Starting from Scratch...apart from Castle Speakers

[littlest hobo]

Hi All

I joined last weekend and have received a warm welcome, thanks guys. I'm looking for some good advice on putting together a small, valve amp set up and someone suggested I post here.

1. I've been interested in music and HiFi sounds since childhood (my Dad dabbled in hi-fi), but I'll be honest and say that I need audiophile 'L' plates.
2. Money is an issue, I need to work out how much I should budget for (probably looking at 600-700 max for cd and amp)
3. I'm happy to buy second hand
4. The new equipment will go into my dining/music room (not a big space to fill) and I want to stay friends with my neighbours
5. I will need to pair an amp and cd player with a pair of Castle Kendal floor standers)
6. My musical tastes are varied, but I'm not a fan of thrash metal, X-factor or grime.

I've already received some interesting suggestions - Yarland FV34b and the Apollon Audio Apache. At the risk of dividing opinion I want to ask:

- What should I be looking for? :scratch: Sorry if that's a difficult question to answer

[Macca]

As someone was saying yesterday on another thread one of the keys to a good sound is geting a good match between amp and speakers. On paper either of the valve amps you have listed should be fine with the Kendal (are they the Mk1 or MK2 out of interest?) But the best way to find out is to get to try one at home before you commit.

You won't have much change left for a CDP, even so second-hand the choice is vast even at the £100 price point. I'd look at Sonys as they tend to go on almost forever and have a bit of 'pep' to their sound (the last thing you want is a boring sounding system) but that is just my taste. Sony CDPXB930s and 940s are usually available for around £100 or less, they are smooth sounding and have a great fixed transport mech so later you can add a quality off-board DAC should you desire.

Anyway that is just my recomendations, others may differ:)

[Rare Bird]

On paper either of the valve amps you have listed should be fine with the Kendal (are they the Mk1 or MK2 out of interest?) But the best way to find out is to get to try one at home before you commit.




Neither the Kendal MkI&II were 1970's stand mounters. ;)

[Macca]

Neither the Kendal MkI&II were 1970's stand mounters. ;)

But the OP says they are floorstanders so must be the early 1990s version?

[Rare Bird]

But the OP says they are floorstanders so must be the early 1990s version?

I have no intrest in the present Castle brand maybe they are using the old names Castle Acoustics Ltd (Skipton) originally used!

[Macca]

AFAIK they were Skipton based for design and manufacture up until a couple of years ago then the Chinese bought them. I think they have recycled the same names a few times over the years (there are at least 2 versions of the 'Durham' that I know of). Even if they are the 1990s verison they are still 'proper' Castle in that respect;)

[Rare Bird]

:lolsign:

[shane]

Yet another brand that now comes under Peter Comeau's umbrella at IAG.

[Welder]

Hi Claire.

Let me see if I can adjust your focus ;)

There is nothing wrong with valve amps if you can afford a good un. In my experience cheap valve amps aren’t any better than cheap solid state so why restrict yourself to valves? At the price range you’re looking at I would certainly consider a Class T/Hybrid which will probably out perform most sub £500 valve amps and possibly most new sub £500 solid state as well at around a third of the cost.

You could probably pick up a half decent CD player second hand in your price range but why bother? You could get better sound from a file based system if you’re prepared to go through the CD ripping process. I can say with my hand on my heart that I haven’t heard any mid range CD based system that performs as well as a computer based system in this price range.

Sooooo, let me spend your money for you.

If you don’t fancy using your current PC as a music server there is something like this;
http://store.voyage.hk/KMPD2f.php?id=54
They aren’t difficult to put together but your current computer will probably do just as well at this level.
There is also this which a few here have nothing but praise for
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=Logitech+touch&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=2476440498151315833&sa=X&ei=xaLsTvDQApCd8gOq-5WICg&ved=0CGcQ8wIwAQ

You will still need a Dac.

This as a Dac
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HRT-Music-Streamer-II-USB-DAC-Excellent-value-/390373089577?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_CDPlayerSeparates&hash=item5ae40ca129


Amp;
http://www.templeaudio.net/bantamgold.html
The Bantam Gold should drive your speakers to the level you require (not upsetting the neighbors) given your speakers are around 87db I believe. Worth checking with Temple Audio.

A couple of these, one for back up;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Digital-Elements-Desktop-External/dp/B002E7HEVU/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1324129735&sr=1-2

One of these to join Dac to server,
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=Belkin+gold+usb&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=17500268925219331035&sa=X&ei=s57sTsXwKsGo8AOD6PWfCg&ved=0CGEQ8wIwAw

Of course, if you buy second hand you may be lucky and pick up a bargain, but you could also pick up a load of problems. At least buying the above new, you have the chance to send stuff back if you’re disappointed.
Basically, what I’m suggesting is you reconsider the idea of a CD player as your music source and don’t restrict yourself to valve amps at this price range.

[Chivas]

Claire

I'm with John on this one, If I were you, I wouldn't limit myself to valves with the budget you have - unless you find an unbelievably good 2nd hand bargain.

If you're not an audiophile snob, you may want to look at the Cambridge Audio range, it's fantastic value for money.

Either way, try to buy second hand, your money will go a lot further, generally people look very well after hifi equipment and it lasts for years! There's always great stuff for sale in the Private Exhibitions section.

[Rare Bird]

This is an intresting thread as ive decided it's time to lay my vintage gear to storage which generally means it will be boxed up, never see the light of day again.

I'll be looking for something built around the HRT Streamer. Modern speakers will be a tough one for me as i feel they are way too expensive these days for my liking.

[Ali Tait]

Andre, you are a cabinet maker. Make yer own mate!

You could visit Colin Topps, that would give you a chance to listen to a few different designs using full range drivers. He's not a million miles away from you.

[wee tee cee]

Claire,
I assume you have a cd based music collection and you have a pair of speakers. I am in to total agreement regards a file based system. If you have a PC desk top or lap top you can easily load i tunes and rip everything lossless....lots of very knowledgeable folks on hear can advise and steer you through more sophisticated set ups.
For your budget if you just have cds and speakers you could buy a brand new dell lap top,and a temple audio bantum with usb built in. Great wee amp giving you a nice sonic compromise between valve and solid state sound. A set of belkin speaker cables/interconnects and usb cables all available on amazon /e bay at great prices would get you up and running for about £ 600 with brand new kit.
If you have a PC or Lap top already ,bang for buck a dac /t amp set up well within your budget would be very respectable sonically.

[Rare Bird]

Andre, you are a cabinet maker. Make yer own mate!

You could visit Colin Topps, that would give you a chance to listen to a few different designs using full range drivers. He's not a million miles away from you.

Who sells those Mark Audio Alpair 7 drive units Ali?

[DSJR]

More modern "proper" Castles all had a dry-ish quality to their sonics I found and a good modern valve amp would be lovely I think. The Apollon has been made "UK-ready" I understand, is the right price and NEW.. partner it with a classic Arcam CD player (A5 for future bodging - it has a great mech - A7SE, 8, 8SE or 72/82 although these later ones are newer). Give it a little thought at least...

[TBL]

Hello Claire and nice to see you hear.

Personally I think you will struggle find a "decent" valve amp CD combo for the sort of money you have. But one option might be a puresound A30 or an Audio Imnovations AI500.

Both are excellent amps and come up occasionally for around the £4-500 mark wouldn't leave much for CDP I know, but there is very little out there (apart from Chinese imports) which you could consider. The Cinese imports can be a minefield. But in my experience Bewitch make very very good amps at amazing prices.

Having said that if I had your budget I would go SS simply on value for money terms. A combo well worth considering is Marantz PM6004 & CD6004. New price for the pair is under £650 and considerably less 2nd hand.

They have the added advantage that they are widely available and you should have no problem getting an in store demo without too much travelling

[Jason P]

Hello Claire,

Well I'm going to disagree with some on here and say go secondhand and go valves. There was a Yarland on here for sale not so long ago - dunno if that's the one you were thinking of, but I'm a big fan of the EL34 valve it uses. Love the sound - very engaging and fluid without being to soporific. I preferred my EL34 based amp to the supposedly better KT88 based one I had later. CD wise there are lots to choose from, any of the Sony ES series for instance, Rotels, even older Marantz.

Buying SH means you can sell on without too much loss should you not like it, and a good valve amp will usually sell quickly.

Whatever you do let us know!

[littlest hobo]

Thought I should report back after receiving lots of kind advice...It's not good news I'm afraid, I'm now completely lost in HiFi :doh:.

My Castle speakers are Mk 2's I think, small floor standers designed and built in Skipton. Currently powered via a Rotel RA920AX integrated amp (I wasn't keen on when I bought it 16 years ago, but it kept going) and a ancient Pioneer CD-player that regularly incarcerates my CD's! It's not a great sound, I can only describe it as a bit mushy, although the 'new to me' speakers are an improvement.

I want something with decent clarity and warmth at low volume. To try and describe it, I recently brought the Steve Knightly, live in Somerset CD - listening to it on my Dad's set up if you close your eyes you could almost be there in the intimate setting of South Petherton Village Hall. Through my system it's sounds more like your in the kitchen getting the tea and biscuits ready for the interval. In other words, you're not quite in the room! Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I'll move things along.

So having read through your advice, I've concluded that:
- I can't get away with a cheapo valve amp, shame;
- I've discounted going digital (although thanks to Welder for the effort you put into your response), I'm just too lazy to rip CD's, I like to look at the art work whilst listening to music, and I won't get away with sneaking all of that equipment into the house without the other-half noticing;
- I've fallen for Rega Planet CD players - although I'm not sure why, apart from reading the reviews;
- I've toyed with the idea of the apallon valve amp or a second hand Melody valve amp and making do with my current Pioneer cd player, I'm now adept at taking it apart to recover trapped cd's
- I've toyed with partnering an audio note pre-amp with a vintage SS power amp or cheap mono-blocs
- I've considered going for a second hand solid state integrated amp like a Meridian 551 or Musical Fidelity A300;
- I've thought about Linn Classik's with the option to add a power amp later on;
- I've looked at Naim Nac bits and pieces...

I've read reviews and contemplated debates on Linn, Naim, Sugden, Bryston, NVA etc. I'm learning a lot and I find I'm partial to old Brit stuff, but ultimately I've concluded that I'm no nearer making a decision.

So here I am, completely lost and contemplating having a :cool: before knuckling down to some more brain aching research. I guess that's why HiFi is such an enthralling if, frustrating past time.

Happy New Year and if you had the patience to read this response, thanks and please keep the ideas coming.

[dave2010]

Claire

What do you want this for? Is it just for you, or do you intend other people to listen to it too? Are you really bothered about quality, and if so do you want detail or something smooth? Have you even considered headphones? Some people like them. My guess is that within your budget you should just about get something which will sound reasonable if you stick with your current speakers, though that also assumes that you like the speakers (which I don't know) and that you try to match the rest of the system to them. You could consider other speakers, but that would very likely increase the budget requirements, possibly quite a lot.

If you're not going to go for the digital transport route you might also want to consider DVD and SACD players, though any of these will raise the issue of whether to use a separate DAC or digital amp. The D to A systems inside some kit are not very good, but otoh some kit can be excellent. For example, the analogue output of my now ageing Marantz CD player is pretty good, and is by no means outclassed by other equipment which I use - a Logitech Squeezebox or a Caiman DAC. Sometimes I listen via the analogue CD outputs, and sometimes via the digital outputs through a dac.

Note that the digital transport route can be good if you ever want to provide music in several different rooms. I agree about the faff of ripping CDs though.

In your budget range are you considering integrated amps, or amp plus pre-amp combinations? I think it would be hard to get a good amp plus pre-amp without going second hand, but some integrated amps are worth having. You do also need to consider whether you'll ever need more than one input source, such as a DAB tuner, or any other inputs. Otherwise some of the T-amps might do just as well, and some are quite cheap, so you could try them at low cost, then sell them on if they don't do it for you. FWIW I have a Bantam Gold - I'm still not absolutely sure how much I like it, but I've had it connected for a year or so now. The only amp I really took to in the last few years was someone else's Musical Fidelity, costing around £1.5k. Sometimes you just have to go with you can afford.

I'm guessing you don't want multi-channel, or AV kit. That would open up a different discussion.

If you like deep bass, and you have small rooms, then consider a sub-woofer. It's amazing how you can get away with small speakers if you bring a good sub-woofer into the system, though you may also find it overpowering, and your neighbours might not like it.

[bobbasrah]

I must concur with most of what has been said before, but can't help feel from your own update that the indecision is more down to VFM and preconception than logic, particularly with a digital source. NAIM, Sugden, Bryston? Why are you looking at these with a limited budget, with the probability that an expensive overhaul would be required?

My entire music and video collection is on the HDDs (multiTb), and the process of ripping to HDD was neither tiresome/troublesome, just a gradual process. There is nothing to stop me playing the original CD from the computer's drive or one of the other drives. The computer may not shout HIFI from the rack as would say a dedicated CD/DVD/Bluray box, but that is not important to me, the audio quality is, and that is not so much dictated by the mechanicals of the process (in the main, although not all).
I can still browse the scanned artwork, or retrieve the original case from the archive boxes if the need arises, however I am playing music. A laptop and HDD would sneak past the other half in a carrier bag unnoticed.

I have multiple optical drives here which are mostly redundant, purchased before powerful computers and large capacity drives finally took over. I do not regret buying the dedicated drives that were the technology of the time. Would I buy one now? Not unless it was something very very special indeed, and I could afford it, neither of which is likely. Update the player audio internals perhaps would be another possibility, but I can do that externally to the computer, ONCE.

On the amp side, Dave pretty much summed it up. A half decent amp or receiver with separable pre and power stages would be a first step, and you can play around with separate pre and power thereafter, within which budget you are comfortable. A subwoofer line out from that to a subwoofer will take up where the Castles run out of steam.
The days of old cheap good gear is largely history, I'm afraid, as Fleabay entrepreneurs predominate in the marketplace, and profiteer.

Good luck with your decisions in 2012...

[shabby64]

You could always start from zero ;)

An example within your budget;

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3614-monitor-audio-bronze-bx2-speakers-pair.aspx (£225)

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-2669-marantz-pm6003-amplifier.aspx (£200)

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3212-marantz-cd5004-cd-player.aspx (£180)

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-9562-atacama-nexus-i-speaker-stands-pair.aspx (£70)

£675 delivered in total - EVERYTHING brand new with 2-5 years warranty plus amp & CDP work with the same remote when linked.

You could also sell the Rotel & Castles to fund better speaker cables & interconnect (if needed).

Don't get lost in too much "research";you'll go mad :eek: & end up either buying nothing or going way over budget!

[DSJR]

I can confidently recommend the suggested Rega Planet CD players of old because, 1, I sold them new and know how involving they can sound and 2, because Rega can still service them should it be necessary. use with the Klotz based "Couple" if possible (or make your own). The "Clamshell" Mira and Luna amps were goodies too for the reasons given above.

You may be surprised how much better the Rotel amp can sound, you never know, but I must admit the 971 bigger one was rather better still..

[Audioman]

Claire. Just read through all this thread and frankly I am not surprised you are confused. Buying second hand is a minefield and can involve unseen repair costs. With a limited budget steer away from valves. Good valves amps are reasonably expensive especially if you don't want a mushy sound. I think if you are keeping the Castles solid state is a better match.

You expressed a liking for Rega so I am going to suggest stretching to a c£1000 budget and go for a Rega Brio R and the new Apollo R CD player. I think the sound would suite your criteria and you are getting top value for money with warranty and no hidden extra costs. I haven't heard these myself but judging from others enthusiasm for the Brio and the sound of previous Rega equipment I would recommend you audition these at your local dealer. (Cymbiosis in Leicester).

[Alex_UK]

You expressed a liking for Rega so I am going to suggest stretching to a c£1000 budget and go for a Rega Brio R and the new Apollo R CD player.

I was going to suggest this yesterday, but it is quite a stretch on the budget. At the very least, a Brio R (£480) which would then leave £220 for a second-hand CD player - maybe the last Apollo if you're lucky, or save a little for the new version.

The Brio R is IMO simply stunning value (I put my money where my mouth is!) and I've yet to read or hear a bad word about it - it's getting a bit boring me keep recommending it, but that's just because it is so good at any price, let alone the give away price it is. Yet to try the new Apollo, but the "word on the street" is that it is very good too, so I'd sell some family silver and go with the aesthetically matching combo, get full warranty and dealer back up, and of course buy British, too!

[JJack]

Here's how great a deal you could get on used gear (if you lived in the States, sorry): I'm selling my Arcam 10 integrated and 7SE player for about 380 pounds FOR BOTH.

Given that this kit was made in the UK, I'm sure you could find a similar deal if you hunted around a bit. The Arcams have been bulletproof and they sound wonderful at both low and high volume. I'm thinking they have to be available all over the place in the UK.

If you could find a deal like I'm selling, you could also get a new pair of Wharfedale 10.1 or something else terrific like that, and still be under your budget. Speakers have made great strides recently.

Used is easy if you stick with the big names (Arcam, Cambridge, etc) that have stood the recent test of time.

I also haven't made the jump to computer audio, it seems there are too many variables for me to understand right now; I'm hoping it gets sorted in the next couple years and then I'll jump in.

[hoopsontoast]

To add another idea into the mix, dont discount big'ol Jap battleship amps.
I have a Sony TA-F670ES which I picked up for under £150, and previously have a TA-F770ES for around £300. Both stonking amps.
Full of features and inputs, enough power for anyone but crucially, they just make music.
I had a T-Amp for a good while, and I would recommend one, even just for backup but with reasonably easy to drive speakers (Impedance rather than sensitivity unless you play loud) you might just be surprised.
FWIW, I preferred the TA2020 T-Amp over the Bantam Gold.
Regarding the CDP, Rega Planet (Mk1 and 2000) both are great, the Mk1 tends to go for £150ish and the 2000 for £200ish. I have had great success with a Philips CD-850, and there are plenty of these older Legacy CDP's around for dirt cheap, I picked up mine for £50, bargain! As a cheap transport as well gives you a budget for a modern DAC if you want to try any.

[RichB]

Some great advice from shabby there.... no reason why such a system couldnt give you years of enjoyment and i reckons this combo would sound like lots of fun without compromising on quality. I'm assuming of course its a nice system rather than a hi-fi hobby you're after!

Second the idea of selling the castle's and putting the funds towards a nice budget USB DAC, i use the Beresford TC-7502 (unmodified as yet) which, when connected to a PC or laptop, will open up the world of net radio, spotify and downloads. That way you never run out of something to listen to!

[The Grand Wazoo]

What's wrong with Castle Kendals?
Everyone seems to want Claire to get rid of them, when she's stated in her original post that she wants to buy an amp & CD player to match the speakers she owns (& presumably likes), and that money is tight.

[wee tee cee]

Dell lap top/gatorized caiman or usb dac/t amp- mini t/original bantum belkin interconnects and speaker cable.
You could start out with the basis for an excellent computer based system all new and within your budget.
Loads of scope to upgrade things as the money becomes availble.
Loads of guys willing to help with the computer side of things.
The t amps will give you a nice valve like presentation.
Tony.

[littlest hobo]

What's wrong with Castle Kendals?
Everyone seems to want Claire to get rid of them, when she's stated in her original post that she wants to buy an amp & CD player to match the speakers she owns (& presumably likes), and that money is tight.

Thanks for the observation. We've just moved house (hence money is V tight), I bought the Castles in the midst of the move - changing them again so soon after would not be well received, ditto buying another computer. I'm enjoying the Castle's for now and they're step up from my Arcam Duo's.

Have been looking at all my options (solid state/valve, integrated and pre/power) there is so much choice. I've been looking at the Bantum's and I'm particularly taken with the monoblocs. There's a lot of opportunities to experiment over the next couple of years, just working out my starting point.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed and opened my eyes to the world of hifi

P.S. I'm a Mac girl