View Full Version : Croft vs Primaluna
Hi,
I would appreciate any opinions on:-
Would a Primaluna Prologue Two be better than my,
Croft Super Micro A, recently overhauled with off board supply running into a Croft Twinstar 3 also recently overhauled/upgraded.
Thanks,
Oh, am I mad for thinking this?
The Grand Wazoo
12-12-2011, 00:20
Carl,
You need to do a little housekeeping if you don't mind please mate.
When you joined you were asked to check into the Welcome section to start a thread in order to introduce yourself to the natives.
This is the best way to be sure of a warm & friendly welcome (and to keep on the right side of the rules).
Just tell us a little about yourself, your system & your music.
Thanks in advance.
Haselsh1
12-12-2011, 15:39
I can imagine the build quality and finish of the Prima Luna completely trashing the build quality and finish of the Croft from personal experience.
The Black Adder
12-12-2011, 16:35
No comparison to be honest... They are like chalk n cheese.
From my latest experience Croft would trash Primaluna in the most important aspect... the sound. Build quality of Croft cannot be sniffed at either, absolute top build quality and no fussy aesthetic crazyness. But that is down to what you want to spend your readies on.
I heard a Primaluna Prologue II with some Harbies once and I could see why the guy didn't like the sound but imo unfortunately he sold they wrong bit of kit... the Harbies.
Hear, hear, Joe! :clap:
Glenn doesn't do 'aesthetic frippery' (although his gear is very well built and reliable) - it's all about superb sound quality (yes, the MOST important thing, when it comes to AUDIO equipment!) And anyone who listens to Croft gear, who knows what good sound is, surely couldn't fail to acknowledge that.
Shaun, I have to say that your continual 'tirade' against Croft, whenever the opportunity arises, simply because you bought an amp with a faulty knob (or whatever trivial thing it is was that went wrong, and that was sorted out very quickly by your dealer) is becoming very tedious, as well as being totally uncalled for.
So, please, wind yer neck in, dude, and change the bloody record! :rolleyes:
Marco.
I can imagine the build quality and finish of the Prima Luna completely trashing the build quality and finish of the Croft from personal experience.
What's that got to do with how it sounds :scratch:
EDIT: Oops, I see Marco has addressed this whilst I was typing.
hifi_dave
12-12-2011, 17:42
Whilst I was debating whether to chip in to defend Glenn's products ( and maybe being accused of bias as a dealer ) I see that Joe and Marco have done a great job without me..:eyebrows:
Hi,
Thanks for all the posts so far.
It seems the people who like Croft gear really like it.
The build quality of my amps is excellent and upgraded to latest spec.
I'm trying to avoid box swapping making mistakes and regretting it, but I know this is part of the fun.
I'm still not sure if the Croft combo would out perform a Primaluna Prologue two.
Has anyone performed a direct comparison.
There are a lot of positive reviews for the Primaluna, might be worth having both?
Carl.
My pre and monoblocs are all glenns work .and the sound is soooo smooth:eyebrows:
jon
Carl not sure why you want to change to a Primaluna I think you would really regret this
Hi Carl,
I could also give a shout for Croft gear but will resist. You simply have to listen for yourself. My approach has always been to buy used (or very wisely) and try the gear in my own home and system before deciding. In this way you can generally play (for want of a better term, though this is just what it is !) about and move stuff on at little or no loss.
There is indeed a deal of support for Croft gear on the fine place that is AoS, and very well deserved it is too, but....(go back to the above) ;-)
What would be a tragedy is that you let your current gear go to fund something else and then it doesn't work out.
Oh, and the buying second hand bit doesn't actually work too well with Croft gear, there's not loads of it about !
And sorry for saying what i said about second hand, I know there are great dealers here :sofa:
Sorry, I'm on a caffiene roll here.....
Plus, great forums are great and this is one.....BUT bear in mind I could tell you how much i adore my Micro 25 and (past tense) 7R but this information would be worthless to you as I haven't heard the PL and even then at this sort of level I'd argue we're talking a significant degree off 'different' in terms of presentation as well as 'better', and even then it's all subjective.
Phew, rant over, I'd better come down with a beer !
There is indeed a deal of support for Croft gear on the fine place that is AoS, and very well deserved it is too...
And that's the thing, Ian: it's very well-deserved. We like Croft gear here, not because we're blinkered or brainwashed fanboys, but because some of us have used the equipment for years and experience tells us that it's superb - and in terms of 'sound-per-pound value', virtually unmatched - certainly so, in the land of tubes :)
Marco.
Sorry, I'm on a caffiene roll here.....
Plus, great forums are great and this is one.....BUT bear in mind I could tell you how much i adore my Micro 25 and (past tense) 7R but this information would be worthless to you as I haven't heard the PL and even then at this sort of level I'd argue we're talking a significant degree off 'different' in terms of presentation as well as 'better', and even then it's all subjective.
Phew, rant over, I'd better come down with a beer !
By your are on some good stuff their ian:lolsign:
jon
And that's the thing, Ian: it's very well-deserved. We like Croft gear here, not because we're blinkered or brainwashed fanboys, but because some of us have used the equipment for years and experience tells us that it's superb - and in terms of 'sound-per-pound value', virtually unmatched - certainly so, in the land of tubes :)
Marco.
+1;)
jon
Elephantears
12-12-2011, 19:15
I'd stick with the Crofts from my experience. I've only recently started flirting with valves, but with my Harbeth C7's I've heard a Primaluna Dialogue 2, a Leben 300XS, and various Crofts. The Primaluna with EL34's had a nice weighty and rich sound that was especially good with massed vocals. I was impressed, but it lacked a certain magic, and then it did something quite wrong with a favourite Coltrane piece that meant it was off my list. Then I heard the Leben, which a friend had got to replace the Primaluna. This had a special magic which I loved, but I only listened to undemanding vocal recordings. I felt that I had to follow EL84's, but needed more power, so this lead me to a Croft Series 5. That had some magic for me too, but ultimately I decided it still wasn't quite powerful enough. In the meantime I got to hear all the Croft pre-amps, as I've said on the other current Croft thread, and I thought they were fantastic. The one issue I had with Croft was the very high gain, but I believe this can be addressed by changing a resistor. The two pots I could learn to live with, but with the high gain I found it very difficult to get the balance correct, involving minute faffing to equalise. So the gain would have to be adjusted if I was going to go with a Croft pre. I can't imagine finding any other pre as good for those prices.
And that's the thing, Ian: it's very well-deserved. We like Croft gear here, not because we're blinkered or brainwashed fanboys, but because some of us have used the equipment for years and experience tells us that it's superb - and in terms of 'sound-per-pound value', virtually unmatched - certainly so, in the land of tubes :)
Marco.
Absolutely, wasn't having a pop ;-)
Christ I'm losing sleep over selling my Quads to get the series 7 back !
but it lacked a certain magic
And that is what it's all about, you lose that and you've wasted time, effort, money and emotion. A bit like a crap marriage !
Right, I'm off to drink beer.
I'd stick with the Crofts from my experience. I've only recently started flirting with valves, but with my Harbeth C7's I've heard a Primaluna Dialogue 2, a Leben 300XS, and various Crofts. The Primaluna with EL34's had a nice weighty and rich sound that was especially good with massed vocals. I was impressed, but it lacked a certain magic, and then it did something quite wrong with a favourite Coltrane piece that meant it was off my list. Then I heard the Leben, which a friend had got to replace the Primaluna. This had a special magic which I loved, but I only listened to undemanding vocal recordings. I felt that I had to follow EL84's, but needed more power, so this lead me to a Croft Series 5. That had some magic for me too, but ultimately I decided it still wasn't quite powerful enough. In the meantime I got to hear all the Croft pre-amps, as I've said on the other current Croft thread, and I thought they were fantastic. The one issue I had with Croft was the very high gain, but I believe this can be addressed by changing a resistor. The two pots I could learn to live with, but with the high gain I found it very difficult to get the balance correct, involving minute faffing to equalise. So the gain would have to be adjusted if I was going to go with a Croft pre. I can't imagine finding any other pre as good for those prices.
Andrew i have a dac with a volume control witch i have started to play around very handy ..... i have the twin volume set on the pre :eyebrows:
jon
technobear
12-12-2011, 19:38
I've heard the Primaluna Prologue Two and whilst it's not bad, there is no way I would swap my Croft Syntegra for one.
BTW, you should replace the volume pots in your pre-amp with good quality stepped attenuators if this has not already been done. That will shock you! :eyebrows:
Glenn doesn't like them for some reason. Trust me (or trust Marco) you will get an object lesson in the meanings of the words "transparent" and "quiet".
I've heard the Primaluna Prologue Two and whilst it's not bad, there is no way I would swap my Croft Syntegra for one.
BTW, you should replace the volume pots in your pre-amp with good quality stepped attenuators if this has not already been done. That will shock you! :eyebrows:
Glenn doesn't like them for some reason. Trust me (or trust Marco) you will get an object lesson in the meanings of the words "transparent" and "quiet".
Does it make that much of a difference Chris?:eyebrows:
jon
technobear
12-12-2011, 19:58
Does it make that much of a difference Chris?:eyebrows:
It shocked me!
It took a leap of faith to invest about £150 in a stepped attenuator and also a very good input selector but I was quite gobsmacked by the result.
It was as plain as day through the Zu Druids (everything is) but even sitting here listening to these 24 year old Celestion DL6's, I can still hear that something special is going on here.
It shocked me!
It took a leap of faith to invest about £150 in a stepped attenuator and also a very good input selector but I was quite gobsmacked by the result.
It was as plain as day through the Zu Druids (everything is) but even sitting here listening to these 24 year old Celestion DL6's, I can still hear that something special is going on here.
Thank's for the reply chris;)
jon
I'm not suggesting that one needs to "do a Marco" on everything inside a Croft preamp - I mean, the standard circuit with good basic components works so well I believe, but earlier tonight I was wondering just how good My ARC SP14 was - what with Wonder-Caps etc as standard. The "feel" of the thing was amazing and, although my first Series 4PP was pretty well as good sonically, it certainly lacked the "feel." I'm so glad to have my current one and now I know where it's slight weakness lies (in bass extension and "weight"), I KNOW Glenn can make recommendations accordingly.
What all the cr@p above means is that if you feel like replacing the standard pots with some precision stepped attenuators, then bloomin' well do it, but do it nicely when soldering please. Not sure what value pot Glenn uses these days, but DACT make a 500K one for not silly money (well under £150 I think) and GoldPoint have been recommended too, although their made-up ones (sealed and using SMD devices as good or better than Mills resistors etc. I understand) only go to 250K..
As for Prima Luna, if it sounds warm and full toned, it'll be far too much with Harbeths (I think I know who it was who returned some SHL5's instead of replacing his amp - he used to own c7's too if it's who I think it is..).
A Series 4 preamp ought to go to Glenn for updating, as he can tweak the phono stage and maybe do some supply updates too, to bring the basic design more up to date. Great that a twenty year old product can be sorted this way.
I'm not suggesting that one needs to "do a Marco" on everything inside a Croft preamp - I mean, the standard circuit with good basic components works so well I believe, but earlier tonight I was wondering just how good My ARC SP14 was - what with Wonder-Caps etc as standard. The "feel" of the thing was amazing and, although my first Series 4PP was pretty well as good sonically, it certainly lacked the "feel." I'm so glad to have my current one and now I know where it's slight weakness lies (in bass extension and "weight"), I KNOW Glenn can make recommendations accordingly.
What all the cr@p above means is that if you feel like replacing the standard pots with some precision stepped attenuators, then bloomin' well do it, but do it nicely when soldering please. Not sure what value pot Glenn uses these days, but DACT make a 500K one for not silly money (well under £150 I think) and GoldPoint have been recommended too, although their made-up ones (sealed and using SMD devices as good or better than Mills resistors etc. I understand) only go to 250K..
As for Prima Luna, if it sounds warm and full toned, it'll be far too much with Harbeths (I think I know who it was who returned some SHL5's instead of replacing his amp - he used to own c7's too if it's who I think it is..).
A Series 4 preamp ought to go to Glenn for updating, as he can tweak the phono stage and maybe do some supply updates too, to bring the basic design more up to date. Great that a twenty year old product can be sorted this way.
It's ok dave i will be leaving well alone:eyebrows:
jon
Thanks for the posts,
Definitely sounds like I have some decent amps.
I'll listen to a Primaluna just to see.
Stepped attenuators, is this worth while?
Currently building a pair of Zu Druid clones, seems Croft will work well with them, if I build them well.
Carl.
technobear
13-12-2011, 13:05
Currently building a pair of Zu Druid clones, seems Croft will work well with them, if I build them well.
I don't want to derail this thread so perhaps you will start a thread about your speaker build in the DIY section :)
I'd be interested to see what you are using for the wideband driver as it won't be a Zu.
Hi,
I'll start a thread on my Druid Clones.
Carl.
sq225917
13-12-2011, 17:45
I read this thread title as kraft vs Primula.
Imagine my disappointment to find it free of cheese based spread products.
Ali Tait
13-12-2011, 17:54
For steppers, you could do a lot worse than the HiFi Collective ones, great VFM IMHO, the one using Takman carbon resistors -
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/glasshouse-takman-stepped-attenuator-p-4601.html
The Seiden selector switches are excellent too.
Hi,
Thanks for the information regarding stepped attenuators, they look good.
Carl.
technobear
13-12-2011, 19:20
I went for the Seiden switch with Takman metal film resistors as I wanted transparency rather than a rosy glow - the valves glow well enough on their own :)
I chose an Elma for the selector switch.
Stick with your Crofts Carl,you cant go wrong and they will last long time and Glenn can allways work his magic on them :)
Hi,
Thankyou for the advice,
Pics of my current system now in welcome bit.
Cheers Carl.
I read this thread title as kraft vs Primula.
Imagine my disappointment to find it free of cheese based spread products.
:lolsign:
Since Glenn's product front panels are now placed in front of the main chassis (so the knobs appear recessed), perhaps he could consider making some bespoke "posh" ones for those more obliged to bling-fi. I mean, the only real regular criticism of his products has been the basic visuals and styling of much of his work (I'm leaving the twin volume controls out of it and a pair of precision stepped attenuators would answer that anyway).
Bluedroog
14-12-2011, 09:58
I read this thread title as kraft vs Primula.
Imagine my disappointment to find it free of cheese based spread products.
Or broken promises and mass redundancies.... :steam:
Since Glenn's product front panels are now placed in front of the main chassis (so the knobs appear recessed), perhaps he could consider making some bespoke "posh" ones for those more obliged to bling-fi. I mean, the only real regular criticism of his products has been the basic visuals and styling of much of his work (I'm leaving the twin volume controls out of it and a pair of precision stepped attenuators would answer that anyway).
Nah - Croft is for real men - there are no styling cues on a JCB Excavator now are their? :)
You forgot the lack of a remote control capability for us "lard arses" :lol:
You forgot the lack of a remote control capability for us "lard arses" :lol:
No need for a remote - only use one source (vinyl :eyebrows:) and one volume setting - LOUD :lol:
StanleyB
14-12-2011, 19:47
The Croft Omi-Seti is perhaps one power amp to consider. Here is a pic of the Gator with Silmic/Elma/Vishay caps mod fitted inside a Caiman being tested for substantial and audible sonic performance over the standard Gatorized Caiman. I borrowed the only existing Croft Omi-Seti for the tests.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/omi.jpg
Unfortunately I couldn't afford its price tag so I had to give it back afterwards :(. I am probably going to get caned for showing the Croft off for the first time ahead of any official manufacturer's notification of its existence (which is allegedly clouded in mystery). So just forget that you saw it under a Caiman as soon as you have read this :).
That's a nice looking amp!
When is it likely to be available, can you share any information about it.
Thanks Carl.
Hi,
I'm new to the forum and have noticed the Caiman, is this a dac?
I have a reasonable cd player, but the mac book itunes thing seems popular.
Carl.
StanleyB
14-12-2011, 20:32
That's a nice looking amp!
When is it likely to be available, can you share any information about it.
Thanks Carl.
I have absolutely no idea when it will be available. I only borrowed it to test and improve the performance of one of my own product. What I can say is that I have never heard a better power amp for a very long time. Mind you, I only have a set of NS1000M and Thiel CS2.2 speakers. So someone with more high-end speakers would be in a better position to give a broader insight into the Omi-Seti performance.
The Croft Omi-Seti is perhaps one power amp to consider. Here is a pic of the Gator with Silmic/Elma/Vishay caps mod fitted inside a Caiman being tested for substantial and audible sonic performance over the standard Gatorized Caiman. I borrowed the only existing Croft Omi-Seti for the tests.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/omi.jpg
Unfortunately I couldn't afford its price tag so I had to give it back afterwards :(. I am probably going to get caned for showing the Croft off for the first time ahead of any official manufacturer's notification of its existence (which is allegedly clouded in mystery). So just forget that you saw it under a Caiman as soon as you have read this :).
Nice one stan:eyebrows:
jon
StanleyB
14-12-2011, 20:34
I'm new to the forum and have noticed the Caiman, is this a dac?
Yes it is, but the one in the picture is the limited edition Gatorized Caiman.
I have absolutely no idea when it will be available. I only borrowed it to test and improve the performance of one of my own product. What I can say is that I have never heard a better power amp for a very long time. Mind you, I only have a set of NS1000M and Thiel CS2.2 speakers. So someone with more high-end speakers would be in a better position to give a broader insight into the Omi-Seti performance.
Yes stan but you probably have the only one;)
jon
Ali Tait
14-12-2011, 20:37
I went for the Seiden switch with Takman metal film resistors as I wanted transparency rather than a rosy glow - the valves glow well enough on their own :)
I chose an Elma for the selector switch.
Have to beg to differ there, I've heard both and the metal films sound a bit hard and glassy to my ears. The carbon sound much more natural and organic, certainly no rosy glow.
Reid Malenfant
14-12-2011, 20:39
Yes it is, but the one in the picture is the limited edition Gatorized Caiman.
Which is very limited as it's not even available yet :eyebrows: Just like the amp...
Stan, you really won't get very many speakers that are more revealing than the NS1000Ms. You'd need to spend silly money to better them imo ;)
StanleyB
14-12-2011, 20:41
Yes stan but you probably have the only one;)
I have been accused of association by mentioning that I use Croft for testing, but what is man supposed to do when he is offered the chance to test one prototype with another? I am sure many would jump at the opportunity as well ;).
Stan, you really won't get very many speakers that are more revealing than the NS1000Ms. You'd need to spend silly money to better them imo ;)
I think that was the infamous Beresford sarcasm there, Mark! ;)
I have been accused of association by mentioning that I use Croft for testing, but what is man supposed to do when he is offered the chance to test one prototype with another? I am sure many would jump at the opportunity as well ;).
Pic's as well stan what can one say:eyebrows:and glenn has some of your dacs;)
jon
Glenn had better watch it. A dealer TELLING you he wants a big expensive amp is one thing. Being able to SELL the bloody things in quantity is another.
hifi_dave
14-12-2011, 22:53
The Omi-Seti is a design from approx six years ago and it had a retail price of £20K. It is no longer in production, so I'll stop saving..:doh:
StanleyB
14-12-2011, 23:30
The Omi-Seti is a design from approx six years ago and it had a retail price of £20K.:eek:. It sounded every penny's worth of its price tag. Maybe I should put in a bid for it at £5K :lol:.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.