgrading right at the source of the signal, as opposed to further down the chain on a T/T, with interconnect cables.

Also, the analogue signal from a phono cartridge is extremely 'delicate' (especially so in the case of a low-output MC design) and thus easily corrupted by whatever cable is used to transfer the signal to the point where it is connected for amplification to a preamp or phono stage. Therefore, the effect of upgrading cables here can be very profound, in a way which perhaps you haven't heard with other cable upgrades you've carried out.

As to whether rewiring and/or stripping and polishing your RB250 would provide as fundamental an improvement as changing, for example, to a Michell Tecnoarm, I'm not sure, but I suspect that the sonic advantages of both would be significant, if however slightly different. Only YOUR ears can decide that one! :cool:

Marco.

[Darren]

Hi Marco,
Mmm.... Yes, everything you say makes sense. Many thanks for following up for me.:kiss::lol:

[Darren]

Hows Wire esculate from paint?


Huh?:scratch:

[Marco]

Perhaps Andre thought we were just talking about paint? Whereas what we were talking about, was the effect of both removing paint from armtubes and rewiring the tonearms, too! :)

Marco.

[Artifolk]

Without asking questions you don't get answers.
On the outset of this thread i never envisaged the amount of information I'd receive. This thread has open my eyes so much, opened up a lot of new questions to.

[sq225917]

I'm not a huge believer in cable swaps, in fact spending on interconnects is the last thing i would do, but I've been happy with all the tonearm wire upgrades/swaps I've done.

[DSJR]

I should add that the Rega RB series arms are not resonant as other ally tube tonearms are and in fact are pretty textbook in this respect.. I suspect that the better finish of the dearer models is more to do with expensive finishing to justify the price asked as much as anything else..

The best I've ever heard an RB arm is when it was fitted into a collet type of mount, allowing height adjustment too. I'd NEVER heard a stock RB300 sing so freely, with no "constriction" whatsoever. Long time ago now and Rega have changed the way their tonearms are mounted too, so I can't say how different an RB301 is, let alone the new models coming through now.

[Alex_UK]

Charles - the only "silly" question is the one you wish you'd asked but didn't - and any questions will I am sure be treated respectfully by the rest of the community - so please don't ever be afraid to ask - we ALL learn something along the way with these type of threads I can assure you! :)

[Artifolk]

Thanks, now i can wipe the sweat from my forehead :D