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muffinman
27-11-2008, 22:14
being for the benefit of Mr.C:

please post if you are feeling the technics 1200 vibe

Hi, i'm Gareth
I live in Norwich
I happily own a pimped 1200 which replaces a pimped gorbe/evo

Marco
27-11-2008, 22:24
Hehe... I've been known to use one on occasions, too :eyebrows:

Marco.

Filterlab
27-11-2008, 22:27
I didn't notice you lived in Norwich Muffinman, whereabouts? I grew up there and I return to visit the family now and then.

Marco
27-11-2008, 22:33
Did you ever watch Sale of the Century? :)

Marco.

muffinman
27-11-2008, 22:35
I didn't notice you lived in Norwich Muffinman, whereabouts? I grew up there and I return to visit the family now and then.


I think it's time for your tablets Rob http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1056

:lolsign:

Filterlab
27-11-2008, 22:37
I think it's time for your tablets Rob http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1056

:lolsign:

I think you might be right mate - so many members, so many locations, so many drugs. :smoking:

:lol:

bong
02-12-2008, 12:17
to get this topic back on track, i'll post a couple of pictures with my setup (the ikea table and amp have changed since though .. miss the glowies) ... and let'em do the talking .. :smoking:

with lights
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/konglip/light.jpg

sans lights (in case you're wondering, it's the shadow of the headshell) :cool:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll258/konglip/dark.jpg

Filterlab
02-12-2008, 12:21
Nice pics, I'd forgotten the Technics turntables had the stroboscope thing for speed trim.

bong
02-12-2008, 12:34
Nice pics, I'd forgotten the Technics turntables had the stroboscope thing for speed trim.

thanks. stroboscope thing = 'that pretty spinning thing' to swmbo :doh:

Filterlab
02-12-2008, 12:48
Well, it is pretty. :)

Steve Toy
03-12-2008, 01:36
Apparently there are sonic gains to be derived from disabling the stroboscope thing...

Marco
03-12-2008, 11:00
Indeed there are, Steve.

I've been doing some tests recently with the strobe disabler and its effect, though subtle, is obvious (a clearer sound with less subjective distortion). Engaging it creates a quieter background which allows greater insight into music - quite simply, after listening with the strobe disabler activated you wouldn't want to live with the deck any other way!

Since Dave Cawley has emerged as a UK supplier of Technics T/T modifications the waters have been muddied somewhat on what is considered the 'ultimate' way to have a 1200 or 1210 modified. I believe that I own such an animal, so for the benefit of others seeking to have the same this is the way I would go if cost is no object:

1) Buy a new or second-hand deck from Dave. If it's second-hand you'll have the security of knowing that it will have been thoroughly tested and therefore be in sound mechanical and physical condition. The same cannot necessarily be said with an unpredictable purchase on Ebay or from a seller anywhere else whom you don't know.

2) Have Dave fit a Time Step PSU, Jelco SA-750D arm and modified Herbie's mat to the deck of your choice.

3) Obtain an Audio Technica LH-18 detachable headshell (Dave can supply these - they are the best there is) and some Clearaudio high-grade cartridge leads, again Dave can supply those (these offer the best performance-to-cost ratio in my experience).

4) Obtain and fit Isonoe support feet.

Now here's the costly 'going the extra mile' bit, but necessary if you seek ultimate performance...

5) Send your deck to KAB in the States and have Kevin fit the threaded record clamp modification (this offers better coupling and improved performance in my experience to 'audiophile' record weights simply placed on the spindle), and also the strobe disabler.

5) When your deck is returned, fit the cartridge of your choice, connect to your system and enjoy wonderful music, basking in the satisfaction that you own a truly special turntable offering sonic performance that in real terms (based on 'audiophile' market prices) is worth five figures! :cool:

Marco.

P.S Once Dave knows how to/has the equipment and facilities to achieve that described in 5), involving KAB in any capacity will not be necessary.

MartinT
08-12-2008, 04:02
Marco

Setting aside for a moment the benefits of KAB's screw-on clamp versus a weight (I thought I read somewhere that you didn't like clamps/weights - have your views changed?), that leaves the strobe disabler as the only reason for sending a deck to KAB. When I receive mine from Sound Hi-Fi I'm going to investigate inserting a simple toggle switch into the strobe's circuit and mounting it on the rear chassis so that I can use it on occasion but mostly leave it off.

Marco
08-12-2008, 10:00
Hi Martin,

Yes my thoughts have changed regarding clamps since I've got the Jelco. Beforehand, the only way I could obtain correct VTA with my Denon cartridge was to use a combination of three mats (with the arm wound down to minimum height) and of course that left no room on the spindle for a clamp, and if I took one of the mats off in order to allow the use of the KAB threaded clamp then VTA would be out and consequently I wasn't able to properly assess the effect of the clamp.

With the Jelco now, however, I'm able to lower the arm sufficiently to obtain correct VTA and also use only one mat. Consequently, I can now utilise the clamp and obtain its benefit. After assessing things now over a week or so its benefit is clearly significant and, to my ears, superior to results achieved with a high quality Clearaudio clamp loaned from Dave. Why, I'm unsure, but the KAB threaded clamp seems to offer better coupling between record and mat, perhaps because it's screwed down on to the record through the spindle rather than something heavy merely placed on top of the record.

Anyway, with the threaded clamp in use there is definitely a quieter background during playback and more sense of 'cohesion', consequently one is allowed greater insight into the music with improved detail retrieval. The effect was similar with the Clearaudio clamp but in no way as pronounced. I would thus place the effect of the KAB threaded clamp as the third most significant KAB upgrade after the PSU and arm rewire, however if one is changing the arm anyway (and dealing with Dave) then it's next in priority after the PSU and fitting of the Jelco.

I must stress Martin that I doubt it is possible to achieve the effect of the threaded clamp by using a standard record weight or 'clip-on' clamp, so I guess that this means sending one's deck to KAB to have this particular modification done is mandatory, unless one knows an engineer in the UK with the requisite tools to do the job. The key to the effect of the KAB clamp seems to be it being threaded through the spindle. I guess that Kevin designed it that way for a reason. Regarding the strobe disabler you could certainly try something yourself or buy it from KAB and fit it with the instructions supplied. The only reason I mentioned the strobe disabler in terms of sending one's deck to the States is because when the threaded clamp is being fitted the disabler could be done at the same time.

Oh, and don't forget the Isonoes!

Marco.

chris@panteg
08-12-2008, 11:43
Hi Marco

Yes the isonoe feet do seem to be quite an improvement ,they look cool too
so far my only tweeks have been these and an srm/tech acrylic mat but i am about to fit the sumiko headshell with a denon dl160 ,in a few days i am going to order the Time step Psu from Dave then maybe next year if i can afford it the jelco arm, i really must say having owned some top belt drives in the past, that this little 1210 has been such a revelation and for the price (currently £313)
it really is a steal 'yes it does need some tweeking but compared too say the latest lp12 majik' i just can't spend that sort of dosh anymore .

i find with the 1210 i enjoy just listening music and not worrying about how much it cost compared to when i had the linn which left me broke a few times.

MartinT
08-12-2008, 12:53
Thanks Marco and Chris

I will experiment with the record weight I have and keep in the back of my mind the KAB spindle upgrade. Since I can obtain Isonoe feet locally (looks like Origin Live are dealers) then these can be added at a later stage. I have ordered Sound Hi-Fi's Feet 1 sorbothane feet since my Solid Tech system rack already has sprung feet very similar to the Isonoes.

What with two cartridges to play with, I'm looking forward to trying out a few variations.

Chris, I also have a Denon DL-160 ready to try in the Jelco arm. I'd like to hear your opinion of it when you get yours running.

Dave Cawley
08-12-2008, 13:05
Marco, could I borrow your clamp please? With the 'stiffer' PSU we supply, the strobe disabler really isn't necessary in my opinion. However I could do it now if people thought it was?

Regards

Dave

Peter Stockwell
08-12-2008, 13:08
Dave,

You say that the Time Step PSU is stiffer ?

Why is that ?

I have the KAB PSU, which connects to the bridge rectifier. Yours is after the bridge rectifier. When I spoke to Kevin, I got the impression that it made the PSU easier to fit going through the rectifier.

I'm pondering sending you my SL1210 for final fettling.

cheers

Marco
08-12-2008, 13:14
Marco, could I borrow your clamp please? With the 'stiffer' PSU we supply, the strobe disabler really isn't necessary in my opinion. However I could do it now if people thought it was?


It's a hard one to judge, Dave, so without doing the comparison I can't comment. Does your PSU remove the noise generated by the strobe? Certainly on my deck with the KAB PSU the effect of the strobe disabler is significant and easily heard.

The clamp wouldn't work on your deck because it's been designed to use with a threaded spindle - there would be no hole on your spindle to take the insert inside the clamp (and besides I'm using it ;)).

I could bring it down if you want when the new arm fixing plates are ready.

Btw, any idea when the AT headshell can be done - when are you due back from Miami?

Martin and Chris, I'll get back to you later - just having a spot of lunch :)

Marco.

muffinman
08-12-2008, 15:36
Martin - Give the michell clamp a try:
it weighs next to nothing
it clamps well and has a broad footprint
its resale value, if it doesn't work for you, is excellent
best of all it's black and silver

i use one with 'great' results i.e. it makes warped records flatter and provides a firm record/mat interface.
got to be worth a try before sending it abroad

Dave Cawley
08-12-2008, 15:38
Hi Marco, I need to see how the clamp is done, then we can make ours compatible, thread size etc?? Or send me some hi res photos, and check the thread size and pitch for me?

Or PSU is 'stiffer' or in simple language the output impedance is much lower. The easy way is to go into the rectifier, but we did not take easy way out. If you look at the scope traces, and please do, you can see the attenuation our PSU gives to the motor pules, it's the same with the strobe.

Regards

Dave

Marco
08-12-2008, 16:03
Hi Marco, I need to see how the clamp is done, then we can make ours compatible, thread size etc?? Or send me some hi res photos, and check the thread size and pitch for me?


Dave, unfortunately I don't have a digital camera so can't take pictures. All I can suggest is that you look at the KAB website and check for information, if available, on there. Perhaps email Kevin? You don't have to mention who you are ;)

Failing that, we can sort it out when I next come down. I don't want to be without my clamp because I use it every day :)

Will we be able to get the AT headshell thing sorted out before Christmas?

Marco.

MartinT
08-12-2008, 18:39
Hi Muffinman

I used to have a Michell clamp with a Syncro turntable years ago (the turntable was good, the Helius arm pants). You're right, it is a good clamp and I had forgotten that it's still made. I will look out for one and compare it with the weight.

chris@panteg
09-12-2008, 00:28
Thanks Marco and Chris
What with two cartridges to play with, I'm looking forward to trying out a few variations.

Chris, I also have a Denon DL-160 ready to try in the Jelco arm. I'd like to hear your opinion of it when you get yours running.


Hi Martin
yes by all means i have been using an At120e and in the past i have had a linn troika and the music maker mk1 which was wonderful, i would love to try that in the 1210.

MartinT
09-12-2008, 00:46
Past cartridges for me have included an Ortofon MC-20 Supreme (a little polite), AT-OC7 (good detail, slightly rough treble), AT-OC9 (great all-rounder) and my current Grado Prestige Gold (good dynamics and life, slightly coloured). However, my all-time favourite is a rare Dynavector 20A which needs a re-tip that I'm tempted to get done sometime.

I'm looking forward to trying the Denon DL-160, still in its box at the moment.

Marco
09-12-2008, 08:30
Yes the isonoe feet do seem to be quite an improvement ,they look cool too
so far my only tweeks have been these and an srm/tech acrylic mat but i am about to fit the sumiko headshell with a denon dl160 ,in a few days i am going to order the Time step Psu from Dave then maybe next year if i can afford it the jelco arm, i really must say having owned some top belt drives in the past, that this little 1210 has been such a revelation and for the price (currently £313)
it really is a steal 'yes it does need some tweeking but compared too say the latest lp12 majik' i just can't spend that sort of dosh anymore .

i find with the 1210 i enjoy just listening music and not worrying about how much it cost compared to when i had the linn which left me broke a few times.


Hi Chris,

I know exactly what you mean as I've been there myself.

The problem with the LP12 (in any form) is that it's a flawed design from the outset (low-mass belt-drive mechanism with puny motor housed in a fairly flimsy, resonant box) so no amount of 'upgrading', whilst such fundamental flaws remain, will ever make it right, particularly if your ears are sensitive to its resulting sonic deficiencies.

Therefore spending money on Linn's whatever latest new 'upgrades', when your ears are (subconsciously or otherwise) telling you something is still wrong, will never result in genuine satisfaction because all these so-called 'upgrades' are doing is papering over the cracks. Basically, you're chasing an unattainable goal and thus end up on a never-ending spiral of continual 'upgrading' without ever being truly satisfied - you can't fix what is fundamentally broken. It's rather like pouring an exotic sauce over a cheap cut of meat in the hope of creating a gourmet dish.

However, some people enjoy the Linn's euphonic coloration (the sonic signature obtained as a result of what's wrong above) and this is what their ears have become attuned to as 'right', 'tuneful', or 'musical', or whatever other fanciful terminology the faithful have dreamt up in order to appease their conscience and convince themselves that the thousands of pounds they've spent on Keels, and other vastly over-priced Linn ancillaries, such as their tonearms and cartridges, is justified and money well spent. Any other thought is too terrible to contemplate. The reality, however, is that they've been fleeced by a very clever marketing/propaganda machine, born over 30 years ago, and amongst the gullible or brainwashed, still as influential today. Old habits, I'm afraid, die hard.

The Technics 1210 is a different beast altogether simply because its deficiencies (and there are some) are not fundamental in the way of the Linn and therefore more easily rectified. The 1210 is, conversely, fundamentally 'correct' from the outset because it is based on a highly accurate, powerful, direct-drive motor mechanism, housed in a well-damped non-resonant plinth, and thus it achieves near perfect speed stability and effective isolation of the musical signal - a prerequisite for accurate and realistic music reproduction from vinyl. All you want a turntable motor unit and platter to do is consistently turn at the right speed under normal playback conditions whilst imposing as little coloration on the signal as possible. The 1210 does this extremely effectively, as does any other high quality direct-drive or idler/rim-drive turntable, or indeed high-mass string or belt-drive turntable, (although at considerable cost). This is not simply a D/D v. belt-drive debate. It's only low-mass belt-drive T/Ts which are fundamentally flawed in the way I have described, so it's not just the LP12 that is guilty. There are unfortunately numerous other examples of the breed populating the marketplace!

The 1210s minor deficiencies (in comparison to the Linn's), such as tonearm quality and improving the rather poor rubber mat supplied, are easily rectified, and at a relatively low cost, which therefore makes it a far more viable record playing solution. Only 'badge snobs', geeks brainwashed from the 'flat earth' days of the 70s and 80s, and those with commercial agendas will think differently. If we return to my earlier food analogy: with the 1210 the 'meat' is already of the highest quality; all that is required to create a gourmet dish is the fine 'sauce' - a much easier and altogether less problematic recipe for success...

Marco.

chris@panteg
09-12-2008, 09:45
Marco
Absolutely spot on and all this talk of the keel being so great' but what about the drive system just watch as the lp12 starts it wobbles all over the place' then settles i think this is going to be the next upgrade from linn and it will cost around £2k or £3k whatever.

Marco
09-12-2008, 10:08
Absolutely spot on and all this talk of the keel being so great' but what about the drive system...


Indeed.

It was Linn, I believe, who 'pioneered' the source-first system building strategy, coined the phrase 'Garbage in, garbage out', creating adverts in magazines stating such, and cleverly incorporated it into their marketing campaigns of the day. Well it's about time they practiced what they preached all those years ago... ;)

However I don't wish this to sound like an anti-Linn rant; it's not. There are others equally as guilty (although perhaps understandably through necessity) of championing fundamentally broken turntable building methodologies.

Marco.

chris@panteg
09-12-2008, 10:59
Yes good point ,i am just keen now to enjoy and get the best out of my 1210 and linn have helped keep vinyl alive also thank god that the 1210 has been so popular with DJ's ,
otherwise i may not be listening to one.

Marco
09-12-2008, 11:05
How very true, Chris! :)

Marco.

stupinder
09-12-2008, 19:24
I had a lp12 for a while recently -i'd always wanted one from being 14/15 in the 80s.
Lasted about 2 weeks and was soon replaced with a 1210 -bought off ebay (ive ranted on about my woes of this elsewhere so won't go into it again). I absolutely love it -mk 5 arm (shit i need to send a cheque to someone on the wam - sorry if you read this -i'll pm you) Dl110 and achromat.
Its rock solid, simple to use and does its job without complaining or needing constant attention! I used to have a couple for Djing and i know this deck is going to last forever.
Perhaps the next upgrade will be Daves Sorthobane feet and getting someone to build me a nice box for it as moneys too tight to mention for the seperate psu, rewire etc.

MartinT
09-12-2008, 22:30
The anti-Linn rants in here remind me that I feel exactly the same about Naim amps. Take a bog-standard manufacturer's application note, over hype the power supplies and sell to people who value in-your-face presentation with no subtlety, no detail, no stereo soundstage and few spatial cues. But perhaps this isn't the place...

My very favourite turntable, which doesn't get much mention these days, was the three-arm direct drive Micro Seiki (I forget the model). A friend had one with the Dynavector DV-505 arm and Karat Diamond cartridge. Now that deck sounded extremely good indeed.

Marco
09-12-2008, 22:43
The anti-Linn rants in here remind me that I feel exactly the same about Naim amps.


Oi, Martin, there are no anti-Linn rants here; merely equipment appraisals based on experience :-)


Take a bog-standard manufacturer's application note, over hype the power supplies and sell to people who value in-your-face presentation with no subtlety, no detail, no stereo soundstage and few spatial cues. But perhaps this isn't the place...


You're entitled to your opinion but I'm not sure I necessarily agree. I know where you're coming from, but I ran a CDS2/NAC52/Supercap/NAP135s system (with the Spendors I'm still using now) for nearly six years and if all it done was as you've described it would've been in the bin long before that ;)


My very favourite turntable, which doesn't get much mention these days, was the three-arm direct drive Micro Seiki (I forget the model). A friend had one with the Dynavector DV-505 arm and Karat Diamond cartridge. Now that deck sounded extremely good indeed.

I've never heard that deck but I rate the DV tonearm highly, although perhaps less so the cartridge. You certainly get plenty of innovation and engineering prowess, though, with a 505!

Marco.

chris@panteg
09-12-2008, 23:26
Oi, Martin, there are no anti-Linn rants here; merely equipment appraisals based on experience :-)

You're entitled to your opinion but I'm not sure I necessarily agree. I know where you're coming from, but I ran a CDS2/NAC52/Supercap/NAP135s system (with the Spendors I'm still using now) for nearly six years and if all it done was as you've described it would've been in the bin long before that ;)




Thats an interesting point Marco' whenever i hear a full naim active system with say DBL or SBL speakers ' i really don't care for it, but i once heard the CDS with a 72/hicap/250 through some heybrook's playing mahler's 5th and it was simply magnificent ,even my trusty Snell j11 sound good with naim amps so i am told but better still with AI 2nd audio and border patrol psu which is what used to have now sold alas.:(

MartinT
09-12-2008, 23:27
merely equipment appraisals based on experience

I quite agree and I was talking from experience too :) - never heard a Naim setup I've liked yet and I've heard many. They seem especially unable to set up a good demo room at hi-fi shows, although that problem is shared with many other vendors.

Getting back on-topic, how have you found the Jelco 750 arm so far? Have you formed an opinion in comparison with the Technics arm as to what it brings to the party?

Peter Stockwell
10-12-2008, 00:00
I feel exactly the same about Naim amps. Take a bog-standard manufacturer's application note, over hype the power supplies and sell to people who value in-your-face presentation with no subtlety, no detail, no stereo soundstage and few spatial cues. But perhaps this isn't the place...

.

Funny that, isn't how I feel about mine, nor about the 1st Naim rig that got me excited, a CDX/XPS/82/HI/250 into shahanian speakers of some kind. It even made an LP12 sound good ;). But each to his own.

I will say I rarely want to listen to classical with the Naim system, whereas I did when I had a tube amp, so I guess it says something.

cheers

chris@panteg
10-12-2008, 00:11
Martin i have just fitted the dl160 and its sounds good so far compared to the 120e there is a lot less hum pick up ,early days yet but it sounds more refined

MartinT
10-12-2008, 03:29
Martin i have just fitted the dl160 and its sounds good so far

That's excellent news, Chris, I had the feeling the DL-160 was going to be a good purchase (plus many good reviews out there). I look forward to a shootout with the Grado Prestige Gold.

Peter Stockwell
10-12-2008, 07:23
I look forward to a shootout with the Grado Prestige Gold.

I used one of these for many years, I liked what it did. It's still on the Garrard, but the Garrard is "resting" at present. Curently enjoying a Shure V15 IV with JICO super analogue stylus. It's paired with the lttle Clearaudio nano phono stage, which still need to settle. Over the few hours that it played last night I heard the presentation become meatier and more relaxed. No loss of rhythmic pulse, tho'.

The nano is so small it tucks just under the SL1210!

cheers

chris@panteg
10-12-2008, 11:45
Had another listen this morning and although it needs some breaking in' it still sounds way better than the AT120e, but the thing that strikes me most is the lack of hum pick up' its a real problem with AT120e' therefore i would caution against its use on the 1200/10 even though it does sound good.