View Full Version : Amplifier advice for new Harbeth Compact 7s
Ah, I've been breaking in my new Harbeth 7s - wonderful speakers - and thought I'd ask what amplifiers might be recommended for them.
I'm aware of Harbeth's official ("anything that works to spec") approach, so I'm digging for a little more insight.
I'm currently running them on Class A 25 watt KT88 monos from Cary, with a Conrad-Johnson preamp. Common US components, these are geared toward an overall warm sound, but I think I'd like to try something with a little more grip on the bass as well as more outright power. I recognize that I might need to give up a bit of that warmth if I go to a solid state amp.
I'm also considering adding an REL sub because I'm missing just a bit too much bass for those Bruckner blockbusters.
Appreciate any thoughts. The budget would be 1-3000 GBP, new or used. I'd prefer an integrated amp but am open to just a power amp that would mate well with my Conrad Johnson tube preamp.
jandl100
27-12-2011, 08:36
I'm aware of Harbeth's official ("anything that works to spec") approach, so I'm digging for a little more insight.
Good thinking!
All well-designed amps used within spec do NOT sound the same! ;)
I recognize that I might need to give up a bit of that warmth if I go to a solid state amp.
Well, not really. You can get warm ss amps and razor-sharp tube amps.
But your CJ pre-amp is likely to be imparting a nice warm glow!
I've heard Harbeth speakers sound very fine with PrimaLuna valve amps - they have a nicely neutral sound, with good bass control and excellent imaging - just avoid using el34 toobs as other types will give a more lively and engaging sound, imo.
I'm not familiar with your Cary power amps, so I don't really know if a PL amp would improve on things for you. But I've owned a Cary SET (572se) amps and they had excellent bass!
My suspicion is that you may be right, and you may have to give up the warm glow of your CJ pre in order to get much improvement in the bass.
Tony Lonorgan would disagree with the "Prima Luna amps and Harbeths working well together" sentiment quite strongly I think Jerry...
Before an expensive amp upgrade, I'd make sure the Compact 7's are properly supported. get the stands wrong, and the bass sounds thuddy and tubby - very un-natural (I believe the current models have had extra bracing in the boxes to deal with this slight idiosyncrasy). My recommendation from personal experience is for the Something Solid stands, which support the boxes at each bottom corner and lets then flex properly. These stands are available from Signals Ipswich, Deco Audio Aylesbury and HiFi dave, who sells both brands.
Compact 7's are not ruthlessly analytical and if the amp is a transformer coupled valve jobbie with high output impedance and therefore little to no bass control, the excess bloat may be tamed by speaker position changes. For your budget, you could try to look out for a vintage Radford, although prices are high and if not serviced, it'll need one. Radford's output transformers were the best in the business back then and because the output impedance is low (according to a recent test on STA15's in HFN), the damping factor will be nigh on (some) solid state levels.
As for new amps, accusations of shilling (Mr Dunn just won't leave me alone) prevent me from mentioning the usual suspects around a grand that sound SO good with all Harbeth models, but maybe hifi dave will be along to mention them for himself.
P.S. Another great used buy which I think Jerry liked too is the later Lab amp series from AVI. Low input impedance means careful choice of source equipment is necessary (only 10K or so which may prevent some classic line sources working at their best I think), but a very transparent and reliable product otherwise and all the control necessary for ported speakers in general..
hifi_dave
27-12-2011, 10:39
I use all manner of amps with the Harbeth range and get great results with all, so I wouldn't say the C7's are particularly difficult.
I am inclined to ask, why do you feel the need to change ? Do you have the correct stands for them, otherwise they will have a bit of bass bloom. Are they away from walls and corners ?
jandl100
27-12-2011, 11:45
Tony Lonorgan would disagree with the "Prima Luna amps and Harbeths working well together" sentiment quite strongly I think Jerry...
So what?
I've heard them. They do work well together, imho.
Who is Tony Lonorgan, anyway? - and why should I believe him rather than my own ears?
EDIT: ah, right - Google is my friend. The PFM geezer. I'm sure his pov is as valid as mine - but I'd be curious as to why he came to that conclusion.
I've only heard Harbeth 7ES3's with a couple of PL amps - the sound was a touch on the analytical side, but that suits many people, and the 3D imaging was nothing short of excellent, although individual images were a bit broadened. And there was no tendency to unpleasantly exaggerate the top end, which can be a problem with some Harbeths. The bass was deep and vibrant, with suitable system cabling, surprisingly so for such a small cabinet. What's not to like? :scratch:
P.S. Another great used buy which I think Jerry liked too is the later Lab amp series from AVI.
AVi Lab Series amps? Ooo, I don't think so, I'd be surprised if that was good synergy - they would exacerbate Harbeth's tendency toward the ultra-clean monitor sound side of the fence, I would imagine. Few people actually want that, ime.
Hey Jerry, if you think current Harbeths are ultra-clean "monitor" types, I shudder to think what you'd feel about modern active "proper" monitors. It may give you a chuckle at my expense that I've been battling with AVI's Ashley about this very thing, since on HDD, Harbeth is "the brand that shall not be named," because when it is, world war three breaks out against lovers of vintage nostalgic passively driven charm with "boom" for bass as against "clean, accurate, active" speakers using state of the art OEM drivers with a sub or two for bass extension...
I don't know which generation of Compact 7's these are, since there's at least three over the last sixteen or seventeen years or so, but the later ones are as sweet as a nut and with far tauter bass than originally. Because the crossover region is so seamless, I really have found them amp-friendly.
Have a look on their user group site, as so many of their far eastern clients use a huge assortment of valve amps with them and with great results too..
jandl100
27-12-2011, 14:03
Hey Jerry, if you think current Harbeths are ultra-clean "monitor" types, I shudder to think what you'd feel about modern active "proper" monitors..
Werll - actually I said they had a 'tendency' toward the ultra clean monitor sound. Meaning I thought they sat on that side of the fence.
But different Harbeth models have different treble presentations. I agree that the 7ES3 I heard are pretty smooth, but I've heard SHL5's (I think) that are screechy as hell and pretty much intolerable on decently recorded fare, imo.
And from what I have heard, Harbeth bass is a moveable feast - very dependent on ancilliaries and supports etc. I've heard bass from 7ES3 sound over-warm and waffly and also taut and controlled, depending on how they were fed.
hifi_dave
27-12-2011, 14:55
Werll - actually I said they had a 'tendency' toward the ultra clean monitor sound. Meaning I thought they sat on that side of the fence.
But different Harbeth models have different treble presentations. I agree that the 7ES3 I heard are pretty smooth, but I've heard SHL5's (I think) that are screechy as hell and pretty much intolerable on decently recorded fare, imo.
And from what I have heard, Harbeth bass is a moveable feast - very dependent on ancilliaries and supports etc. I've heard bass from 7ES3 sound over-warm and waffly and also taut and controlled, depending on how they were fed.
SHL5s 'screechy as hell' is that Harbeth you're talking about ? The only way you could provoke a Harbeth speaker into sounding anything like that, would be to drive them with a very bright system, where the speaker shows up what's in front.
I use Harbeth speakers every day and right across the range. I use them with Naim, Rega, EAR, Albarry, Puresound and Croft amps plus the occasional Leak, Radford and Quad vintage amps and I've never had anyone saying they are 'screechy as hell', or anything approaching that. The usual response is how relaxing they are.
At the other end of the spectrum they need good stands - Something Solid especially and they need to be away from walls. The same applies to any speaker with pretensions to supplying low frequencies. They are amongst the most unfussy and satisfactory speakers I have ever used.
Elephantears
27-12-2011, 15:11
They really are very sensitive to changes with amps, but at the same time work well with all sorts. Just to qualify the 'Tony L Primaluna' issue; he used a Primaluna for some time with C7's and liked it; it was only when he tried SHL5's that he had a serious attack of audiophilia nervosa and retreated to the womb of lovely old Tannoys. As I said many times on the Harbeth thread on pfm, I don't think his room was big enought for SHL5's. I didn't find mine was (17 x 11), but others have got them to fit nicely in similar sized rooms, so take that with a pinch of salt. There are just so many variables with these speakers that you have to try anything at home.
I have used my C7ES3 primarily with Naim 202/200/teddy, which works well. I got an itch for something different and have tried quite a few different amps of late. I really liked the Sonneteer integrateds, and the Croft separates. I didn't get on with the Croft power amps as well as the pre-amps, but I still might go back to Croft if I can get the right combination. I'm currently running some Unison Research Unico Pre/DM alongside the Naim. This is a tricky either-or for me for two main reasons;
1) Naim rolls of the bass and the highs; this is one reason I was looking for a change, but actually that roll of can be very helpful in a domestic setting. Harbeths can easily boom. With the Unico's I get much greater extension, but there are times when the bass is too much and the mids are recessed. This is a room specific issue.
2) The Unico Pre doesn't seem to get on with my phono stage (TE Microgroove Plus), whilst this was a very good match with my Naims.
The thing is that Harbeths are probably more revealing than warm, so every choice you make in the reproduction chain is significant.
Stick with the tubes, sort the stands and get a nice REL. the difference mine has made to the work system has to be heard to be appreciated. There is much deep,rythmic, dynamic bass.
On the other hand you may find that all they need is watts; speakers like watts and to the best of my knowledge they cant tell a solid state watt from a valve what. ;)
Reid Malenfant
27-12-2011, 15:40
:eyebrows: Can't you just tell that John is back :lol:
Good to see you about John :D
Awwww, sweet, did ya miss me mate?……….prolly the only one:eyebrows:
I hope you had a good un Mark. :)
jandl100
27-12-2011, 16:12
Just to qualify the 'Tony L Primaluna' issue; he used a Primaluna for some time with C7's and liked it
Aha! - so Tony L isn't deaf after all! :eyebrows:
... it was only when he tried SHL5's that he had a serious attack of audiophilia nervosa and retreated to the womb of lovely old Tannoys.
Treble issues with the SHL5 / PL combo by any chance? :whistle:
Sorry hifi-dave, but I am far from the only person I know of to have heard Harbeth models with screechy (OK, let's say over-enthusiastic) treble.
They really are not a warm and cosy pipe&slippers speaker firm, imo. They often get the tonal balance pretty much right, in my view. As you'd expect of a speaker brand in the BBC Tradition. Quite what happened in the SHL5 I don't know - maybe they were trying to sell to the pro crowd! ;)
I agree that the 7ES3 I heard are pretty smooth, but I've heard SHL5's (I think) that are screechy as hell
Hmmm, interesting comment? I'm not that qualified as I have only heard SHL5's with four different amps (all SS), but they have never been anywhere near 'screechy'. What they replaced were (Monitor Audio GR60's), but not these, no way.
In fact an ex-employee of MA who was not familiar with Harbeth's commented on how relaxed and non-fatiguing they were and that he could quite happily listen to them all day.
Just goes to show how one man's meat is another man's poison.
jandl100
27-12-2011, 16:54
Oops, sorry Tim! Your fave speakers, eh? :oops:
As you say, a lot of folks would consider MA speakers to be a fair bit on the bright side, too ... it's all relative, innit!
Peace & Good Will! :cool:
Elephantears
27-12-2011, 17:15
Treble issues with the SHL5 / PL combo by any chance? :whistle:
Sorry hifi-dave, but I am far from the only person I know of to have heard Harbeth models with screechy (OK, let's say over-enthusiastic) treble.
They really are not a warm and cosy pipe&slippers speaker firm, imo. They often get the tonal balance pretty much right, in my view. As you'd expect of a speaker brand in the BBC Tradition. Quite what happened in the SHL5 I don't know - maybe they were trying to sell to the pro crowd! ;)
It would be good if you could give some context for when you heard the 5's screech, because I assure you this is very room relative. The super-tweeter can be beamy in the wrong circumstances and the treble can be problematic, but if you get the positioning, room and ancilliaries matching well the treble is absolutely superb. Far better than the C7's or M30's at getting the high notes of a trumpet or piano, for example, with a much greater sense of air and space. But they really do need room space. And that goes for the bass as well; they are a terrible pain to get right, not only with the space behind and to the side, but the height. I believe that with perseverance they can be miraculous, but I must admit its generally been in dealer demo set-ups that I've heard that potential.
Oops, sorry Tim! Your fave speakers, eh? :oops
Not a problem, we all have differing views and desires - I just wanted to put forward the viewpoint from an owner (and a very happy one I might add ;)). TBH I have never heard anyone describe them as screechy and you wouldn't believe how many hours I scoured 'tinterweb' before buying them and not once had any person who either liked or disliked them described them as screechy before..... quite the opposite in fact from those that didn't care for the sound. The negative reports (when you could find one) said they were too relaxed for their tastes, preferring something more forward and dynamic. Now that viewpoint I can understand and the guy who bought my Monitor Audio's really didn't like them at all, but he had my teeth on edge with the MA's when he cranked them up playing some Paul Hardcastle :eek: He clearly liked a screechy sound....
But hey, each to their own and my SHL5's are MINE :lol:
Tony Lonorgan would disagree with the "Prima Luna amps and Harbeths working well together" sentiment quite strongly I think Jerry...
Before an expensive amp upgrade, I'd make sure the Compact 7's are properly supported. get the stands wrong, and the bass sounds thuddy and tubby - very un-natural (I believe the current models have had extra bracing in the boxes to deal with this slight idiosyncrasy). My recommendation from personal experience is for the Something Solid stands, which support the boxes at each bottom corner and lets then flex properly. These stands are available from Signals Ipswich, Deco Audio Aylesbury and HiFi dave, who sells both brands.
Compact 7's are not ruthlessly analytical and if the amp is a transformer coupled valve jobbie with high output impedance and therefore little to no bass control, the excess bloat may be tamed by speaker position changes. For your budget, you could try to look out for a vintage Radford, although prices are high and if not serviced, it'll need one. Radford's output transformers were the best in the business back then and because the output impedance is low (according to a recent test on STA15's in HFN), the damping factor will be nigh on (some) solid state levels.
As for new amps, accusations of shilling (Mr Dunn just won't leave me alone) prevent me from mentioning the usual suspects around a grand that sound SO good with all Harbeth models, but maybe hifi dave will be along to mention them for himself.
...
I'm in the States so I don't think I can get a Radford amp.
I've controlled for the stands and any room issues, so that's not my concern.
The bass is not bloaty or slow, but I'm not getting all that I've heard from these speakers in terms of bass performance.
Also, my amp is simply running out of steam on some of the complex orchestral music I listen to (on chamber and piano and rock it's perfect). I've heard these speakers on a big solid state home theater amp (Anthem) and the orchestral stuff is better on the big amp, although I'd like to avoid the solid state signature I hear on that particular amp.
I would love to hear your recommendation for the new amp, shilling or not!
Thanks
...
I'm not familiar with your Cary power amps, so I don't really know if a PL amp would improve on things for you. But I've owned a Cary SET (572se) amps and they had excellent bass!
My suspicion is that you may be right, and you may have to give up the warm glow of your CJ pre in order to get much improvement in the bass.[/QUOTE]
The CAD 50s are similar to the 572s, same chassis and transformer. I heard them side by side in about 2000 and thought the 572s were wonderful and somewhat similar to my amps.
I'm doing a little tube rolling in my preamp today to see if that helps
I use all manner of amps with the Harbeth range and get great results with all, so I wouldn't say the C7's are particularly difficult.
I am inclined to ask, why do you feel the need to change ? Do you have the correct stands for them, otherwise they will have a bit of bass bloom. Are they away from walls and corners ?
I don't think these are a difficult load at all.
There is no bass bloom, it is rather on the lean side.
I've tried them in a variety of rooms and placement locations, and with three different types of stands.
I have heard them produce better bass and handle orchestral music better with other amps (unfortunately I haven't liked other aspects of those other amps).
Elephantears
27-12-2011, 19:10
Also, my amp is simply running out of steam on some of the complex orchestral music I listen to (on chamber and piano and rock it's perfect). I've heard these speakers on a big solid state home theater amp (Anthem) and the orchestral stuff is better on the big amp, although I'd like to avoid the solid state signature I hear on that particular amp.
Here's the rub...Harbeths need plenty of power for large orchestral, but they love some nice valves. So without a huge budget where do we compromise; SS power without tube magic, or valves that can't quite cope with the big stuff?
In simple wattage terms, I think Alan Shaw is right in saying that about 50W will do fine most of the time, but 100W comes in handy for the most dynamic passages in orchestral music. I've found a 70W NAP200 is fine for orchestral, but the C7's really lap up the extra power of my 150W Unico DM. On the other hand, when I tried using two DM's in bridge mode, making an extraordinary 400W, I found this extra power to be superflous.
I have to admit that I'm giggling a little bit :lol: at the general tone of the answers, which are tending toward "are you sure it's not you?
or your room?
or your stands?
are you really sure it's not the stands?" :doh:
Please understand that I'm fine-tuning at this point, not correcting gross errors. I'm looking for that little bit of fatness to the french horns in the opening pages of the Bruckner 9th, I'm looking for the double basses to sit on the open fifth in the beginning of Also Sprach as the violins soar into the stratosphere; I'm looking for the bass foundation underlying the closing pages of Appalachian Spring, etc.
Let me put it this way: if I gave you my brand-new Harbeth Compact 7es-3s and awesome stands, and then I gave you up to 3000 pounds to buy an amp, what would you buy?
The winning answer will receive most of a pint of Guinness :cool: the next time I'm in the UK
Here's the rub...Harbeths need plenty of power for large orchestral, but they love some nice valves. So without a huge budget where do we compromise; SS power without tube magic, or valves that can't quite cope with the big stuff?
In simple wattage terms, I think Alan Shaw is right in saying that about 50W will do fine most of the time, but 100W comes in handy for the most dynamic passages in orchestral music. I've found a 70W NAP200 is fine for orchestral, but the C7's really lap up the extra power of my 150W Unico DM. On the other hand, when I tried using two DM's in bridge mode, making an extraordinary 400W, I found this extra power to be superflous.
Just pulled up a review of the Unico DM after reading your post, seems very promising.
Elephantears
27-12-2011, 19:55
Just pulled up a review of the Unico DM after reading your post, seems very promising.
Yes, but just to make things more complicated, it might even be a bit too powerful for Harbeths in a small room. I'm a bit torn between my Naim and the Unico amps at the moment, because whilst the Unicos are more revealing, extended and dynamic (and generally more of everything), the Naims have more like the right scale for a medium sized living room. They roll off the bass a bit, which is inaccurate but often useful. This roll off at the frequency extremes pushes things into the mids; again inaccurate, but an appealing srtategy which often focuses what's important. The Unicos are also very demanding of sources; you have to be sure they work in your set-up.
I've heard the Hard 5s with EAR 834 and the results are simply jaw dropping. Tricky call though, your budget opens a cavern of opportunity !
hifi_dave
28-12-2011, 10:29
Personally, I was trying to help you achieve what I know the C7ES is capable of without prompting you to spend thousands of Dollars/Pounds on an amp.
I use the Harbeth range every day (except Christmas day) and I know how good they can be but they do need good stands to provide solid, taut bass and they do need to be away from walls. Having made sure that is OK, you should be able to achieve the desired results without spending a fortune.
Here, I use Croft and Naim with particularly good results. I also get great sounds with Rega amps, Albarry, EAR, LFD and Puresound. I've also been getting nice sounds from vintage Crown amps. The speakers aren't fussy and are an easy load for the amp, so you don't need Kilowatts of power.
Being in the States you have access to many good amps at far better prices than we have here, so why not try a few using your pre and see what suits. I'd advise not to look at low powered valve/tube amps though.
I have to admit that I'm giggling a little bit :lol: at the general tone of the answers, which are tending toward "are you sure it's not you?
or your room?
or your stands?
are you really sure it's not the stands?" :doh:
Please understand that I'm fine-tuning at this point, not correcting gross errors. I'm looking for that little bit of fatness to the french horns in the opening pages of the Bruckner 9th, I'm looking for the double basses to sit on the open fifth in the beginning of Also Sprach as the violins soar into the stratosphere; I'm looking for the bass foundation underlying the closing pages of Appalachian Spring, etc.
Let me put it this way: if I gave you my brand-new Harbeth Compact 7es-3s and awesome stands, and then I gave you up to 3000 pounds to buy an amp, what would you buy?
The winning answer will receive most of a pint of Guinness :cool: the next time I'm in the UK
Elephantears
28-12-2011, 18:38
Here, I use Croft and Naim with particularly good results. I also get great sounds with Rega amps, Albarry, EAR, LFD and Puresound. I've also been getting nice sounds from vintage Crown amps. The speakers aren't fussy and are an easy load for the amp, so you don't need Kilowatts of power.
Dave, what kind of results have you had using a Croft pre with an alternative power amp? We had reports here of the Croft pre working well with the Albarry monoblocks, which is an intriguing combination, but a bit expensive. Can you suggest what non-Croft power amps might work well with the Micro 25R for Compact 7's. Following the OP's search for something valve-like but with enought power for the big orchestral transients.
hifi_dave
28-12-2011, 20:26
Well, over the years, there's not much I haven't used Croft pre's with - Krell, Audio Research, Levinson, EAR, Naim, Quad, Radford, Leak, Puresound, LFD, etc etc. Lately, I have been getting very good results with the Albarry mono's and of course, Croft's own excellent power-amps.
Don't forget vintage Crown D Series amps as well :D
If the OP hasn't done this already, a good look on the Harbeth site and the user group would be a good idea, as along with personal subjective opinions in one area, there are research papers and articles on the speakers themselves, with advice on how and where to use them.
By the way, the SHL5 has an extra half to one octave of bass extension, but it does need careful siting away from walls for the bass not to overshadow the lovely midrange it has. Just my thoughts...
Personally, I was trying to help you achieve what I know the C7ES is capable of without prompting you to spend thousands of Dollars/Pounds on an amp.
I use the Harbeth range every day (except Christmas day) and I know how good they can be but they do need good stands to provide solid, taut bass and they do need to be away from walls. Having made sure that is OK, you should be able to achieve the desired results without spending a fortune.
Here, I use Croft and Naim with particularly good results. I also get great sounds with Rega amps, Albarry, EAR, LFD and Puresound. I've also been getting nice sounds from vintage Crown amps. The speakers aren't fussy and are an easy load for the amp, so you don't need Kilowatts of power.
Being in the States you have access to many good amps at far better prices than we have here, so why not try a few using your pre and see what suits. I'd advise not to look at low powered valve/tube amps though.
Oh, I appreciate the advice, I just was chuckling a little bit.
I'm running them with a loaner Naim XS right now and getting more of the sound that I'd like.
Going to try the LFD next if I can arrange a loaner unit.
l use four different amps with my Compact 7ES2s, a Class A Jungson JA 88D, the Fabled Mini-T, Muse M50 25W T-amp and an olden but golden Lynwood Emerald intergrated, and all sound superb but in different ways, the Harbs are relatively unfussy of electronics,l use an old SONY CD player that is on its last legs and this stills sounds good, you can definately tell what amp you are using at the time, but the Harbs are quite forgiving, even in my 11f x 12f room they sound awesome, you really would have to get it badly wrong to get a bad sound from these speakers( the above refers to my system and room), hope this helps:)
hifi_dave
31-12-2011, 09:57
I have read posts, mainly on other forums, that Harbeth are difficult speakers but they most definitely are not.
As very accurate and transparent speakers, they do show what's in front of them but they aren't picky at all. They can be driven well by all manner of amps as I have proven to myself by using everything from Leak Stereo 20, Quad II and Radford STA 15 to modern day amps like the Albarry, Naim,Croft, EAR, LFD and the wonderful little Rega Brio R.
As with all other speakers they do need a bit of care to use good stands of the correct height and to be sited a bit away from walls, other than that, just plonk and enjoy.
Thanks everyone.
Currently auditioning a Naim XS integrated, and I am now hearing a bit of that plummy bass that others have mentioned. Not unpleasant.
Would love to find a Croft in the States, as several have mentioned that.
I'll be checking out the LFD IV and the Luxman integrateds within the next week.
The better current Naim integrateds have a meaty bass, but the treble reproduction pales when compared to other good integrateds IMO. There's a whole world of delicacy and timbre you haven't heard yet methinks.
Aha! - so Tony L isn't deaf after all! :eyebrows:
Treble issues with the SHL5 / PL combo by any chance? :whistle:
Sorry hifi-dave, but I am far from the only person I know of to have heard Harbeth models with screechy (OK, let's say over-enthusiastic) treble.
They really are not a warm and cosy pipe&slippers speaker firm, imo. They often get the tonal balance pretty much right, in my view. As you'd expect of a speaker brand in the BBC Tradition. Quite what happened in the SHL5 I don't know - maybe they were trying to sell to the pro crowd! ;)
As i visited Tony when he had the PL/HL5 combo and took along some alternative amplifiers perhaps i could clarify.
I heard his PL/C7ES pairing and liked it, plus I also owned a pair for several months. No particular issues other than the usual ones which afflict nearly all loudspeakers with a crossover between large mid unit and 1" dome tweeter.
The same amplifier on the HL5 sounded oddly out of focus and phasey in the crossover range - not bright - just not as clean and seamless as one might expect.
A SS Quad 306 made the situation much better in that area, but didn't go far enough and on balance Tony decided to return to large Tannoys.
On the PL amplifiers, they have high output impedance and they will alter the sound of most loudspeakers where the impedance becomes reactive, which surprise surpriser in around the crossover points and around the system LF resonance. If you doubt this, shove a measurement mic in front and see for yourself what changing amplifier source impedance does to the response.
So, in conclusion the PL changes the sound of the Harbeth away from that intended by the designer. If you like that effect - and it is demonstrably 'effect' - that's marvellous.
if you want the Harbeth to sound as Mr Shaw intended you need a clean amplifier with low output impedance. Harbeth use Quad but you could substitute many others.
Dave is a Harbeth dealer and could I'm sure recommend something.
Rob
Elephantears
01-01-2012, 17:18
Rob, you've actually clarified Tony's Harbeth experience more than we ever did on the long Harbeth thread at the time, so thanks for that. Personally I've not heard the crossover issue that he was so plagued by, but it may be I'm just not trained to hear it. He had a particular issue with siblilance, and I certainly hear that more on Harbeths, but its massively dependent on recording and source; I feel they are just very revealing in that respect.
Rob, I've personally heard the pair of SHL5's under discussion and in their defense, I really don't think it was they causing the problem, unless their bass characteristics and Tony's room just didn't get on, along with any possible amp mismatch..
In Tony's defense too, the Tannoys I believe he has, were designed for amps with higher than normal (these days) output impedance and these would be a much beter match to his amp I feel (is this borne out on the listening Rob?)
Rob, I've personally heard the pair of SHL5's under discussion and in their defense, I really don't think it was they causing the problem, unless their bass characteristics and Tony's room just didn't get on, along with any possible amp mismatch..
In Tony's defense too, the Tannoys I believe he has, were designed for amps with higher than normal (these days) output impedance and these would be a much beter match to his amp I feel (is this borne out on the listening Rob?)
Hi Dave,
No problem with the bass that I can recall, just a slightly diffuse and out of focus effect around the crossover, which got better with the Quad amp indicating an impedance issue, but it didn't totally cure it over the two days I was up at Tony's having a listen. Different room and all that but I don't get that effect with my Rogers 3/6. Tony is visiting me next week so will be interesting to see what he makes of the 3/6.
Of the two Harbeths I've heard I seem to prefer the C7.
On the PL, yes it works very well with the Tannoys.
That sort of amp will be quite chameleon-like depending on the load, and the reactance of the load will be more important than the nominal impedance figure.
The effect I'm describing is surprisingly common where you cross a largish bass/mid to a small tweeter. There are many problems with doing this, but mainly there is a compromise to be made if you want to keep an even power response around the crossover point. Basically, a large mid will be getting very directive as you approach crossover, so power response falls away, while the tweeter is doing the opposite and spraying far and wide. Your task, should you wish to accept it, is to seamlessly marry the two :)
Flat on axis response is easy, but it falls to pieces off axis.
The solution is either a much smaller mid and/or a larger tweeter radiating area - then you can knit them more easily because the power response is naturally very similar at crossover, and you can also cross at a lower frequency than possible with a small dome.
Probably needs a thread to itself that one :)
Happy new year.
Rob
Reid Malenfant
01-01-2012, 22:03
The effect I'm describing is surprisingly common where you cross a largish bass/mid to a small tweeter. There are many problems with doing this, but mainly there is a compromise to be made if you want to keep an even power response around the crossover point. Basically, a large mid will be getting very directive as you approach crossover, so power response falls away, while the tweeter is doing the opposite and spraying far and wide. Your task, should you wish to accept it, is to seamlessly marry the two :)
Flat on axis response is easy, but it falls to pieces off axis.
The solution is either a much smaller mid and/or a larger tweeter radiating area - then you can knit them more easily because the power response is naturally very similar at crossover.
Probably needs a thread to itself that one :)
Happy new year.
Rob
You know your onions :) Happy new year to you to! :)
Elephantears
03-01-2012, 08:15
This is a very interesting analysis from Rob. However I still feel that what you are defining as an intrinsic problem with the SHL5 is ultimately room related. The major flaw with Harbeths, to my mind, is their somewhat disingenuous marketing; they repeatedly make the claim that these large boxey boxes will suit any medium sized living room just fine because Alan Shaw designed the C7's in a little 11 x 11 room on IKEA stools.
I don't hear any of these anxieties about crossovers, boomy bass and beamy tweeters amongst North American users, since they usually have enough space to accommodate large monitors. The Canadian distributor and dealer, Planet of Sound, is very good at recommending which Harbeth will fit in what size of room and offers some kind of acoustic analysis for his customers.
To conclude, Rob, can I recommend that you do a bit of industrial espionage one day and sneak in to a dealer for a demo of some SHL5s that have been set up in optimum conditions, with plenty of space around them? As an example, KJWest One don't have the best room, but its big enough and they can set up a pair of SHL5's nicely. Or just find an owner who has a really big room, rather than take your experience at Tony's place as conclusive. At the risk of repeating myself here and on pfm, Tony's room was not big enough for 5's. The Canadian dealer I have mentioned would have told him that and sold him C7's.
There are dealers up north too, not just KJ and hifi dave...
By the way, before listening, which he spends many hours doing, Alan used to take his prototypes into the woods on a quiet still day to measure them. I believe he now has a rather impressive converted barn, quiet and away from the factory and with high vaulted ceiling, where he can work in peace. I also understand that he travels the world extensively, visiting his distributors and listens to what they tell him, as well as spreading his word.
I think that many of us in the UK are shafted by the rather small rooms we live in, which seem to give bass problems. One way of dealing with this is to use a small speaker with peaked up midrange and no real bass extension, that way, allowing close to wall use and no deep bass to upset our listening rooms. Just my thoughts..
Elephantears
03-01-2012, 09:51
There are dealers up north too, not just KJ and hifi dave...
I think that many of us in the UK are shafted by the rather small rooms we live in, which seem to give bass problems.
I meant to mention Audio Republic in Leeds, since it was Andrew who got me interested in Harbeths in the first place. He is a great enthusiast and knows how to match them. I mentioned KJW1 and Planet of Sound (Ottawa) because these were the first places I actually heard SHL5's with space to breathe.
You're spot on about our UK speaker issues. When I see the amount of forum swapping about of speakers, particularly with Harbeth users, I just imagine annoyingly shaped Victorian terrace living rooms.
hifi_dave
03-01-2012, 10:20
Rob hasn't, to my knowledge, pointed out any problems with the bass, just compatability problems with the PL further up the range.
I had several conversations with Tony at that time and he was happy with the overall sound in his room but wasn't happy with a 'brightness,' in the crossover region. This was easily ironed out by substituting the Quad amp but Tony wasn't keen on the Quad sound.
The problem was with the PL amp and not the SHL5's.
BTW, Rob is welcome here, there is no need to sneak around.
Elephantears
03-01-2012, 11:05
Rob hasn't, to my knowledge, pointed out any problems with the bass, just compatability problems with the PL further up the range.
If you're referring to my comments, I know what Rob said, but I was including all the standard room related issues people have with Harbeths. Surely you've encountered some of these issues ? I just think we need a proper recognition that whilst these speakers can generally be integrated fairly well in a lot of houses, and with many different amps, there are frequently occurring difficulties. They aren't integral to the speaker, they are contextual, but that makes it all the more necessary for these discussions to be very detailed. Really we could do with some room diagrams from different users, but I don't know how you would put those up on a forum. I don't think either Rob's argument (that there is an integral problem in the crossover region of the 5's) or Dave's approach (they work just fine with all sorts of amps and in all sorts of rooms) is contextual enough.
hifi_dave
03-01-2012, 16:23
I'm not sure what you are getting at ? Where are all these 'room related issues' and the people that have them ??
I have demonstrated, used and installed many Harbeth speakers in the average British sitting room and, to date, haven't had any problems, just contented customers.
Furthermore, if there were problems, surely some of the thousands of Harbeth customers throughout the World would be moaning on the Harbeth and other forums ?
Well if I can add my 2 penneth worth, I have SHL5's and use them in a room that's 11' x 17', so hardly big. The speakers are 2' from the side wall, 18" from the rear wall and about 6' apart - I have no issues at all, in fact they sound gorgeous and at the moment are supported on Atacama stands, so not ones that are commonly recommend like Something Solids or Skylan. This will be addressed once I stop moving and find a permanent home. I have also heard 7's in the same room and the 5's for my tastes are by far the superior speaker. The only thing I would add is that I don't listen at bone crushing levels and the volume control on my Brio-R rarely goes much beyond 9 - 10 o'clock.
I have never experienced anything close to what has been described in this thread and believe you me I did extensive research before purchasing them, by reading reports from Harbeth owners and didn't read anything similar from them either. So the comments being made IME are contradictory to those from other (contented) Harbeth owners. I also take a lot more credence from reports made by people that own and live with something, over a magazine review or 'my mate had a demo and said so and so'.
Harbeth's largest market as far as I'm aware is Asia and in particular Japan, where my room size would be considered grandiose compared to the average living space there. So they can it seems work in smaller rooms than mine and Harbeth ship to Japan by the container load!
So quite frankly you have me baffled as none of this is adding up to what my personal experiences are as an owner and I might add an extremely satisfied one. These speakers are not going anywhere ever as far as I'm concerned and the only thing that would change that is when I move to live with my father as his room is smaller, but I won't know until I try them there. If they should be out of place they will be swapped for 7's.
Now I don't consider myself to be any sort of an authority on Harbeth speakers, or what they match well with and have yet to hear them paired with a valve amp, but I think they are the best sounding speakers I have ever heard and I have tried them with 4 different SS amps. To go a little further, my best friend was an MD for Monitor Audio until recently and has spent a large part of his life listening to loudspeakers and ran their manufacturing facility in China. He was bowled over by how good they sounded in my room compared to a pair of MA GR60's which they replaced. He loves them and when he returns to the UK intends to buy some 5's, unless MA come up with something better between now and then. And that is some achievement as both him and his wife really dislike the look of them, but cannot ignore how good they sound (in their opinion). Come to think of it, I'm not totally enamoured by their look either, but I don't listen with my eyes. I'm not that fussed by the new Rega styling too, but boy the Brio-R is a giant killer of a little amp so who cares what it looks like, they sure make me grin and that's all that matters in my book :)
So I just wanted to add a little balance to the thread from someone who lives with them day in day out. I cannot say how content I am with the sound of my Harbeth's and wouldn't consider them to have 'room related issues' anymore than other large loudspeakers, unless of course I struck lucky in my room. I also listen to them for hours on end, which is something I have never done before, they are the most un-fatiguing speaker I have owned, which is also a comment made by my mate.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/harbeth1-1.jpg
Elephantears
03-01-2012, 19:12
I live with them day in day out too and enjoy them. I'm not sure why anything I've said is so divisive, but perhaps its not my comments you are talking about. All I was suggesting was that we take another perspective; neither Rob's nor Dave's, which admits that these speakers need a bit of care and attention about how they work in a room; they aren't throw in and listen speakers. I can't see why that should get anyone riled, but I'll bow out here.
A bit more flesh on the bones might help.
There are three issues at play here - the intrinsic characteristic of the loudspeaker system, the effect of the amplifier driving them and certain aspects of overall performance that are absolutely critical to the individual listener.
When I heard Tony's pair of SLH5s, they sounded rather diffuse and odd around the crossover region, a mix of being mildly sucked-out and also qualitatively a bit odd. Clean 'ssss' sibilance sounding like 'shhh' is the most obvious description that comes to mind.
I thought the C7ES better in this respect.
Bass was fine, as was overall balance - it was just that narrow spot in the middle that caused some head scratching. One side effect of this was a certain hollowness on vocals - and we even used Harbeth's own voice test recording. The issues heard were not apparent using Senheiser HD600s (driven via the PL), nor do I hear it on Rogers 3/6 or Quad ESL63 that I have here.
I have to conclude, as did Tony after trying a number of different amplifiers, that the SLH5 was doing something that neither of us would regard as acceptable in long term use - for us.
On amps and the PL in particular, this made the effect worse than when using SS amplifiers and that will likely be for the technical reasons already mentioned. Essentially, it will have been slightly modifying the response in the crossover region and was mildly compounding but not causing the problem. To back this up we both preferred the result when using the 4 ohm tap, which has lower output impedance.
As for hearing another pair, I'd love to as I really don't want this to read as a 'lets bash Harbeth' post' - I like what they do generally, really like the C7 and think the little P3 is waaay better than those horrid 3/5a things. Just wasn't totally struck on the 5 and neither was Tony.
Something else to consider is that we both use loudspeakers which are particularly good in the area highlighted. Tony uses dual concentric Tannoys and I have ESL63s in daily use. Both tend to make you very critical of performance in the crossover region because both of those manufacturers have gone to exceptional lengths to optimise performance in that area, albeit in different ways.
Hopefully that fills in a few gaps :)
Rob
I live with them day in day out too and enjoy them. I'm not sure why anything I've said is so divisive, but perhaps its not my comments you are talking about. All I was suggesting was that we take another perspective; neither Rob's nor Dave's, which admits that these speakers need a bit of care and attention about how they work in a room; they aren't throw in and listen speakers. I can't see why that should get anyone riled, but I'll bow out here.
I think the question is 'who says so', it's fine to express something if you have first hand knowledge and evidence to back it up, but anything else is just hearsay and not something I think AoS supports? It's certainly not something I would advocate.
Elephantears
03-01-2012, 19:51
I think the question is 'who says so', it's fine to express something if you have first hand knowledge and evidence to back it up, but anything else is just hearsay and not something I think AoS supports? It's certainly not something I would advocate.
As I said, I use Harbeths day in day out. I think you are looking for an argument where there is no need for one here. Anything I say is from first hand experience; I've posted in detail about my experience with various amps on Harbeths on several threads recently, so I don't see the point of your negative comment. If you read back on the thread you'll see that I was defending Harbeths against some of Rob's comments. Enjoy you 5's and thanks for the details about your room.
No argument here Andrew, I just wanted to add a bit of balance from a 'non-trade' private owner perspective ;)
Now I'm off to deal with Rufus Wainwright
:cool:
I was given a pair of LS5/9's not long ago. I heard this particular pair in four locations and, quality of sound aside, the tonal balance changed out of all recognition. In an optimum location on high stands away from walls, they sounded stark and lean (AVI ADM lovers would appreciate this balance I think :)), at home on the Spendor 12" stands, they sounded thick, ploddy and with a "quack" in the upper mid. Up in the office on the desktop, they were big-n-beefy but so involving to listen to and lastly, in their current storage home, they sounded well balanced and lively, the Harbeth M30's (their drop-in replacement) sounding similar but smoother in the upper mid-crossover region.
My conclusion is really that the room is the final arbiter as long as the manufacturer does his bit to make the speakers as consistent as possible..
Reid Malenfant
03-01-2012, 21:07
My conclusion is really that the room is the final arbiter as long as the manufacturer does his bit to make the speakers as consistent as possible..
Absolutely spot on, some manufacturers even design speakers to work well in English rooms :eyebrows: The Celestion SL6 springs to mind, designed to roll off below 60Hz but with the port assistance (out the back) it has a reasonably flat response to about 40Hz in room, IE an average English room.
You'll always get positioning problems with absolutely any speakers that can reproduce reasonably flat bass to frequencies below the lowest that the room modes allow. It's frequencies above the lowest room mode that prove problematical though as standing waves can mess things up, below that there can be no standing waves! What just about everyone fails to realise is that below the lowest room mode frequency the bass is clean. I'm fed up of nutters saying that it's inaudible below the lowest room mode, is it f*ck, it relies on pressure at low frequencies. You know, the bass cone pumps in & out & literally effects the atmospheric pressure in the room, not some wavelength that won't fit :D
Stick your head inside a speaker doing 16Hz at 100W (assuming 86Db/W/1M) or so & tell me that you don't turn the volume down as you'd damage your ears.
Honestly, saying a speaker can't go incredibly deep even in a small room is complete cobblers, it's like saying you couldn't hear 100Hz inside of a speaker with any dimension less than 82.5cm :rfl:
E2A:- Just thought of the most obvious one of the lot. If speakers can't reproduce deep bass in a room because of it's dimensions then how come you can hear 20Hz with headphones? The ear canal is only so long & nowhere near 10M :rfl:
So, anyone running a Supernait on C7s? ...
hifi_dave
04-01-2012, 20:38
I have and the smaller Nait's on all the Harbeth range. They work well.
I have and the smaller Nait's on all the Harbeth range. They work well.
Any thoughts on a Supernait vs. an XS with a Flatcap XS?
I can't afford the Supernait AND an external power supply, but I can afford the Flatcap XS if I buy the XS integrated.
Appreciate your thoughts.
Elephantears
05-01-2012, 10:31
I run a 202/200/dual teddycap JJack; it does work well. I've been exploring all sorts of other options, but the itch I had was as much about room positioning as the amps themselves, and having switched around to a near-field monitor set-up with a wider distance between the speakers the Naims work very nicely. I recently bought some Unison Research amps which are cleaner, more extended, and more dynamic, but they don't gel with my vinyl set-up (I think it's my phono stage), so the Naims are back, at least for now, and I'm glad I didn't sell them because its reminded me how much I enjoy them, in spite of some limitations. I think the 202/200 sounds quite organic with the C7's; its about the right amount of power so it can do large scale orchestral when required. The lower bass and highs are rolled off, and this can lead to undue emphasis, but its actually quite a good compromise in the average domestic situation. A previous post about bass issues in average sized rooms was very pertinent here. (I should also qualify my previous post about 'room issues' and specify that any issues I have had have been specific not only to my room but my sources, and that I have made a lot of progress in sorting them out). There are endless and tedious debates on Supernait vs 202/200 on the forum that shall not be named. Perhaps Dave can add his opinion on which is best suited to C7's?
If you are thinking Naim-ways, do you have any chance of comparing, say, with the Croft range? I think they are potentially the best match I've heard, particularly if you can afford the 25R pre. I also think that if you are thinking of solid state integrated amps such as the Nait XS, I would highly recommend the Sonneteers (Alabaster and Orton). The Alabaster is a screaming bargain and the Orton is a bit special.
I run a 202/200/dual teddycap JJack; it does work well. I've been exploring all sorts of other options, but the itch I had was as much about room positioning as the amps themselves, and having switched around to a near-field monitor set-up with a wider distance between the speakers the Naims work very nicely. I recently bought some Unison Research amps which are cleaner, more extended, and more dynamic, but they don't gel with my vinyl set-up (I think it's my phono stage), so the Naims are back, at least for now, and I'm glad I didn't sell them because its reminded me how much I enjoy them, in spite of some limitations. I think the 202/200 sounds quite organic with the C7's; its about the right amount of power so it can do large scale orchestral when required. The lower bass and highs are rolled off, and this can lead to undue emphasis, but its actually quite a good compromise in the average domestic situation. A previous post about bass issues in average sized rooms was very pertinent here. (I should also qualify my previous post about 'room issues' and specify that any issues I have had have been specific not only to my room but my sources, and that I have made a lot of progress in sorting them out). There are endless and tedious debates on Supernait vs 202/200 on the forum that shall not be named. Perhaps Dave can add his opinion on which is best suited to C7's?
If you are thinking Naim-ways, do you have any chance of comparing, say, with the Croft range? I think they are potentially the best match I've heard, particularly if you can afford the 25R pre. I also think that if you are thinking of solid state integrated amps such as the Nait XS, I would highly recommend the Sonneteers (Alabaster and Orton). The Alabaster is a screaming bargain and the Orton is a bit special.
Thanks. I've seen an occasional Croft pop up in the States but not the others. In any case I'd probably then be buying without even a chance of a demo as those would not be local, and might only be available used. CORRECTION: I just found US dealers for both of these. The regulated power Crofts would be an astonishing $5600 US for the pre/power, the regular 7 would be $2800 for both. The Sonneteer would be $2800 for the Alabaster, which is within reach. No audition possible howerver.
I've been reading the Naim forum but the fights get in the way of the analysis.
If I keep this XS on demo any longer I'll probably be buying it....
I do have a massive demo planned for this weekend, including two Luxmans, two more Naim combos, a Perraux, and an LFD. Maybe an Ayre and Audio Research if there's time.
We shall see.
Elephantears
05-01-2012, 20:02
That sounds like a serious solo bake-off and I'd be fascinated to hear the results. Is it a perreaux 150i? I've heard this with harbeths at planet of sound in Canada and its excellent. However it's very expensive in the uk.
That sounds like a serious solo bake-off and I'd be fascinated to hear the results. Is it a perreaux 150i? I've heard this with harbeths at planet of sound in Canada and its excellent. However it's very expensive in the uk.
The Perreaux will be (I think) the 80i.
Out of this store audition I'll probably take home two finalists of contrasting takes.
I have to say that I'm intrigued by the Alabaster though, as the price is right, but I wouldn't have a chance to hear that one before I purchased.
I really like this Naim XS I've been auditioning now for a week. Quite possible that I end my search with the XS, but I'll have a bit of fun along the way,listening to other gear.
Let me put it this way: if I gave you my brand-new Harbeth Compact 7es-3s and awesome stands, and then I gave you up to 3000 pounds to buy an amp, what would you buy?
The winning answer will receive most of a pint of Guinness :cool: the next time I'm in the UK
A Luxman integrated amplifier!
Croft is better than Luxman, but not dressed as well. In the UK, we call it "all fur coat and no knickers..." :D
Hi Rob,
Do you know why Tony eventually settled on Tannoys rather than 'statics?
Please help me to understand the point about earphones producing low frequencies. I understand that low bass signals have substantial wavelengths, so, given that, how can these frequencies be reproduced in such a small space?
Hi Rob,
Do you know why Tony eventually settled on Tannoys rather than 'statics?
I think (well I know) that Tony holds the view that no single type of loudspeaker can do everything, so its simply a case of picking the compromise that best fits at the time, so perhaps 'settled' isn't the word. Sometimes that means running more than one system. I hold the same view.
I know he's heard 57s and 989s. I'll be playing some 63s when he visits next week (plus I have 57s here). Be interesting to see what he thinks.
Some loudspeakers are excellent in one or two areas and very competent overall, while others can have one stunning attribute but be quite poor in other areas. The latter group tend to be have the performance dictated by the music genre.
Rob
Elephantears
07-01-2012, 02:33
Hi Rob,
Do you know why Tony eventually settled on Tannoys rather than 'statics?
He thought that the electrostats he heard had no bass.
That's true - 57s literally have no low bass. That can be a deal breaker and again goes back to music tastes to some degree. I'd put the 57 into the 'stunning and poor' group for those with wide tastes in music.
I've often sat listening to them and thought that reproduction just doesn't get any better than this, only to change music and.... oh dear!
Rob
I think (well I know) that Tony holds the view that no single type of loudspeaker can do everything, so its simply a case of picking the compromise that best fits at the time, so perhaps 'settled' isn't the word. Sometimes that means running more than one system. I hold the same view.
As do I :)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
07-01-2012, 15:26
Please help me to understand the point about earphones producing low frequencies. I understand that low bass signals have substantial wavelengths, so, given that, how can these frequencies be reproduced in such a small space?
Pressure... The headphone diaphram obviously moves backwards & forwards which increases & decreases the air pressure between the diaphram & the eardrum causing it to vibrate in sympathy. Ok so the wavelength won't fit in the same space but air pressure variations take over.
I guess that's how come you can hear an explosion, after all the wavelength will be incredibly long as it's a one way expanding pressure wave outwards from the point of origin? :scratch:
Croft is better than Luxman, but not dressed as well. In the UK, we call it "all fur coat and no knickers..." :D
???????????????????? :scratch:
While I've heard good things about Croft, I have never heard anything like this?? :wow:
To each their own I suppose, although I think it would be important to have heard the gear in question before making such a bold statement.
In any case, I'm aware of many folks who are running Harbeth speakers with Luxman amplification and believe it to be the best match. :D
Good luck with your search JJack.
Then you need to stop listening with your eyes and listen with your ears and heart :) It's already been done and the expensive blingy modern Luxman came a very poor second I recall, although it was the integrated model I recall... :D In terms of physical "feel" there'll be absolutely no contest, as the far eastern product will easily beat the little UK contender and in straight forward measurements too I suspect.
You have what seems to be an expensive system, so a mere £1500 on a couple of plain UK hand made amps with glowing things within and little else isn't going to float ones boat the same. However, an overweight and over-complex amp is what killed the Japanese top end onslaught over in these parts first time round..
Just my current views, and I'm known to be a bit mad even in my saner moments, but maybe US region things like the Bottlehead stuff, if it's as giant killing as I suspect it may be, may show you where I'm coming from, even if there may not be enough power for the M40's, which have a fair old crossover to row along within them :)
???????????????????? :scratch:
While I've heard good things about Croft, I have never heard anything like this?? :wow:
To each their own I suppose, although I think it would be important to have heard the gear in question before making such a bold statement.
In any case, I'm aware of many folks who are running Harbeth speakers with Luxman amplification and believe it to be the best match. :D
Good luck with your search JJack.
Hmmmmmm, I'm listening to a Luxman 505u as I type these words, switching back and forth between that and a Naim Supernait.
Two very different sounds, but I think I could live with either of them for a long time. Frank Sinatra is currently leading the way with the Naim, but then I recall the Bach cello suites on the Luxman... it's good to have these kinds of "problems."
Also spent some quality time with a Luxman 550ax today.
As well as $30,000 worth of MBL driving Harbeth 40s. (Edit: I see you have the M40s - lucky man!)
Alas, the LFD was out on loan so I didn't get to hear that.
It's going to be a fun week demo-ing these two.
More to follow.
Then you need to stop listening with your eyes and listen with your ears and heart :) It's already been done and the expensive blingy modern Luxman came a very poor second I recall, although it was the integrated model I recall... :D In terms of physical "feel" there'll be absolutely no contest, as the far eastern product will easily beat the little UK contender and in straight forward measurements too I suspect.
You have what seems to be an expensive system, so a mere £1500 on a couple of plain UK hand made amps with glowing things within and little else isn't going to float ones boat the same. However, an overweight and over-complex amp is what killed the Japanese top end onslaught over in these parts first time round..
Just my current views, and I'm known to be a bit mad even in my saner moments, but maybe US region things like the Bottlehead stuff, if it's as giant killing as I suspect it may be, may show you where I'm coming from, even if there may not be enough power for the M40's, which have a fair old crossover to row along within them :)
I can't find a Croft to demo, but the Luxmans have something going on.
I would call the Luxman more of a throwback than "modern"; it's got a balance control, mono switch, old-fashioned power meters, headphone jack, etc. It's pretty much a circa 1970 receiver, with modern innards.
I'd have to say that I'd be pretty excited to hear anything that would be clearly better.
Also, the 1500 GBP amps cost $95 more than the Luxman on this side of the pond. (e.g., the Naim Supernait is the equivalent of 3300 GBP here, and the XS is 1800 GBP)
The Supernait is a throwback too, but I continue to maintain that a simple circuit, with the minimum of components (one valve taking the place of many transistors) can pay dividends to the sonics - and Glenn can do this using NO boutique bits at all...
The likes of Luxman and Accuphase do look the biz though and the fit, feel and finish of the casework is beyond excellent. Been there, done that back in the 70's though, and it's hairshirt for me these days :D
Elephantears
08-01-2012, 17:14
JJack its very hard to read your budget, since prices are so different either side of the Atlantic. Since you've mentioned Supernait it seems higher than before. Does that mean a Perraux 150i is feasible? Since you can't demo Croft or Sonneteer, that would be my pick, although I've never heard a Luxman.
What about the Croft Syntra that is for sale on this very forum? Would be a great match l reckon.:)
JJack its very hard to read your budget, since prices are so different either side of the Atlantic. Since you've mentioned Supernait it seems higher than before. Does that mean a Perraux 150i is feasible? Since you can't demo Croft or Sonneteer, that would be my pick, although I've never heard a Luxman.
My budget is the same, but I found a demo Supernait that wouldn't cost much more than an XS.
But I'd be willing to stretch my budget a little if I found something extraordinary.
The Supernait is a throwback too, but I continue to maintain that a simple circuit, with the minimum of components (one valve taking the place of many transistors) can pay dividends to the sonics - and Glenn can do this using NO boutique bits at all...
The likes of Luxman and Accuphase do look the biz though and the fit, feel and finish of the casework is beyond excellent. Been there, done that back in the 70's though, and it's hairshirt for me these days :D
Are you thinking of an all-valve integrated, or a hybrid?
I just left the all-valve world (Cary) so I wouldn't go all-valve. I'm done with replacing power tubes every time the seasons change. Tube preamp sections (I still own a Conrad Johnson tube preamp) are okay because they're less fussy.
Is there a hybrid that you're thinking of?
What about the Croft Syntra that is for sale on this very forum? Would be a great match l reckon.:)
One would think so ;)
For historical purposes, I'll just end this by noting that I've decided to go with the Luxman 505u.
It's the Swiss Army knife of integrateds: power meters, balance and tone controls, mono switch, built in MM or MC phono, RCA and balanced inputs, good power, - most importantly, it drives the Harbeths beautifully and never puts a foot wrong on the sonic front.
I will admit that it doesn't have the golden glow of SET amps, nor the pile-driving bass of a Krell, but it plays beautiful music nonetheless.
Elephantears
17-01-2012, 20:20
Thanks for keeping us up to date. Can you give us any details of what you compared it with at the last stage of the decision making process, and what swung it to the Luxman?
For historical purposes, I'll just end this by noting that I've decided to go with the Luxman 505u.
It's the Swiss Army knife of integrateds: power meters, balance and tone controls, mono switch, built in MM or MC phono, RCA and balanced inputs, good power, - most importantly, it drives the Harbeths beautifully and never puts a foot wrong on the sonic front.
I will admit that it doesn't have the golden glow of SET amps, nor the pile-driving bass of a Krell, but it plays beautiful music nonetheless.
I'm certain you'll be very happy with the Lux...it's one of those products that tends to get folks off the upgrade merry-go-round!
Please keep us in the loop.
Rick.
P.S. I do really enjoy my big Harbeths...take the hop, ship and jump to Ottawa and have a listen and a beer!! :lol:
I'm certain you'll be very happy with the Lux...it's one of those products that tends to get folks off the upgrade merry-go-round!
Please keep us in the loop.
Rick.
P.S. I do really enjoy my big Harbeths...take the hop, ship and jump to Ottawa and have a listen and a beer!! :lol:
I will do that if I find myself heading that way, thanks.
I did have a nice 90 minute listen to the M40s at the dealer. Here's the amazing thing: I'm looking at those massive woofers and I'm thinking: "this is gonna be thick in the lower mids" - but then it was ast and clean through the lower ranges, everything nicely segregated, well done but not overdone.
Thanks for keeping us up to date. Can you give us any details of what you compared it with at the last stage of the decision making process, and what swung it to the Luxman?
I was also considering the Nait XS with outboard phono and power supply, and the Supernait.
First off: I could live happily with any of them and not look back. I was looking for "musical" amps, and all three satisfy that need.
The Supernait was available at a discount price as a demo, but even with that it was going to be too expensive, especially after adding phono.
I actually loved the Nait XS and power supply (supercap?). Ultimately, I decided that I wanted more than even 60 good Naim watts could give me, and I wanted to avoid getting bitten any further by the upgrade bug, which is especially inherent in Naim products. The Luxman gave me that 3-4 db more headroom, a bit cleaner/clearer sound, but still kept the musicality.
Also, after extensive demos, I found that I can to rely on the power meters (I know they are approximations) as both an analytical tool and a reminder not to push the system too hard.
The Lux will give you pride in ownership and the fit and feel of the controls will be second to none. I suspect it'll clip more gracefully than any Naim as well, which, on the modern ones I've heard, sound fine until they let go, ipon which all the harsh nasties return with a vengeance.
Me? I'd sooner have a Quad 909 and get it recapped with better caps, or a pair of Albarry's (oops, shilling for my mate again ;)), but then, I went the bling route decades ago and came out the other side :D
(oops, shilling for my mate again ;)
A shilling won't get you much these days. Back when I were a lad, a shilling would buy you two seats at the cinema, three pints of beer, a fish supper, and money for a taxi home.
Or a 'knee-trembler' up the back of an alley! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Or a 'knee-trembler' up the back of an alley! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco! Pull your trousers up mate; your misspent youth is showing.:eek::D
Or a 'knee-trembler' up the back of an alley! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Nah. That was free!
Indeed, but sometimes the MILFs wanted a bit more to make up for it if they got caught! :D
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.