The sound difference between Elna Silmic 1/2 versus Elna Cerafine

[RoboCopper]

Hi,

I wonder what is the sonic difference between:
Elna Silmic (1 or 2)
vs
Elna Cerafine.

Any suggestion is welcome.

[pete_mac]

IMHO I find Silmics to be quite natural and inoffensive, whilst the Cerafines accentuate details in the music slightly and are a bit brighter.

I do a lot of recap work on vintage amps, and I always use Silmics in preamps, tone amps and other signal path locations. I get the best results with these.

[MartinT]

Another vote for Elna Silmics here, when I recapped the Beresford Caiman with them I found a very rewarding improvement in sound quality.

[Ant]

Words courtesy of hificollective (http://www.hificollective.co.uk/index.html) :

"The CERAFINE series realize high audio quality by super fine ceramic particles adopted in the fibers of the electrolytic separating paper. Charge/discharge speeds are improved, distortions are reduced (less potential variations due to electro-chemical action of the ceramic), and electrical noise generated by external vibration is suppressed. This reproduces excellent sound with real concert-hall presence, resolution, power, good presence in the low range and less distortion in the mid and high ranges. With the recent demise of Black Gates and stocks becoming hard to source, the Elna Cerafines are a near as you can get to the Black Gate sound and at a fraction of the price."

"The SILMIC series are Elna's highest grade audio capacitors that exhibit superior acoustic characteristics. An entirely new type of electrolytic separating paper is used, containing silk fibers. The extreme softness of silk can mitigate vibrational energy (generated by the electrodes, by external vibrations and by electromagnetic fields). Due to it's new electrolytic and foil design the signal propagation speed has increased (the ESR is reduced) and a more powerful, yet-mellow, sound is possible than before. When these capacitors were subjected to aural evaluations, the high range peak and midrange roughness were reduced substantially. Also, the low range richness and power were increased in the obtained high-quality sound."


HTH,
Ant

[RoboCopper]

I appreciate all the input.
But can you describe your opinion between NichiKZ vs Elna?

BTW the problem I am having is that I have refreshed my poweramp with all Elna Silmics 2 but I found sound to be a little thin and slightly aggressive.
The old no name caps old 15 years seem to be integrating better to my ear.

Thats why I thought of taking out some of Silmic2 and putting in one spare Cerafine.

[MartinT]

Roberto, it's much more likely that a) the Silmics need more time to bed in and fully form their electrolytic charge or b) there is something else amiss along the reproduction chain that the amp can now resolve. I doubt very much that a swap from Silmic to Cerafine will transform the sound as you expect.

[Ant]

Roberto, it's much more likely that a) the Silmics need more time to bed in and fully form their electrolytic charge or b) there is something else amiss along the reproduction chain that the amp can now resolve. I doubt very much that a swap from Silmic to Cerafine will transform the sound as you expect.

+1

Are the capacitance values the exact as the originals? Differ in values can impact the sound, especially in the feedback circuit.

KZ's - I find them less 'mellow' than the Silmics, however - others don't find the Silmics mellow at all. A bonus point for the KZ's is they cost around 1/10th of the equiv value Silmics.

[edit]

FWIW these are my preferred caps:

KZ - Analogue decoupling
AmpOhm Polystyrene - Analogue coupling
Sanyo Oscon - Digital decoupling
Kendeil/BHC - PSU reservoirs

Ant

[RoboCopper]

Martin, I guess you are right especially for burn in as so far 30hours have been playing.
I am also sure that something is also wrong along the lines as the poweramp sound open at least 5times more IMO, hence I can hear details which I was not able before.

But still If you can not listen the music, only sounds, the enjoyment is not full.

Ant, yes values are the same (only voltage on some of them is higher, which should be ok as far as I know).
The only higher value is 4x10.000uf of Kendeil PSU reservoirs (the old caps were called "Wendell" with 4x6.800uf) which also should be IMO.
The rest of tiny caps values were 4x 1uf,22uf and 220uf.
Amp in question is AMC 2445 which I use only as 2 channel poweramp.

[Ant]

My guess is the amp has been brought back to to it's former glory, ie, the details you are now hearing were there in the first place but after time were muted by the degrading caps.

The kendeil 10,000 are fine for this application, as are the others.

Hope it settles for you though, if not, try replacing the caps back one by one with the old until satisfied (apart from the Kendeils)

Ant

[sq225917]

Chances are that the Silmics are appreciably lower in ESR than the older caps, this will affect the sound of the amps.

[Ant]

+1 what sq said ^

Roberto, do you have any photo's with the lid off - caps shown in situ? I'm guessing the 220's are on the input, the 22's for feedback but the 1uF's?? Being a low value I'm wondering if they're in a similar position to a NAD amp I have, near the output in the speaker protection circuit.

Ant

[StanleyB]

I experimented with the Silmic in a Gator, and ended up sourcing some so that I can offer an Elna upgrade to the Gator. The sound is definitely more open with a better soundstage on the bipolar Silmic. The polarized Silmic is however a no no in the direct signal path.

[RoboCopper]

Chances are that the Silmics are appreciably lower in ESR than the older caps, this will affect the sound of the amps.

How does ESR affects sound, by being lower?

BTW Merry Christmas to all....

[RoboCopper]

I experimented with the Silmic in a Gator, and ended up sourcing some so that I can offer an Elna upgrade to the Gator. The sound is definitely more open with a better soundstage on the bipolar Silmic. The polarized Silmic is however a no no in the direct signal path.

So only bipolar caps if upgrading Gator??

[RoboCopper]

My guess is the amp has been brought back to to it's former glory, ie, the details you are now hearing were there in the first place but after time were muted by the degrading caps.

The kendeil 10,000 are fine for this application, as are the others.

Hope it settles for you though, if not, try replacing the caps back one by one with the old until satisfied (apart from the Kendeils)

Ant

I do not think that old caps could work with such a details as the Silmics2 and Kendail together.
The old caps are named for PSU (I) Wendell 4x6800uf 50v, (III)4x Wendell 220uf 16v, (II) 4x Wendell 22uf 25v and strangely:
all 1uf 50v (IV) 2xWendell 1xTayeh and 1xPromin (they all should be the same name, maybe an ex owner played with it!).

Photos follows of the old caps.



Can send photos of new state of the amp as well?

[RoboCopper]

+1 what sq said ^

Roberto, do you have any photo's with the lid off - caps shown in situ? I'm guessing the 220's are on the input, the 22's for feedback but the 1uF's?? Being a low value I'm wondering if they're in a similar position to a NAD amp I have, near the output in the speaker protection circuit.

Ant

I sent photos and I am not sure what the 1uF should be for.
Bear in mind that this amp has 4 channels,but with switch I only use them as Stereo.
As far as I know Silmics can be be used on almost any place in circuit (not for PSU duties of course)?

[MartinT]

So only bipolar caps if upgrading Gator??

For the Gator board coupling caps, yes. For all main Caiman cap replacement, use the polar versions.

[sq225917]

Robo have you checked the bias on the output devices since you swApped the parts over. These appear to closely follow the RCA application note design in which case after many years of use and swapping parts they will very likely need sett g correctly.

[RoboCopper]

No, I have not checked bias.

[Ant]

Hi Roberto, sorry it's taken a while to reply.

I've had a look through your photo's but I can't make out what's what circuit wise - I've been searching for a schematic with no joy as yet, although I'll keep looking.

I wouldn't worry about the various brands of original caps, that's a common thing. I would definitely check the bias as sq said though, there's plenty of info on-line to help you along if in doubt.

Ant

[RoboCopper]

The amp is AMC 2445, so if you can find schematic would be nice.

I will stick with Silmic 2 and hope that they sound better with burn in.
Thanks

[Ant]

Sorry Roberto I cannot find the schematic anywhere. I would really try to push you into checking/setting the bias though, it will be worthwhile.

Ant

[RoboCopper]

Last night I left burn in disk to play all night.

It is maybe my psyche but the sound is warmer, more "analouge" and easier to listen to. At the time of refreshing caps, I also included new RCA cables to burn in, hence too many changes happened at once. I hope that burn in gives further improvement. So far my guess is that I did 80 hours.

How would I find out bias settings? Contact manufacturer?